Kidderminster & Redditch
see
http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2012/06/first-seeks-buyers-for-seven-bus-operations/
I wonder if Rotala will move in to buy the redditch operations
Quote from: Ash on June 29, 2012, 10:25:29 PM
I wonder if Rotala will move in to buy the redditch operations
I would have thought Rotala would be interested in Redditch & possibly Kidderminster
Also EYMS owned Whittles may also be interested in the Kidderminster operation to add to its own routes in the town
It's amazing just how much the Redditch & Kidderminster allocations have shrunk over the past few years
Would the MMC block any takeover attempts or impose undertakings by either Rotala (Redditch) or Whittles (Kidderminster)? both operators could end up with a monopoly on those towns if successful
I'm assuming NX wouldn't be interested in either of the above, as they don't have the scale
The list of operations up for sale by First is still some way off the £100 Million of disposals they are making
Of course it would be perfect for Rotala to take over in Redditch and EYMS to take over in Kidderminster as once again you would have a proper network of services where you would only need one ticket to get around. Alas the Competition authorities might take a very expensive and time consuming look at such purchases due to the loss of competition, even though such a move would surely be in the passenger interest.
Let's throw this one into the ring: Arriva. No current presence in that particular area, plus they've just made a move north of Kidderminster with the Centro contracts around the Dudley area.
Quote from: Mr Wood on June 30, 2012, 11:28:05 AM
Let's throw this one into the ring: Arriva. No current presence in that particular area, plus they've just made a move north of Kidderminster with the Centro contracts around the Dudley area.
Arriva is a good call, particularly if they are intent of weakening Rotala's Diamond bus business further
Quote from: Winston on June 30, 2012, 11:51:09 AM
Quote from: Mr Wood on June 30, 2012, 11:28:05 AM
Let's throw this one into the ring: Arriva. No current presence in that particular area, plus they've just made a move north of Kidderminster with the Centro contracts around the Dudley area.
Arriva is a good call, particularly if they are intent of weakening Rotala's Diamond bus business further
Yes and Kidderminster in particular is nicely sited near to the Bridgnorth garage who already operate the 297 between the two towns.
Quote from: D10 on June 30, 2012, 01:22:27 PM
Quote from: Winston on June 30, 2012, 11:51:09 AM
Quote from: Mr Wood on June 30, 2012, 11:28:05 AM
Let's throw this one into the ring: Arriva. No current presence in that particular area, plus they've just made a move north of Kidderminster with the Centro contracts around the Dudley area.
Arriva is a good call, particularly if they are intent of weakening Rotala's Diamond bus business further
Yes and Kidderminster in particular is nicely sited near to the Bridgnorth garage who already operate the 297 between the two towns.
I guess NX could still potentially be interested in RH & KR, if they felt Arriva were looking to increase their presence in the surrounding area & could potentially become a greater threat in the NXWM territory. Thus blocking any Arriva plans by taking control of those operations, even though they don't fit with NXWM's high frequency / urban criteria
What about some of the other areas chester to arriva whom are already there and wigan, stagecoach for northampton who like arriva are a big player there. The midlands is an intresting one rotala is a good one for redditch but kiddeminster who knows I feel rotala would screw it up too many poles just like black diamond. Arriva would be better but do not rule out whittles as another post has mentioned a well known local company with a big group EYMS running it. Would Mr Peddle be interested in it?
There's always the D&G bus group that own Midland to consider, they recently bought South Lancs Travel. They could be interested in KR?
Problem with Northampton going to Stagecoach & Chester to Arriva, those operators would have a monopoly on those towns, I'm not sure the MMC would allow it.
I think Wigan being put up for sale has surprised a few, one that I expected to be on the list & isn't is First Devon & Cornwall, plus I thought possibly parts of Eastern Counties & Essex be on there, but with Go-Ahead building a presence in those areas, First may not want to help Go-ahead strengthen it business.
Also First Group, blamed Scotland for its declining profits, none of those businesses are up for sale.
I believe First in Sheffield (Olive Grove) could have been on the disposal list, but I now understand that they have been given a stay of execution & are attempting to turn its fortunes around. Stagecoach Sheffield are currently wiping the floor with First on a number of counts
true but arriva have a monopoly on most of the staffordshire towns except stoke area likewise stadgecoach have a monopoly in rugby
Rotala for Chester as an absolute definite-they like former municipals, Arriva for Redditch as Rotala wouldnt be able to buy it anyway, EYMS-Whittle-for Kidderminster, Stagecoach for Northampton and I imagine Wigan will raise a lot and possibly they will sell further bits of London to raise the money.
Quote from: Peter123 on July 01, 2012, 11:58:32 AM
Rotala for Chester as an absolute definite-they like former municipals, Arriva for Redditch as Rotala wouldnt be able to buy it anyway, EYMS-Whittle-for Kidderminster, Stagecoach for Northampton and I imagine Wigan will raise a lot and possibly they will sell further bits of London to raise the money.
Remember Rotala have got to find the money to buy anything. To buy Preston (there only ex municipal) they borrowed against the value of the premises and fleet, I would imagine that would be a lot harder with Chester.
Why do you think Rotala wouldn't be able to buy Redditch, but Stagecoach would be able to buy Northampton and EYMS Kidderminster? There is no logic there at all!
Much that Stagecoach buying Northampton probably would be good for passengers having a unified network the interfering busy bodies at the MMC or whatever they are called this week would be having fits, the same as they did when Stagecoach bought Preston.
I reckon there will at least one really big surprise.
You reckon NX will try for anything Tony they have not tried any thing for a while on what I know or is that what they would like annoys the MMC
Most likely to be Arriva, to consolidate their network. Not really that much of a customer base in Kiddy. They have gotten used to a patchy bus network in the town, and only during the daytime mon to sat. Plus Whittles provide effective competition.
Whittle will be able to buy kidderminster as the MMC and OFT are ok with smaller groups buying things. Also, Johnsons could buy Redditch tho do diamond honestly want Redditch-how would they be able to make a profit where First failed. Stagecoach will persuade them in Northampton that it cant survive on its own and anyway its only 30 buses. Rotala will be fine to buy things-they are a profitable company and are one of the parties who is extremely interested in the sale of these bus companies. It should definitely not be ruled out and I would predict it buying at least one company in this series of sales.
Also, apparently Bristol are also on the market and the list given earlier is certainly not exhaustive-theyll sell anything at the right price. Which bits do we reckon RATP and Go-Ahead are interested in? My bets would be Chester, Wigan and Northampton-which could be made to work with some investment.
I have a feeling this thread will not die out anytime soon tho!! ;D
Quote from: Peter123 on July 01, 2012, 01:12:42 PM
Whittle will be able to buy kidderminster as the MMC and OFT are ok with smaller groups buying things. Also, Johnsons could buy Redditch tho do diamond honestly want Redditch-how would they be able to make a profit where First failed. Stagecoach will persuade them in Northampton that it cant survive on its own and anyway its only 30 buses. Rotala will be fine to buy things-they are a profitable company and are one of the parties who is extremely interested in the sale of these bus companies. It should definitely not be ruled out and I would predict it buying at least one company in this series of sales.
Just because they are a profitable company doesn't mean they would be able to 'buy things' and how do you know they are 'extremely interested' has they issued a statement to the stock exchange? I think not.
Rotala are a profitable company with some quite large debts, nothing wrong with that, Stagecoach & National Express are similar, but to buy another operation would mean they would have to raise the money to do that. They already have PrestonBus 'mortgaged' to pay for the purchase. They also owe their major shareholders some quite large sums they have loaned and profits will be servicing these debts. To raise the capital to purchase anyone else they would have to borrow money against the assetts (as per PrestonBus) and you would need a lender willing to do that against Redditch (not as easy as Preston specially the way the banks are now). You could issue more shares, but you have to find someone willing to buy those shares and it also devalues the existing shares, so may not please existing shareholders. You could issue bonds, as NatEx did to manage their debt, but you have to be able to guarantee a return. They could borrow more money of the shareholders, who they already owe large amounts to, or you could just do a straight bank loan, not cheap even if they are willing to do it!
I am not saying Rotala cannot or will not buy one or both of Kidderminster and Redditch, just stating it is may not be as easy as you seem to be saying it is.
AIM-listed Rotala are expected to take a close look at First's 'for sale' list and they are described as fast expanding if you look at the link at the top of the page. I dont think thinking about it that theyd want Redditch or Kidderminster. Not prime bus territory and I wouldnt be surprised if they ceased operations in Redditch anyway. Theyd be more interested in Chester, Wigan or Northampton, particularly when they mentioned that the north would be a hub for regional expansion after they bought Preston. I think that they are the real ones to watch and if theyre careful, wont face the MMC's wrath. And this leads me on to a point. Dont you just hate the MMC? Theyd rather see no buses than one company with a dominance of the market. Whilst this is not ideal, surely it is better than no buses and the local authority having to foot the bill for lots of supported services?
Quote from: Winston on June 30, 2012, 03:19:26 PM
I think Wigan being put up for sale has surprised a few, one that I expected to be on the list & isn't is First Devon & Cornwall,
I was in Cornwall recently and the trend of the past few years where First conceded large parts of the county (particularly mid and north Cornwall) to Western Greyhound seems to have been stemmed, even though they are still using buses of very dubious vintage. First seem to be making an effort to expand services having outbid Western Greyhound for a number of County Council tendered services, while there seems to be some aggression between the two companies with Western Greyhound having been banished from some bus stations (St Austell and Plymouth being two). In addition, First have adopted very aggressive tactics against Go Ahead on Plymouth area services with their introduction of the Ugobus network.
Quote from: Peter123 on July 01, 2012, 01:33:04 PM
Also, apparently Bristol are also on the market and the list given earlier is certainly not exhaustive-theyll sell anything at the right price.
If this is true, then about half a million people will shortly be organising street parties. However, Bristol City Council have recently declared war on First and have announced their intention to either set up a TfL style quality partnership or introduce an ITA in the Bristol/Bath/Weston area - something that could frighten First away. It will also be interesting to find out which part of First Somerset and Avon is up for sale. My money when I first read the article was on services in the southern part of the county (the old Western/Southern National services) rather than the old Bristol Omnibus services. However, if the above is true, I could be wrong.
Dose NX still own Travel London or did the sell up? if thay did sell up london cart see then bying First out
Quote from: matty matt go on July 01, 2012, 04:16:52 PM
Dose NX still own Travel London or did the sell up? if thay did sell up london cart see then bying First out
It was sold to Abellio in 2009.
Quote from: Tony on July 01, 2012, 12:11:21 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on July 01, 2012, 11:58:32 AM
Rotala for Chester as an absolute definite-they like former municipals, Arriva for Redditch as Rotala wouldnt be able to buy it anyway, EYMS-Whittle-for Kidderminster, Stagecoach for Northampton and I imagine Wigan will raise a lot and possibly they will sell further bits of London to raise the money.
Remember Rotala have got to find the money to buy anything. To buy Preston (there only ex municipal) they borrowed against the value of the premises and fleet, I would imagine that would be a lot harder with Chester.
Why do you think Rotala wouldn't be able to buy Redditch, but Stagecoach would be able to buy Northampton and EYMS Kidderminster? There is no logic there at all!
Much that Stagecoach buying Northampton probably would be good for passengers having a unified network the interfering busy bodies at the MMC or whatever they are called this week would be having fits, the same as they did when Stagecoach bought Preston.
I reckon there will at least one really big surprise.
Rotala in the past have simply issued more shares to raise funds for acquisitions / expansion, however this dilutes existing shareholders holdings every time they do that
Quote from: Roy on July 01, 2012, 03:17:17 PM
It will also be interesting to find out which part of First Somerset and Avon is up for sale. My money when I first read the article was on services in the southern part of the county (the old Western/Southern National services) rather than the old Bristol Omnibus services. However, if the above is true, I could be wrong.
I thought it meant Somerset as it is now - Bridgwater and Taunton plus perhaps a bit more. But if First got an offer it couldn't refuse for some other area, just as Stagecoach did for London from Macquarie some years back, who knows?
It will be fascinating to see how it all pans out - I wouldn't like to try to predict who will get what at this stage!
First Group are going to be under even more pressure to find suitable buyers / achieve acceptable sale prices, as Stagecoach's proposed acquisition of North Devon (Barnstable) has today been referred to the MMC by the OFT. As a result Stagecoach have reportedly pulled out of the agreed deal,
http://www.oft.gov.uk/?itemId=876309
Quote from: Winston on July 10, 2012, 05:41:22 PM
First Group are going to be under even more pressure to find suitable buyers / achieve acceptable sale prices, as Stagecoach's proposed acquisition of North Devon (Barnstable) has today been referred to the MMC by the OFT. As a result Stagecoach have reportedly pulled out of the agreed deal,
http://www.oft.gov.uk/?itemId=876309
Yes, Stagecoach have definitely pulled out, saying they cannot justify spending more money and management time on it - see http://otp.investis.com/clients/uk/stagecoach/rns/regulatory-story.aspx?cid=273&newsid=256311. The OFT had said earlier today that the Competition Commission was expected to report by 24 December - a full 9 months after the sale/purchase agreement was announced.
The OFT decision is a serious problem for First - it makes selling to a competitor pretty much impossible. It looks like this effectively kisses goodbye to Diamond buying Redditch or Whittles buying Kidderminster.
Quote from: Justin Tyme on July 10, 2012, 10:38:36 PM
Quote from: Winston on July 10, 2012, 05:41:22 PM
First Group are going to be under even more pressure to find suitable buyers / achieve acceptable sale prices, as Stagecoach's proposed acquisition of North Devon (Barnstable) has today been referred to the MMC by the OFT. As a result Stagecoach have reportedly pulled out of the agreed deal,
http://www.oft.gov.uk/?itemId=876309
Yes, Stagecoach have definitely pulled out, saying they cannot justify spending more money and management time on it - see http://otp.investis.com/clients/uk/stagecoach/rns/regulatory-story.aspx?cid=273&newsid=256311. The OFT had said earlier today that the Competition Commission was expected to report by 24 December - a full 9 months after the sale/purchase agreement was announced.
The OFT decision is a serious problem for First - it makes selling to a competitor pretty much impossible. It looks like this effectively kisses goodbye to Diamond buying Redditch or Whittles buying Kidderminster.
With North Devon as an example, who else is going to buy a rural operation currently locked head to head in competition with Stagecoach, there's now talk that First may simply decide to close the Barnstable operation & walk away as in Scotland East if First did decide to go down that route, Stagecoach will simply just register withdrawn services and get First network for free. First will have similar issues in Northampton also.
It looks as though First Group as seriously going to struggle to achieve the target £100 million asset disposals without selling anything that generates sizable profits
Would the OfT allow a partnership eg Arriva and Centrbus aka Centrebus Holdings but replace Arriva with say Stagey for the Northampton sale? Or even a sort of High Peaks style merger/sell off!
The main question is would it work and would it be worth it??
Wyvern I could see Arriva, Abellio, Go Ahead or even National Express trying to bid for parts.
I'd love to understand the criteria for these OFT referrals and decisions....why for instance were Arriva allowed to acquire Stevensons all those years ago? If the criteria is that there has to be another significant operator or owner in the same area as the proposed purchaser, the industry is in serious trouble. It is the OFT that have allowed 20 to 30 post deregulation companies to end up in the hands of 3 or 4 so what do you do if only one of those companies wishes to make an acquisition? You can't force uninterested parties to buy!
This was always going to happen eventually, it has been coming for years. What we effectively have in many areas of the country is territory that won't support multiple operator activity, and that was always going to be the problem with extensive deregulation and privatisation, it's just that it's taken 25 years to reach fruition...
I bet the local authorities are bricking themselves that First deregister, leaving the very real scenario that Stagecoach register a presence on the lucrative corridors and leave the councils to tender everything else...in these times of austerity you can bet they will only cover a shadow of what's out there now. Stagecoach can effectively hold them to ransom without having to pay anything out for an acquisition either.
Who pays for this? The passenger, who ends up with a poorer choice of services at best or no service at worst, plus a rise in council tax. Thatcher's legacy has at last arrived.
Quote from: Tomjusttom on July 10, 2012, 11:15:35 PM
Would the OfT allow a partnership eg Arriva and Centrbus aka Centrebus Holdings but replace Arriva with say Stagey for the Northampton sale? Or even a sort of High Peaks style merger/sell off!
The main question is would it work and would it be worth it??
Wyvern I could see Arriva, Abellio, Go Ahead or even National Express trying to bid for parts.
NX only seem interested in high frequency urban areas in the UK, if the whole of Wyvern was for sale which included the profitable Worcester operation then who knows??? NX could look to acquire the business to prevent another operator i.e. Arriva from increasing its presence in the surrounding areas
The oft are just causing problems everywhere yes there needs to be competition but if no one else wants what is for sale why stop it. First might just have to close up and go so a potential buyer will put on replacements so a monopoly is going to happen regardless.
It seems irritating that the OFT and MMC always seem to intervene. Bet First are also annoyed-tbh to raise the £100 mil theyd be better to sell in London where MMC etc dont care
Has anyone heard anymore on the proposed sale of First Wyvern Redditch & Kidderminster operations? As all seems to have gone quiet since that list of subsidiaries for sale was leaked to the press
Also of interest is an article on the website below which suggests not only FDC's Barnstable operation was for sale and could have included Plymouth as well, but this deal appears to have fallen through. Stagecoach as well? It also suggests other operations in Devon & Cornwall, Somerset & Dorset may be sale, so of which didn't feature on that leaked list.
http://www.omnibuses.blogspot.co.uk/
All seems to be up in the air Winston, I was driving back up from Cornwall on the M5 yesterday and around the Exeter area I passed about 8 - 10 Stagecoach Enviros heading the other way, all with Stagecoach logo but fleetnames painted over in white, so seems they're dragging vehicles in from Bluebird or somewhere already to start extra operations.
Whittle seem to be getting ahead of any potential sale of the Kidderminster operations by increasing their own services. After increasing their services to Bewdley to every 20 minutes from July, from the 15th October, they will be running every 15 mins to Stourport by way of the 3 and 192, thus matching First's 3/X3 on this corridor:
http://www.worcestershire.gov.uk/chym/FileHandlers/BusServiceTimetable.pdf?ID=1439
seems the oft are being a little more sensible and thinking of peoples jobs not just oh no one big bad bus company taking all the money as they have provisionally accpeted the sale of arriva scotland to mcgills (see latest buses mag)
Just wondering about this..
for all that has been said about selling some bits off, not much has happened.... just a few fleet changes...
Northampton have S reg Scanias now, two gemini's and the old Citybuses K-URP ones.
Leicester have a few buses transferred too, one route has the frequency upped, my local route is lowered along with the odd other... things seem to be ok on the outside????
but what is going on? I mean Leicester haven't had the new livery yet. where is it? the other areas have it! So I think something is cooking?
Nothing seems to have been publicly announced, which isn't surprising really.
I have to say though that I was in Redditch last week one day and I noticed at least 2 First drivers had no uniform on at all, and were driving in jeans and casual tops. So I wondered if First had stopped uniform issues there if there was no future for their depot in the town?
According to a couple of posts on the midlandred.net forum by two different reputable members both KR & RH operations are understood to be being sold/have been sold to NX Group/NXWM
Elsewhere on the GM buses yahoo group it is reported a big announcement is expected for staff at First Manchester's Wigan depot, which is many believe to be an announcement regarding its sale by First Group, whether the above are all connected remains to be seen. But it finally appears things are starting to move regarding First Groups asset disposals
There is planned to be an official announcement on the 16th October ... 67312 and 67256 have been moved to Worcester ready for scrap as they are not part of the deal with 67245 and 67247 looking set to follow. Apparently things are to be run seperate from NXWM ... Please can i keep my E300s? :-[
Quote from: jc on October 03, 2012, 01:39:52 AM
There is planned to be an official announcement on the 16th October ... 67312 and 67256 have been moved to Worcester ready for scrap as they are not part of the deal with 67245 and 67247 looking set to follow. Apparently things are to be run seperate from NXWM ... Please can i keep my E300s? :-[
Thanks for the confirmation jc, interesting times ahead..... Roll on the 16th October. I would have thought that the E300's would be included in the deal being 8 yrs old and non-standard within First Group
I had originally thought that RH may have been of interest to NX but not KR, however, with investment in the fleet, improved service provisions & fare initiatives, both garages have the potential to grow significantly
I presume you wouldn't have any idea about the announcement expected for Wigan depot staff in the near future?
I have no idea about Wigan sorry, but it would be ideal for Stagecoach ... but as an outsider i have heard Rotala O.o
Ok so what will the 51 buses NX have bought be, besides the Presidents?
And if they get any enviros i can see them moving to replace mercs and others in Birmingham and Cov. I cant see what first are selling for the two depots as a fleet as the fleet is a mish mash of buses ranaging from fully DDA to just step less entry. I ask as 67312 has gone to Worcester so that limits what darts get moved as i cant see Nx wanting darts that are like 67312. And if i'm looking at it you could get rid of a batch of enviros say 67631-51 (20 in there) and 67600-04 (5) (25 so far about half of the 51), then what?
And if they have bought RH and KD one has to ask why them and not say Glasgow or Bath or somewhere where they can make a hit.
Quote from: jc on October 03, 2012, 01:39:52 AM
There is planned to be an official announcement on the 16th October ... 67312 and 67256 have been moved to Worcester ready for scrap as they are not part of the deal with 67245 and 67247 looking set to follow. Apparently things are to be run seperate from NXWM ... Please can i keep my E300s? :-[
Suddenly sees a load of b6les waiting outside Redditch depot with e300s heading out to Pensnett lol only joking
This don't help first
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1512d88c-0995-11e2-a5a9-00144feabdc0.html#axzz289PFlBZE
Quote from: tank90 on October 03, 2012, 05:02:52 AM
Ok so what will the 51 buses NX have bought be, besides the Presidents?
And if they get any enviros i can see them moving to replace mercs and others in Birmingham and Cov. I cant see what first are selling for the two depots as a fleet as the fleet is a mish mash of buses ranaging from fully DDA to just step less entry. I ask as 67312 has gone to Worcester so that limits what darts get moved as i cant see Nx wanting darts that are like 67312. And if i'm looking at it you could get rid of a batch of enviros say 67631-51 (20 in there) and 67600-04 (5) (25 so far about half of the 51), then what?
And if they have bought RH and KD one has to ask why them and not say Glasgow or Bath or somewhere where they can make a hit.
I would have thought that any sale would include the buses currently allocated to both depots, it was suggested that KR could lose the handful of 54 reg Dart SLFs & it appears that no step entry single / double deckers are included as they are being replaced by additional Tridents from Essex. I would take NXWM long to standardise a fleet of 51 if they desired, they currently have double the number of buses in reserve. If they do intend on growing / making a success of both operations new fleet investment needs to be the order of the day or good quality second hand vehicles
Doubt the Enviro's if included in the sale would move within NXWM as they are none standard, better to keep them at Redditch where engineers are experienced with them
Quote from: Tomjusttom on October 03, 2012, 08:54:27 AM
This don't help first
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1512d88c-0995-11e2-a5a9-00144feabdc0.html#axzz289PFlBZE
The other thing that is seriously going to hurt First is the cancellation of the WCML franchise, I think First were banking on the revenue / profit from that to reduce their debts, hence why Firsts bid was so high, the list of Uk bus operations for sale may just have increased to include some of the tastier more urban operations that would fit with NXWM profile,
The Deal should include;
67600/2/4/31-46 (Currently at Redditch - 19 Buses)
32857/60/2/77/81/2/4-6/94 (Currently at Redditch - 10 Buses)
67324, 67246, 67250, 67238, 67239, 67244, 67255, 61013, 61016 (Currently Floating Allocation - 9 Buses)
42889-91 (ADL Darts (Personally would expect these to have moved to Worcester) Currently at Kidderminster - 3 Buses)
43475, 42180, 42402-6, 42641, 42455 (Variety of Darts Currently at Kidderminster - 9 Buses)
I could be wrong with several of these, 42889-91 i would expect to move to Worcester with them being the 'better darts', The Lances make up the 'big bus' fleet at Kidderminster so i would assume they would be included in the deal unless First Group want to give up some of there newer buses to swap with them.
Quote from: jc on October 03, 2012, 03:51:33 PM
The Deal should include;
67600/2/4/31-46 (Currently at Redditch - 19 Buses)
32857/60/2/77/81/2/4-6/94 (Currently at Redditch - 10 Buses)
67324, 67246, 67250, 67238, 67239, 67244, 67255, 61013, 61016 (Currently Floating Allocation - 9 Buses)
42889-91 (ADL Darts (Personally would expect these to have moved to Worcester) Currently at Kidderminster - 3 Buses)
43475, 42180, 42402-6, 42641, 42455 (Variety of Darts Currently at Kidderminster - 9 Buses)
I could be wrong with several of these, 42889-91 i would expect to move to Worcester with them being the 'better darts', The Lances make up the 'big bus' fleet at Kidderminster so i would assume they would be included in the deal unless First Group want to give up some of there newer buses to swap with them.
That's JC, that's pretty much what I thought would be sold with the businesses.
Just out of interest, do you have any idea what the maximum capacity both KR & RH can hold?
It would depend on the size of the buses being used, back in the day Redditch could hold about 60+ Merc 608D's (I feel old now!) but with Enviros and Deckers you could get about 45-50 in there. Kidderminster can hold about 40, its a purpose built garage there.
Quote from: jc on October 03, 2012, 04:20:33 PM
It would depend on the size of the buses being used, back in the day Redditch could hold about 60+ Merc 608D's (I feel old now!) but with Enviros and Deckers you could get about 45-50 in there. Kidderminster can hold about 40, its a purpose built garage there.
Thanks JC, I thought Kiddiminster capacity was around double the current allocation, it was just Redditch that I had no clue as FMR once had Church Road as well
Quote from: Winston on October 03, 2012, 05:00:01 PM
Quote from: jc on October 03, 2012, 04:20:33 PM
It would depend on the size of the buses being used, back in the day Redditch could hold about 60+ Merc 608D's (I feel old now!) but with Enviros and Deckers you could get about 45-50 in there. Kidderminster can hold about 40, its a purpose built garage there.
Thanks JC, I thought Kiddiminster capacity was around double the current allocation, it was just Redditch that I had no clue as FMR once had Church Road as well
It just goes to show how badly First have run this once vibrant business into the ground doesn't it? I feel sorry for the operations that get left behind like Hereford and Worcester as they will be even more isolated and no attempt will be made to revamp or integrate services or networks when there are only 2 depots.
What implications for instance will this deal have on overlapping areas and what each operator is allowed to do?
First are going to end up with a few well performing individual depots up and down the UK that don't link to anything and that is not a good model for a bus operator in my opinion.
Church Road was more the engineering department and vehicle prep area which was moved to Worcester and Engineering is done at Kidderminster when major work is needed.
On a side note the bus wash at Plymouth Road can take Bendy's ;-)
I can honestly see First coming back in 6 months to a year and saying ''do you want Hereford and Worcester?''
Just hope the rumours are true-come on NXWM make MRW a success and hope Rotala get Wigan
Quote from: jc on October 03, 2012, 05:09:11 PM
On a side note the bus wash at Plymouth Road can take Bendy's ;-)
Does Redditch depot want 10 x Merc 0405GN artics, one careful owner???
Quote from: jc on October 03, 2012, 05:09:11 PM
I can honestly see First coming back in 6 months to a year and saying ''do you want Hereford and Worcester?''
You may be right after todays news of First Group having their WCML contract cancelled, I think they were banking on that to help start & sort out some of their debt mountain. There may well be a second tranche of First disposals on the table yet......
Quote from: Peter123 on October 03, 2012, 05:15:48 PM
Just hope the rumours are true-come on NXWM make MRW a success and hope Rotala get Wigan
Rotala have supposedly bitten off more than they could chew with Preston. I think Stagecoach will get Wigan (I know this isnt West Midlands/Mercia sorry) as they have a depot in Chorley.
sconehead85
Quote from: sconehead85 on October 03, 2012, 08:47:36 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on October 03, 2012, 05:15:48 PM
Just hope the rumours are true-come on NXWM make MRW a success and hope Rotala get Wigan
Rotala have supposedly bitten off more than they could chew with Preston. I think Stagecoach will get Wigan (I know this isnt West Midlands/Mercia sorry) as they have a depot in Chorley.
sconehead85
Bitten off more than they could chew?? And just because another company runs near doesnt mean theyll get it-in fact it can be quite the opposite in the days of mmc etc
Quote from: sconehead85 on October 03, 2012, 08:47:36 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on October 03, 2012, 05:15:48 PM
Just hope the rumours are true-come on NXWM make MRW a success and hope Rotala get Wigan
Rotala have supposedly bitten off more than they could chew with Preston. I think Stagecoach will get Wigan (I know this isnt West Midlands/Mercia sorry) as they have a depot in Chorley.
sconehead85
Wigan seems a decent size business when compared with the combined KR & RH bits of Wyvern, I believe there would be scope to expand by buying up independents such as South Lancs Travel etc
That's owned by d&g
Quote from: Tomjusttom on October 03, 2012, 09:20:23 PM
That's owned by d&g
I know, but they've now sold most of the original D&G business to Arriva and now Midland as well, nothing stopping them selling SLT for the right price
Quote from: jc on October 03, 2012, 03:51:33 PM
The Deal should include;
67600/2/4/31-46 (Currently at Redditch - 19 Buses)
32857/60/2/77/81/2/4-6/94 (Currently at Redditch - 10 Buses)
67324, 67246, 67250, 67238, 67239, 67244, 67255, 61013, 61016 (Currently Floating Allocation - 9 Buses)
42889-91 (ADL Darts (Personally would expect these to have moved to Worcester) Currently at Kidderminster - 3 Buses)
43475, 42180, 42402-6, 42641, 42455 (Variety of Darts Currently at Kidderminster - 9 Buses)
I could be wrong with several of these, 42889-91 i would expect to move to Worcester with them being the 'better darts', The Lances make up the 'big bus' fleet at Kidderminster so i would assume they would be included in the deal unless First Group want to give up some of there newer buses to swap with them.
JC, Is Solo 53042 still at KR?
Peter123- Stagecoach would only get the Wigan routes First run. NXWM might have problems with the MMC if they buy the routes running into Birmingham. First Midland Red could go to Rotala or Stagecoach. EYMS are a possibility, but Ive a feeling they would be more likely to sell Whittle and stick to their home turf and Greater Manchester.
sconehead85
53042 moved to Hereford a while ago, the Solos were unsuitable for most of the Kidderminster network.
Seen a Johnsons Operate Solo showing NIS on what would be the 55 today. Were we looking to the wrong company???
I for one would love to see NX acquire not only KR & RH operations, but if they could persuade First to part with the remaining HD & WR garages and buy the whole of what is left of FMR. It would be interesting to see if NX could turn around a business in decline and back to growth, increasing the fleets / services at each of the garages. The FMR business is a shadow of its former self based on the size of the fleet back acquired back when Bagerline & Grampian merged to form First. To achieve that would take a lot of hard work & investment, but I believe the potential is there, especially given First have run the business in to the ground only managing the decline, with decisions that should be being made local by management familiar with the area being made from HQ in Essex
Granted Winston it would only work if the whole of FMRW was bought. I'm using FMRW as First have seeming added to First Midland Red; It's no longer just First Midland West/Wyvern but Potteries Leicester Northampton and Essex all being lumped in to Midland Red. Unless my Sherlock has left me in what i read on the website.
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/worcestershire_herefordshire/about_us/
But then again I could have put 2 and 2 to get 5.
Also Midlandred.net reporting more movements of an Operate to Kidder and other things. Personally if they have sold they are both keeping stushum about it and not letting it get leaked.
But i would profer an independant take it on as I thonk a better service would be provided.
*grabs coat* :bolt:
No you're right First have lumped all the Midlands based operation in to First Midlands which includes Wyvern, Northampton Leicester & Potteries and managed from Chelmsford, Essex. Once the sales hopefully go through & complete, there isn't actually going to be a lot left of First Midlands.
It also comes to something when First are drafting in Tridents from Essex to replace step entry Lances/SLF Lances at Redditch due to either a sale being agreed or close to being agreed
Well I think its mad personally but hey ho would would a user know. I think First are hitting the rocks big time; they have got so out of touch and know dont know what or where to go and do next.
I dare to say it but its very much like the Boys Brigade and Scouts, the BB was formed first and the scouts were formed from a BB book Scouting for Boys. Baydon Powell and the BB Officers who moved to the Scouts saw that they could set up something different from the BB and make a success of it. this was after the same officers has said why dont we add more of this book into our programmes and make it more fun for the lads but BB HQ said no it wouldnt work. May I add they are both very popular world wide and the BB in the USA has missed a trick or two with whats happening with the Boy Scouts of America.
Any way getting back now not seeing the point i was trying to make but hey ho it is late, but First havent moved with the times and kept things up to date, ie the ex stock from london. Im sure the bendis could have come to places like FMRW where the are route with low bridges but need a double decker. i can think of at least on route the 51 in Redditch reduce the frecquency by having a bendi and it would work well as Red Diamond have a every 15mins on the same route and FMRW every 7/8Mins. and im sure Worcester may have a few which a bendi or two would help. It just plan mis management and not 1 thinking and 2 not knowing what the right hand was doing from the left hand which is a shame really as if FMRW had kept its self running well it would be raking it in for First.
Quote from: tank90 on October 06, 2012, 01:30:53 AM
Well I think its mad personally but hey ho would would a user know. I think First are hitting the rocks big time; they have got so out of touch and know dont know what or where to go and do next.
Any way getting back now not seeing the point i was trying to make but hey ho it is late, but First havent moved with the times and kept things up to date, ie the ex stock from london. Im sure the bendis could have come to places like FMRW where the are route with low bridges but need a double decker. i can think of at least on route the 51 in Redditch reduce the frecquency by having a bendi and it would work well as Red Diamond have a every 15mins on the same route and FMRW every 7/8Mins. and im sure Worcester may have a few which a bendi or two would help. It just plan mis management and not 1 thinking and 2 not knowing what the right hand was doing from the left hand which is a shame really as if FMRW had kept its self running well it would be raking it in for First.
Bendi Buses have been used in Redditch years ago in the form of MAN's with DAB bodywork, I remember travelling on them as a kid with my Nan who lived in Redditch at the time, and they were used on what is now known as the 57/58. First's philosophy has been to manage decline through raising fares whilst concentrating new vehicle investment on the area where most money can made instead of investing in the underperforming areas, not least managing the businesses from miles away by people who don't know the areas. This is why the First Empire has been crumbling for the past few years......
http://www.reddibus.com/Bendi-bus.htm
Oh knew about the MAN's some liked them others werent so keen it wasnt just the R7 and R8 that they saw service on they did have a spin on the R5 (55) and R6 (56) and then moved to Chase. but no i dont think it would have hurt first to have put a few bendi mercs in to FMRW fleet when Boris had his way in London as the 51 would have benifted and the 44 but thats hind sight which is a wounderful thing.
But I think First has lost the ball on everything due to them not looking at what they had got and said ok we can make this work by just having the units carry on under the brand and come together to buy buses in bulk and have a common name with say for Manchester First Manchester and so on. But instead they wanted everything the same with no care to where they could have made money due to depots being close to bigger city areas ei redditch kidder being close to brum and making in roads in to balance the books up more. And then also looking how you can increase things like cap and frequency or just one of them but i think they have messed up everywhere not just here but in Cornwall London Southampton Machester Leeds York all over the shop. This i think is due to not letting the regoins manage them selves more and not get the message to everyone in the company as First are Worcestershire County Councils favs I cant see a new company havong much luck with them to be honest as Heron Lodge got close with WCC. but im sure we ll see what will happen in the next few weeks as to whether this is First making sounds to boost moral in the depots or just away of moving vechicals around so FMRW RH WR KD dont moan to much and if it is that then i feel for Northampton but then again they could have tried it too to see if it would have worked.
Quote from: jc on October 03, 2012, 01:39:52 AM
There is planned to be an official announcement on the 16th October ... 67312 and 67256 have been moved to Worcester ready for scrap as they are not part of the deal with 67245 and 67247 looking set to follow. Apparently things are to be run seperate from NXWM ... Please can i keep my E300s? :-[
Looks as though is going to be November at the earliest before we know who has bought what...... looks as though one announcement re UK bus disposals is on the cards
http://www.transportxtra.com/magazines/local_transport_today/news/?id=32376&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
Well I might add that Arriva looking back might also have the commissioner bods on there back for RH and KR as they could look at RH and KR as in the Greater Midlands Area and say that they already run a sizable chunk of services in the Greater Midlands area. Greater Midlands being Ex Midland Red North Ex Midland Fox and Midland. So I do think that it could spark NX to say well hang on that isnt cricket Arriva now have a monopoly on Services in the North East and West of us. But thats me being hopefull they dont as I'd like to see FMWR sold as a block so we have half a chance of getting to were we need to as Worcester is so set on having everything that Worcestershire needs and Redditch and Kidder are in Worcestershire after all and do need good links to services that get you to Worcester. Redditch has the rougher deal in that the 350 is few and far between and you have silly times for it, so that only leaves the X3 143 145 to Bromsgrove and then the 144 to Worcester as the best way to Worcester from Redditch.
Personally, I think it would be much more beneficial for First Group to dispose of Wyvern complete rather than just KR & RH operations, many of the various garages routes overlap and by selling off only some operations this will effectively break up the current route network. Retaining HD with approx only 20 vehicles seems a pointless exercise as that is now only a small operation, so they may as well chuck that in to the for sale pot along with KR & RH. But even retaining Worcester as a standalone operation, although we assume WR to be fairly profitable, I don't see that First have the scale there to make it worthwhile and it's never likely to generate/grow the turnover/profit as quickly as a turnaround of some of the former PTE operations that First own such as Glasgow, Manchester, West & South Yorkshire which are much larger. So why not sell off some smaller more profitable operations that will achieve higher sale prices to help turnaround the fortunes of the more profitable/larger scale UK bus divisions and reduce group debt as a whole.
I can't help thinking that First Midland Red / Wyvern ought to be a viable unit. After all, Stagecoach has been very successful in Warwickshire.
I agree with Winston that, to coin a phrase, the whole of First Midland Red is greater than the sum of its parts. Hereford is more detached, but the towns of Kidderminster, Bromsgrove, Redditch and Worcester all have close ties with each other. It makes sense to leave them together. It is questionable whether just Redditch and Kidderminster would be any better off under new ownership, unless a particularly enterprising operator came along, and Worcester on its own would not have the mass to be anything other than a remote First outpost.
Actually, Hereford could be an attractive proposition to sell. Herefordshire Council was (and may still be) quite pro-bus, and with a number of operators in the area there probably would be no OFT issues. It could even appeal to Stagecoach, who run into Hereford on two routes and have a garage not that far away in Ross-on-Wye.
But I wouldn't like to speculate on what *will* happen, if anything!
Quote from: Justin Tyme on October 13, 2012, 05:55:41 PM
I can't help thinking that First Midland Red / Wyvern ought to be a viable unit. After all, Stagecoach has been very successful in Warwickshire.
I agree with Winston that, to coin a phrase, the whole of First Midland Red is greater than the sum of its parts. Hereford is more detached, but the towns of Kidderminster, Bromsgrove, Redditch and Worcester all have close ties with each other. It makes sense to leave them together. It is questionable whether just Redditch and Kidderminster would be any better off under new ownership, unless a particularly enterprising operator came along, and Worcester on its own would not have the mass to be anything other than a remote First outpost.
Actually, Hereford could be an attractive proposition to sell. Herefordshire Council was (and may still be) quite pro-bus, and with a number of operators in the area there probably would be no OFT issues. It could even appeal to Stagecoach, who run into Hereford on two routes and have a garage not that far away in Ross-on-Wye.
But I wouldn't like to speculate on what *will* happen, if anything!
I think Wyvern is a viable unit, but only as a whole to a new operator. First have done little to develop/invest in the unit, its been managed from head offices miles away with little if any knowledge of the local area and its just seen cuts after cuts, the fleet has also shrunk considerably over the years..... Worcester has seen fewer cuts, but even so has also seen little fleet investment since the arrival of Enviro 300's back in 2004/5. WR has since seen the arrival of Volvo B7RLE/Wright from Leicester/Northampton & Volvo B7RLE/Plaxton Centro more recently ex Veolia Cyrmu even those are now 7 & 5 years old respectively
Quote from: Winston on October 13, 2012, 03:29:32 PM
Quote from: jc on October 03, 2012, 01:39:52 AM
There is planned to be an official announcement on the 16th October ... 67312 and 67256 have been moved to Worcester ready for scrap as they are not part of the deal with 67245 and 67247 looking set to follow. Apparently things are to be run seperate from NXWM ... Please can i keep my E300s? :-[
Looks as though is going to be November at the earliest before we know who has bought what...... looks as though one announcement re UK bus disposals is on the cards
http://www.transportxtra.com/magazines/local_transport_today/news/?id=32376&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
First Group interim results are due to be announced 2nd Nov, hopefully we will hear some further news on UK bus disposals on the same day
Everything seems to have shut up ... there was a rumour of NX pulling out of the deal at the last minute but ...
Quote from: jc on October 18, 2012, 11:37:29 AM
Everything seems to have shut up ... there was a rumour of NX pulling out of the deal at the last minute but ...
I'd still like to see NX take on at least RH & KR operations, maybe NX threatened to pull out of the deal at the last minute to see if they could persuade First to part with HD & WR as well. If they could get the whole of Wyvern, this has far more potential than just RH & KR...... hopefully the 2nd Nov will reveal more.......
Quote from: jc on October 18, 2012, 11:37:29 AM
Everything seems to have shut up ... there was a rumour of NX pulling out of the deal at the last minute but ...
It seems NX may have also been in the frame for Wigan operations as well as KR & RH, however this has been posted on the First Groups Fans Yahoo Group by Eric Yip which kind of ties in with what JC has suggested above about sales being called off at the last minute, it sounds as though it may be First Group rather than NX calling the deals off.....
"I believe Rock Ferry & Chester are no longer on the list. General consensus is that if someone were to come along with the right amount of pound notes for whatever depot then group would sell the said depot regardless as to whether it was on the list or not...
Since the collapse of the West Coast franchise bid I have been told that many sales have been called off... Rumour has it that the National Express Group were to take Wigan but the sale was cancelled at the last minute and do not know which party called it off & why... "
Eric
Quote from: Winston on October 18, 2012, 12:01:23 PM
Quote from: jc on October 18, 2012, 11:37:29 AM
Everything seems to have shut up ... there was a rumour of NX pulling out of the deal at the last minute but ...
I'd still like to see NX take on at least RH & KR operations, maybe NX threatened to pull out of the deal at the last minute to see if they could persuade First to part with HD & WR as well. If they could get the whole of Wyvern, this has far more potential than just RH & KR...... hopefully the 2nd Nov will reveal more.......
First Group interim results are actually due 7th Nov, IG markets is showing the date incorrectly......
Announced this morning Wigan has been sold to Stagecoach for £12 Million
here is a link about it
http://busandcoach.com/newspage.aspx?id=7256&categoryid=0
Quote from: woody38 on October 31, 2012, 02:44:00 PM
here is a link about it
http://busandcoach.com/newspage.aspx?id=7256&categoryid=0
Would have been nice to see NX move in to a new area, but I guess Stagecoach was always favourite.....
It does look as though Chester & Birkenhead may have been taken off the for sale list, as I would have thought that those operations would have been of most interest to Stagecoach, which you'd have thought would have been acquired as a job lot
Quote from: Winston on October 31, 2012, 08:13:47 AM
Announced this morning Wigan has been sold to Stagecoach for £12 Million
Any news on RH & KR or will we have to wait until the 7th :)
Quote from: Rob H on November 02, 2012, 09:15:15 PM
Quote from: Winston on October 31, 2012, 08:13:47 AM
Announced this morning Wigan has been sold to Stagecoach for £12 Million
Any news on RH & KR or will we have to wait until the 7th :)
Nothing, all has gone quiet. I hope if there is any truth in it that they could persuade First to part with the whole of Wyvern
There's rumours on the Scottish Bus Yahoo Group that NX are interested in First Scotland East's Livingstone & Larbert depots. But they don't fit the usual high frequency / urban route criteria but they are not a million miles away from Dundee. If NX do want to expand its UK bus business options are pretty limited....
Im surprised no one has mentioned this but First has sold Wigan depot to Stagecoach but this will become part of Stagecoach Manchester despite being closer to Merseyside/South Lancs region.
Wigan has quite a mix of vehicles, some of which may not last long with Stagecoach. Those I expect to not be moved I will mark with an *.
9 Dennis Arrow*, 9 Volvo Olympian, 10 Volvo B9TL (16950-9 ?)
20 Volvo B10BLE, 14 Volvo B7RLE, 20 Optare Excels (Firsts final such buses)*, 5 Optare Versa and 18 Iveco Scolabus.
Apart from the B7/B9s and the Optare Versas the fleet is middle aged. I doubt if SC will take the Arrows, if these are schoolbuses its possible ex London Tridents may replace these. The Optare Excels could be replaced by Volvo B10Ls 21066-75 and others from within Stagecoach fleet.
sconehead85
We did, it's about 5 messages above in this thread
Quote from: sconehead85 on November 02, 2012, 09:58:08 PM
Im surprised no one has mentioned this but First has sold Wigan depot to Stagecoach but this will become part of Stagecoach Manchester despite being closer to Merseyside/South Lancs region.
Wigan has quite a mix of vehicles, some of which may not last long with Stagecoach. Those I expect to not be moved I will mark with an *.
9 Dennis Arrow*, 9 Volvo Olympian, 10 Volvo B9TL (16950-9 ?)
20 Volvo B10BLE, 14 Volvo B7RLE, 20 Optare Excels (Firsts final such buses)*, 5 Optare Versa and 18 Iveco Scolabus.
Apart from the B7/B9s and the Optare Versas the fleet is middle aged. I doubt if SC will take the Arrows, if these are schoolbuses its possible ex London Tridents may replace these. The Optare Excels could be replaced by Volvo B10Ls 21066-75 and others from within Stagecoach fleet.
sconehead85
JINGS CRIVENS GADZOOKS! Apologies Winston. I must have scrolled past.
sconehead85
Quote from: sconehead85 on November 02, 2012, 11:50:41 PM
JINGS CRIVENS GADZOOKS! Apologies Winston. I must have scrolled past.
sconehead85
No need to apologise....
Quote from: Rob H on November 02, 2012, 09:15:15 PM
Quote from: Winston on October 31, 2012, 08:13:47 AM
Announced this morning Wigan has been sold to Stagecoach for £12 Million
Any news on RH & KR or will we have to wait until the 7th :)
Still no news re - further First Group UK bus disposals in today's results
Its all gone very quite on the sale of firsts cast offs?
Chester & Rock Ferry operations have been sold this morning to Stagecoach for £4.5Million involving 110 buses
http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/news/market-news/market-news-detail.html?announcementId=11392400
First are still some way off their £100 Million disposal target
First Worcester and Hereford have had new ticket machines fitted ... Redditch and Kidderminster haven't.
I will let you draw your own conclusions!
Quote from: jc on November 12, 2012, 01:19:45 PM
First Worcester and Hereford have had new ticket machines fitted ... Redditch and Kidderminster haven't.
I will let you draw your own conclusions!
Saw that on Midlandred.net, it doesn't look like First are planning to let HR & WR go for the time being at least......
I won't say exactly who/what I have been informed of as it is still subject to official announcement, But I can tell you that First Northampton has been sold.
Quote from: Bruce_LOA400X on November 12, 2012, 11:43:33 PM
I won't say exactly who/what I have been informed of as it is still subject to official announcement, But I can tell you that First Northampton has been sold.
To Centrebus by all accounts
Quote from: Winston on November 12, 2012, 09:03:25 AM
Chester & Rock Ferry operations have been sold this morning to Stagecoach for £4.5Million involving 110 buses
http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/news/market-news/market-news-detail.html?announcementId=11392400
First are still some way off their £100 Million disposal target
Stagecoach have been interested in this part of First for a while, their vehicles and staff were spotted at Rock Ferry (Birkenhead).
sconehead85
Its being like a reverse Z in the map of disposals. First Wigan, then Chester, and after that is Northampton. What's going to be next?
Could Redditch and Kidderminster be next? Or could the trend disappear and just be a random depot being announced. Who knows
Bruce- I wonder if Luton Airport (how can I forget Lorraine Chase, much as I've tried) small bus operation will go with the Northampton sale? There are four Volvo B7LAs (10180-2, 19031 and B7L 66358. Perhaps an "airport bus" operator will buy that operation if Arriva are prevented.
sconehead85
It looks like Barnstable is going to local operator Taw & Torridge
Quote from: Tony on November 14, 2012, 06:12:50 PM
It looks like Barnstable is going to local operator Taw & Torridge
Barnstable depot?
Quote from: Winston on November 14, 2012, 06:33:23 PM
Quote from: Tony on November 14, 2012, 06:12:50 PM
It looks like Barnstable is going to local operator Taw & Torridge
Barnstable depot?
Yes depot buses and routes, Taw & Torridge are supposed to be moving some of their own routes into the depot as well
Quote from: Tony on November 14, 2012, 06:35:57 PM
Quote from: Winston on November 14, 2012, 06:33:23 PM
Quote from: Tony on November 14, 2012, 06:12:50 PM
It looks like Barnstable is going to local operator Taw & Torridge
Barnstable depot?
Yes depot buses and routes, Taw & Torridge are supposed to be moving some of their own routes into the depot as well
Surely it's just the depot that has been sold to them? First stopped operating in Barnstaple on 23rd September, so passengers have now transferred to the alternatives and replacements operated by Stagecoach and other small operators in the area, so there are no 'routes' or 'staff' as such to transfer?
Apologies, yes just the depot building
Quote from: Winston on November 13, 2012, 12:06:30 AM
To Centrebus by all accounts
Well that's put paid to the secrecy! LOL
I still haven't heard anything official about it though.
Quote from: sconehead85 on November 14, 2012, 09:33:14 AM
Bruce- I wonder if Luton Airport (how can I forget Lorraine Chase, much as I've tried) small bus operation will go with the Northampton sale? There are four Volvo B7LAs (10180-2, 19031 and B7L 66358. Perhaps an "airport bus" operator will buy that operation if Arriva are prevented.
sconehead85
Hey mate,
I'm unsure of this, since Luton is just an outstation?? of Northampton then surely it would be included in the sale, Unless first would keep the luton bit for whatever reason (there really isn't a reason to!). I can't see centrebus being interested in that luton operation However I could be very wrong.
I wonder if Potteries could go? its had a little bit of investment, last new buses were a few 06 plate omnicities and has had some 05 plates b7rle from manchester but by & large its a pretty old tatty fleet.....
Quote from: bob on November 16, 2012, 06:46:12 AM
I wonder if Potteries could go? its had a little bit of investment, last new buses were a few 06 plate omnicities and has had some 05 plates b7rle from manchester but by & large its a pretty old tatty fleet.....
Again, depends on profit margins as others have said.
Potteries in my eyes is a half and half area, potentially they could get rid of it or they might keep it as it probably wouldn't take much to make it better anyway.
Potteries has been having a lot of vehicles moved in, Former Veolia Solos, Former London Caetanos as well as the Volvo B7TLs, they have been replacing quite a lot of buses of late.
Quote from: jc on November 16, 2012, 08:19:13 PM
.... as well as the Volvo B7TLs...
some of which were exchanged with Leicester, we gained a single decker!
32639 has shown up at Newcastle under lyme.
Yea but the london caetanos are 9 yrs old and the b7tls 8 yrs old hardly impressive if thats the best they can do! majority of fleet is R to X reg Scanias and Darts/Solos of the same vintage. Look how many deckers theyve got rid of over the years and replaced with a mish mash of midibus upwards S/Ds hardly conducive to success
Quote from: jc on November 16, 2012, 08:43:20 PM
32639 has shown up at Newcastle under lyme.
Another one of ours....
Somethings going on, if we have sent 5 deckers and only had 1 single in return something is up there.... I wonder if first are planning to cut a route in Leicester....
Quote from: Bruce_LOA400X on November 16, 2012, 09:01:38 PM
Quote from: jc on November 16, 2012, 08:43:20 PM
32639 has shown up at Newcastle under lyme.
Another one of ours....
Somethings going on, if we have sent 5 deckers and only had 1 single in return something is up there.... I wonder if first are planning to cut a route in Leicester....
Or even sell Leicester, none of the fleet have received the new colours as yet.....
again relating to what someone else said.
they will probably retain Leicester for the moment... perhaps Leicester is to become another Northampton
Stoke and Leicester are tough ones to sell because Stagecoach cant buy everything First sell, and Arriva wouldn't be allowed to buy them either. Go-Ahead are unlikely to go for Midlands companies , and Rotala burnt their fingers with Preston Bus. Stoke and Leicester will remain with First IMHO.
sconehead85
Quote from: sconehead85 on November 17, 2012, 12:05:48 AM
Stoke and Leicester are tough ones to sell because Stagecoach cant buy everything First sell, and Arriva wouldn't be allowed to buy them either. Go-Ahead are unlikely to go for Midlands companies , and Rotala burnt their fingers with Preston Bus. Stoke and Leicester will remain with First IMHO.
sconehead85
the only other way things could work is First winding down what they are doing, like deregistering routes and the like, thus letting the other operators in. what about NX? they might be interested?
Quote from: sconehead85 on November 17, 2012, 12:05:48 AM
Stoke and Leicester are tough ones to sell because Stagecoach cant buy everything First sell, and Arriva wouldn't be allowed to buy them either. Go-Ahead are unlikely to go for Midlands companies , and Rotala burnt their fingers with Preston Bus. Stoke and Leicester will remain with First IMHO.
sconehead85
Don't forget NX, they seem to be featuring in a number of the rumours floating around....
How did Rotala burn their fingers with preston bus???
peter123- Its supposed to have cost Rotala more than they bargained for. Preston is the only Rotala operation with step-entry buses to eliminate.
sconehead85
Just an off the wall idea, Centrebus could be potential buyers for First Leicester if it ever ends up on the for sale list. As for the potteries, possibly the independents could reign supreme
Quote from: Ashley on November 22, 2012, 10:47:47 PM
Just an off the wall idea, Centrebus could be potential buyers for First Leicester if it ever ends up on the for sale list. As for the potteries, possibly the independents could reign supreme
I would have thought that Centrebus may struggle to raise the kind of money required to be able to buy Leicester if it did ever become for sale, I would have thought that one of the big groups would be more likely to snap it up, we can rule out Arriva due to Oft/MMC issues, Go-Ahead, NX or Stagecoach.
I personally would still like to see NX Group participate in acquiring some of the operations being sold off by First Group & if not of interest, look to expand its UK bus operations in to other areas through the acquisitions of sizable independents or smaller bus groups etc If Leicester did become for sale, I would have thought it would interest NX due to being an urban operation & not located far from Birmingham
Cant really see independents running the Potteries network lol
Quote from: bob on November 23, 2012, 11:08:40 AM
Cant really see independents running the Potteries network lol
The independent of any size in that area is what's left of D&G & Bakerbus isn't it?
They're the largest independents I can think of in that area
Ok folks I'm now rather confused after reading the Redditch Standard (Friday 23rd November 2012).
The reason I say this is because on page 15 a heading reads; "Evening buses may be extended". And the goes on to say that 'Bosses at First Bus have agreed to look in the new year at further increasing the timtable for the 57 and 58 services..... Operations manager Phil Haines said: "If it keeps on, track we will in the New Year be looking to extend the service over some additional evenings. whether that will be over the whole week it is impossible to say. We haveno intention of withdrawing it and there is no cause for concern if the figures continue along the lines they are doing.'"
Now reading the rest of it, it doesnt look like or say that they are thinking of selling the depot off. Now it could be that the reason for Worcester having new ticket machines is because it is a safe depot and not letting Redditch a nd Kidderminster having new ones is away of getting the two garages to make more money and the 4 garages are kept together. Just a way ward thought.
Quote from: tank90 on November 23, 2012, 11:22:07 PM
Ok folks I'm now rather confused after reading the Redditch Standard (Friday 23rd November 2012).
The reason I say this is because on page 15 a heading reads; "Evening buses may be extended". And the goes on to say that 'Bosses at First Bus have agreed to look in the new year at further increasing the timtable for the 57 and 58 services..... Operations manager Phil Haines said: "If it keeps on, track we will in the New Year be looking to extend the service over some additional evenings. whether that will be over the whole week it is impossible to say. We haveno intention of withdrawing it and there is no cause for concern if the figures continue along the lines they are doing.'"
Now reading the rest of it, it doesnt look like or say that they are thinking of selling the depot off. Now it could be that the reason for Worcester having new ticket machines is because it is a safe depot and not letting Redditch and Kidderminster having new ones is away of getting the two garages to make more money and the 4 garages are kept together. Just a way ward thought.
I don't think I would read anything significant into this. The business still has to be run, targets still have to be met and opportunities taken, whatever happens. It is quite common for bus service changes to happen (and vehicle transfers if necessary) for good housekeeping reasons, even if a sale is forthcoming.
More could be read into RH and KR not being given new ticket machines - that appears to still leave all options open.
Theres a lot more to that article than meets to eye, the article below also reads of a Diamond review in Redditch, watch this space as unexpected things will happen rather soon!
Quote from: jc on November 25, 2012, 08:02:36 PM
Theres a lot more to that article than meets to eye, the article below also reads of a Diamond review in Redditch, watch this space as unexpected things will happen rather soon!
As in rotala may be purchasing First's operation in Redditch or Rotala preparing themselves incase of a possible takeover of First within the area red diamond operates.
No, Rotala are not buying the First depots, the Diamond threat is more a 'lets run at them while there down' attempt.
If anything Diamond need services out of Redditch to connect with the Blue and Black ones in the West Midlands or even services to Stratford, Evesham and Bromsgrove, something which until they introduce will mean they will never take half the passengers from First.
I doubt rotala will put any investment into the West Midlands bus operations (black/blue/red diamond) although to attract more passengers im sure an investment in some newer vehilces would be a start then use them on new commerical services to link their network together.
Quote from: jc on November 25, 2012, 08:18:51 PM
No, Rotala are not buying the First depots, the Diamond threat is more a 'lets run at them while there down' attempt.
If anything Diamond need services out of Redditch to connect with the Blue and Black ones in the West Midlands or even services to Stratford, Evesham and Bromsgrove, something which until they introduce will mean they will never take half the passengers from First.
So what exactly is happening? hopefully not Stagecoach buying again.....
I can't reveal what is happening but something will happen in earlyish 2013, something quite unexpected too, but thats all i can say at this stage.
Quote from: jc on November 25, 2012, 08:31:35 PM
I can't reveal what is happening but something will happen in earlyish 2013, something quite unexpected too, but thats all i can say at this stage.
Fair enough, do you anticipate that there will be an announcement to the stock exchange before the end of 2012 then?
I would have to say no.
Badgerline and or Grampian are coming back or Worcestershire County Council have bought the Redditch and Kidderminster Depots and buses so they have more control.
Or the Managers at Redditch and Kidder have bought out Redditch and Kidder along with the name Midland Red West.
Couldnt imagine any Council anywhere buying a bus company
Quote from: bob on November 25, 2012, 09:24:56 PM
Couldnt imagine any Council anywhere buying a bus company
For starters Councils don't have any money to spend on their normal services, let alone buying up bus companies.
Those that still own bus companies are more likely to sell them in the current climate.....
Worcestershire County Council do weird things. I would call WCC Red Squirrel Tories for the simple reason they are handy in realising money that is taken in land/buildings to do things they want to. As far as I know they still own a few old School sites that are no longer used across the county and there are also the Youth centre sites they are selling so they would have money to spend there.
Like jc said some unexpected will happen; and Worcestershire CC doing something against the grain would be unexpected. Unless of course First are keeping Redditch and Kidder and getting rid of Leicester Potteries Hereford and Worcester as they all use the same ticket machines.
The new machines at Worcester are the new first standard issue machines in preparation for there new oyster card style tickets ...
Anyone heard about the new multi-op tickets avliable in Worcester, Kidderminster and Redditch from Spring next year?
The Worcestershire Rider has gone quite so far not sure why.
*goes off to the council website to have a look*
"Multi Operator Ticketing
Traditional bus ticketing arrangements can act as a barrier to wider use of bus services as they are complex, poorly understood and are disproportionately expensive where changes of services are required. Such ticketing arrangements can therefore make bus transport an unattractive mode, especially to the irregular user or for more complex journeys.
The County Connecta Multi-Operator Ticketing Scheme covers all journeys within the Worcestershire county boundaries and benefits the public providing alternative simplified ticketing arrangements and reducing costs where journeys require a change of bus operator.
There are also local schemes covering the urban areas of Redditch (Redditch Connecta), Kidderminster-Bewdley-Stourport (Kiddy Connecta) and Worcester (City Connecta)
It is expected that the scheme will commence early next year.
The Scheme is governed by a board representing the bus operators (3 members) and Worcestershire County Council (3 members). The County Council provides a non voting chairperson and the scheme is administered by JMP Consultants Ltd.
The current board consist of:
Non Voting Chairperson: Wayne Arthur - Worcestershire County Council
Secretary: David Ivill - JMP Consultants Ltd.
Worcestershire County Council Representatives: Andrew Baker, Michael Knott and Christopher Holloway
Large Bus Operator Representatives: Julian Elliott (First Midland Red) and Ian Pollard (Rotala Plc.)
Small Bus Operator Representative: Andrew McKinnon (Whittlebus)"
http://www.worcestershire.gov.uk/cms/bus/multi-operator-ticketing.aspx
Lifted from the website and the address is there for people to have a look
On that note Whittles have bought Redditch and Kiddy and the whitehall bods have okayed it. Its just a thought as that would comfirm it somewhat.
Whittles haven't brought them, however, from what i know they may expand.
Those Connecta tickets should be interesting, i wonder if they will be valid to Studley ...
Redditch Connecta I would think would not be valid in Studley or Birmingham. How ever I would think it would be vaild for travel on the 247 in Worcestershire, ie if you board the service in Worcestershire it will be vaild. Same I would think for City connecta and the services to Hereford and other none Worcestershire towns.
So ifs its not Whittles or Rotala and First are selling why wouldnt the new company be involed orare they and WCC are keeping them off the loop role call or they are hiding in the WCC reps.
Quote from: jc on November 25, 2012, 08:02:36 PM
Theres a lot more to that article than meets to eye, the article below also reads of a Diamond review in Redditch, watch this space as unexpected things will happen rather soon!
yeah I tried doing the online review and its pretty pants to be fair but hey ho gave up in the end.
I actually went through the whole thing, although answering questions about my use of Preston Bus may have been a bit of topic ...
If its something unexpected, could be centrebus, RATP, Julian Peddle, management or eyms. those would be some of my guesses.
Here are a couple of left-field suggestions. deCourcey seem to have been gradually making an impression lately, particularly with them running the NEC shuttle now. Or hows about Johnson's? No evidence to suggest either, but they both just popped into my head.
Quote from: Mr Wood on November 26, 2012, 05:51:34 PM
Here are a couple of left-field suggestions. deCourcey seem to have been gradually making an impression lately, particularly with them running the NEC shuttle now. Or hows about Johnson's? No evidence to suggest either, but they both just popped into my head.
Fair guesses. I think if anyone could turn around Redditch or Kidderminster it could be Mike de Courcey
A very reliable source has informed me that it involves the Dutch. This source has informed me that its quite close to announcement
Quote from: Tomjusttom on November 26, 2012, 06:21:38 PM
A very reliable source has informed me that it involves the Dutch. This source has informed me that its quite close to announcement
The last thing MRW need is being run from Holland-its bad enough for them being run from Essex!! No, if they did buy it, Rotala would be able to sweep in and drive them out.
Suppose he is thinking outside the box?
Maybe they will bring a british amsterdam with them, get your money ready lads! ;)
I had thought of Johnsons too. Personally I think we should sit tight and see what happens, all we do know is that they are up for sale no one has said they have sold them the company has sold most of the list and a disused depot and there Birkenhead operations too so it might not happen. But I think First need to say something before the rumour wheel starts to roll into the press.
First are still quite short of there £100m target! The Wyvern rumour will shock most people when it comes out, if the plans don't change before it does!
First may still kill UK Grey Hound as it doesnt really work. NX and Mega bus had the markets covered.
To be honest a Midland Red rumour could shock any body lol. I do find it funny the Logo of MRW is now the nick name for FMR.
Brain wave the reason why First still havent put any current buses into new fleet colours, they dont know what to call it yet lol
do we go with the legal name First Midland Red or our pet name Wyvern.
A big shock woul dhave been a new emergancy timetable for the 146 to help people comute between Redditch and Birmingham while London Midland were having a lack of drivers, they would have made a bomb but because its all run from Essex it wouldnt bother them to get more money and help people at the same time.
Forget management buyouts- they require bank loans and the banks wont touch bus companies. An existing larger company takeover is the best bet.
sconehead85
Banks won't touch buses?? http://thebuspeople.co.uk/?p=1358
Quote from: jc on November 26, 2012, 07:07:10 PM
First are still quite short of there £100m target! The Wyvern rumour will shock most people when it comes out, if the plans don't change before it does!
Ever so slightly, they haven't even raised a third yet.
I'm wondering whether they may sell off a few operations of First Student / First Transit in America, selling off a few small chunks of the 60,000 fleet over there will hardly even be noticeable. i think Hull Trains has also been suggested as its not really a core operation
Quote from: Tomjusttom on November 26, 2012, 06:21:38 PM
A very reliable source has informed me that it involves the Dutch. This source has informed me that its quite close to announcement
As in Abellio's owner Ned Railways?
Quote from: Winston on November 26, 2012, 09:14:46 PM
Quote from: Tomjusttom on November 26, 2012, 06:21:38 PM
A very reliable source has informed me that it involves the Dutch. This source has informed me that its quite close to announcement
As in Abellio's owner Ned Railways?
That's what my source tells me.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the American bit go, although there operation over there is rather large!
The US and Canada is making money its over here thats not :-\
Quote from: tank90 on November 26, 2012, 09:57:50 PM
The US and Canada is making money its over here thats not :-\
Greyhound is doing pretty well, but First Student isn't making anywhere near the profit it used to, I was only suggesting selling off the odd 1000 vehicle operation, it would soon top up the £100 Million target
North America First student is making money to as the schools contract First to run there buses. Also in North America First is not just a bus and coach operator it also is a Servicing company abit like V.I.P and the Old Hardings are/was.
The UK first student isnt doing as well i dont think but who would buy it Green Bus??
As for Hull Trains I cant see First walking away from that just yet.
Quote from: tank90 on November 26, 2012, 10:21:16 PM
North America First student is making money to as the schools contract First to run there buses. Also in North America First is not just a bus and coach operator it also is a Servicing company abit like V.I.P and the Old Hardings are/was.
The UK first student isnt doing as well i dont think but who would buy it Green Bus??
As for Hull Trains I cant see First walking away from that just yet.
Tnak90,
It didn't say First Student/Transit in North America wasn't making money, but it isn't making anywhere near the profits/margins it once did since its first full year contribution under First Group ownership:
2012 2011 2010 2009First Student - Turnover = £1,567.2 Million £1594.4 Million £2337.3 Million £2224.1 Million
Operating Profit = £107.2 Million £128.3 Million £233.9 Million £246.1 Million
First Transit/First Services - Turnover = £778.6 Million £771.5 Million Inc above Inc above
Operating Profit = £55.8 Million £57.2 Million Inc above Inc above
Greyhound Turnover = £657.2 Million £634.6 Million £603.3 Million £642.4 Million
Operating Profit = £50.6 Million £40.2 Million £23.9 Million £48.5 Million
If you compare the combined First Student/First Transit Turnover & Operating Profits between 2009 & the most recent annual accounts published for 2012
2012 2009
Turnover £2345.8 Million £2224.1 Million
Operating Profit £163 Million £246.1 Million
Profit Margin 6.9% 10.6%
Basically as I said, since First Students/First Transits first full year of contributions back in 2009 to the latest annual report, profit margins in North America have fallen by 3.7% representing a fall of £83 Million profit. Any small percentage improvement in the North American business will have a far greater impact on Group profits than worrying about selling off tiny operations at Redditch, Kiddiminster & even parting with the whole of Wyvern for that matter. Some of the fall in profits can be contributed to the US economy/Eurozone crisis, but a lot of it will be down to the management of the division by First, which is the same for UK bus under performance. Only Greyhound's performance has improved over that period under First ownership, however that also headed south during 2010/2011 but has since recovered to higher levels than when First acquired it off Laidlaw
Quote from: Peter123 on November 26, 2012, 09:03:00 PM
Banks won't touch buses?? http://thebuspeople.co.uk/?p=1358
There are exceptions to every rule, but the bits First are selling off are not profitable. This Nottingham example is not a management buy out or a 1990s style Employee Share Ownership Plan, which the banks wont touch. If you have to borrow to buy out a poor. performing bus operator the manager will show you the door. First wants full whack, and so do the banks.
Speaking of FIRST GREYHOUND, the correct term may be "put to sleep".
sconehead85
But the reason for lower margins is they have invested in new equipment and vechicals so profits would be down.
Quote from: Winston on November 26, 2012, 11:12:16 PM
Quote from: tank90 on November 26, 2012, 10:21:16 PM
North America First student is making money to as the schools contract First to run there buses. Also in North America First is not just a bus and coach operator it also is a Servicing company abit like V.I.P and the Old Hardings are/was.
The UK first student isnt doing as well i dont think but who would buy it Green Bus??
As for Hull Trains I cant see First walking away from that just yet.
Tnak90,
It didn't say First Student/Transit in North America wasn't making money, but it isn't making anywhere near the profits/margins it once did since its first full year contribution under First Group ownership:
2012 2011 2010 2009
First Student - Turnover = £1,567.2 Million £1594.4 Million £2337.3 Million £2224.1 Million
Operating Profit = £107.2 Million £128.3 Million £233.9 Million £246.1 Million
First Transit/First Services - Turnover = £778.6 Million £771.5 Million Inc above Inc above
Operating Profit = £55.8 Million £57.2 Million Inc above Inc above
Greyhound Turnover = £657.2 Million £634.6 Million £603.3 Million £642.4 Million
Operating Profit = £50.6 Million £40.2 Million £23.9 Million £48.5 Million
If you compare the combined First Student/First Transit Turnover & Operating Profits between 2009 & the most recent annual accounts published for 2012
2012 2009
Turnover £2345.8 Million £2224.1 Million
Operating Profit £163 Million £246.1 Million
Profit Margin 6.9% 10.6%
Basically as I said, since First Students/First Transits first full year of contributions back in 2009 to the latest annual report, profit margins in North America have fallen by 3.7% representing a fall of £83 Million profit. Any small percentage improvement in the North American business will have a far greater impact on Group profits than worrying about selling off tiny operations at Redditch, Kiddiminster & even parting with the whole of Wyvern for that matter. Some of the fall in profits can be contributed to the US economy/Eurozone crisis, but a lot of it will be down to the management of the division by First, which is the same for UK bus under performance. Only Greyhound's performance has improved over that period under First ownership, however that also headed south during 2010/2011 but has since recovered to higher levels than when First acquired it off Laidlaw
I wasn't saying you were wrong just that they have made investments but I too didn't explain myself either. I'm also sure at somepoint ( I maybe wrong here but hey ho) First said they were only looking at the UK not North America as they have made investments there and have had new contracts which has ment they have had to buy new equipment to carry out said contracts.
But as i said I could be wrong.
Quote from: tank90 on November 26, 2012, 11:52:58 PM
But the reason for lower margins is they have invested in new equipment and vechicals so profits would be down.
I wasn't saying you were wrong just that they have made investments but I too didn't explain myself either. I'm also sure at somepoint ( I maybe wrong here but hey ho) First said they were only looking at the UK not North America as they have made investments there and have had new contracts which has ment they have had to buy new equipment to carry out said contracts.
But as i said I could be wrong.
Investment in new vehicles / equipment is booked down as capital expenditure, which doesn't affect the initial operating profit/profit margin
As an example, look at First Groups UK bus division, profits have been falling for the past couple of years, during 2009-2011 period very little was invested in fleet replacements other than for Tfl contract wins, quality partnerships, park & ride contracts etc basically where First had no choice but to buy new. What First didn't spend on new vehicles had no bearing on the division's profits/percentage profit margins; the funds which would normally have been used for capital expenditure were being used to pay down group debt
I agree no mention has been made of selling off bits of the North American First Student/Transit businesses only from UK bus at present to raise the £100 Million, I was merely pointing out that a relatively small disposal i.e. few thousand vehicles from First Student/Transit would virtually go unnoticed due to the size of the fleet/area the operation covers, yet it would go a long way towards raising the quoted £100 Million, which the likes of selling Kiddi, Redditch & Northampton are never going to put a serious dent in......
Only the Greyhound shuttle between Cardiff and Swansea remains. The south coast services and the Scottish overnight services have all been withdrawn. Scania pbs withdrawn from nx services were never going to be a good starting point even with a refurb ?
I think there maybe some news about the sales but not sure when. There WILL be suprise but it could be a double edged sword, keep a keen eye on things.
Quote from: tank90 on December 05, 2012, 03:40:44 PM
I think there maybe some news about the sales but not sure when. There WILL be suprise but it could be a double edged sword, keep a keen eye on things.
I don't think that there will be anymore sales this side of Xmas at least, based on the slow progress made in UK bus disposals to date, one stockbroker is now forecasting that First Group will now raise a further £50 million in disposals during 2013, followed by a further £25 million during 2014. I think the next 6-12 months are critical in the UK bus division for underperforming subsidiary's to turn their performances around, however, if investment is limited in those businesses it may well be an uphill battle......
Still no news, it seems. I'm very interested to see if anything happens in the next few weeks or into the new year. Though at the same time, I hope I'm not building myself up for a disappointment and that, after all the wondering and guessing, nothing happens.
Nothing is going to happen by the sounds of it ...
Wyvern is looking to go Low Floor soonish, Kidderminster is to shut down with work moved to Redditch or Worcester ...
Not sure about other places, Northampton is still hanging on by its teeth.
I feel sorry for any first employee in one of the for sale areas look at barnstaple a buyer is found jobs were possibly being saved then OFT stuck there nose in sale fell through jobs lost
there will be some transfers from Leicester to Northampton in the new year, leicester will have some incoming single deckers from Potteries, sound to me like they are tarting both up a weeny bit making a package out the two and flogging them.
Quote from: Bruce_LOA400X on December 18, 2012, 12:35:46 AM
there will be some transfers from Leicester to Northampton in the new year, leicester will have some incoming single deckers from Potteries, sound to me like they are tarting both up a weeny bit making a package out the two and flogging them.
Leicester should fetch a decent if it was up for sale, with Northampton tagged on to Leicester First would at least get something for the operation instead of having pay the associated costs of closing it down
Quote from: Winston on December 18, 2012, 12:42:02 AM
Quote from: Bruce_LOA400X on December 18, 2012, 12:35:46 AM
there will be some transfers from Leicester to Northampton in the new year, leicester will have some incoming single deckers from Potteries, sound to me like they are tarting both up a weeny bit making a package out the two and flogging them.
Leicester should fetch a decent if it was up for sale, with Northampton tagged on to Leicester First would at least get something for the operation instead of having pay the associated costs of closing it down
Indeed, but I still think its going to be the only feasible option to help sell northampton. if First are to make a good amount of profit the odd profit making area will have to be sold off.
Quote from: Bruce_LOA400X on December 20, 2012, 11:33:40 PM
Indeed, but I still think its going to be the only feasible option to help sell northampton. if First are to make a good amount of profit the odd profit making area will have to be sold off.
Northampton is now a shadow of its former self from back when GRT bought it, Stagecoach seem to make money out of its Northampton operations judging by the regular investment it makes in new vehicles/growth of the business over the years. Surely another operator could turn around the First operation from loss making in to a profitable one once again & look to grow the business.... I would have thought that operating what's left of First Northampton out of the former James St depot must cost quite a bit in overheads to run & maintain for the size of the current fleet, smaller premises would be surely be more suitable.
I think First would receive a decent price it they offered Leicester & Northampton for sale as a package, it would also save First the cost of shutting down the Northampton business down if it fails to find a buyer.
First would do well to sell off a few smaller profitable operations to achieve the £100 million disposal target to keep shareholders happy, losing the profit off a couple 100-150 bus businesses will not make as much different to group profits as what could be achieved by improving the profit margins at one or two of the former PTE operations like Manchester / South Yorkshire / Glasgow etc by a couple of percent
Looks like there should be more progress coming soon, seems a sale could still be on the cards, pending DFT or whoever it is clearing the deal!
Quote from: jc on January 11, 2013, 03:06:49 PM
Looks like there should be more progress coming soon, seems a sale could still be on the cards, pending DFT or whoever it is clearing the deal!
JC,
Is that to do with the post on Midlandred.net about Rotala senior management having a guided tour of FMR Redditch depot?
It is very closely linked with that, however, i personally can see the traffic commissioner blocking the deal as it would eliminate the competition in the area, apart from the odd service from Stagecoach, Woosh, Johnsons, Greenbus and Dudley's
If First were to sell their Redditch depot to diamond, would that mean the vehicles allocated their would be transferred to diamond's fleet or would diamond have to get their own vehicles to operate the services. As i thought Rotala weren't making enough profit to buy vehicles let alone buy out first in redditch.
Quote from: Ash on January 11, 2013, 07:25:02 PM
If First were to sell their Redditch depot to diamond, would that mean the vehicles allocated their would be transferred to diamond's fleet or would diamond have to get their own vehicles to operate the services. As i thought Rotala weren't making enough profit to buy vehicles let alone buy out first in redditch.
Rotala still have around £9.2 million of the RBS £11 Million new banking facility left, but as Rotala haven't got a very good track record in terms of increasing group profit margins, I fail to see how taking on Redditch (which could be loss making) will be of benefit, other than they would eliminate the competition, this is all assuming a deal between Rotala & First would get passed by the Dft / MMC
I think we should wait to see what First are going to make public as I'm sure they are starting to get a little fustrated with us making links and prosumptions about what they are going to do with there Kidder and Redditch operations.
For all we know First may not be selling Redditch and Kidder after all and are looking at other depots in there network or are planning to sell the Depot sites at Redditch (to Diamond) and Kidder (to someone else) and open a new one in Bromsgrove to serve both Redditch and Kidder which would reduce there over heads and also mean they keep the number of buses and routes with some routes moving from Worcester (144) and Kidder (303) to allow this to happen. But I must stress that is something I have thought and really we should wait to hear what First are doing.
Quote from: tank90 on January 12, 2013, 04:50:56 PM
I think we should wait to see what First are going to make public as I'm sure they are starting to get a little fustrated with us making links and prosumptions about what they are going to do with there Kidder and Redditch operations.
For all we know First may not be selling Redditch and Kidder after all and are looking at other depots in there network or are planning to sell the Depot sites at Redditch (to Diamond) and Kidder (to someone else) and open a new one in Bromsgrove to serve both Redditch and Kidder which would reduce there over heads and also mean they keep the number of buses and routes with some routes moving from Worcester (144) and Kidder (303) to allow this to happen. But I must stress that is something I have thought and really we should wait to hear what First are doing.
I am sure first really don't care what we think or speculate
Quote from: richie on January 12, 2013, 05:45:13 PM
Quote from: tank90 on January 12, 2013, 04:50:56 PM
I think we should wait to see what First are going to make public as I'm sure they are starting to get a little fustrated with us making links and prosumptions about what they are going to do with there Kidder and Redditch operations.
For all we know First may not be selling Redditch and Kidder after all and are looking at other depots in there network or are planning to sell the Depot sites at Redditch (to Diamond) and Kidder (to someone else) and open a new one in Bromsgrove to serve both Redditch and Kidder which would reduce there over heads and also mean they keep the number of buses and routes with some routes moving from Worcester (144) and Kidder (303) to allow this to happen. But I must stress that is something I have thought and really we should wait to hear what First are doing.
I am sure first really don't care what we think or speculate
Richie, your suggestion of transferring some of NX's reserve fleet in to Wyvern could still be a possibility, there may well be a purpose built bus depot for sale / lease in KR soon
Quote from: tank90 on January 12, 2013, 04:50:56 PM
I think we should wait to see what First are going to make public as I'm sure they are starting to get a little fustrated with us making links and prosumptions about what they are going to do with there Kidder and Redditch operations.
For all we know First may not be selling Redditch and Kidder after all and are looking at other depots in there network or are planning to sell the Depot sites at Redditch (to Diamond) and Kidder (to someone else) and open a new one in Bromsgrove to serve both Redditch and Kidder which would reduce there over heads and also mean they keep the number of buses and routes with some routes moving from Worcester (144) and Kidder (303) to allow this to happen. But I must stress that is something I have thought and really we should wait to hear what First are doing.
I very much doubt FMR would be able to get funding from HQ to fund the building of a new depot even if would save on overheads, First have much bigger problems to deal with than Wyvern. The most cost effective option is to sell, closing down the operations will incur First redundancy costs etc
Quote from: Winston on January 12, 2013, 05:47:45 PM
Quote from: richie on January 12, 2013, 05:45:13 PM
Quote from: tank90 on January 12, 2013, 04:50:56 PM
I think we should wait to see what First are going to make public as I'm sure they are starting to get a little fustrated with us making links and prosumptions about what they are going to do with there Kidder and Redditch operations.
For all we know First may not be selling Redditch and Kidder after all and are looking at other depots in there network or are planning to sell the Depot sites at Redditch (to Diamond) and Kidder (to someone else) and open a new one in Bromsgrove to serve both Redditch and Kidder which would reduce there over heads and also mean they keep the number of buses and routes with some routes moving from Worcester (144) and Kidder (303) to allow this to happen. But I must stress that is something I have thought and really we should wait to hear what First are doing.
I am sure first really don't care what we think or speculate
Richie, your suggestion of transferring some of NX's reserve fleet in to Wyvern could still be a possibility, there may well be a purpose built bus depot for sale / lease in KR soon
Fingers crossed it has been a long time since NX have expanded its bus division.
Quote from: richie on January 12, 2013, 07:50:38 PM
Fingers crossed it has been a long time since NX have expanded its bus division.
[/quote]
I'll second that.... I'd like to see NX expand its UK bus division, NX are now in a much stronger financial position so financing any deals shouldn't be a problem
sounds all goo but the oft are really meesing thing all with all of first stuff they are trying to sell look at devon
Rotala have agreed to acquire both KR & RH operations from First Group for £1.5 Million, plus 36 vehicles they will both continue to run the services that are currently operated
http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/news/market-news/market-news-detail.html?announcementId=11467083
I don't see how Rotala agreeing buying Redditch will be passed by the Oft / MMC, the deal will lead to drastically reduced competition, frequency cuts of combined services & no doubt fare hikes, the deal includes 15 buses less than Wyvern currently operate, I wonder if this will be how many fewer buses will operate in Redditch when Red Diamond / First Wyvern operations are merged?
I that's only around £29 Million that First have now raised towards the £100 Million worth of UK bus disposals
Page 1
Acquisition
Released : 24/01/2013
RNS Number : 2502W
Rotala PLC
24 January 2013
24 January 2013
Rotala plc
("Rotala" or "the Company")
Acquisition in Worcestershire
Rotala is pleased to announce the acquisition from First Group Plc ("First") of certain of their bus
operations in Worcestershire. Rotala will acquire, for a cash consideration of £1.5 million, two freehold
depots, one in Kidderminster and the other in Redditch, 36 vehicles, and various items of plant and
equipment, and will continue to run the services that First currently operate from these depots (the
"Acquisition").
The Kidderminster depot comprises a site of some two acres and was purpose built in 2001. It can
accommodate up to 60 vehicles. The Redditch depot, built about 35 years ago, has a slightly smaller
useable area and can accommodate about 50 vehicles. In the year ended 30 June 2012, these depots
reported combined revenues of approximately £5.2 million and an operating loss of £0.27 million. They
employ about 120 staff.
The Acquisition will enable the Company to expand and consolidate its position in those areas of
Worcestershire which are contiguous to its main areas of operation in the Birmingham conurbation. By
integrating these acquired depots into its current depot network, the Company will be able to take
advantage of operating efficiencies generated by the Acquisition.
The Acquisition is not expected to have a material impact on earnings in the current financial year. Once
the integration of operations and overheads has been fully implemented, the Acquisition is expected to
have a beneficial effect on earnings in the following years. On the basis of the information available at Present the acquision is expected to generate a small amount of negative goodwill
Note in the Rotala announcement it says Kidderminster garage is capable of holding 60 vehicles. The Estimates of 100 and 160 made last month seem to be a little over the top!
Kidderminster is possible to be OKd but Redditch is more than likely to get told no.
I think the remaining lances and other step stuff might get withdrawn with possibly the P reg Darts too
Are the presidents Euro 3 or Euro 4 compliant?
Quote from: Tony on January 24, 2013, 08:50:19 AM
Note in the Rotala announcement it says Kidderminster garage is capable of holding 60 vehicles. The Estimates of 100 and 160 made last month seem to be a little over the top!
Rotala would have to virtually triple the services operated to fill KR
Why only 36 vehicles when I believe the current allocation of the 2 garages is 60?
Quote from: midlandred2003 on January 24, 2013, 11:29:37 AM
Why only 36 vehicles when I believe the current allocation of the 2 garages is 60?
I think the current Wyvern combined fleet for RH (31) & KR (20) is around 51 buses, not doubt if the deal gets the go ahead by the Oft Rotala will be able to rationalize the combined fleet once the competition is out of the way, which my account for some of the difference. Plus Rotala currently have plenty of excess Dart SLF's spare that are newer than what First currently operate out of KR
How long until WR & HD go now that the Wyvern network will be broken?
Yes I had failed to add diamonds current allocation at redditch,so thats about right,but surely the OFT will step in regarding Redditch?
Quote from: midlandred2003 on January 24, 2013, 12:39:21 PM
Yes I had failed to add diamonds current allocation at redditch,so thats about right,but surely the OFT will step in regarding Redditch?
I don't see how they can't get involved, it will result in a monopoly.... You would think however, that Rotala would have got assurances from the Oft that the deal wouldn't be investigated first?
Rotala are full of suprises but look at Black diamond still have a lot of knackered dennis buses and now buying up other operations looks like black diamond will lose out again as well as Brum can't comment on First but a lot of the good stuff they have will get shifted quickly away from Redditch and Kidderminster. Wonder how NX are feeling? Still would question any OFT involvement Red diamond would be quite big as both would be absorbed into it. But you still have Whittles not a complete monopoly in Worcestershire as a whole plus First are still dominant in Worcester. A possible sale with no OFT of both areas. Help me out if there any things I have missed?
Quote from: Discodave on January 24, 2013, 02:26:03 PM
Rotala are full of suprises but look at Black diamond still have a lot of knackered dennis buses and now buying up other operations looks like black diamond will lose out again as well as Brum can't comment on First but a lot of the good stuff they have will get shifted quickly away from Redditch and Kidderminster. Wonder how NX are feeling? Still would question any OFT involvement Red diamond would be quite big as both would be absorbed into it. But you still have Whittles not a complete monopoly in Worcestershire as a whole plus First are still dominant in Worcester. A possible sale with no OFT of both areas. Help me out if there any things I have missed?
I guess NX weren't that interested in the finish, if they had of been they would have agreed a deal over Rotala. I thought NX may have bought those operations to compete against Rotala in other areas, but seems not....
I still don't think Rotala buying Redditch is a done deal yet.....
I have a funny feeling that First aren't getting rid of Redditch this time around as Diamond would have bought all the Redditch services bar main 26, 50A,52, 59, X50, 158 and 350 plus only few other services so I can't see it happening some how. And if Essex had been more on the ball with London Midlands balls up on cross city Redditch coul dhave made more with an extended operating time for the 146 with a 146 fare that was cheaper than the train.
Quote from: tank90 on January 24, 2013, 06:34:12 PM
I have a funny feeling that First aren't getting rid of Redditch this time around as Diamond would have bought all the Redditch services bar main 26, 50A,52, 59, X50, 158 and 350 plus only few other services so I can't see it happening some how. And if Essex had been more on the ball with London Midlands balls up on cross city Redditch coul dhave made more with an extended operating time for the 146 with a 146 fare that was cheaper than the train.
Do you realise its just been sold??!!
Quote from: tank90 on January 24, 2013, 06:34:12 PM
I have a funny feeling that First aren't getting rid of Redditch this time around as Diamond would have bought all the Redditch services bar main 26, 50A,52, 59, X50, 158 and 350 plus only few other services so I can't see it happening some how. And if Essex had been more on the ball with London Midlands balls up on cross city Redditch coul dhave made more with an extended operating time for the 146 with a 146 fare that was cheaper than the train.
The deal has already been agreed unless the Oft block the Redditch takeover
I'll be interested to see what happens next. Clearly, if the oft dont block the sale, rotala should be able to restructure, maybe close one redditch depot and make savings by reducing the workforce-something they certainly havent ruled out doing in kidderminster and rationalising the network. Clearly, many members of the fleet are quite youthful-but the question is does rotala want the presidents and the e300s when in the case of the enviros nowhere else runs them. If the sale goes through, it would make sense to sell the presidents and possibly the e300s-nasty buses-and cascade b7rles up from wessex as replacements. I wonder if rotala will remove the b7rles from the for sale list now so as they can be used in redditch. Potentially if the sales arent blocked, rotala could make some pretty decent money in redditch and kidderminster and i imagine that if hereford and worcester ever appear on the for sale list then rotala will try and buy them. I must say im very pleased and i hope that the oft see sense and realise that this acquisition is in the interests of passengers and I hope rotala make a good job of integrating first's services and its own services to create a good network.
By the looks of it theres political support for the change
http://www.redditchstandard.co.uk/2013/01/24/news-Service-merge-after-bus-depot-buyout-61320.html
The deal hasn't actually taken place yet, not due to OFT.
This is an email I have received from Rotala tonight
'Answers to the question flying around on email's;
Rotala have at this point exchanged contracts with FMR for the 2 depots. We need to undertake TUPE consultations, once this has been completed the transaction will go ahead.
So in essence the business is still at the moment owned by First Group Plc'
It's just occurred to me that First and Diamond only compete on two corridors in Redditch. So while the OFT are bound to be interested, I wouldn't say it's a foregone conclusion that they will block the deal.
Especially not seeing as Johnsons, Woosh, Stagecoach all operate in
Quote from: Peter123 on January 24, 2013, 07:49:57 PM
I'll be interested to see what happens next. Clearly, if the oft dont block the sale, rotala should be able to restructure, maybe close one redditch depot and make savings by reducing the workforce-something they certainly havent ruled out doing in kidderminster and rationalising the network. Clearly, many members of the fleet are quite youthful-but the question is does rotala want the presidents and the e300s when in the case of the enviros nowhere else runs them. If the sale goes through, it would make sense to sell the presidents and possibly the e300s-nasty buses-and cascade b7rles up from wessex as replacements. I wonder if rotala will remove the b7rles from the for sale list now so as they can be used in redditch. Potentially if the sales arent blocked, rotala could make some pretty decent money in redditch and kidderminster and i imagine that if hereford and worcester ever appear on the for sale list then rotala will try and buy them. I must say im very pleased and i hope that the oft see sense and realise that this acquisition is in the interests of passengers and I hope rotala make a good job of integrating first's services and its own services to create a good network.
Peter123,
How will the sale be in the interest of passengers? If the deal goes ahead Rotala will no doubt close Church Road and move its Red Diamond fleet in tot he former First depot, at present both operators compete at 10 min frequencies on the 57/58, once Rotala takeover & the competition is out the way, no doubt the combined Pvr of the 57/58 will be cut, overall frequencies reduced as one less operator plus little incentive to offer special promotional fares as currently offered, Rotala also don't have a very good record of investing in new vehicles for its Diamond business, nor do they make the profits to re-invest in fleet replacement. The deal will also see engineers / office staff due to overlap of functions & drivers surplus to requirement due to fewer buses allocated as a whole
Quote from: Tony on January 24, 2013, 07:55:51 PM
The deal hasn't actually taken place yet, not due to OFT.
This is an email I have received from Rotala tonight
'Answers to the question flying around on email's;
Rotala have at this point exchanged contracts with FMR for the 2 depots. We need to undertake TUPE consultations, once this has been completed the transaction will go ahead.
So in essence the business is still at the moment owned by First Group Plc'
Realistically its a done deal unless the Oft block it, I'm surprised NX weren't interested seen as though it was sold for a mere £1.5 million, much of that must be the value of the two depots
Quote from: Winston on January 24, 2013, 08:22:44 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on January 24, 2013, 07:49:57 PM
I'll be interested to see what happens next. Clearly, if the oft dont block the sale, rotala should be able to restructure, maybe close one redditch depot and make savings by reducing the workforce-something they certainly havent ruled out doing in kidderminster and rationalising the network. Clearly, many members of the fleet are quite youthful-but the question is does rotala want the presidents and the e300s when in the case of the enviros nowhere else runs them. If the sale goes through, it would make sense to sell the presidents and possibly the e300s-nasty buses-and cascade b7rles up from wessex as replacements. I wonder if rotala will remove the b7rles from the for sale list now so as they can be used in redditch. Potentially if the sales arent blocked, rotala could make some pretty decent money in redditch and kidderminster and i imagine that if hereford and worcester ever appear on the for sale list then rotala will try and buy them. I must say im very pleased and i hope that the oft see sense and realise that this acquisition is in the interests of passengers and I hope rotala make a good job of integrating first's services and its own services to create a good network.
Peter123,
How will the sale be in the interest of passengers? If the deal goes ahead Rotala will no doubt close Church Road and move its Red Diamond fleet in tot he former First depot, at present both operators compete at 10 min frequencies on the 57/58, once Rotala takeover & the competition is out the way, no doubt the combined Pvr of the 57/58 will be cut, overall frequencies reduced as one less operator plus little incentive to offer special promotional fares as currently offered, Rotala also don't have a very good record of investing in new vehicles for its Diamond business, nor do they make the profits to re-invest in fleet replacement. The deal will also see engineers / office staff due to overlap of functions & drivers surplus to requirement due to fewer buses allocated as a whole
It is in the interests of passengers having a more co-ordinated rationalised network where one pass covers all redditch routes. Its the same argument we saw floating round when b and h bought stagecoach's operations in brighton and look at brighton now! Top class transport network-rotala will be able to transform the business into something really good if the deal isnt blocked.
Quote from: Peter123 on January 24, 2013, 08:51:23 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 24, 2013, 08:22:44 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on January 24, 2013, 07:49:57 PM
I'll be interested to see what happens next. Clearly, if the oft dont block the sale, rotala should be able to restructure, maybe close one redditch depot and make savings by reducing the workforce-something they certainly havent ruled out doing in kidderminster and rationalising the network. Clearly, many members of the fleet are quite youthful-but the question is does rotala want the presidents and the e300s when in the case of the enviros nowhere else runs them. If the sale goes through, it would make sense to sell the presidents and possibly the e300s-nasty buses-and cascade b7rles up from wessex as replacements. I wonder if rotala will remove the b7rles from the for sale list now so as they can be used in redditch. Potentially if the sales arent blocked, rotala could make some pretty decent money in redditch and kidderminster and i imagine that if hereford and worcester ever appear on the for sale list then rotala will try and buy them. I must say im very pleased and i hope that the oft see sense and realise that this acquisition is in the interests of passengers and I hope rotala make a good job of integrating first's services and its own services to create a good network.
Peter123,
How will the sale be in the interest of passengers? If the deal goes ahead Rotala will no doubt close Church Road and move its Red Diamond fleet in tot he former First depot, at present both operators compete at 10 min frequencies on the 57/58, once Rotala takeover & the competition is out the way, no doubt the combined Pvr of the 57/58 will be cut, overall frequencies reduced as one less operator plus little incentive to offer special promotional fares as currently offered, Rotala also don't have a very good record of investing in new vehicles for its Diamond business, nor do they make the profits to re-invest in fleet replacement. The deal will also see engineers / office staff due to overlap of functions & drivers surplus to requirement due to fewer buses allocated as a whole
It is in the interests of passengers having a more co-ordinated rationalised network where one pass covers all redditch routes. Its the same argument we saw floating round when b and h bought stagecoach's operations in brighton and look at brighton now! Top class transport network-rotala will be able to transform the business into something really good if the deal isnt blocked.
But passengers already have that with the First network combined with increased frequencies/special fare promotions due to the two competing companies..... I think you're setting your sights/expectations a little high, it is Rotala we are talking about, they haven't done anything with the former Go West Midlands business and group profit margins are very poor, hence the need to issue additional shares or take on further debt for fleet/expansion
Quote from: Winston on January 24, 2013, 09:00:39 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on January 24, 2013, 08:51:23 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 24, 2013, 08:22:44 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on January 24, 2013, 07:49:57 PM
I'll be interested to see what happens next. Clearly, if the oft dont block the sale, rotala should be able to restructure, maybe close one redditch depot and make savings by reducing the workforce-something they certainly havent ruled out doing in kidderminster and rationalising the network. Clearly, many members of the fleet are quite youthful-but the question is does rotala want the presidents and the e300s when in the case of the enviros nowhere else runs them. If the sale goes through, it would make sense to sell the presidents and possibly the e300s-nasty buses-and cascade b7rles up from wessex as replacements. I wonder if rotala will remove the b7rles from the for sale list now so as they can be used in redditch. Potentially if the sales arent blocked, rotala could make some pretty decent money in redditch and kidderminster and i imagine that if hereford and worcester ever appear on the for sale list then rotala will try and buy them. I must say im very pleased and i hope that the oft see sense and realise that this acquisition is in the interests of passengers and I hope rotala make a good job of integrating first's services and its own services to create a good network.
Peter123,
How will the sale be in the interest of passengers? If the deal goes ahead Rotala will no doubt close Church Road and move its Red Diamond fleet in tot he former First depot, at present both operators compete at 10 min frequencies on the 57/58, once Rotala takeover & the competition is out the way, no doubt the combined Pvr of the 57/58 will be cut, overall frequencies reduced as one less operator plus little incentive to offer special promotional fares as currently offered, Rotala also don't have a very good record of investing in new vehicles for its Diamond business, nor do they make the profits to re-invest in fleet replacement. The deal will also see engineers / office staff due to overlap of functions & drivers surplus to requirement due to fewer buses allocated as a whole
It is in the interests of passengers having a more co-ordinated rationalised network where one pass covers all redditch routes. Its the same argument we saw floating round when b and h bought stagecoach's operations in brighton and look at brighton now! Top class transport network-rotala will be able to transform the business into something really good if the deal isnt blocked.
But passengers already have that with the First network combined with increased frequencies/special fare promotions due to the two competing companies..... I think you're setting your sights/expectations a little high, it is Rotala we are talking about, they haven't done anything with the former Go West Midlands business and group profit margins are very poor, hence the need to issue additional shares or take on further debt for fleet/expansion
They havent done anything with Go West Midlands. Other than the fact that there have been a lot of new buses, more newish secondhand ones, increase in profitability and thats not progress from an upstart group who succeeded where the uk number 5 failed. I personally call that astonishing progress.
Quote from: Peter123 on January 24, 2013, 09:16:22 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 24, 2013, 09:00:39 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on January 24, 2013, 08:51:23 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 24, 2013, 08:22:44 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on January 24, 2013, 07:49:57 PM
I'll be interested to see what happens next. Clearly, if the oft dont block the sale, rotala should be able to restructure, maybe close one redditch depot and make savings by reducing the workforce-something they certainly havent ruled out doing in kidderminster and rationalising the network. Clearly, many members of the fleet are quite youthful-but the question is does rotala want the presidents and the e300s when in the case of the enviros nowhere else runs them. If the sale goes through, it would make sense to sell the presidents and possibly the e300s-nasty buses-and cascade b7rles up from wessex as replacements. I wonder if rotala will remove the b7rles from the for sale list now so as they can be used in redditch. Potentially if the sales arent blocked, rotala could make some pretty decent money in redditch and kidderminster and i imagine that if hereford and worcester ever appear on the for sale list then rotala will try and buy them. I must say im very pleased and i hope that the oft see sense and realise that this acquisition is in the interests of passengers and I hope rotala make a good job of integrating first's services and its own services to create a good network.
Peter123,
How will the sale be in the interest of passengers? If the deal goes ahead Rotala will no doubt close Church Road and move its Red Diamond fleet in tot he former First depot, at present both operators compete at 10 min frequencies on the 57/58, once Rotala takeover & the competition is out the way, no doubt the combined Pvr of the 57/58 will be cut, overall frequencies reduced as one less operator plus little incentive to offer special promotional fares as currently offered, Rotala also don't have a very good record of investing in new vehicles for its Diamond business, nor do they make the profits to re-invest in fleet replacement. The deal will also see engineers / office staff due to overlap of functions & drivers surplus to requirement due to fewer buses allocated as a whole
It is in the interests of passengers having a more co-ordinated rationalised network where one pass covers all redditch routes. Its the same argument we saw floating round when b and h bought stagecoach's operations in brighton and look at brighton now! Top class transport network-rotala will be able to transform the business into something really good if the deal isnt blocked.
But passengers already have that with the First network combined with increased frequencies/special fare promotions due to the two competing companies..... I think you're setting your sights/expectations a little high, it is Rotala we are talking about, they haven't done anything with the former Go West Midlands business and group profit margins are very poor, hence the need to issue additional shares or take on further debt for fleet/expansion
They havent done anything with Go West Midlands. Other than the fact that there have been a lot of new buses, more newish secondhand ones, increase in profitability and thats not progress from an upstart group who succeeded where the uk number 5 failed. I personally call that astonishing progress.
A lot of new buses? Yes but most of them have now left the fleet, the newer second hand ones are just about keeping the average age of the fleet about the same as it was
Quote from: Tony on January 24, 2013, 09:22:00 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on January 24, 2013, 09:16:22 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 24, 2013, 09:00:39 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on January 24, 2013, 08:51:23 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 24, 2013, 08:22:44 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on January 24, 2013, 07:49:57 PM
I'll be interested to see what happens next. Clearly, if the oft dont block the sale, rotala should be able to restructure, maybe close one redditch depot and make savings by reducing the workforce-something they certainly havent ruled out doing in kidderminster and rationalising the network. Clearly, many members of the fleet are quite youthful-but the question is does rotala want the presidents and the e300s when in the case of the enviros nowhere else runs them. If the sale goes through, it would make sense to sell the presidents and possibly the e300s-nasty buses-and cascade b7rles up from wessex as replacements. I wonder if rotala will remove the b7rles from the for sale list now so as they can be used in redditch. Potentially if the sales arent blocked, rotala could make some pretty decent money in redditch and kidderminster and i imagine that if hereford and worcester ever appear on the for sale list then rotala will try and buy them. I must say im very pleased and i hope that the oft see sense and realise that this acquisition is in the interests of passengers and I hope rotala make a good job of integrating first's services and its own services to create a good network.
Peter123,
How will the sale be in the interest of passengers? If the deal goes ahead Rotala will no doubt close Church Road and move its Red Diamond fleet in tot he former First depot, at present both operators compete at 10 min frequencies on the 57/58, once Rotala takeover & the competition is out the way, no doubt the combined Pvr of the 57/58 will be cut, overall frequencies reduced as one less operator plus little incentive to offer special promotional fares as currently offered, Rotala also don't have a very good record of investing in new vehicles for its Diamond business, nor do they make the profits to re-invest in fleet replacement. The deal will also see engineers / office staff due to overlap of functions & drivers surplus to requirement due to fewer buses allocated as a whole
It is in the interests of passengers having a more co-ordinated rationalised network where one pass covers all redditch routes. Its the same argument we saw floating round when b and h bought stagecoach's operations in brighton and look at brighton now! Top class transport network-rotala will be able to transform the business into something really good if the deal isnt blocked.
But passengers already have that with the First network combined with increased frequencies/special fare promotions due to the two competing companies..... I think you're setting your sights/expectations a little high, it is Rotala we are talking about, they haven't done anything with the former Go West Midlands business and group profit margins are very poor, hence the need to issue additional shares or take on further debt for fleet/expansion
They havent done anything with Go West Midlands. Other than the fact that there have been a lot of new buses, more newish secondhand ones, increase in profitability and thats not progress from an upstart group who succeeded where the uk number 5 failed. I personally call that astonishing progress.
A lot of new buses? Yes but most of them have now left the fleet, the newer second hand ones are just about keeping the average age of the fleet about the same as it was
Few would question that the overall quality of the operation is better when compared to go ahead and im pretty sure the average age is at least slightly lower than it was
I hope Diamond will now issue printed timetables in Worcestershire. I have never been able to locate Diamond timetables in Redditch and printed information is non-existent from the County Council.
Now they could produce some proper local guides for each town to actually sell the local services to the public who want information that they can carry round with them.
Quote from: Peter123 on January 24, 2013, 09:16:22 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 24, 2013, 09:00:39 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on January 24, 2013, 08:51:23 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 24, 2013, 08:22:44 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on January 24, 2013, 07:49:57 PM
I'll be interested to see what happens next. Clearly, if the oft dont block the sale, rotala should be able to restructure, maybe close one redditch depot and make savings by reducing the workforce-something they certainly havent ruled out doing in kidderminster and rationalising the network. Clearly, many members of the fleet are quite youthful-but the question is does rotala want the presidents and the e300s when in the case of the enviros nowhere else runs them. If the sale goes through, it would make sense to sell the presidents and possibly the e300s-nasty buses-and cascade b7rles up from wessex as replacements. I wonder if rotala will remove the b7rles from the for sale list now so as they can be used in redditch. Potentially if the sales arent blocked, rotala could make some pretty decent money in redditch and kidderminster and i imagine that if hereford and worcester ever appear on the for sale list then rotala will try and buy them. I must say im very pleased and i hope that the oft see sense and realise that this acquisition is in the interests of passengers and I hope rotala make a good job of integrating first's services and its own services to create a good network.
Peter123,
How will the sale be in the interest of passengers? If the deal goes ahead Rotala will no doubt close Church Road and move its Red Diamond fleet in tot he former First depot, at present both operators compete at 10 min frequencies on the 57/58, once Rotala takeover & the competition is out the way, no doubt the combined Pvr of the 57/58 will be cut, overall frequencies reduced as one less operator plus little incentive to offer special promotional fares as currently offered, Rotala also don't have a very good record of investing in new vehicles for its Diamond business, nor do they make the profits to re-invest in fleet replacement. The deal will also see engineers / office staff due to overlap of functions & drivers surplus to requirement due to fewer buses allocated as a whole
It is in the interests of passengers having a more co-ordinated rationalised network where one pass covers all redditch routes. Its the same argument we saw floating round when b and h bought stagecoach's operations in brighton and look at brighton now! Top class transport network-rotala will be able to transform the business into something really good if the deal isnt blocked.
But passengers already have that with the First network combined with increased frequencies/special fare promotions due to the two competing companies..... I think you're setting your sights/expectations a little high, it is Rotala we are talking about, they haven't done anything with the former Go West Midlands business and group profit margins are very poor, hence the need to issue additional shares or take on further debt for fleet/expansion
They havent done anything with Go West Midlands. Other than the fact that there have been a lot of new buses, more newish secondhand ones, increase in profitability and thats not progress from an upstart group who succeeded where the uk number 5 failed. I personally call that astonishing progress.
A lot of new buses delivered, but then move on or are sold very quickly without replacement (9 x 58 plate B7RLE/Plaxton Centro's that went to Wessex when the 09 plate Centro's arrived and the 23 x MAN / MCV's sold to New Zealand without replacement)
Rotala Group % profit margins have barely changed overt he last four years at around 3.5%, this is despite all the acquisitions & a significant increase in turnover
Quote from: Peter123 on January 24, 2013, 09:25:51 PM
Quote from: Tony on January 24, 2013, 09:22:00 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on January 24, 2013, 09:16:22 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 24, 2013, 09:00:39 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on January 24, 2013, 08:51:23 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 24, 2013, 08:22:44 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on January 24, 2013, 07:49:57 PM
I'll be interested to see what happens next. Clearly, if the oft dont block the sale, rotala should be able to restructure, maybe close one redditch depot and make savings by reducing the workforce-something they certainly havent ruled out doing in kidderminster and rationalising the network. Clearly, many members of the fleet are quite youthful-but the question is does rotala want the presidents and the e300s when in the case of the enviros nowhere else runs them. If the sale goes through, it would make sense to sell the presidents and possibly the e300s-nasty buses-and cascade b7rles up from wessex as replacements. I wonder if rotala will remove the b7rles from the for sale list now so as they can be used in redditch. Potentially if the sales arent blocked, rotala could make some pretty decent money in redditch and kidderminster and i imagine that if hereford and worcester ever appear on the for sale list then rotala will try and buy them. I must say im very pleased and i hope that the oft see sense and realise that this acquisition is in the interests of passengers and I hope rotala make a good job of integrating first's services and its own services to create a good network.
Peter123,
How will the sale be in the interest of passengers? If the deal goes ahead Rotala will no doubt close Church Road and move its Red Diamond fleet in tot he former First depot, at present both operators compete at 10 min frequencies on the 57/58, once Rotala takeover & the competition is out the way, no doubt the combined Pvr of the 57/58 will be cut, overall frequencies reduced as one less operator plus little incentive to offer special promotional fares as currently offered, Rotala also don't have a very good record of investing in new vehicles for its Diamond business, nor do they make the profits to re-invest in fleet replacement. The deal will also see engineers / office staff due to overlap of functions & drivers surplus to requirement due to fewer buses allocated as a whole
It is in the interests of passengers having a more co-ordinated rationalised network where one pass covers all redditch routes. Its the same argument we saw floating round when b and h bought stagecoach's operations in brighton and look at brighton now! Top class transport network-rotala will be able to transform the business into something really good if the deal isnt blocked.
But passengers already have that with the First network combined with increased frequencies/special fare promotions due to the two competing companies..... I think you're setting your sights/expectations a little high, it is Rotala we are talking about, they haven't done anything with the former Go West Midlands business and group profit margins are very poor, hence the need to issue additional shares or take on further debt for fleet/expansion
They havent done anything with Go West Midlands. Other than the fact that there have been a lot of new buses, more newish secondhand ones, increase in profitability and thats not progress from an upstart group who succeeded where the uk number 5 failed. I personally call that astonishing progress.
A lot of new buses? Yes but most of them have now left the fleet, the newer second hand ones are just about keeping the average age of the fleet about the same as it was
Few would question that the overall quality of the operation is better when compared to go ahead and im pretty sure the average age is at least slightly lower than it was
Go-ahead never really give it a proper go... they should have stuck at it with what they ended up selling it for
Going back to a earlier comment about possible buses being purchased I would think that Redditch's Enviros will be transferred to Worcester before takeover to replace Lances and Darts there. Worcester already has a lot of these buses so it would make sense. They arent bad buses to drive most of the time, good heaters and excellent in snowy weather because they are light for a full sized single decker.
Just by observations and what I hear is that it is blue diamond that struggles (forgetting the signature services) with the 10 being withdrawn in March and they have very few commercial services left with mainly the 16/17/50. All those services use relatively new buses which has had some influence because of the emission ruling which has left black diamond with using 15 year old darts on key services such as the 4 and 301 as well as other popular local West Bromwich service such as the 40/42/43. Buses have been acquired such as the ones form Your bus but seem to be taking a very long time to enter service and the buses sold such as r530yrp seem to be taking a long time to leave the fleet even though being sold for a while. In terms of competition on services such as the 56 and 002 where there is no direct competition cheaper return fares less than the cost of 2 singles are available so with red diamond I would be surprised if all offers were to be withdrawn completely. Going past Long acre today and last time i visited tividale there has been a large accumulation of darts all parked up some of which are V and W reg and like somebody has mentioned are newer than the vehicles that are currently being used by First in some cases.
To be able to handle the school contracts Diamond will have no choice in keeping the presidents as they do fill on most if not all school services the are used on, this incluedes the DD 57 and 58 for RSA Arrow Vale Acadamey.
As for the E300 they dont rattel all that much they are ok for the passenger too. The only real down side for Redditch is that i can see the E300's and Volvos going to tiviadale for work in the black country and birmingham leaving Redditch with Darts and Presidents then give Darts and solos to Kidder.
If Diamond do have an OFT free travel in signing the contract to buy Redditch then I think they need to
1 Look at the 146, run it later and try and beat LM on fares then this way LM drivers and train Managers can do what they like or at least match Johnsons and The Green Buses fares,
2 sort the 143 out, if it is going to go Redditch Studley Redditch Bromsgrove then cut out Webheath and go via Headless Cross a long the old route,
3 extand the 64 to webheath giving it a 30 min frecquncey this would allow the 50 and 51 to be merged into one route thus serving Batchley and Brockhill better,
4 start talks with the Alex to look at the bus stop so that the 55/56/57/58/59/143/247/350 (and any other I have missed out) can use it with ease so if three come at once passengers can still board from the pavement not get left behind or have to walk out into the road,
5 look at stand departure points ie let them make sense so that there istnt half a dozen on one stand then 2 on one just behind it,
6 extand the 70A to Feckenham and be done with it then have a review and renumber it to something shorter like 71,
7 merge the numbering of the 60 and 63 to the 60 saves the hesall of having to program the 60 and 63 in,
8 Look at ALL the drivers to see which are better at time keeping, as First has a habit of having fairy tale timetables! then those that are the worst affenders put them on services that would allow a few mishaps or retrain them or give them a golden hand shake,
9 Rebrand the buses quickly, either by using the red Red Diamond livery or the White one but dont go for a mix of all four!
and 10 dont be to hastant in getting rid of the E300s as they are ideal for Redditch and afew of Kidder routes and msybe take some of the wessex volvos off the forsale list and brand them for the 4 so Black Diamond have some better buses.
oh and 11 give Whittles a shock in Kidder Ie bid for the routes don't just half heartedly go for them.
Has the deal officially gone through now and rotala have purchased First's Redditch and Kidderminster depots and 36 vehicles as it was posted by Preston bus on their facebook page 6 hours ago. Also does anybody know exactly when the changeover will begin and what vehicles from first will move to diamond.
Quote from: Ash on January 25, 2013, 05:00:52 PM
Has the deal officially gone through now and rotala have purchased First's Redditch and Kidderminster depots and 36 vehicles as it was posted by Preston bus on their facebook page 6 hours ago. Also does anybody know exactly when the changeover will begin and what vehicles from first will move to diamond.
No, contracts have been exchanged only as Tony confirmed. If the Oft get involved the deal may not go ahead as per Stagecoach announcing that they had agreed to purchase Barnstable
Quote from: Winston on January 25, 2013, 05:23:21 PM
Quote from: Ash on January 25, 2013, 05:00:52 PM
Has the deal officially gone through now and rotala have purchased First's Redditch and Kidderminster depots and 36 vehicles as it was posted by Preston bus on their facebook page 6 hours ago. Also does anybody know exactly when the changeover will begin and what vehicles from first will move to diamond.
No, contracts have been exchanged only as Tony confirmed. If the Oft get involved the deal may not go ahead as per Stagecoach announcing that they had agreed to purchase Barnstable
Thats why I put this comment on here as I thought it was a bit premature announcing an acquisition if it does not go through.
Quote from: Ash on January 25, 2013, 05:39:25 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 25, 2013, 05:23:21 PM
Quote from: Ash on January 25, 2013, 05:00:52 PM
Has the deal officially gone through now and rotala have purchased First's Redditch and Kidderminster depots and 36 vehicles as it was posted by Preston bus on their facebook page 6 hours ago. Also does anybody know exactly when the changeover will begin and what vehicles from first will move to diamond.
No, contracts have been exchanged only as Tony confirmed. If the Oft get involved the deal may not go ahead as per Stagecoach announcing that they had agreed to purchase Barnstable
Thats why I put this comment on here as I thought it was a bit premature announcing an acquisition if it does not go through.
As contracts have been signed, I assume First have committed to selling to Rotala and a third party couldn't now come in with a higher offer. The only thing that would stop the deal going ahead is if the Oft block the deal or impose undertakings such that Rotala decide to pull out
Quote from: Winston on January 25, 2013, 06:23:40 PM
Quote from: Ash on January 25, 2013, 05:39:25 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 25, 2013, 05:23:21 PM
Quote from: Ash on January 25, 2013, 05:00:52 PM
Has the deal officially gone through now and rotala have purchased First's Redditch and Kidderminster depots and 36 vehicles as it was posted by Preston bus on their facebook page 6 hours ago. Also does anybody know exactly when the changeover will begin and what vehicles from first will move to diamond.
No, contracts have been exchanged only as Tony confirmed. If the Oft get involved the deal may not go ahead as per Stagecoach announcing that they had agreed to purchase Barnstable
Thats why I put this comment on here as I thought it was a bit premature announcing an acquisition if it does not go through.
As contracts have been signed, I assume First have committed to selling to Rotala and a third party couldn't now come in with a higher offer. The only thing that would stop the deal going ahead is if the Oft block the deal or impose undertakings such that Rotala decide to pull out
Thanks Winston, gives me a better understanding now, appreciate your reply.
can first change the allocations at redditch or kidderminster still as i have seen a ex wr park and ride bus on kr locals , i have them all down as at hereford
Quote from: bowler on January 26, 2013, 12:18:44 PM
can first change the allocations at redditch or kidderminster still as i have seen a ex wr park and ride bus on kr locals , i have them all down as at hereford
Yes, as both garages & vehicles are still owned by First
Quote from: Winston on January 26, 2013, 05:53:54 PM
Quote from: bowler on January 26, 2013, 12:18:44 PM
can first change the allocations at redditch or kidderminster still as i have seen a ex wr park and ride bus on kr locals , i have them all down as at hereford
Yes, as both garages & vehicles are still owned by First
The contract drawn up between First an Rotala will specify which 36 vehicles are involved, it is just it may not be vehicles currently allocated to Kidderminster or Redditch!
Quote from: Tony on January 26, 2013, 06:01:06 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 26, 2013, 05:53:54 PM
Quote from: bowler on January 26, 2013, 12:18:44 PM
can first change the allocations at redditch or kidderminster still as i have seen a ex wr park and ride bus on kr locals , i have them all down as at hereford
Yes, as both garages & vehicles are still owned by First
The contract drawn up between First an Rotala will specify which 36 vehicles are involved, it is just it may not be vehicles currently allocated to Kidderminster or Redditch!
There are suggestions that Rotala may not be taking the 19 x 53/54 plate Enviro 300s currently allocated to Redditch, can anyone confirm or deny?
Id personally be surprised if first let the e300s go as they are fairly newish buses and rotala will hardly be paying a fortune for the operation. I imagine first will use it as a chance to get rid of old darts, old lances, citybuses, the olympian.... stuff like that. Tho having said that, the wiagan fleet included some newer buses, but then again stagecoach did pay considerably more money for it
Quote from: Peter123 on January 26, 2013, 09:38:59 PM
Id personally be surprised if first let the e300s go as they are fairly newish buses and rotala will hardly be paying a fortune for the operation. I imagine first will use it as a chance to get rid of old darts, old lances, citybuses, the olympian.... stuff like that. Tho having said that, the wiagan fleet included some newer buses, but then again stagecoach did pay considerably more money for it
That's what I was thinking, it would be a good opportunity for First to upgrade the fleets they are retaining at HD & WR at no cost.
As Red Diamond already operate newer 08 plate B7RLE's on the 57/58, I expect these will still be used after the takeover / merging of the two fleets
I think Rotala have got both operations/garages for a bargain price..... still surprised NX weren't interested at the price First have let it go for
Quote from: Winston on January 26, 2013, 09:21:31 PM
Quote from: Tony on January 26, 2013, 06:01:06 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 26, 2013, 05:53:54 PM
Quote from: bowler on January 26, 2013, 12:18:44 PM
can first change the allocations at redditch or kidderminster still as i have seen a ex wr park and ride bus on kr locals , i have them all down as at hereford
Yes, as both garages & vehicles are still owned by First
The contract drawn up between First an Rotala will specify which 36 vehicles are involved, it is just it may not be vehicles currently allocated to Kidderminster or Redditch!
There are suggestions that Rotala may not be taking the 19 x 53/54 plate Enviro 300s currently allocated to Redditch, can anyone confirm or deny?
i heard that they here not taking the enviros , the today heard they could be taking jus 3
I'd be surprised if the Redditch E300's didn't move across as they were Council part-funded for use in Redditch.
Then again, I'm stunned that the sale is going ahead. I understand the geographical appeal but can only assume Rotala have more money than sense - I'll eat my Benny hat if a profit is ever made by them in Kidderminster. As for Redditch, well, I can see the appeal, but let's just say I would have utilised alternate methods to remove First's presence...
At least they can sell Church Rd to offset
forthcoming losses the purchase price.
Quote from: Winston on January 26, 2013, 10:05:25 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on January 26, 2013, 09:38:59 PM
Id personally be surprised if first let the e300s go as they are fairly newish buses and rotala will hardly be paying a fortune for the operation. I imagine first will use it as a chance to get rid of old darts, old lances, citybuses, the olympian.... stuff like that. Tho having said that, the wiagan fleet included some newer buses, but then again stagecoach did pay considerably more money for it
That's what I was thinking, it would be a good opportunity for First to upgrade the fleets they are retaining at HD & WR at no cost.
As Red Diamond already operate newer 08 plate B7RLE's on the 57/58, I expect these will still be used after the takeover / merging of the two fleets
I think Rotala have got both operations/garages for a bargain price..... still surprised NX weren't interested at the price First have let it go for
Quote from: NEL111P (not 4006 ;-) ) on January 26, 2013, 11:02:11 PM
I'd be surprised if the Redditch E300's didn't move across as they were Council part-funded for use in Redditch.
Then again, I'm stunned that the sale is going ahead. I understand the geographical appeal but can only assume Rotala have more money than sense - I'll eat my Benny hat if a profit is ever made by them in Kidderminster. As for Redditch, well, I can see the appeal, but let's just say I would have utilised alternate methods to remove First's presence...
At least they can sell Church Rd to offset forthcoming losses the purchase price.
Rotala don't have money that's the problem, its all funded by debt or issuing boats loads of additional shares. They owe more than the entire group is worth......
I don't see how the deal can go ahead, its not in the best interests for both passengers or the staff from First Redditch. I don't think Church Road is actually owned by Rotala, isn't it just leased?
Quote from: Winston on January 26, 2013, 10:05:25 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on January 26, 2013, 09:38:59 PM
Id personally be surprised if first let the e300s go as they are fairly newish buses and rotala will hardly be paying a fortune for the operation. I imagine first will use it as a chance to get rid of old darts, old lances, citybuses, the olympian.... stuff like that. Tho having said that, the wiagan fleet included some newer buses, but then again stagecoach did pay considerably more money for it
That's what I was thinking, it would be a good opportunity for First to upgrade the fleets they are retaining at HD & WR at no cost.
As Red Diamond already operate newer 08 plate B7RLE's on the 57/58, I expect these will still be used after the takeover / merging of the two fleets
I think Rotala have got both operations/garages for a bargain price..... still surprised NX weren't interested at the price First have let it go for
Church Road was sold by First to King Struge (cant remember the spelling but hey ho) then Petes Leased it off KS, then Peoples express, then Go-Ahead and now Rotala. So if this goes ahead Church Road will be dumped which will leave the door open for another company.
Now as far as I know and remember from some paper work I read in 2003, at least 1 Alx 400 has to go to Redditch and 4 E300s in the number range 67631-45 tho I could be more depending on how much Redditch Borough Council (this holds more weight than the next one) and Worcestershire County Council put in to the Partnership. 67600 is not included as are 67601-04 as they are funded by Herefordshire County Council so will transfer back to Hereford or Worcester. 67600 could be one of the 36 as its not a standard length which is why Redditch has it Worcester used it and passed it back. As for the rest of the E300's it depends on whether Hereford can use them, unless the 54 and 05 plate Darts are headed to Hereford to replace some Darts there (I say that as i saw a E300 on the 31A today in Worcester) Hereford may struggle to use the E300's.
Now looking at Reddibus.com I have looked into what Darts First may want to shift off, and i got at least 22 of them ranging from N(E)/P/R/Y then add in the 5 54 plate buses I think have to go with the 36 and any Lances and DDs that could make the 36 easy.
So I reckon,
2 City
1 Olyp
1 Alx 400
4 Alx E300
22 Darts (max)
then Stepped Lances to make it up to 36.
The olny reason I can see First Turning down NXs offer is because NX wanted all 5 Alx 400's as well as 10 Presidents and then most of Redditchs E300s and then some Darts. This would leave First with alot of junk to shift. Or invest :o.
As for Rotala/Diamond Removing First from Redditch by other means this could be difficult as FMR has a presence where it matters County Hall so this was the only way they were ever going to get more services in Redditch unless FMR didnt bid.
makes for good reading, well the names at the bottom do,
http://www.reddibus.com/images/Rotala%20Plc%20Acquisition%20Announcement%2024th%20January%202013.pdf
Theres enough newer darts to replace any first series darts (n/p/r) reg ones and lances using the V and W reg ones that were withdrawn when blue diamond stopped the 37 service which are all parked up not being used at the moment.
Quote from: tank90 on January 27, 2013, 12:42:38 AM
The olny reason I can see First Turning down NXs offer is because NX wanted all 5 Alx 400's as well as 10 Presidents and then most of Redditchs E300s and then some Darts. This would leave First with alot of junk to shift. Or invest :o.
Tank 90,
But if you remember, at the time of the rumour surrounding an agreed deal with NX, the First Essex Tridents were being brought up to Redditch to replace the remaining step entrance Lances etc. I think the deal falling through may have been more to do with the timing/loss of the WCML that threw everything up in the air, if the buses included in a deal were the main stumbling block, NX could have easily draughted in buses from its massive reserve fleet whilst new buses were ordered or secondhand buses sourced.
For £1.5 million should have brought KR & RH to keep the pressure on Rotala & prevent Arriva / any other setting up close to Birmingham.
Quote from: Winston on January 27, 2013, 11:57:16 AM
Quote from: tank90 on January 27, 2013, 12:42:38 AM
The olny reason I can see First Turning down NXs offer is because NX wanted all 5 Alx 400's as well as 10 Presidents and then most of Redditchs E300s and then some Darts. This would leave First with alot of junk to shift. Or invest :o.
Tank 90,
But if you remember, at the time of the rumour surrounding an agreed deal with NX, the First Essex Tridents were being brought up to Redditch to replace the remaining step entrance Lances etc. I think the deal falling through may have been more to do with the timing/loss of the WCML that threw everything up in the air, if the buses included in a deal were the main stumbling block, NX could have easily draughted in buses from its massive reserve fleet whilst new buses were ordered or secondhand buses sourced.
For £1.5 million should have brought KR & RH to keep the pressure on Rotala & prevent Arriva / any other setting up close to Birmingham.
It would be interesting to know why the first/NX deal didn't go ahead but as you say I doubt it was down to vehicles as the first ones are not the types NX would purchase and with the 2013 bus order there would have been enough vehicles to replace the KR and RH fleets 3 times over. Best of luck to Rotala but I doubt they will make much out of it if a multinational company can't.
Quote from: richie on January 27, 2013, 01:07:37 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 27, 2013, 11:57:16 AM
Quote from: tank90 on January 27, 2013, 12:42:38 AM
The olny reason I can see First Turning down NXs offer is because NX wanted all 5 Alx 400's as well as 10 Presidents and then most of Redditchs E300s and then some Darts. This would leave First with alot of junk to shift. Or invest :o.
Tank 90,
But if you remember, at the time of the rumour surrounding an agreed deal with NX, the First Essex Tridents were being brought up to Redditch to replace the remaining step entrance Lances etc. I think the deal falling through may have been more to do with the timing/loss of the WCML that threw everything up in the air, if the buses included in a deal were the main stumbling block, NX could have easily draughted in buses from its massive reserve fleet whilst new buses were ordered or secondhand buses sourced.
For £1.5 million should have brought KR & RH to keep the pressure on Rotala & prevent Arriva / any other setting up close to Birmingham.
It would be interesting to know why the first/NX deal didn't go ahead but as you say I doubt it was down to vehicles as the first ones are not the types NX would purchase and with the 2013 bus order there would have been enough vehicles to replace the KR and RH fleets 3 times over. Best of luck to Rotala but I doubt they will make much out of it if a multinational company can't.
I doubt we'll ever know. I expect Rotala buying the competition will improve the performance of Red Diamond no end, however there are going to be lot of staff without jobs as a result of the merger. I'd be very surprised in Rotata make anything of KR, on saying that Whittles seem to do alright there & are keen to expand there
Woudn't it be funny if NX leased Church Road depot after Diamond had vacated it, doubt it would happen though.......
Quote from: Winston on January 27, 2013, 01:16:01 PM
Quote from: richie on January 27, 2013, 01:07:37 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 27, 2013, 11:57:16 AM
Quote from: tank90 on January 27, 2013, 12:42:38 AM
The olny reason I can see First Turning down NXs offer is because NX wanted all 5 Alx 400's as well as 10 Presidents and then most of Redditchs E300s and then some Darts. This would leave First with alot of junk to shift. Or invest :o.
Tank 90,
But if you remember, at the time of the rumour surrounding an agreed deal with NX, the First Essex Tridents were being brought up to Redditch to replace the remaining step entrance Lances etc. I think the deal falling through may have been more to do with the timing/loss of the WCML that threw everything up in the air, if the buses included in a deal were the main stumbling block, NX could have easily draughted in buses from its massive reserve fleet whilst new buses were ordered or secondhand buses sourced.
For £1.5 million should have brought KR & RH to keep the pressure on Rotala & prevent Arriva / any other setting up close to Birmingham.
It would be interesting to know why the first/NX deal didn't go ahead but as you say I doubt it was down to vehicles as the first ones are not the types NX would purchase and with the 2013 bus order there would have been enough vehicles to replace the KR and RH fleets 3 times over. Best of luck to Rotala but I doubt they will make much out of it if a multinational company can't.
I doubt we'll ever know. I expect Rotala buying the competition will improve the performance of Red Diamond no end, however there are going to be lot of staff without jobs as a result of the merger. I'd be very surprised in Rotata make anything of KR, on saying that Whittles seem to do alright there & are keen to expand there
Woudn't it be funny if NX leased Church Road depot after Diamond had vacated it, doubt it would happen though.......
May be a long shot but some services such as the 202 could be transferred to be worked out of one of the acquired red diamond garages to give the drivers extra work.
Quote from: Ash on January 27, 2013, 06:44:55 PM
May be a long shot but some services such as the 202 could be transferred to be worked out of one of the acquired red diamond garages to give the drivers extra work.
But that then takes work off Black Diamond, what about the drivers at Tividale who drive the 202 route?
Just had a wee thought do Diamond know what they have let them selves in for Buying Redditch, by that I mean adding Safety screens to all the fleet that will be based at Redditch and Kidder so adding it to every bus in the fleet so the Union doesnt kick up a fuss when a vechical is moved to cover.
Quote from: tank90 on January 27, 2013, 07:34:40 PM
Just had a wee thought do Diamond know what they have let them selves in for Buying Redditch, by that I mean adding Safety screens to all the fleet that will be based at Redditch and Kidder so adding it to every bus in the fleet so the Union doesnt kick up a fuss when a vechical is moved to cover.
You would hope they know what they are buying in to, but who knows......
Quote from: tank90 on January 27, 2013, 07:34:40 PM
Just had a wee thought do Diamond know what they have let them selves in for Buying Redditch, by that I mean adding Safety screens to all the fleet that will be based at Redditch and Kidder so adding it to every bus in the fleet so the Union doesnt kick up a fuss when a vechical is moved to cover.
think that is a first thing rather than a union one,
It was company policy that any driver driving a bus without an assault screen after a certain time could refuse to drive the bus, however i assume they will sign new contracts at Diamond meaning this rule could be phased out.
Evening buses would no doubt be put into the hands of the buses that were First Group based so even if this rule stayed they could obey it!
Quote from: jc on January 27, 2013, 08:08:51 PM
It was company policy that any driver driving a bus without an assault screen after a certain time could refuse to drive the bus, however i assume they will sign new contracts at Diamond meaning this rule could be phased out.
Evening buses would no doubt be put into the hands of the buses that were First Group based so even if this rule stayed they could obey it!
In other words the rubbish buses as opposed to diamond's eclipses.
thats about the measure of it Pete
I know it's not really related to this topic but I can't believe a company like Rotala don't have assult screens as standerd
Quote from: richie on January 27, 2013, 08:18:59 PM
I know it's not really related to this topic but I can't believe a company like Rotala don't have assult screens as standerd
Does seem surprising doesnt it especially in a place like Birmingham on routes which do go through some challenging areas. Having said that, diamond buses dont seem to attract the same amount of dross as NXWM ones as your average WM chav has just a travelcard not a diamond pass. Also, diamond dont tend to run services later in the evening/night as NXWM although having said that pete's did and diamond do still have some contracts for routes which go on into the night. I guess diamond take the risk and tbf it does make for better customer service-something which diamond are oftern praised for
Some of diamond's vehicles at Tividale do have assault screens such as W335-7VGX this is due to them being used in London previously and would have been installed then. Service like the 4 and 301 that run late into the evening rarely see trouble and so probably are not needed but if I was a driver I would feel more secure with them installed no matter what service or time of day it was. 30821 a royale centro has had new fleet names applied saying just Diamond.
Diamond do not reconise a union either well they did not when I was there so the union can huff and puff but will be told to bog off unless now the union can get itself reconised.
Just had a thought, if FMR got rid of most of its old fleet to Rotala then they wouldnt see any new investment that First might of had in the pipeline to upgrade the fleet. Just a thought.
Quote from: Discodave on January 28, 2013, 11:17:10 AM
Diamond do not reconise a union either well they did not when I was there so the union can huff and puff but will be told to bog off unless now the union can get itself reconised.
The FMR staff will go across to Diamond under TUPE. This means Diamond HAS to honour their current contracts and working terms. Not sure if this includes the union, but if it's considered part of their current working conditions then it probably does. This will open up a whole can of worms for Diamond.
It will be interesting to see if anyone takes this golden opportunity to attack Redditch, I mean if I was still in the industry I would be seriously looking at it.
Quote from: Steveminor on January 29, 2013, 07:37:37 AM
Quote from: Discodave on January 28, 2013, 11:17:10 AM
Diamond do not reconise a union either well they did not when I was there so the union can huff and puff but will be told to bog off unless now the union can get itself reconised.
The FMR staff will go across to Diamond under TUPE. This means Diamond HAS to honour their current contracts and working terms. Not sure if this includes the union, but if it's considered part of their current working conditions then it probably does. This will open up a whole can of worms for Diamond.
It will be interesting to see if anyone takes this golden opportunity to attack Redditch, I mean if I was still in the industry I would be seriously looking at it.
Well it may mean decent pay and a fair working week for everyone £7.00 and hour was a joke possibly £8.00 now the problem I had was being on a supposed rota (255,256,257) at the time lates I had 2, 12 hour shifts on one week so I would have made a decent pay packet but the 2 12 hour shifts were changed without my permission and given to an eastern european driver whom wanted the money and hours. Racist or what it would have been nice to make some money myself that week. I took the matter up with Steve Bryce at the time who sorted it by getting me paid the 12 hours insted of the shorter shift lengths. I left on good terms after as I had got my Class 1 HGV and started a new job. I was offered later personally to work for him at yourbus and if it was not for having my class 1 I would have gone and continued being a bus driver but I am now happy as a traffic manager and HGV driver.
Quote from: tank90 on January 27, 2013, 12:42:38 AM
Church Road was sold by First to King Struge (cant remember the spelling but hey ho) then Petes Leased it off KS, then Peoples express, then Go-Ahead and now Rotala. So if this goes ahead Church Road will be dumped which will leave the door open for another company.
Now as far as I know and remember from some paper work I read in 2003, at least 1 Alx 400 has to go to Redditch and 4 E300s in the number range 67631-45 tho I could be more depending on how much Redditch Borough Council (this holds more weight than the next one) and Worcestershire County Council put in to the Partnership. 67600 is not included as are 67601-04 as they are funded by Herefordshire County Council so will transfer back to Hereford or Worcester. 67600 could be one of the 36 as its not a standard length which is why Redditch has it Worcester used it and passed it back. As for the rest of the E300's it depends on whether Hereford can use them, unless the 54 and 05 plate Darts are headed to Hereford to replace some Darts there (I say that as i saw a E300 on the 31A today in Worcester) Hereford may struggle to use the E300's.
Now looking at Reddibus.com I have looked into what Darts First may want to shift off, and i got at least 22 of them ranging from N(E)/P/R/Y then add in the 5 54 plate buses I think have to go with the 36 and any Lances and DDs that could make the 36 easy.
So I reckon,
2 City
1 Olyp
1 Alx 400
4 Alx E300
22 Darts (max)
then Stepped Lances to make it up to 36.
The olny reason I can see First Turning down NXs offer is because NX wanted all 5 Alx 400's as well as 10 Presidents and then most of Redditchs E300s and then some Darts. This would leave First with alot of junk to shift. Or invest :o.
As for Rotala/Diamond Removing First from Redditch by other means this could be difficult as FMR has a presence where it matters County Hall so this was the only way they were ever going to get more services in Redditch unless FMR didnt bid.
makes for good reading, well the names at the bottom do,
http://www.reddibus.com/images/Rotala%20Plc%20Acquisition%20Announcement%2024th%20January%202013.pdf
Not a bad guess, Rotala have now supplied me with the vehicles included in the sale, they are
R610YCR
R220MSA
P402MLA
P403MLA
P404MLA
P405MLA
P406MLA
R445CCV
N341EUY
VX54MUC
VX54MUO
VX54MUP
R457CAH
N475JUG
N478JUG
M238MRW
M239MRW
M244MRW
M255MRW
N963SOS
V857HBY
V860HBY
V862HBY
V877HBY
T881KLF
V882HBY
T884KLF
T885KLF
V886HBY
V894HLH
VX54MSU
VX54MSY
VX54MTE
M246MRW
K123URP
K126URP
Quote from: Tony on January 29, 2013, 06:21:04 PM
Quote from: tank90 on January 27, 2013, 12:42:38 AM
Church Road was sold by First to King Struge (cant remember the spelling but hey ho) then Petes Leased it off KS, then Peoples express, then Go-Ahead and now Rotala. So if this goes ahead Church Road will be dumped which will leave the door open for another company.
Now as far as I know and remember from some paper work I read in 2003, at least 1 Alx 400 has to go to Redditch and 4 E300s in the number range 67631-45 tho I could be more depending on how much Redditch Borough Council (this holds more weight than the next one) and Worcestershire County Council put in to the Partnership. 67600 is not included as are 67601-04 as they are funded by Herefordshire County Council so will transfer back to Hereford or Worcester. 67600 could be one of the 36 as its not a standard length which is why Redditch has it Worcester used it and passed it back. As for the rest of the E300's it depends on whether Hereford can use them, unless the 54 and 05 plate Darts are headed to Hereford to replace some Darts there (I say that as i saw a E300 on the 31A today in Worcester) Hereford may struggle to use the E300's.
Now looking at Reddibus.com I have looked into what Darts First may want to shift off, and i got at least 22 of them ranging from N(E)/P/R/Y then add in the 5 54 plate buses I think have to go with the 36 and any Lances and DDs that could make the 36 easy.
So I reckon,
2 City
1 Olyp
1 Alx 400
4 Alx E300
22 Darts (max)
then Stepped Lances to make it up to 36.
The olny reason I can see First Turning down NXs offer is because NX wanted all 5 Alx 400's as well as 10 Presidents and then most of Redditchs E300s and then some Darts. This would leave First with alot of junk to shift. Or invest :o.
As for Rotala/Diamond Removing First from Redditch by other means this could be difficult as FMR has a presence where it matters County Hall so this was the only way they were ever going to get more services in Redditch unless FMR didnt bid.
makes for good reading, well the names at the bottom do,
http://www.reddibus.com/images/Rotala%20Plc%20Acquisition%20Announcement%2024th%20January%202013.pdf
Not a bad guess, Rotala have now supplied me with the vehicles included in the sale, they are
R610YCR
R220MSA
P402MLA
P403MLA
P404MLA
P405MLA
P406MLA
R445CCV
N341EUY
VX54MUC
VX54MUO
VX54MUP
R457CAH
N475JUG
N478JUG
M238MRW
M239MRW
M244MRW
M255MRW
N963SOS
V857HBY
V860HBY
V862HBY
V877HBY
T881KLF
V882HBY
T884KLF
T885KLF
V886HBY
V894HLH
VX54MSU
VX54MSY
VX54MTE
M246MRW
K123URP
K126URP
Rotala are buying quite an elderly fleet, obviously they have numerous Dart SLFs of their own surplus to requirement, but nothing that much newer than what they are buying off First. They should take the remaining 04 plate B7RLE off the for sale list & put those in to Redditch or Kiddi to replace a number of step entrance Lance
The Lances and darts P402-6MLA/R445CCV are all due to be withdrawn almost immediately and replaced by a selection of vehicles from the existing fleet, but not any of the 'withdrawn' vehicles. Eight of the ex Dunn-Line darts are expected to move, along with some Solos from London, the Nifty50 Centros and a selection of other odd vehicles.
The full list is not finalised yet so I won't put it on here yet, but I presume the transfer of the nifty50s means the 50 service may transfer to Redditch, although they are listed as being in Blue Diamond livery so may be repainted before moving
Quote from: Tony on January 29, 2013, 06:45:51 PM
The Lances and darts P402-6MLA/R445CCV are all due to be withdrawn almost immediately and replaced by a selection of vehicles from the existing fleet, but not any of the 'withdrawn' vehicles. Eight of the ex Dunn-Line darts are expected to move, along with some Solos from London, the Nifty50 Centros and a selection of other odd vehicles.
The full list is not finalised yet so I won't put it on here yet, but I presume the transfer of the nifty50s means the 50 service may transfer to Redditch, although they are listed as being in Blue Diamond livery so may be repainted before moving
Tony,
Any hint of Rotala ordering any new vehicles for Redditch or the West Midlands?
If the 50 does transfer to Redditch it's leaving even fewer services operating out of Long Acre unless a Birmingham Black diamond service transfers over such as the 56. I wonder in the future if Long Acre will close and everything transfer to Tividale but surprised to see the 50 service moving to red diamond.
Quote from: Winston on January 29, 2013, 06:48:45 PM
Quote from: Tony on January 29, 2013, 06:45:51 PM
The Lances and darts P402-6MLA/R445CCV are all due to be withdrawn almost immediately and replaced by a selection of vehicles from the existing fleet, but not any of the 'withdrawn' vehicles. Eight of the ex Dunn-Line darts are expected to move, along with some Solos from London, the Nifty50 Centros and a selection of other odd vehicles.
The full list is not finalised yet so I won't put it on here yet, but I presume the transfer of the nifty50s means the 50 service may transfer to Redditch, although they are listed as being in Blue Diamond livery so may be repainted before moving
Tony,
Any hint of Rotala ordering any new vehicles for Redditch or the West Midlands?
The email I have received today doesn't mention anything and the attached fleetlist doesn't mention any more vehicles expected to join the group new or otherwise, although I think a couple more second hand solos might be in there somewhere when I do a full vehicle by vehicle check.
Quote from: Ash on January 29, 2013, 06:55:41 PM
If the 50 does transfer to Redditch it's leaving even fewer services operating out of Long Acre unless a Birmingham Black diamond service transfers over such as the 56. I wonder in the future if Long Acre will close and everything transfer to Tividale but surprised to see the 50 service moving to red diamond.
There's not going to be a lot left at Long Acre, may be they'll downgrade it to just a coach base / for storing the withdrawn buses / engineering facility & HQ and transfer the remainder of the Blue Diamond fleet to Tividale to reduce overheads. Tividale should be able to accommodate the fleet if the withdrawn vehicles in the overflow bus park are moved elsewhere
By my calculations, the average vehicle age of these buses is nearly 15 years which doesnt seem fantastic. Do we think that a rotala will order any new buses/cascade any other ones from diamond/preston/wessex. If the 50 is transferred over, do we think it would make sense to try to operate at least some journeys at the peaks as X50s to redditch to reduce dead mileage. Also, do we think that was why first got rid of the 143 so as they only had one bristol road service the 144 and knew they wouldnt compete with a new owner. I personally think rotala should close long acre as with the loss of natex contracts, the 10, now the 50 theres not going to be much left there any more-surely better so split remaining services between redditch-only one site needed-and tividale. Then much reduced overheads
Quote from: Peter123 on January 29, 2013, 07:27:40 PM
By my calculations, the average vehicle age of these buses is nearly 15 years which doesnt seem fantastic. Do we think that a rotala will order any new buses/cascade any other ones from diamond/preston/wessex. If the 50 is transferred over, do we think it would make sense to try to operate at least some journeys at the peaks as X50s to redditch to reduce dead mileage. Also, do we think that was why first got rid of the 143 so as they only had one bristol road service the 144 and knew they wouldnt compete with a new owner. I personally think rotala should close long acre as with the loss of natex contracts, the 10, now the 50 theres not going to be much left there any more-surely better so split remaining services between redditch-only one site needed-and tividale. Then much reduced overheads
The age of the First fleet being acquired is obviously one reason why Rotala managed to get RH & KR for a mere £1.5 Million. I'll be surprised if Rotala buy more than a handful of new buses for the Redditch operation over the next year or so, they may acquire further newer secondhand vehicles.
If Rotala cascade newer buses out of Black Diamond, that fleet will suffer further
Quote from: Winston on January 29, 2013, 07:38:01 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on January 29, 2013, 07:27:40 PM
By my calculations, the average vehicle age of these buses is nearly 15 years which doesnt seem fantastic. Do we think that a rotala will order any new buses/cascade any other ones from diamond/preston/wessex. If the 50 is transferred over, do we think it would make sense to try to operate at least some journeys at the peaks as X50s to redditch to reduce dead mileage. Also, do we think that was why first got rid of the 143 so as they only had one bristol road service the 144 and knew they wouldnt compete with a new owner. I personally think rotala should close long acre as with the loss of natex contracts, the 10, now the 50 theres not going to be much left there any more-surely better so split remaining services between redditch-only one site needed-and tividale. Then much reduced overheads
The age of the First fleet being acquired is obviously one reason why Rotala managed to get RH & KR for a mere £1.5 Million. I'll be surprised if Rotala buy more than a handful of new buses for the Redditch operation over the next year or so, they may acquire further newer secondhand vehicles.
If Rotala cascade newer buses out of Black Diamond, that fleet will suffer further
I was thinking cascade wessex red buses to diamond as wessex seems to justify investment in new vehicles and then transfer diamond darts to redditch would be a solution.
Has anyone heard whether there will be an inquiry or not yet?
Quote from: Peter123 on January 29, 2013, 07:44:31 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 29, 2013, 07:38:01 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on January 29, 2013, 07:27:40 PM
By my calculations, the average vehicle age of these buses is nearly 15 years which doesnt seem fantastic. Do we think that a rotala will order any new buses/cascade any other ones from diamond/preston/wessex. If the 50 is transferred over, do we think it would make sense to try to operate at least some journeys at the peaks as X50s to redditch to reduce dead mileage. Also, do we think that was why first got rid of the 143 so as they only had one bristol road service the 144 and knew they wouldnt compete with a new owner. I personally think rotala should close long acre as with the loss of natex contracts, the 10, now the 50 theres not going to be much left there any more-surely better so split remaining services between redditch-only one site needed-and tividale. Then much reduced overheads
The age of the First fleet being acquired is obviously one reason why Rotala managed to get RH & KR for a mere £1.5 Million. I'll be surprised if Rotala buy more than a handful of new buses for the Redditch operation over the next year or so, they may acquire further newer secondhand vehicles.
If Rotala cascade newer buses out of Black Diamond, that fleet will suffer further
I was thinking cascade wessex red buses to diamond as wessex seems to justify investment in new vehicles and then transfer diamond darts to redditch would be a solution.
Have Wessex had a new buses since the Volvo B9TL & B7RLE deliveries? I assume the 04 plate B7RLE currently for sale were made redundant by the 62 plate B7RLE
With the black diamond cadets being taken off sale keeping these may release some older red and white diamond darts to red diamond or whatever was planned to replace the cadets going to red diamond instead. Not sure how well used the double decker services are for first (the ones transferring to rotala) but it would be nice to see some double deckers entering the black diamond fleet as service like the 301 could benefit from them transferring single deckers to red diamond as an exchange. Other than the 002/56/301 not sure how many other black diamond service would benefit from double deckers, as the 4 is so frequent (every 6 minutes) single deckers are enough for the passenger usage they see.
Quote from: Ash on January 29, 2013, 08:10:04 PM
With the black diamond cadets being taken off sale keeping these may release some older red and white diamond darts to red diamond or whatever was planned to replace the cadets going to red diamond instead.
The vehicles being transferred in are generally 10 years old or less, several 5 year old Solos are on the current list, no point replacing old nails with almost as old nails
supprized first did not move some darts around so they kept te 54 reg darts 42401 from hereford and 42217 & 42219 from worcester could have replaced them at kidderminster
Quote from: Winston on January 29, 2013, 07:52:46 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on January 29, 2013, 07:44:31 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 29, 2013, 07:38:01 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on January 29, 2013, 07:27:40 PM
By my calculations, the average vehicle age of these buses is nearly 15 years which doesnt seem fantastic. Do we think that a rotala will order any new buses/cascade any other ones from diamond/preston/wessex. If the 50 is transferred over, do we think it would make sense to try to operate at least some journeys at the peaks as X50s to redditch to reduce dead mileage. Also, do we think that was why first got rid of the 143 so as they only had one bristol road service the 144 and knew they wouldnt compete with a new owner. I personally think rotala should close long acre as with the loss of natex contracts, the 10, now the 50 theres not going to be much left there any more-surely better so split remaining services between redditch-only one site needed-and tividale. Then much reduced overheads
The age of the First fleet being acquired is obviously one reason why Rotala managed to get RH & KR for a mere £1.5 Million. I'll be surprised if Rotala buy more than a handful of new buses for the Redditch operation over the next year or so, they may acquire further newer secondhand vehicles.
If Rotala cascade newer buses out of Black Diamond, that fleet will suffer further
I was thinking cascade wessex red buses to diamond as wessex seems to justify investment in new vehicles and then transfer diamond darts to redditch would be a solution.
Have Wessex had a new buses since the Volvo B9TL & B7RLE deliveries? I assume the 04 plate B7RLE currently for sale were made redundant by the 62 plate B7RLE
Seen a 62 place Volvo in Brislington last night (was on a run damm) did not see the fleet number looked nice but Wessex has a good fleet.
If the decision is passed when could we see rotala taking over first services in Redditch and Kidderminster.
First Group have hinted that it could still hit its £100 Million target for UK bus disposals with only two months left to go, they need to raise £82 Million by 31st March Northumberland Park garage sale to Go-Ahead group was not include in the £100 million target
http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2013/01/first-seeks-80m-of-bus-disposals-in-two-months/
Any one any ideas on which subsidiaries could raise £82 million???
I think its fair to say that Bristol, Norwich, Glasgow, Manchester, West Yorkshire & South Yorkshire are all safe, First London could be a possibility as profit margins are limited due to it being a regulated market. First London have today also lost 4 Tfl (165, 179, 252 & 365) routes all based at Dagenham garage to Stagecoach London, they should have sold it to Stagecoach while they had the chance.
I'm thinking Plymouth, Leicester & Northampton, Scotland East being broken up could all be on the for sale list, even the remainder of Wyvern could be on there, its will only amount of circa 100 vehicles at HD &WR once RH & KR have gone
I did suggest a swop for one of the Midland companies. One thing to bear in mind is that Stagecoach may be thwarted in any bid to purchase any further pieces of First. Also smaller companies are unlikely to buy pieces of First due to the number of them going belly-up.
South Wales will remain with First as they have had to take on Veolias work and there isnt an obvious alternative unless Arriva , Centrebus and Go-Ahead want to move into new areas.
Centrebus could buy Northampton, but Plymouth could be difficult to sell because Go-Ahead/Stagecoach would be barred. I think because of the OFT First will have a hard job disposing of any operation. The logical companies would create a monopoly and the small timers are too weak to take on big company assets. One only has to look at the amount Go-Ahead hoovered up in East Anglia in 2012!
I think there is NO CHANCE of First finding £82 million of assets to sell by Easter unless the Scottish Government nationalises First's Scottish operations! Not a bad idea, but the free market zealots would have a fit!
sconehead85
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 01, 2013, 01:10:56 AM
I did suggest a swop for one of the Midland companies. One thing to bear in mind is that Stagecoach may be thwarted in any bid to purchase any further pieces of First. Also smaller companies are unlikely to buy pieces of First due to the number of them going belly-up.
South Wales will remain with First as they have had to take on Veolias work and there isnt an obvious alternative unless Arriva , Centrebus and Go-Ahead want to move into new areas.
Centrebus could buy Northampton, but Plymouth could be difficult to sell because Go-Ahead/Stagecoach would be barred. I think because of the OFT First will have a hard job disposing of any operation. The logical companies would create a monopoly and the small timers are too weak to take on big company assets. One only has to look at the amount Go-Ahead hoovered up in East Anglia in 2012!
I think there is NO CHANCE of First finding £82 million of assets to sell by Easter unless the Scottish Government nationalises First's Scottish operations! Not a bad idea, but the free market zealots would have a fit!
sconehead85
To raise that amount of money I think they would try to sell Berkshire, Devon and Cornwall, Hampshire and Dorset, Midands West, Northampton, and Potteries and Scotland East. Surely these must be the worst performing bits of First. TBH the first left over would be extremely profitable: Wales, Bristol, London, Manchester, Yorkshire x2, Glasgow, AberdeenSomerset and Avon, Essex etc
Quote from: Winston on January 31, 2013, 10:54:56 PM
I think its fair to say that Bristol, Norwich, Glasgow, Manchester, West Yorkshire & South Yorkshire are all safe,
That's a pity. Everybody in Bristol would give anything to see First sell up and move their appalling "service" out of Bristol.
The irony is the least profitable bits of First would be hardest to sell. There is no obvious candidate for Devon & Cornwall- Western Greyhound dont appear to want to grow that big.
Many of these bits could only be bought by large groups who can take on the TUPE requirements.
The only way is for the OFT to accept that some areas may have to have monopolies providing the bus service. I cant see Stagecoach wanting to buy more if like the Wigan situation that attracts OFT interference, despite the fact that same level of competition appiies as when First ran it.
sconehead85
Quote from: Roy on February 01, 2013, 05:12:57 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 31, 2013, 10:54:56 PM
I think its fair to say that Bristol, Norwich, Glasgow, Manchester, West Yorkshire & South Yorkshire are all safe,
That's a pity. Everybody in Bristol would give anything to see First sell up and move their appalling "service" out of Bristol.
I don't think the appalling service is just confined to Bristol, that with high fares & elderly vehicles is why First are in the mess that they are
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 01, 2013, 06:19:23 PM
The irony is the least profitable bits of First would be hardest to sell. There is no obvious candidate for Devon & Cornwall- Western Greyhound dont appear to want to grow that big.
Many of these bits could only be bought by large groups who can take on the TUPE requirements.
The only way is for the OFT to accept that some areas may have to have monopolies providing the bus service. I cant see Stagecoach wanting to buy more if like the Wigan situation that attracts OFT interference, despite the fact that same level of competition appiies as when First ran it.
sconehead85
There have been numerous rumours flying around that NX were going to buy Wigan, then Redditch & Kidderminster & now Livingston & Larbert. I would like to see NX grow its UK bus business, but Dean Finch doesn't seen in any rush to do any deals / expand the group. I can only assume his treading carefully after the East Coast Franchise nearly sunk the group
Quote from: Winston on February 01, 2013, 06:31:52 PM
Quote from: Roy on February 01, 2013, 05:12:57 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 31, 2013, 10:54:56 PM
I think its fair to say that Bristol, Norwich, Glasgow, Manchester, West Yorkshire & South Yorkshire are all safe,
That's a pity. Everybody in Bristol would give anything to see First sell up and move their appalling "service" out of Bristol.
To go all LF the First West of England region (roughly the old Bristol Omnibus area) need to replace
40 Dennis Darts , 17 Volvo Olympians and 4 Mercedes midibuses. Even when these have gone there are many P/R-reg Dennis Darts to replace as well, so I reckon 100 single deckers are needed, plus 17 cascaded LFDDs and four Optare Solos.
sconehead85
I don't think the appalling service is just confined to Bristol, that with high fares & elderly vehicles is why First are in the mess that they are
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 02, 2013, 01:04:01 AM
To go all LF the First West of England region (roughly the old Bristol Omnibus area) need to replace
40 Dennis Darts , 17 Volvo Olympians and 4 Mercedes midibuses. Even when these have gone there are many P/R-reg Dennis Darts to replace as well, so I reckon 100 single deckers are needed, plus 17 cascaded LFDDs and four Optare Solos.
sconehead85
Saying that, West of England are currently in the process of receiving 20 x Volvo B7TL/Wright Gemini (53 plate) ex First London
http://www.swhite.org.uk/steve/jan.htm
Quote from: Winston on February 01, 2013, 06:31:52 PM
Quote from: Roy on February 01, 2013, 05:12:57 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 31, 2013, 10:54:56 PM
I think its fair to say that Bristol, Norwich, Glasgow, Manchester, West Yorkshire & South Yorkshire are all safe,
That's a pity. Everybody in Bristol would give anything to see First sell up and move their appalling "service" out of Bristol.
I don't think the appalling service is just confined to Bristol, that with high fares & elderly vehicles is why First are in the mess that they are
I agree with you that the appalling service is not confined to Bristol - I've suffered First Devon & Cornwall and First in Worcestershire! However, things are coming to a head in Bristol with First being attacked on an almost daily basis by politicians and passengers. The local paper prints letters of protest from passengers nearly every day. In fact a protest meeting was held this weekend to highlight the extortionate fares charged in the city.
http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/MPs-board-campaign-lower-fares-s-city-buses/story-18048060-detail/story.html (http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/MPs-board-campaign-lower-fares-s-city-buses/story-18048060-detail/story.html)
Bristol has not seen a new bus from First for nearly 4 years. Now, it seems that they are to get 10 year old buses cascaded from London. In addition, buses in Bristol which have had "local identity" applied display "West of England" rather than "Bristol", which has added to the antagonism against First. The contempt with which First treat the Bristol area is an insult.
I just wonder whether First may be tempted to pull the plug on the old Bristol Omnibus Company area given the constant flak that they are taking from everybody in the area. I certainly hope so.
Quote from: Roy on February 04, 2013, 02:07:08 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 01, 2013, 06:31:52 PM
Quote from: Roy on February 01, 2013, 05:12:57 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 31, 2013, 10:54:56 PM
I think its fair to say that Bristol, Norwich, Glasgow, Manchester, West Yorkshire & South Yorkshire are all safe,
That's a pity. Everybody in Bristol would give anything to see First sell up and move their appalling "service" out of Bristol.
I don't think the appalling service is just confined to Bristol, that with high fares & elderly vehicles is why First are in the mess that they are
I agree with you that the appalling service is not confined to Bristol - I've suffered First Devon & Cornwall and First in Worcestershire! However, things are coming to a head in Bristol with First being attacked on an almost daily basis by politicians and passengers. The local paper prints letters of protest from passengers nearly every day. In fact a protest meeting was held this weekend to highlight the extortionate fares charged in the city.
http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/MPs-board-campaign-lower-fares-s-city-buses/story-18048060-detail/story.html (http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/MPs-board-campaign-lower-fares-s-city-buses/story-18048060-detail/story.html)
Bristol has not seen a new bus from First for nearly 4 years. Now, it seems that they are to get 10 year old buses cascaded from London. In addition, buses in Bristol which have had "local identity" applied display "West of England" rather than "Bristol", which has added to the antagonism against First. The contempt with which First treat the Bristol area is an insult.
I just wonder whether First may be tempted to pull the plug on the old Bristol Omnibus Company area given the constant flak that they are taking from everybody in the area. I certainly hope so.
Looks like Rotala should have gone for Bristol not Redditch or Kiddeminster the Wessex fleet is one of the best and I hear has a lot of good press from the public I know some of the blokes at BOC Bristol use them regular as First are crap.
Quote from: Discodave on February 04, 2013, 05:01:09 PM
Quote from: Roy on February 04, 2013, 02:07:08 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 01, 2013, 06:31:52 PM
Quote from: Roy on February 01, 2013, 05:12:57 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 31, 2013, 10:54:56 PM
I think its fair to say that Bristol, Norwich, Glasgow, Manchester, West Yorkshire & South Yorkshire are all safe,
That's a pity. Everybody in Bristol would give anything to see First sell up and move their appalling "service" out of Bristol.
I don't think the appalling service is just confined to Bristol, that with high fares & elderly vehicles is why First are in the mess that they are
I agree with you that the appalling service is not confined to Bristol - I've suffered First Devon & Cornwall and First in Worcestershire! However, things are coming to a head in Bristol with First being attacked on an almost daily basis by politicians and passengers. The local paper prints letters of protest from passengers nearly every day. In fact a protest meeting was held this weekend to highlight the extortionate fares charged in the city.
http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/MPs-board-campaign-lower-fares-s-city-buses/story-18048060-detail/story.html (http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/MPs-board-campaign-lower-fares-s-city-buses/story-18048060-detail/story.html)
Bristol has not seen a new bus from First for nearly 4 years. Now, it seems that they are to get 10 year old buses cascaded from London. In addition, buses in Bristol which have had "local identity" applied display "West of England" rather than "Bristol", which has added to the antagonism against First. The contempt with which First treat the Bristol area is an insult.
I just wonder whether First may be tempted to pull the plug on the old Bristol Omnibus Company area given the constant flak that they are taking from everybody in the area. I certainly hope so.
Looks like Rotala should have gone for Bristol not Redditch or Kiddeminster the Wessex fleet is one of the best and I hear has a lot of good press from the public I know some of the blokes at BOC Bristol use them regular as First are crap.
They might try and buy Bristol as well.
Will the OFT allow it you know what problems First have been having selling things even Arriva buying though eventually got Midland.
3/3/13 is when diamond start operating from the ex first depot in Kidderminster, think Redditch might be the 2/3/13
as the ex first depot is open on sundays where Kidderminster is closed,+
Quote from: bowler on February 04, 2013, 06:41:29 PM
3/3/13 is when diamond start operating from the ex first depot in Kidderminster, think Redditch might be the 2/3/13
as the ex first depot is open on sundays where Kidderminster is closed,+
Thanks for the information :)
Quote from: Ash on February 04, 2013, 06:46:04 PM
Quote from: bowler on February 04, 2013, 06:41:29 PM
3/3/13 is when diamond start operating from the ex first depot in Kidderminster, think Redditch might be the 2/3/13
as the ex first depot is open on sundays where Kidderminster is closed,+
Thanks for the information :)
I was told this by a driver from first who I know, when boarding my bus home( a blue diamond on the 133 pull along side to pick up , ) the driver said that would be there new colours from the 3rd. as I said Redditch might be the 2nd as it is open sunday and kidderminster is closed
Quote from: bowler on February 04, 2013, 06:58:10 PM
Quote from: Ash on February 04, 2013, 06:46:04 PM
Quote from: bowler on February 04, 2013, 06:41:29 PM
3/3/13 is when diamond start operating from the ex first depot in Kidderminster, think Redditch might be the 2/3/13
as the ex first depot is open on sundays where Kidderminster is closed,+
Thanks for the information :)
I was told this by a driver from first who I know, when boarding my bus home( a blue diamond on the 133 pull along side to pick up , ) the driver said that would be there new colours from the 3rd. as I said Redditch might be the 2nd as it is open sunday and kidderminster is closed
Ok so I'm guessing blue will be the colour chosen for the vehicles of the operation around Redditch and Kidderminster or just from Kidderminster and Redditch stopping at red.
Quote from: Ash on February 04, 2013, 07:08:48 PM
Quote from: bowler on February 04, 2013, 06:58:10 PM
Quote from: Ash on February 04, 2013, 06:46:04 PM
Quote from: bowler on February 04, 2013, 06:41:29 PM
3/3/13 is when diamond start operating from the ex first depot in Kidderminster, think Redditch might be the 2/3/13
as the ex first depot is open on sundays where Kidderminster is closed,+
Thanks for the information :)
I was told this by a driver from first who I know, when boarding my bus home( a blue diamond on the 133 pull along side to pick up , ) the driver said that would be there new colours from the 3rd. as I said Redditch might be the 2nd as it is open sunday and kidderminster is closed
Ok so I'm guessing blue will be the colour chosen for the vehicles of the operation around Redditch and Kidderminster or just from Kidderminster and Redditch stopping at red.
did not think of that , just have wait see on that
Regarding Bristol its possible that First could sell PART of its operations there but it could ONLY be to one of the large groups. I think it is just out of Rotala's bracket but Arriva, Go-Ahead and RATP are possibilities. Stagecoach might be allowed, if they are buying just one of the three depots there.
sconehead85
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 04, 2013, 07:34:54 PM
Regarding Bristol its possible that First could sell PART of its operations there but it could ONLY be to one of the large groups. I think it is just out of Rotala's bracket but Arriva, Go-Ahead and RATP are possibilities. Stagecoach might be allowed, if they are buying just one of the three depots there.
sconehead85
Would Arriva want Bristol its quite a way from most of the operations to link with. Southern counties maybe but otherwise North Wales is the next nearest. I am talking on bus operations as I know the trains are in Cardiff.
Quote from: Peter123 on February 04, 2013, 05:01:48 PM
Quote from: Discodave on February 04, 2013, 05:01:09 PM
Quote from: Roy on February 04, 2013, 02:07:08 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 01, 2013, 06:31:52 PM
Quote from: Roy on February 01, 2013, 05:12:57 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 31, 2013, 10:54:56 PM
I think its fair to say that Bristol, Norwich, Glasgow, Manchester, West Yorkshire & South Yorkshire are all safe,
That's a pity. Everybody in Bristol would give anything to see First sell up and move their appalling "service" out of Bristol.
I don't think the appalling service is just confined to Bristol, that with high fares & elderly vehicles is why First are in the mess that they are
I agree with you that the appalling service is not confined to Bristol - I've suffered First Devon & Cornwall and First in Worcestershire! However, things are coming to a head in Bristol with First being attacked on an almost daily basis by politicians and passengers. The local paper prints letters of protest from passengers nearly every day. In fact a protest meeting was held this weekend to highlight the extortionate fares charged in the city.
http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/MPs-board-campaign-lower-fares-s-city-buses/story-18048060-detail/story.html (http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/MPs-board-campaign-lower-fares-s-city-buses/story-18048060-detail/story.html)
Bristol has not seen a new bus from First for nearly 4 years. Now, it seems that they are to get 10 year old buses cascaded from London. In addition, buses in Bristol which have had "local identity" applied display "West of England" rather than "Bristol", which has added to the antagonism against First. The contempt with which First treat the Bristol area is an insult.
I just wonder whether First may be tempted to pull the plug on the old Bristol Omnibus Company area given the constant flak that they are taking from everybody in the area. I certainly hope so.
Looks like Rotala should have gone for Bristol not Redditch or Kiddeminster the Wessex fleet is one of the best and I hear has a lot of good press from the public I know some of the blokes at BOC Bristol use them regular as First are crap.
They might try and buy Bristol as well.
I very much doubt Rotala could afford First's Bristol operation, I also very much doubt it is being considered for sale either
Quote from: Winston on February 06, 2013, 11:32:11 AM
Quote from: Peter123 on February 04, 2013, 05:01:48 PM
Quote from: Discodave on February 04, 2013, 05:01:09 PM
Quote from: Roy on February 04, 2013, 02:07:08 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 01, 2013, 06:31:52 PM
Quote from: Roy on February 01, 2013, 05:12:57 PM
Quote from: Winston on January 31, 2013, 10:54:56 PM
I think its fair to say that Bristol, Norwich, Glasgow, Manchester, West Yorkshire & South Yorkshire are all safe,
That's a pity. Everybody in Bristol would give anything to see First sell up and move their appalling "service" out of Bristol.
I don't think the appalling service is just confined to Bristol, that with high fares & elderly vehicles is why First are in the mess that they are
I agree with you that the appalling service is not confined to Bristol - I've suffered First Devon & Cornwall and First in Worcestershire! However, things are coming to a head in Bristol with First being attacked on an almost daily basis by politicians and passengers. The local paper prints letters of protest from passengers nearly every day. In fact a protest meeting was held this weekend to highlight the extortionate fares charged in the city.
http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/MPs-board-campaign-lower-fares-s-city-buses/story-18048060-detail/story.html (http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/MPs-board-campaign-lower-fares-s-city-buses/story-18048060-detail/story.html)
Bristol has not seen a new bus from First for nearly 4 years. Now, it seems that they are to get 10 year old buses cascaded from London. In addition, buses in Bristol which have had "local identity" applied display "West of England" rather than "Bristol", which has added to the antagonism against First. The contempt with which First treat the Bristol area is an insult.
I just wonder whether First may be tempted to pull the plug on the old Bristol Omnibus Company area given the constant flak that they are taking from everybody in the area. I certainly hope so.
Looks like Rotala should have gone for Bristol not Redditch or Kiddeminster the Wessex fleet is one of the best and I hear has a lot of good press from the public I know some of the blokes at BOC Bristol use them regular as First are crap.
They might try and buy Bristol as well.
I very much doubt Rotala could afford First's Bristol operation, I also very much doubt it is being considered for sale either
If Rotala give them a good offer, they're going to be quite likely to sell it because everything seems to be going very slowly towards the 100 million total.
Quote from: NXWM Spectra on February 06, 2013, 04:48:24 PM
I very much doubt Rotala could afford First's Bristol operation, I also very much doubt it is being considered for sale either
If Rotala give them a good offer, they're going to be quite likely to sell it because everything seems to be going very slowly towards the 100 million total.
[/quote]
Rotala do not have the funds to make a good offer, Rotala are already in debt up to their eyeballs....
Quote from: Winston on February 06, 2013, 04:56:47 PM
Quote from: NXWM Spectra on February 06, 2013, 04:48:24 PM
I very much doubt Rotala could afford First's Bristol operation, I also very much doubt it is being considered for sale either
If Rotala give them a good offer, they're going to be quite likely to sell it because everything seems to be going very slowly towards the 100 million total.
I thought Rotala were in big debt though they did scrape together £1.5 million for First Redditch and Kiddiminster.
Rotala do not have the funds to make a good offer, Rotala are already in debt up to their eyeballs....
[/quote]
Quote from: NXWM Spectra on February 06, 2013, 05:02:55 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 06, 2013, 04:56:47 PM
Quote from: NXWM Spectra on February 06, 2013, 04:48:24 PM
I very much doubt Rotala could afford First's Bristol operation, I also very much doubt it is being considered for sale either
If Rotala give them a good offer, they're going to be quite likely to sell it because everything seems to be going very slowly towards the 100 million total.
I thought Rotala were in big debt though they did scrape together £1.5 million for First Redditch and Kiddiminster.
Rotala do not have the funds to make a good offer, Rotala are already in debt up to their eyeballs....
Rotala have taken on further debt via a new £11 million banking facility with RBS. Of which to date they have spent £1.8 million buying Avonmouth Depot for Wessex & £1.5 Million buying Redditch & Kidderminster off First Group, leaving £7.7 Million remaining. The combined new Redditch & Kidderminster Diamond operations could do with some new fleet investment, so further may come out of the remaining pot yet.
Quote from: Winston on February 06, 2013, 05:28:28 PM
Quote from: NXWM Spectra on February 06, 2013, 05:02:55 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 06, 2013, 04:56:47 PM
Quote from: NXWM Spectra on February 06, 2013, 04:48:24 PM
I very much doubt Rotala could afford First's Bristol operation, I also very much doubt it is being considered for sale either
If Rotala give them a good offer, they're going to be quite likely to sell it because everything seems to be going very slowly towards the 100 million total.
I thought Rotala were in big debt though they did scrape together £1.5 million for First Redditch and Kiddiminster.
Rotala do not have the funds to make a good offer, Rotala are already in debt up to their eyeballs....
Rotala have taken on further debt via a new £11 million banking facility with RBS. Of which to date they have spent £1.8 million buying Avonmouth Depot for Wessex & £1.5 Million buying Redditch & Kidderminster off First Group, leaving £7.7 Million remaining. The combined new Redditch & Kidderminster Diamond operations could do with some new fleet investment, so further may come out of the remaining pot yet.
I would agree with that. If they are successfull then they need to buy now because the people of Redditch have come a custom to the Enviro 300's and it will be a shock when aload of Darts appear. Kiddy isnt as bad as they are used to Darts.
Quote from: tank90 on February 06, 2013, 05:40:55 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 06, 2013, 05:28:28 PM
Quote from: NXWM Spectra on February 06, 2013, 05:02:55 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 06, 2013, 04:56:47 PM
Quote from: NXWM Spectra on February 06, 2013, 04:48:24 PM
I very much doubt Rotala could afford First's Bristol operation, I also very much doubt it is being considered for sale either
If Rotala give them a good offer, they're going to be quite likely to sell it because everything seems to be going very slowly towards the 100 million total.
I thought Rotala were in big debt though they did scrape together £1.5 million for First Redditch and Kiddiminster.
Rotala do not have the funds to make a good offer, Rotala are already in debt up to their eyeballs....
Rotala have taken on further debt via a new £11 million banking facility with RBS. Of which to date they have spent £1.8 million buying Avonmouth Depot for Wessex & £1.5 Million buying Redditch & Kidderminster off First Group, leaving £7.7 Million remaining. The combined new Redditch & Kidderminster Diamond operations could do with some new fleet investment, so further may come out of the remaining pot yet.
I would agree with that. If they are successfull then they need to buy now because the people of Redditch have come a custom to the Enviro 300's and it will be a shock when aload of Darts appear. Kiddy isnt as bad as they are used to Darts.
there are 3 enviros bold to diamond , , then they could be based at Kidderminster for X3/3 use.
The X3 certainly needs the capacity of Enviros at times rather than Darts. This route seems to be getting more and more successful, one of the rare success stories of First in this area in my opinion, so it would be a shame to make the route suffer by cramming passengers into Darts.
Quote from: tank90 on February 06, 2013, 05:40:55 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 06, 2013, 05:28:28 PM
Quote from: NXWM Spectra on February 06, 2013, 05:02:55 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 06, 2013, 04:56:47 PM
Quote from: NXWM Spectra on February 06, 2013, 04:48:24 PM
I very much doubt Rotala could afford First's Bristol operation, I also very much doubt it is being considered for sale either
If Rotala give them a good offer, they're going to be quite likely to sell it because everything seems to be going very slowly towards the 100 million total.
I thought Rotala were in big debt though they did scrape together £1.5 million for First Redditch and Kiddiminster.
Rotala do not have the funds to make a good offer, Rotala are already in debt up to their eyeballs....
Rotala have taken on further debt via a new £11 million banking facility with RBS. Of which to date they have spent £1.8 million buying Avonmouth Depot for Wessex & £1.5 Million buying Redditch & Kidderminster off First Group, leaving £7.7 Million remaining. The combined new Redditch & Kidderminster Diamond operations could do with some new fleet investment, so further may come out of the remaining pot yet.
I would agree with that. If they are successfull then they need to buy now because the people of Redditch have come a custom to the Enviro 300's and it will be a shock when aload of Darts appear. Kiddy isnt as bad as they are used to Darts.
as someone from Kidderminster we may be use to dart but would be nice to have something different and newer
Quote from: D10 on February 06, 2013, 09:07:01 PM
The X3 certainly needs the capacity of Enviros at times rather than Darts. This route seems to be getting more and more successful, one of the rare success stories of First in this area in my opinion, so it would be a shame to make the route suffer by cramming passengers into Darts.
never seen a x 3 at the Kidderminster with a load that a 35 seater dart can handle, the 303 is a route that could use something bigger than a dart
Quote from: bowler on February 06, 2013, 10:33:50 PM
Quote from: D10 on February 06, 2013, 09:07:01 PM
The X3 certainly needs the capacity of Enviros at times rather than Darts. This route seems to be getting more and more successful, one of the rare success stories of First in this area in my opinion, so it would be a shame to make the route suffer by cramming passengers into Darts.
never seen a x 3 at the Kidderminster with a load that a 35 seater dart can handle, the 303 is a route that could use something bigger than a dart
this is how first line should read typing error
never seen a x 3 at the Kidderminster with a load that a 35 seater dart can not handlet
Quote from: bowler on February 06, 2013, 11:30:31 PM
never seen a x 3 at the Kidderminster with a load that a 35 seater dart can not handlet
if I'm honest I think it's the other end of the route which is busier, everytime I've seen it at Bromsgrove heading to redditch it's a full load (although I dont go to Bromsgrove that often now)
ex Worcester park & and ride y reg dart 42353 was operating in Kidderminster today on locals seen one for just over a week today was first time I could id it, seams strange with sale, do diamond own the Kidderminster and Redditch depots and vehicles yet?
I would assume with it being a Hereford bus it was at Kidderminster for MOT while Kidderminster and Redditch are still owned by First they may as well take advantage of it! The Dart would be used if service if required, thats always been the way it happens.
wondered if first where moving the 54 reg darts from Kidderminster and replacing them with older ones
Quote from: bowler on February 11, 2013, 07:45:33 PM
wondered if first where moving the 54 reg darts from Kidderminster and replacing them with older ones
Rotala tell me the vehicles involved in the sales are fixed to what is listed on the Diamond fleetlist page on the main site
do you know if which colour diamond it will operating the ex first services red, blue, or black
Quote from: bowler on February 12, 2013, 11:34:00 AM
do you know if which colour diamond it will operating the ex first services red, blue, or black
If the West Midlands is anything to go by any even when it supposed to be either black or blue diamond.
Would imagine they will be red/blue/black or red&white,ie any colour.
Barbie Diamond? :-)
Quote from: trainbasher on February 13, 2013, 08:39:12 PM
Barbie Diamond? :-)
there will be diamond buses in Barbie livery (with diamond vinlys) until the ex first vehicles are painted those that are being kept
With 2 weeks to go till First kidderminster
& Redditch be come diamond bus any know
What buses there r keeping /getting
Quote from: Solo1 on February 17, 2013, 01:40:45 PM
With 2 weeks to go till First kidderminster
& Redditch be come diamond bus any know
What buses there r keeping /getting
Do we also take the silence from the Dft that the Redditch part of the transaction will go though without an investigation
Quote from: Solo1 on February 17, 2013, 01:40:45 PM
With 2 weeks to go till First kidderminster
& Redditch be come diamond bus any know
What buses there r keeping /getting
The buses staying are listed on the main site, I have a list of what is provisionally to move, but it was not finalised when Rotala sent it to me. Mostly darts & Solos and currently at Long Acre being prepared and painted blue
Does anybody know the exact reason why they are being painted blue and not red. Is blue going to be for Kidderminster and red for Redditch.
It looks as if blue is to become the main colour.
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 01, 2013, 01:10:56 AM
I did suggest a swop for one of the Midland companies. One thing to bear in mind is that Stagecoach may be thwarted in any bid to purchase any further pieces of First. Also smaller companies are unlikely to buy pieces of First due to the number of them going belly-up.
South Wales will remain with First as they have had to take on Veolias work and there isnt an obvious alternative unless Arriva , Centrebus and Go-Ahead want to move into new areas.
Centrebus could buy Northampton, but Plymouth could be difficult to sell because Go-Ahead/Stagecoach would be barred. I think because of the OFT First will have a hard job disposing of any operation. The logical companies would create a monopoly and the small timers are too weak to take on big company assets. One only has to look at the amount Go-Ahead hoovered up in East Anglia in 2012!
I think there is NO CHANCE of First finding £82 million of assets to sell by Easter unless the Scottish Government nationalises First's Scottish operations! Not a bad idea, but the free market zealots would have a fit!
sconehead85
There's a post on the GM buses Yahoo group that suggests Stagecoach have now offered First Group £36.2 million to buy their Bolton & Bury operations as well, I'd bus surprised if they accepted as they may as well dispose of the rest of Manchester if they sell off those two garages. But it does go to show that they could easily raise the £82 million shortfall by sacrificing one decent operation. Personally I think they should retain all the large former PTE operations and sell of some of the smaller operations Potteries, Leicester, Wyvern, Berkshire etc
Quote from: midlandred2003 on February 17, 2013, 02:09:45 PM
It looks as if blue is to become the main colour.
I just thought it would be much simpler to have:
Black diamond - Black country
Blue diamond - Birmingham and Coventry
Red diamond - Redditch and Kidderminster
I still just don't get the reasoning of all blue buses with diamond fleet names it just creates confusion.
.
Quote from: Ash on February 17, 2013, 05:04:24 PM
Quote from: midlandred2003 on February 17, 2013, 02:09:45 PM
It looks as if blue is to become the main colour.
I just thought it would be much simpler to have:
Black diamond - Black country
Blue diamond - Birmingham and Coventry
Red diamond - Redditch and Kidderminster
I still just don't get the reasoning of all blue buses with diamond fleet names it just creates confusion.
.
There's a Diamond white pictured on their revamped website as well
Quote from: Ash on February 17, 2013, 05:04:24 PM
Quote from: midlandred2003 on February 17, 2013, 02:09:45 PM
It looks as if blue is to become the main colour.
I just thought it would be much simpler to have:
Black diamond - Black country
Blue diamond - Birmingham and Coventry
Red diamond - Redditch and Kidderminster
I still just don't get the reasoning of all blue buses with diamond fleet names it just creates confusion.
.
All blue creates confusion? - no all blue makes things simple
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 04:47:40 PM
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 01, 2013, 01:10:56 AM
I did suggest a swop for one of the Midland companies. One thing to bear in mind is that Stagecoach may be thwarted in any bid to purchase any further pieces of First. Also smaller companies are unlikely to buy pieces of First due to the number of them going belly-up.
South Wales will remain with First as they have had to take on Veolias work and there isnt an obvious alternative unless Arriva , Centrebus and Go-Ahead want to move into new areas.
Centrebus could buy Northampton, but Plymouth could be difficult to sell because Go-Ahead/Stagecoach would be barred. I think because of the OFT First will have a hard job disposing of any operation. The logical companies would create a monopoly and the small timers are too weak to take on big company assets. One only has to look at the amount Go-Ahead hoovered up in East Anglia in 2012!
I think there is NO CHANCE of First finding £82 million of assets to sell by Easter unless the Scottish Government nationalises First's Scottish operations! Not a bad idea, but the free market zealots would have a fit!
sconehead85
There's a post on the GM buses Yahoo group that suggests Stagecoach have now offered First Group £36.2 million to buy their Bolton & Bury operations as well, I'd bus surprised if they accepted as they may as well dispose of the rest of Manchester if they sell off those two garages. But it does go to show that they could easily raise the £82 million shortfall by sacrificing one decent operation. Personally I think they should retain all the large former PTE operations and sell of some of the smaller operations Potteries, Leicester, Wyvern, Berkshire etc
There's also suggestions on another Forum that First may now been prepared to sell their entire London bus operation to meet the disposal targets, I'd personally like to see NX Group re-enter the London bus market on scale, a deal like that could add another 885 buses to its UK bus business
Quote from: Ash on February 17, 2013, 05:04:24 PM
Quote from: midlandred2003 on February 17, 2013, 02:09:45 PM
It looks as if blue is to become the main colour.
I just thought it would be much simpler to have:
Black diamond - Black country
Blue diamond - Birmingham and Coventry
Red diamond - Redditch and Kidderminster
I still just don't get the reasoning of all blue buses with diamond fleet names it just creates confusion.
.
I think Diamond should have all buses based at both Long Acre & Tividale blue and the Redditch & Kidderminster operations retain the red
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 05:28:11 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 04:47:40 PM
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 01, 2013, 01:10:56 AM
I did suggest a swop for one of the Midland companies. One thing to bear in mind is that Stagecoach may be thwarted in any bid to purchase any further pieces of First. Also smaller companies are unlikely to buy pieces of First due to the number of them going belly-up.
South Wales will remain with First as they have had to take on Veolias work and there isnt an obvious alternative unless Arriva , Centrebus and Go-Ahead want to move into new areas.
Centrebus could buy Northampton, but Plymouth could be difficult to sell because Go-Ahead/Stagecoach would be barred. I think because of the OFT First will have a hard job disposing of any operation. The logical companies would create a monopoly and the small timers are too weak to take on big company assets. One only has to look at the amount Go-Ahead hoovered up in East Anglia in 2012!
I think there is NO CHANCE of First finding £82 million of assets to sell by Easter unless the Scottish Government nationalises First's Scottish operations! Not a bad idea, but the free market zealots would have a fit!
sconehead85
There's a post on the GM buses Yahoo group that suggests Stagecoach have now offered First Group £36.2 million to buy their Bolton & Bury operations as well, I'd bus surprised if they accepted as they may as well dispose of the rest of Manchester if they sell off those two garages. But it does go to show that they could easily raise the £82 million shortfall by sacrificing one decent operation. Personally I think they should retain all the large former PTE operations and sell of some of the smaller operations Potteries, Leicester, Wyvern, Berkshire etc
There's also suggestions on another Forum that First may now been prepared to sell their entire London bus operation to meet the disposal targets, I'd personally like to see NX Group re-enter the London bus market on scale, a deal like that could add another 885 buses to its UK bus business
I would also like NatEx to reenter London as long as this doesnt divert resources away from the west midlands like last time
Quote from: Peter123 on February 17, 2013, 05:31:18 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 05:28:11 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 04:47:40 PM
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 01, 2013, 01:10:56 AM
I did suggest a swop for one of the Midland companies. One thing to bear in mind is that Stagecoach may be thwarted in any bid to purchase any further pieces of First. Also smaller companies are unlikely to buy pieces of First due to the number of them going belly-up.
South Wales will remain with First as they have had to take on Veolias work and there isnt an obvious alternative unless Arriva , Centrebus and Go-Ahead want to move into new areas.
Centrebus could buy Northampton, but Plymouth could be difficult to sell because Go-Ahead/Stagecoach would be barred. I think because of the OFT First will have a hard job disposing of any operation. The logical companies would create a monopoly and the small timers are too weak to take on big company assets. One only has to look at the amount Go-Ahead hoovered up in East Anglia in 2012!
I think there is NO CHANCE of First finding £82 million of assets to sell by Easter unless the Scottish Government nationalises First's Scottish operations! Not a bad idea, but the free market zealots would have a fit!
sconehead85
There's a post on the GM buses Yahoo group that suggests Stagecoach have now offered First Group £36.2 million to buy their Bolton & Bury operations as well, I'd bus surprised if they accepted as they may as well dispose of the rest of Manchester if they sell off those two garages. But it does go to show that they could easily raise the £82 million shortfall by sacrificing one decent operation. Personally I think they should retain all the large former PTE operations and sell of some of the smaller operations Potteries, Leicester, Wyvern, Berkshire etc
There's also suggestions on another Forum that First may now been prepared to sell their entire London bus operation to meet the disposal targets, I'd personally like to see NX Group re-enter the London bus market on scale, a deal like that could add another 885 buses to its UK bus business
I would also like NatEx to reenter London as long as this doesnt divert resources away from the west midlands like last time
Yes I agree, investment levels in new buses would need to be maintained in both the West Midlands & Dundee, it would give them the option of having midlife buses available to cascade as well to help remove the remaining early low floor single deckers.
Bowker should never have sold the original Travel London business to Abellio in the first place, the London bus fleet excluding surrey now accounts for 502 vehicles and I understand most garages are at or near full capacity with new tender wins / retained tenders
Quote from: Tony on February 17, 2013, 05:26:04 PM
Quote from: Ash on February 17, 2013, 05:04:24 PM
Quote from: midlandred2003 on February 17, 2013, 02:09:45 PM
It looks as if blue is to become the main colour.
I just thought it would be much simpler to have:
Black diamond - Black country
Blue diamond - Birmingham and Coventry
Red diamond - Redditch and Kidderminster
I still just don't get the reasoning of all blue buses with diamond fleet names it just creates confusion.
.
All blue creates confusion? - no all blue makes things simple
It would make things simpler if every bus of diamond was blue but not when you get blue/red/black and red and white diamond all on one route that's what i meant sorry if i confused people but that's similar to how passengers feel when this happens like it does on the 4/4H and 4M service and colour bus goes theory.
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 05:36:37 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on February 17, 2013, 05:31:18 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 05:28:11 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 04:47:40 PM
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 01, 2013, 01:10:56 AM
I did suggest a swop for one of the Midland companies. One thing to bear in mind is that Stagecoach may be thwarted in any bid to purchase any further pieces of First. Also smaller companies are unlikely to buy pieces of First due to the number of them going belly-up.
South Wales will remain with First as they have had to take on Veolias work and there isnt an obvious alternative unless Arriva , Centrebus and Go-Ahead want to move into new areas.
Centrebus could buy Northampton, but Plymouth could be difficult to sell because Go-Ahead/Stagecoach would be barred. I think because of the OFT First will have a hard job disposing of any operation. The logical companies would create a monopoly and the small timers are too weak to take on big company assets. One only has to look at the amount Go-Ahead hoovered up in East Anglia in 2012!
I think there is NO CHANCE of First finding £82 million of assets to sell by Easter unless the Scottish Government nationalises First's Scottish operations! Not a bad idea, but the free market zealots would have a fit!
sconehead85
There's a post on the GM buses Yahoo group that suggests Stagecoach have now offered First Group £36.2 million to buy their Bolton & Bury operations as well, I'd bus surprised if they accepted as they may as well dispose of the rest of Manchester if they sell off those two garages. But it does go to show that they could easily raise the £82 million shortfall by sacrificing one decent operation. Personally I think they should retain all the large former PTE operations and sell of some of the smaller operations Potteries, Leicester, Wyvern, Berkshire etc
There's also suggestions on another Forum that First may now been prepared to sell their entire London bus operation to meet the disposal targets, I'd personally like to see NX Group re-enter the London bus market on scale, a deal like that could add another 885 buses to its UK bus business
I would also like NatEx to reenter London as long as this doesnt divert resources away from the west midlands like last time
Yes I agree, investment levels in new buses would need to be maintained in both the West Midlands & Dundee, it would give them the option of having midlife buses available to cascade as well to help remove the remaining early low floor single deckers.
Bowker should never have sold the original Travel London business to Abellio in the first place, the London bus fleet excluding surrey now accounts for 502 vehicles and I understand most garages are at or near full capacity with new tender wins / retained tenders
Im sure NX have the money and the clout to do well in London this time tho having a London operation is dangerous as last time resources were diverted away and First boast of all this investment-London soaked most of it up!!, wrecking their other operations
Quote from: Peter123 on February 17, 2013, 05:43:05 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 05:36:37 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on February 17, 2013, 05:31:18 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 05:28:11 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 04:47:40 PM
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 01, 2013, 01:10:56 AM
I did suggest a swop for one of the Midland companies. One thing to bear in mind is that Stagecoach may be thwarted in any bid to purchase any further pieces of First. Also smaller companies are unlikely to buy pieces of First due to the number of them going belly-up.
South Wales will remain with First as they have had to take on Veolias work and there isnt an obvious alternative unless Arriva , Centrebus and Go-Ahead want to move into new areas.
Centrebus could buy Northampton, but Plymouth could be difficult to sell because Go-Ahead/Stagecoach would be barred. I think because of the OFT First will have a hard job disposing of any operation. The logical companies would create a monopoly and the small timers are too weak to take on big company assets. One only has to look at the amount Go-Ahead hoovered up in East Anglia in 2012!
I think there is NO CHANCE of First finding £82 million of assets to sell by Easter unless the Scottish Government nationalises First's Scottish operations! Not a bad idea, but the free market zealots would have a fit!
sconehead85
There's a post on the GM buses Yahoo group that suggests Stagecoach have now offered First Group £36.2 million to buy their Bolton & Bury operations as well, I'd bus surprised if they accepted as they may as well dispose of the rest of Manchester if they sell off those two garages. But it does go to show that they could easily raise the £82 million shortfall by sacrificing one decent operation. Personally I think they should retain all the large former PTE operations and sell of some of the smaller operations Potteries, Leicester, Wyvern, Berkshire etc
There's also suggestions on another Forum that First may now been prepared to sell their entire London bus operation to meet the disposal targets, I'd personally like to see NX Group re-enter the London bus market on scale, a deal like that could add another 885 buses to its UK bus business
I would also like NatEx to reenter London as long as this doesnt divert resources away from the west midlands like last time
Yes I agree, investment levels in new buses would need to be maintained in both the West Midlands & Dundee, it would give them the option of having midlife buses available to cascade as well to help remove the remaining early low floor single deckers.
Bowker should never have sold the original Travel London business to Abellio in the first place, the London bus fleet excluding surrey now accounts for 502 vehicles and I understand most garages are at or near full capacity with new tender wins / retained tenders
Im sure NX have the money and the clout to do well in London this time tho having a London operation is dangerous as last time resources were diverted away and First boast of all this investment-London soaked most of it up!!, wrecking their other operations
NX have funds available to make acquisitions once again, now would be the optimum time to acquire First's London bus business as First have invested heavily in new vehicles for new / renewed tenders and have a very modern fleet. I understand that there are very few of First's current routes up for re-tender / any new routes available that First could bid for in the next 12 - 18 months. Therefore fleet investment should be minimal until the next round of tenders in First operating areas
I take it the 2 blue diamond buses at Tividale
Going to redditch as well
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 05:56:20 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on February 17, 2013, 05:43:05 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 05:36:37 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on February 17, 2013, 05:31:18 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 05:28:11 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 04:47:40 PM
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 01, 2013, 01:10:56 AM
I did suggest a swop for one of the Midland companies. One thing to bear in mind is that Stagecoach may be thwarted in any bid to purchase any further pieces of First. Also smaller companies are unlikely to buy pieces of First due to the number of them going belly-up.
South Wales will remain with First as they have had to take on Veolias work and there isnt an obvious alternative unless Arriva , Centrebus and Go-Ahead want to move into new areas.
Centrebus could buy Northampton, but Plymouth could be difficult to sell because Go-Ahead/Stagecoach would be barred. I think because of the OFT First will have a hard job disposing of any operation. The logical companies would create a monopoly and the small timers are too weak to take on big company assets. One only has to look at the amount Go-Ahead hoovered up in East Anglia in 2012!
I think there is NO CHANCE of First finding £82 million of assets to sell by Easter unless the Scottish Government nationalises First's Scottish operations! Not a bad idea, but the free market zealots would have a fit!
sconehead85
There's a post on the GM buses Yahoo group that suggests Stagecoach have now offered First Group £36.2 million to buy their Bolton & Bury operations as well, I'd bus surprised if they accepted as they may as well dispose of the rest of Manchester if they sell off those two garages. But it does go to show that they could easily raise the £82 million shortfall by sacrificing one decent operation. Personally I think they should retain all the large former PTE operations and sell of some of the smaller operations Potteries, Leicester, Wyvern, Berkshire etc
There's also suggestions on another Forum that First may now been prepared to sell their entire London bus operation to meet the disposal targets, I'd personally like to see NX Group re-enter the London bus market on scale, a deal like that could add another 885 buses to its UK bus business
I would also like NatEx to reenter London as long as this doesnt divert resources away from the west midlands like last time
Yes I agree, investment levels in new buses would need to be maintained in both the West Midlands & Dundee, it would give them the option of having midlife buses available to cascade as well to help remove the remaining early low floor single deckers.
Bowker should never have sold the original Travel London business to Abellio in the first place, the London bus fleet excluding surrey now accounts for 502 vehicles and I understand most garages are at or near full capacity with new tender wins / retained tenders
Im sure NX have the money and the clout to do well in London this time tho having a London operation is dangerous as last time resources were diverted away and First boast of all this investment-London soaked most of it up!!, wrecking their other operations
NX have funds available to make acquisitions once again, now would be the optimum time to acquire First's London bus business as First have invested heavily in new vehicles for new / renewed tenders and have a very modern fleet. I understand that there are very few of First's current routes up for re-tender / any new routes available that First could bid for in the next 12 - 18 months. Therefore fleet investment should be minimal until the next round of tenders in First operating areas
I am no expert but if NX went back to London I can see the West Mids suffering the fleet of First may be new but with the constant LEZ changes and regulations TFL come up with any new buses would go there again I see London as a white elephant consistantly throwing money at it.
Quote from: Discodave on February 17, 2013, 09:38:51 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 05:56:20 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on February 17, 2013, 05:43:05 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 05:36:37 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on February 17, 2013, 05:31:18 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 05:28:11 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 04:47:40 PM
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 01, 2013, 01:10:56 AM
I did suggest a swop for one of the Midland companies. One thing to bear in mind is that Stagecoach may be thwarted in any bid to purchase any further pieces of First. Also smaller companies are unlikely to buy pieces of First due to the number of them going belly-up.
South Wales will remain with First as they have had to take on Veolias work and there isnt an obvious alternative unless Arriva , Centrebus and Go-Ahead want to move into new areas.
Centrebus could buy Northampton, but Plymouth could be difficult to sell because Go-Ahead/Stagecoach would be barred. I think because of the OFT First will have a hard job disposing of any operation. The logical companies would create a monopoly and the small timers are too weak to take on big company assets. One only has to look at the amount Go-Ahead hoovered up in East Anglia in 2012!
I think there is NO CHANCE of First finding £82 million of assets to sell by Easter unless the Scottish Government nationalises First's Scottish operations! Not a bad idea, but the free market zealots would have a fit!
sconehead85
There's a post on the GM buses Yahoo group that suggests Stagecoach have now offered First Group £36.2 million to buy their Bolton & Bury operations as well, I'd bus surprised if they accepted as they may as well dispose of the rest of Manchester if they sell off those two garages. But it does go to show that they could easily raise the £82 million shortfall by sacrificing one decent operation. Personally I think they should retain all the large former PTE operations and sell of some of the smaller operations Potteries, Leicester, Wyvern, Berkshire etc
There's also suggestions on another Forum that First may now been prepared to sell their entire London bus operation to meet the disposal targets, I'd personally like to see NX Group re-enter the London bus market on scale, a deal like that could add another 885 buses to its UK bus business
I would also like NatEx to reenter London as long as this doesnt divert resources away from the west midlands like last time
Yes I agree, investment levels in new buses would need to be maintained in both the West Midlands & Dundee, it would give them the option of having midlife buses available to cascade as well to help remove the remaining early low floor single deckers.
Bowker should never have sold the original Travel London business to Abellio in the first place, the London bus fleet excluding surrey now accounts for 502 vehicles and I understand most garages are at or near full capacity with new tender wins / retained tenders
Im sure NX have the money and the clout to do well in London this time tho having a London operation is dangerous as last time resources were diverted away and First boast of all this investment-London soaked most of it up!!, wrecking their other operations
NX have funds available to make acquisitions once again, now would be the optimum time to acquire First's London bus business as First have invested heavily in new vehicles for new / renewed tenders and have a very modern fleet. I understand that there are very few of First's current routes up for re-tender / any new routes available that First could bid for in the next 12 - 18 months. Therefore fleet investment should be minimal until the next round of tenders in First operating areas
I am no expert but if NX went back to London I can see the West Mids suffering the fleet of First may be new but with the constant LEZ changes and regulations TFL come up with any new buses would go there again I see London as a white elephant consistantly throwing money at it.
As TfL is buying 600 Borismasters and telling operators of new contracts they must use them on lease from TfL the 'all new vehicles go to London' problem that first, and to a degree Stagecoach before them had won't be a problem.
Quote from: Tony on February 17, 2013, 09:48:17 PM
Quote from: Discodave on February 17, 2013, 09:38:51 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 05:56:20 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on February 17, 2013, 05:43:05 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 05:36:37 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on February 17, 2013, 05:31:18 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 05:28:11 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 17, 2013, 04:47:40 PM
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 01, 2013, 01:10:56 AM
I did suggest a swop for one of the Midland companies. One thing to bear in mind is that Stagecoach may be thwarted in any bid to purchase any further pieces of First. Also smaller companies are unlikely to buy pieces of First due to the number of them going belly-up.
South Wales will remain with First as they have had to take on Veolias work and there isnt an obvious alternative unless Arriva , Centrebus and Go-Ahead want to move into new areas.
Centrebus could buy Northampton, but Plymouth could be difficult to sell because Go-Ahead/Stagecoach would be barred. I think because of the OFT First will have a hard job disposing of any operation. The logical companies would create a monopoly and the small timers are too weak to take on big company assets. One only has to look at the amount Go-Ahead hoovered up in East Anglia in 2012!
I think there is NO CHANCE of First finding £82 million of assets to sell by Easter unless the Scottish Government nationalises First's Scottish operations! Not a bad idea, but the free market zealots would have a fit!
sconehead85
There's a post on the GM buses Yahoo group that suggests Stagecoach have now offered First Group £36.2 million to buy their Bolton & Bury operations as well, I'd bus surprised if they accepted as they may as well dispose of the rest of Manchester if they sell off those two garages. But it does go to show that they could easily raise the £82 million shortfall by sacrificing one decent operation. Personally I think they should retain all the large former PTE operations and sell of some of the smaller operations Potteries, Leicester, Wyvern, Berkshire etc
There's also suggestions on another Forum that First may now been prepared to sell their entire London bus operation to meet the disposal targets, I'd personally like to see NX Group re-enter the London bus market on scale, a deal like that could add another 885 buses to its UK bus business
I would also like NatEx to reenter London as long as this doesnt divert resources away from the west midlands like last time
Yes I agree, investment levels in new buses would need to be maintained in both the West Midlands & Dundee, it would give them the option of having midlife buses available to cascade as well to help remove the remaining early low floor single deckers.
Bowker should never have sold the original Travel London business to Abellio in the first place, the London bus fleet excluding surrey now accounts for 502 vehicles and I understand most garages are at or near full capacity with new tender wins / retained tenders
Im sure NX have the money and the clout to do well in London this time tho having a London operation is dangerous as last time resources were diverted away and First boast of all this investment-London soaked most of it up!!, wrecking their other operations
NX have funds available to make acquisitions once again, now would be the optimum time to acquire First's London bus business as First have invested heavily in new vehicles for new / renewed tenders and have a very modern fleet. I understand that there are very few of First's current routes up for re-tender / any new routes available that First could bid for in the next 12 - 18 months. Therefore fleet investment should be minimal until the next round of tenders in First operating areas
I am no expert but if NX went back to London I can see the West Mids suffering the fleet of First may be new but with the constant LEZ changes and regulations TFL come up with any new buses would go there again I see London as a white elephant consistantly throwing money at it.
As TfL is buying 600 Borismasters and telling operators of new contracts they must use them on lease from TfL the 'all new vehicles go to London' problem that first, and to a degree Stagecoach before them had won't be a problem.
In addition, NX have made commitments to Centro on the numbers of new vehicles they will be purchasing over a set period as part of their Quality Contract
There's little money in London contracts which operate on wafer thin margins as a result of the tendering process. TfL are even cutting the "bonuses" they pay operators for good route performance so they can save money.
It would indeed be strange if NX went back into London as it would be the fourth time, first with the purchase of Westlink - sold to London United, then setting up Travel London - sold to Connex, then buying the Connex and TGM operations and recreating Travel London - sold to Abellio.
I take it that First are to renumber the enviros as 67644/5/6 are to leave the fleet. 67631 to become 67605
Quote from: tank90 on February 18, 2013, 07:53:20 PM
I take it that First are to renumber the enviros as 67644/5/6 are to leave the fleet. 67631 to become 67605
Why would First renumber any buses?
As far as I am aware their current computer database doesn't allow for any fleetnumber to be used twice or renumbering.
To prove a point on this South West had a batch of Enviro 200s in 2008 numbered 44902-14. When these were entered onto First's computer 44904 was accidently entered as 44094, because it couldn't be changed it was re-entered as the correct number as another vehicle and the incorrect 44094 was just marked as 'disposed of'
A year later London took delivery of a batch of Enviro 200s numbered 44083-44128, but there is no 44094! This is because that incorrect entry is stopping another vehicle being numbered 44094 and the wrong 44094 cannot be renumbered
Tony,this is a very interesting point and on a small scale is yet further indication of First's inflexability which is endemic throughout the group.
A company which cannot adjust to small things will surely need a complete change of mindset to adjust to the major changes needed to modernise both the fleet and the operations.
If Mr Fearnley and his team succeed in turning First round they will be far more deserving of a knighthood than certain other group management were,and I for one hope they are successful.
Quote from: JoNi on February 18, 2013, 02:24:13 PM
There's little money in London contracts which operate on wafer thin margins as a result of the tendering process. TfL are even cutting the "bonuses" they pay operators for good route performance so they can save money.
Profit margins aren't a big as in the deregulated areas, but they are still fairly decent. Go-ahead Group are more than happy with their London margins as demonstrated by their recent purchase of First London Northumberland Park depot, they are also rapidly approaching the max 25% market share limit, Stagecoach have also re-enter London.
I think for NX, buying a large London bus business or acquiring other bus operations that First are looking to dispose of is more sustainable & guaranteed in terms of turnover & profits than trying to win UK rail Franchises, even with the 15 year contracts. As can be seen by the loss of East Coast & NX East Anglia is has a massive loss on your turnover & profits which NX are still yet to replace
A lthough these are not in the Midlands, First should renumber 62411/2 (the first Enviros) to 67605/6 instead. I have thoughts about the entire First numbering system, which I would like to tackle elsewhere.
sconehead85
Is the transfer from First to Rotala still going ahead on 3 March? I know that Rotala said a month or so ago that this was the intended date, but neither the First nor the Diamond website has any mention of the transfer of services and there's only 10 days to go.
Quote from: Roy on February 21, 2013, 12:07:30 PM
Is the transfer from First to Rotala still going ahead on 3 March? I know that Rotala said a month or so ago that this was the intended date, but neither the First nor the Diamond website has any mention of the transfer of services and there's only 10 days to go.
As far Kidderminster staff are concerned they are in blue diamond jobs from 3/3/13
Quote from: bowler on February 21, 2013, 12:35:32 PM
As far Kidderminster staff are concerned they are in blue diamond jobs from 3/3/13
Thanks.
when will we see the list for what is been transfered to Kidderminster/|Redditch from Blue/black diamond
as its just over a wek away now
Quote from: Solo1 on February 21, 2013, 09:31:01 PM
when will we see the list for what is been transfered to Kidderminster/|Redditch from Blue/black diamond
as its just over a wek away now
I normally get a new fleetlist from Rotala at the beginning of each month, so hopefully the one at the beginning of March will have the finalised list on
30701 - MW52 PZP - http://www.flickr.com/photos/55059449@N06/8494452701/ - has been here a week or two, finally bothered to go and find it yesterday, Its not a bad bus, decent refurb inside and smart on the outside, a credit to Diamond!
Quote from: jc on February 21, 2013, 09:54:29 PM
30701 - MW52 PZP - http://www.flickr.com/photos/55059449@N06/8494452701/ - has been here a week or two, finally bothered to go and find it yesterday, Its not a bad bus, decent refurb inside and smart on the outside, a credit to Diamond!
This bus was on the X30 today saw at Coventry was working the service along with a Solo. Must be back on loan to blue diamond for the day.
Could it have been the other one Ash? There are a pair of MW52 Darts running around in blue livery?
The only route that WCC has confermed to be withdarwn on the 4th March is Diamonds 51 the rest are still active which seems bizzare as I would have thought one of the 57/58s would be stopped from the 4th too.
The 51 was withdrawn before the First Group takeover.
are they sure about the livery as we have had some in black too still confused about what they will do in the new areas thought it would be red to go with redditch
Quote from: Discodave on February 22, 2013, 01:57:29 PM
are they sure about the livery as we have had some in black too still confused about what they will do in the new areas thought it would be red to go with redditch
I phone diamond up to ask a question about time tables , and at same time asked what colour diamond it would be in the ex first Kidderminster area and they told me it was going to be blue diamond,
Quote from: jc on February 22, 2013, 01:07:07 AM
Could it have been the other one Ash? There are a pair of MW52 Darts running around in blue livery?
It probably was then didn't realise there was a pair of MW52 darts at diamond thanks for the reply.
take a look at this link
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/
and go to n & P and then westmidlands 2013 22/2/13
stuff on there about Kidderminster and Redditch diamond depots
Quote from: bowler on February 22, 2013, 04:36:12 PM
take a look at this link
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/
and go to n & P and then westmidlands 2013 22/2/13
stuff on there about Kidderminster and Redditch diamond depots
Blimey the authorisation @ Tividale depot has dropped to 128
Quote from: Winston on February 22, 2013, 04:59:08 PM
Quote from: bowler on February 22, 2013, 04:36:12 PM
take a look at this link
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/
and go to n & P and then westmidlands 2013 22/2/13
stuff on there about Kidderminster and Redditch diamond depots
Blimey the authorisation @ Tividale depot has dropped to 128
I saw this and wondered what it was before. The number 194 pops into mind but Im not sure-I might have just made this up
And Plymouth Road has gained 10 slots from 50 to 60, but Kidder has 40 which could be because they are taking on some services maybe.
Looking futher down the Potteries may be gaining some of Worcesters Volvos in March as I cant see First giving Potteries Enviro 300's from Redditch.
Quote from: Peter123 on February 22, 2013, 05:01:52 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 22, 2013, 04:59:08 PM
Quote from: bowler on February 22, 2013, 04:36:12 PM
take a look at this link
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/
and go to n & P and then westmidlands 2013 22/2/13
stuff on there about Kidderminster and Redditch diamond depots
Blimey the authorisation @ Tividale depot has dropped to 128
I saw this and wondered what it was before. The number 194 pops into mind but Im not sure-I might have just made this up
I think when they absorbed Hill Top's allocation under Go West Midlands 228 buses rings a bell......
Quote from: Peter123 on February 22, 2013, 05:01:52 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 22, 2013, 04:59:08 PM
Quote from: bowler on February 22, 2013, 04:36:12 PM
take a look at this link
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/
and go to n & P and then westmidlands 2013 22/2/13
stuff on there about Kidderminster and Redditch diamond depots
Blimey the authorisation @ Tividale depot has dropped to 128
I saw this and wondered what it was before. The number 194 pops into mind but Im not sure-I might have just made this up
Looking on the Rotala website, it states the Black Diamonds fleet size is/was 112 buses, so has it been increased? Will some work transfer in from Blue Diamond & Long Acre be shut as an operational garage. It looks as though the 50 is moving to Redditch, will the 16 move back to Tividale along with other work from Long Acre?
Quote from: Winston on February 22, 2013, 06:15:19 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on February 22, 2013, 05:01:52 PM
Quote from: Winston on February 22, 2013, 04:59:08 PM
Quote from: bowler on February 22, 2013, 04:36:12 PM
take a look at this link
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/
and go to n & P and then westmidlands 2013 22/2/13
stuff on there about Kidderminster and Redditch diamond depots
Blimey the authorisation @ Tividale depot has dropped to 128
I saw this and wondered what it was before. The number 194 pops into mind but Im not sure-I might have just made this up
I think when they absorbed Hill Top's allocation under Go West Midlands 228 buses rings a bell......
You are correct. I have 228v recorded when they took over Go West Midlands.
Quote from: Winston on February 23, 2013, 12:22:12 AM
Looking on the Rotala website, it states the Black Diamonds fleet size is/was 112 buses, so has it been increased? Will some work transfer in from Blue Diamond & Long Acre be shut as an operational garage. It looks as though the 50 is moving to Redditch, will the 16 move back to Tividale along with other work from Long Acre?
Isn't 128 just the maximum number of vehicles authorized at the site and not necessarily the actual number.
Quote from: busfan2847 on February 23, 2013, 12:48:25 AM
Quote from: Winston on February 23, 2013, 12:22:12 AM
Looking on the Rotala website, it states the Black Diamonds fleet size is/was 112 buses, so has it been increased? Will some work transfer in from Blue Diamond & Long Acre be shut as an operational garage. It looks as though the 50 is moving to Redditch, will the 16 move back to Tividale along with other work from Long Acre?
Isn't 128 just the maximum number of vehicles authorized at the site and not necessarily the actual number.
Yes absolutely, it means they can run up to that number of vehicles, so the actual number is likely to be slightly less to give room for more vehicles to be operated if the need arises.
Any news about NORTHAMPTON ?
sconehead85
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 24, 2013, 07:07:13 PM
Any news about NORTHAMPTON ?
sconehead85
All rumours regarding the areas on the original for sale list seem to have gone quiet. I would think that something will happen between now & the end of March which will be the end of First Groups financial year. As I've posted further up this thread the most rumours have been suggested First may be prepared to sell the entire London business
Winston- Were talking 1050 vehicles and ten depots here! Could it be that First may retain a SMALLER presence in London by selling off SOME depots? . The only takers would be a combination of Arriva, Abellio, Go-Ahead , RATP and Stagecoach. I dont think Rotala could afford London, and Transdev would be an outside bet. My hunch is SOME depots will be sold but First keeping five or six of the 10 depots. Desperation to sell doesnt mean willingness for others to buy.
sconehead85
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 24, 2013, 09:32:53 PM
Winston- Were talking 1050 vehicles and ten depots here! Could it be that First may retain a SMALLER presence in London by selling off SOME depots? . The only takers would be a combination of Arriva, Abellio, Go-Ahead , RATP and Stagecoach. I dont think Rotala could afford London, and Transdev would be an outside bet. My hunch is SOME depots will be sold but First keeping five or six of the 10 depots. Desperation to sell doesnt mean willingness for others to buy.
sconehead85
Northumberland Park is apparently in a bit of danger after losing several services
Quote from: Tony on February 24, 2013, 09:40:01 PM
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 24, 2013, 09:32:53 PM
Winston- Were talking 1050 vehicles and ten depots here! Could it be that First may retain a SMALLER presence in London by selling off SOME depots? . The only takers would be a combination of Arriva, Abellio, Go-Ahead , RATP and Stagecoach. I dont think Rotala could afford London, and Transdev would be an outside bet. My hunch is SOME depots will be sold but First keeping five or six of the 10 depots. Desperation to sell doesnt mean willingness for others to buy.
sconehead85
Northumberland Park is apparently in a bit of danger after losing several services
NP was sold to Go-Ahead last year, do you not mean First's Dagenham depot which has lost nearly half of its pvr about 45 buses worth of work to Stagecoach London?
Quote from: Winston on February 24, 2013, 09:48:52 PM
Quote from: Tony on February 24, 2013, 09:40:01 PM
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 24, 2013, 09:32:53 PM
Winston- Were talking 1050 vehicles and ten depots here! Could it be that First may retain a SMALLER presence in London by selling off SOME depots? . The only takers would be a combination of Arriva, Abellio, Go-Ahead , RATP and Stagecoach. I dont think Rotala could afford London, and Transdev would be an outside bet. My hunch is SOME depots will be sold but First keeping five or six of the 10 depots. Desperation to sell doesnt mean willingness for others to buy.
sconehead85
That's the one
Northumberland Park is apparently in a bit of danger after losing several services
NP was sold to Go-Ahead last year, do you not mean First's Dagenham depot which has lost nearly half of its pvr about 45 buses worth of work to Stagecoach London?
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 24, 2013, 09:32:53 PM
Winston- Were talking 1050 vehicles and ten depots here! Could it be that First may retain a SMALLER presence in London by selling off SOME depots? . The only takers would be a combination of Arriva, Abellio, Go-Ahead , RATP and Stagecoach. I dont think Rotala could afford London, and Transdev would be an outside bet. My hunch is SOME depots will be sold but First keeping five or six of the 10 depots. Desperation to sell doesnt mean willingness for others to buy.
sconehead85
Firsts London business is down to 883 (11.57% market share) buses since the sale of NP & only 9 depots remain. Go-Ahead are unlikey to be able to buy anymore as they are too near the max 25% market share threshold (currently at 23.69% with 1809 buses inc NP).
There is nothing to suggest that NX wouldn't be interested in making a retain to London (for the 4th time) with a much bigger operation possibly being for sale? The reason they sold Travel London last time was that it was a none core business due to its small size & would require too much investment to build it up at the time NX have high debt levels, obviously NX group are now under the helm of a different Chief Exec & also a former First Man who may know the business well
I honestly left out Northumberland Park when I counted the allocations in my HB Publications book, and may have counted buses which were in reserve or about to be cascaded. If First sold all the London operations they'd lose a supply of LF cascades which could cost First more in the long run.
Theres nothing to rule out National Express buying into London again I suppose. Another thought, (unlikely) is again a First-Nat Exp swap, one London depot for Dundee, which is the lingo of the business "non-core".
First should keep some London depots. I am unsure which depots would be sold in the event.
They would be unwise to cut off the cascade supply, particularly as Go-Ahead has woken up to the concept.
sconehead85
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 25, 2013, 01:56:47 AM
I honestly left out Northumberland Park when I counted the allocations in my HB Publications book, and may have counted buses which were in reserve or about to be cascaded. If First sold all the London operations they'd lose a supply of LF cascades which could cost First more in the long run.
Theres nothing to rule out National Express buying into London again I suppose. Another thought, (unlikely) is again a First-Nat Exp swap, one London depot for Dundee, which is the lingo of the business "non-core".
First should keep some London depots. I am unsure which depots would be sold in the event.
They would be unwise to cut off the cascade supply, particularly as Go-Ahead has woken up to the concept.
sconehead85
This is the site where my figures have come from
http://www.londonbusroutes.net/garages.htm
I'm pretty sure Dundee makes quite decent profit margins, more likely to be greater than a London garage. There was talk that NX were potentially interested in First's Livingston & Larbert operations which aren't located that far from Dundee, but all has gone quiet on that & most other sale rumours
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 25, 2013, 01:56:47 AM
I honestly left out Northumberland Park when I counted the allocations in my HB Publications book, and may have counted buses which were in reserve or about to be cascaded. If First sold all the London operations they'd lose a supply of LF cascades which could cost First more in the long run.
Theres nothing to rule out National Express buying into London again I suppose. Another thought, (unlikely) is again a First-Nat Exp swap, one London depot for Dundee, which is the lingo of the business "non-core".
First should keep some London depots. I am unsure which depots would be sold in the event.
They would be unwise to cut off the cascade supply, particularly as Go-Ahead has woken up to the concept.
sconehead85
It is the London vehicle cascade that has caused most of First's problems! Sending almost all new vehicles to London then other operators getting 7-10 year old London spec vehicles is a disasterous way to run a business. If you notice when Stagecoach bought back into London they made a point of saying they would
not be doing that. The vehicles they acquired with the purchase of East London/SELKENT are mostly owned so some of these are being sent around the country for school work replacing Olympians but all new vehicles are leased and will be returned to the leasor onced they have finished in London
Quote from: Tony on February 25, 2013, 07:35:08 AM
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 25, 2013, 01:56:47 AM
I honestly left out Northumberland Park when I counted the allocations in my HB Publications book, and may have counted buses which were in reserve or about to be cascaded. If First sold all the London operations they'd lose a supply of LF cascades which could cost First more in the long run.
Theres nothing to rule out National Express buying into London again I suppose. Another thought, (unlikely) is again a First-Nat Exp swap, one London depot for Dundee, which is the lingo of the business "non-core".
First should keep some London depots. I am unsure which depots would be sold in the event.
They would be unwise to cut off the cascade supply, particularly as Go-Ahead has woken up to the concept.
sconehead85
It is the London vehicle cascade that has caused most of First's problems! Sending almost all new vehicles to London then other operators getting 7-10 year old London spec vehicles is a disasterous way to run a business. If you notice when Stagecoach bought back into London they made a point of saying they would not be doing that. The vehicles they acquired with the purchase of East London/SELKENT are mostly owned so some of these are being sent around the country for school work replacing Olympians but all new vehicles are leased and will be returned to the leasor onced they have finished in London
Cascading from London can be a good source of 7-10 year old buses to replace older buses in other parts of the country, but it should be used in addition to buying new vehicles
check this link first have finally put something on there website
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/worcestershire_herefordshire/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=9581&conf=0
and this on for services
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/worcestershire_herefordshire/journey_planning/timetables/index.php?operator=14&page=1&redirect=no
Quote from: bowler on February 25, 2013, 07:23:50 PM
check this link first have finally put something on there website
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/worcestershire_herefordshire/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=9581&conf=0
as have diamond.
http://www.diamondbuses.com/news/DiamondareexpandinginWorcestershire_69.html
and they have released there fares too
http://www.diamondbuses.com/tickets.html
Does anyone think that the diamond redditch fares are unnecessarily confusing? And that it seems odd to have "red" in most of the fares when many of the buses there will ultimately be blue
Quote from: tank90 on February 25, 2013, 07:27:25 PM
Quote from: bowler on February 25, 2013, 07:23:50 PM
check this link first have finally put something on there website
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/worcestershire_herefordshire/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=9581&conf=0
as have diamond.
http://www.diamondbuses.com/news/DiamondareexpandinginWorcestershire_69.html
and they have released there fares too
http://www.diamondbuses.com/tickets.html
the diamond tickets and passes in Kidderminster are the same as they are with first's are now
Quote from: Peter123 on February 25, 2013, 07:31:18 PM
Does anyone think that the diamond redditch fares are unnecessarily confusing? And that it seems odd to have "red" in most of the fares when many of the buses there will ultimately be blue
I was just reading through them and they seem very complicated are the new fares of diamond cheaper/the same or more expensive compared to what first were charging. When are the buses that are supposed to be brought in for Redditch and Kidderminster going to arrive aren't there supposed to be a few solo's are darts from elsewhere in the group.
Quote from: tank90 on February 25, 2013, 07:27:25 PM
Quote from: bowler on February 25, 2013, 07:23:50 PM
check this link first have finally put something on there website
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/worcestershire_herefordshire/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=9581&conf=0
as have diamond.
http://www.diamondbuses.com/news/DiamondareexpandinginWorcestershire_69.html
and they have released there fares too
http://www.diamondbuses.com/tickets.html
I had seen the diamond information on there site , the links I posted for first there site did not have that information on at lunchtime late as usual
All of firsts buses have been sent to the depots and some have started to loose some of there branding as well like the First (f) on the front and back in some cases. As for Diamond I wouldnt know but sunday is a quiet day for both garages anyway, less so for Redditch. Saturday night will be busy in Plymouth Road and or Sunday Morning with a load of Enviro 300s moving to Worcester on mass or in groups.
I used them last week or so and the red diamond adult day was £1.80 then so no change but am I being thick what is the difference between red day town and red day extra?? Could be just me as I've been staring at exam papers all day but...?
Quote from: bowler on February 25, 2013, 07:39:02 PM
Quote from: tank90 on February 25, 2013, 07:27:25 PM
Quote from: bowler on February 25, 2013, 07:23:50 PM
check this link first have finally put something on there website
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/worcestershire_herefordshire/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=9581&conf=0
as have diamond.
http://www.diamondbuses.com/news/DiamondareexpandinginWorcestershire_69.html
and they have released there fares too
http://www.diamondbuses.com/tickets.html
I had seen the diamond information on there site , the links I posted for first there site did not have that information on at lunchtime late as usual
First are never early with anything are they?
They will even be late as usual on Saturday as well, they were late as MRW and FMR they may have to change now lol
Peter if you look at the map it sort of explains it self. the Extra covers Tardebigge up to Bordsley (Bromsgrove) and Studley while the £1.80 covers every service in Redditch and the £1.50 will cover 51 55 56 57 58
Quote from: tank90 on February 25, 2013, 07:47:59 PM
Quote from: bowler on February 25, 2013, 07:39:02 PM
Quote from: tank90 on February 25, 2013, 07:27:25 PM
Quote from: bowler on February 25, 2013, 07:23:50 PM
check this link first have finally put something on there website
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/worcestershire_herefordshire/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=9581&conf=0
as have diamond.
http://www.diamondbuses.com/news/DiamondareexpandinginWorcestershire_69.html
and they have released there fares too
http://www.diamondbuses.com/tickets.html
I had seen the diamond information on there site , the links I posted for first there site did not have that information on at lunchtime late as usual
First are never early with anything are they?
They will even be late as usual on Saturday as well, they were late as MRW and FMR they may have to change now lol
Peter if you look at the map it sort of explains it self. the Extra covers Tardebigge up to Bordsley (Bromsgrove) and Studley while the £1.80 covers every service in Redditch and the £1.50 will cover 51 55 56 57 58
Oops, didnt look at the map-my bad
Quote from: Peter123 on February 25, 2013, 07:49:23 PM
Quote from: tank90 on February 25, 2013, 07:47:59 PM
Quote from: bowler on February 25, 2013, 07:39:02 PM
Quote from: tank90 on February 25, 2013, 07:27:25 PM
Quote from: bowler on February 25, 2013, 07:23:50 PM
check this link first have finally put something on there website
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/worcestershire_herefordshire/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=9581&conf=0
as have diamond.
http://www.diamondbuses.com/news/DiamondareexpandinginWorcestershire_69.html
and they have released there fares too
http://www.diamondbuses.com/tickets.html
I had seen the diamond information on there site , the links I posted for first there site did not have that information on at lunchtime late as usual
First are never early with anything are they?
They will even be late as usual on Saturday as well, they were late as MRW and FMR they may have to change now lol
Peter if you look at the map it sort of explains it self. the Extra covers Tardebigge up to Bordsley (Bromsgrove) and Studley while the £1.80 covers every service in Redditch and the £1.50 will cover 51 55 56 57 58
Oops, didnt look at the map-my bad
Yeah its easy to miss as the font is so tiny and a tad chocolate teapot like.
Quote from: tank90 on February 25, 2013, 07:43:36 PM
All of firsts buses have been sent to the depots and some have started to loose some of there branding as well like the First (f) on the front and back in some cases. As for Diamond I wouldnt know but sunday is a quiet day for both garages anyway, less so for Redditch. Saturday night will be busy in Plymouth Road and or Sunday Morning with a load of Enviro 300s moving to Worcester on mass or in groups.
Kidderminster closed on sundays
Quote from: Peter123 on February 25, 2013, 07:49:23 PM
Quote from: tank90 on February 25, 2013, 07:47:59 PM
Quote from: bowler on February 25, 2013, 07:39:02 PM
Quote from: tank90 on February 25, 2013, 07:27:25 PM
Quote from: bowler on February 25, 2013, 07:23:50 PM
check this link first have finally put something on there website
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/worcestershire_herefordshire/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=9581&conf=0
as have diamond.
http://www.diamondbuses.com/news/DiamondareexpandinginWorcestershire_69.html
and they have released there fares too
http://www.diamondbuses.com/tickets.html
I had seen the diamond information on there site , the links I posted for first there site did not have that information on at lunchtime late as usual
First are never early with anything are they?
They will even be late as usual on Saturday as well, they were late as MRW and FMR they may have to change now lol
Peter if you look at the map it sort of explains it self. the Extra covers Tardebigge up to Bordsley (Bromsgrove) and Studley while the £1.80 covers every service in Redditch and the £1.50 will cover 51 55 56 57 58
Oops, didnt look at the map-my bad
All these low fares make black/blue diamond look expensive but there again they have longer journeys and some of black diamond's fares are very reasonable such as Walsall to Hayley Green (Halesowen) or Merry Hill for £2.50 Return even if the 4M takes you around an hour and 20 minutes one way.
Quote from: Ash on February 25, 2013, 07:52:16 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on February 25, 2013, 07:49:23 PM
Quote from: tank90 on February 25, 2013, 07:47:59 PM
Quote from: bowler on February 25, 2013, 07:39:02 PM
Quote from: tank90 on February 25, 2013, 07:27:25 PM
Quote from: bowler on February 25, 2013, 07:23:50 PM
check this link first have finally put something on there website
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/worcestershire_herefordshire/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=9581&conf=0
as have diamond.
http://www.diamondbuses.com/news/DiamondareexpandinginWorcestershire_69.html
and they have released there fares too
http://www.diamondbuses.com/tickets.html
I had seen the diamond information on there site , the links I posted for first there site did not have that information on at lunchtime late as usual
First are never early with anything are they?
They will even be late as usual on Saturday as well, they were late as MRW and FMR they may have to change now lol
Peter if you look at the map it sort of explains it self. the Extra covers Tardebigge up to Bordsley (Bromsgrove) and Studley while the £1.80 covers every service in Redditch and the £1.50 will cover 51 55 56 57 58
Oops, didnt look at the map-my bad
All these low fares make black/blue diamond look expensive but there again they have longer journeys and some of black diamond's fares are very reasonable such as Walsall to Hayley Green (Halesowen) or Merry Hill for £2.50 Return even if the 4M takes you around an hour and 20 minutes one way.
They do sort of defy the myth that bus fares outside of birmingham are expensive although diamond's cross border pass which covers everywhere is quite expensive.
Quote from: bowler on February 25, 2013, 07:52:01 PM
Quote from: tank90 on February 25, 2013, 07:43:36 PM
All of firsts buses have been sent to the depots and some have started to loose some of there branding as well like the First (f) on the front and back in some cases. As for Diamond I wouldnt know but sunday is a quiet day for both garages anyway, less so for Redditch. Saturday night will be busy in Plymouth Road and or Sunday Morning with a load of Enviro 300s moving to Worcester on mass or in groups.
Kidderminster closed on sundays
Yeah, the tumble weed is active tho on Sundays lol
Quote from: Peter123 on February 25, 2013, 07:53:49 PM
Quote from: Ash on February 25, 2013, 07:52:16 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on February 25, 2013, 07:49:23 PM
Quote from: tank90 on February 25, 2013, 07:47:59 PM
Quote from: bowler on February 25, 2013, 07:39:02 PM
Quote from: tank90 on February 25, 2013, 07:27:25 PM
Quote from: bowler on February 25, 2013, 07:23:50 PM
check this link first have finally put something on there website
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/worcestershire_herefordshire/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=9581&conf=0
as have diamond.
http://www.diamondbuses.com/news/DiamondareexpandinginWorcestershire_69.html
and they have released there fares too
http://www.diamondbuses.com/tickets.html
I had seen the diamond information on there site , the links I posted for first there site did not have that information on at lunchtime late as usual
First are never early with anything are they?
They will even be late as usual on Saturday as well, they were late as MRW and FMR they may have to change now lol
Peter if you look at the map it sort of explains it self. the Extra covers Tardebigge up to Bordsley (Bromsgrove) and Studley while the £1.80 covers every service in Redditch and the £1.50 will cover 51 55 56 57 58
Oops, didnt look at the map-my bad
All these low fares make black/blue diamond look expensive but there again they have longer journeys and some of black diamond's fares are very reasonable such as Walsall to Hayley Green (Halesowen) or Merry Hill for £2.50 Return even if the 4M takes you around an hour and 20 minutes one way.
They do sort of defy the myth that bus fares outside of birmingham are expensive although diamond's cross border pass which covers everywhere is quite expensive.
I would agree with that its a 40p increase to get to Kidder and Bromsgrove from Redditch and Kidder to Bromsgrove and Redditch.
It will be interesting to see if the 202 remains at Tividale or whether it will get transferred to the Redditch depot although then the service would lose it's royale centro's.
Quote from: Ash on February 25, 2013, 07:59:11 PM
It will be interesting to see if the 202 remains at Tividale or whether it will get transferred to the Redditch depot although then the service would lose it's royale centro's.
sounds harsh but would that be a problem as then the 4 could get them
Had an update on the changes
42641, the last new 'real' Midland Red West vehicle is now not to transfer, but will be used for spares at Worcester, 42401 will replace it at Redditch
11 Enviro 300s are to transfer to Worcester to replace their last MRW Lance; 4 'ODZ' Lances and 6 'R' reg dats. 1 Enviro is to transfer to Hereford to replace 42401. The other 4 Enviro 300s are to be temporarily stored at Hereford
Quote from: tank90 on February 25, 2013, 08:03:13 PM
Quote from: Ash on February 25, 2013, 07:59:11 PM
It will be interesting to see if the 202 remains at Tividale or whether it will get transferred to the Redditch depot although then the service would lose it's royale centro's.
sounds harsh but would that be a problem as then the 4 could get them
I doubt the 4 would get the centro's they would mostly likely go on the 301 as the service normally see's 1 or 2 centro's daily depending if there all available for service. Even though I would like to see them on the 4/4H/4M more often than just Sunday's.
Quote from: Tony on February 25, 2013, 08:05:47 PM
Had an update on the changes
42641, the last new 'real' Midland Red West vehicle is now not to transfer, but will be used for spares at Worcester, 42401 will replace it at Redditch
11 Enviro 300s are to transfer to Worcester to replace their last MRW Lance; 4 'ODZ' Lances and 6 'R' reg dats. 1 Enviro is to transfer to Hereford to replace 42401. The other 4 Enviro 300s are to be temporarily stored at Hereford
So Rotala have paid £1.5m for two bus depots and a fleet of knackered old vehicles? I wonder now why NXWM weren't interested... ;D
£1.5 million for 35 buses in areas where rotala already operate/near where they operate where buses are busy is a good deal and per bus it works out as good value compared to what stagecoach offered/nearly had north devon for. It's a good price and rotala should do well out of it provided they do not allocate too many mpds and solos to what are busy routes and need full sized single deckers.
The Enviros are set to leave Redditch on saturday night, being collected by staff from Hereford and Worcester, the 4 stored at Hereford will be phased into service by May. No doubt 67644, 67645 or 67646 will cover the late night services in Redditch on saturday night.
Quote from: Peter123 on February 25, 2013, 08:48:32 PM
£1.5 million for 35 buses in areas where rotala already operate/near where they operate where buses are busy is a good deal and per bus it works out as good value compared to what stagecoach offered/nearly had north devon for. It's a good price and rotala should do well out of it provided they do not allocate too many mpds and solos to what are busy routes and need full sized single deckers.
The Redditch acquisition by Rotala could still yet be referred to the Oft. Some of the other deals have been referred after the sale completion has gone through
Quote from: Stu on February 25, 2013, 08:41:04 PM
Quote from: Tony on February 25, 2013, 08:05:47 PM
Had an update on the changes
42641, the last new 'real' Midland Red West vehicle is now not to transfer, but will be used for spares at Worcester, 42401 will replace it at Redditch
11 Enviro 300s are to transfer to Worcester to replace their last MRW Lance; 4 'ODZ' Lances and 6 'R' reg dats. 1 Enviro is to transfer to Hereford to replace 42401. The other 4 Enviro 300s are to be temporarily stored at Hereford
So Rotala have paid £1.5m for two bus depots and a fleet of knackered old vehicles? I wonder now why NXWM weren't interested... ;D
The old vehicles wouldn't have been an issue for NX, they could have pulled some out of the reserve fleet initially & upgraded the fleet as the 130 new buses arrive & allow for cascades
Quote from: Winston on February 25, 2013, 08:56:30 PM
Quote from: Stu on February 25, 2013, 08:41:04 PM
Quote from: Tony on February 25, 2013, 08:05:47 PM
Had an update on the changes
42641, the last new 'real' Midland Red West vehicle is now not to transfer, but will be used for spares at Worcester, 42401 will replace it at Redditch
11 Enviro 300s are to transfer to Worcester to replace their last MRW Lance; 4 'ODZ' Lances and 6 'R' reg dats. 1 Enviro is to transfer to Hereford to replace 42401. The other 4 Enviro 300s are to be temporarily stored at Hereford
So Rotala have paid £1.5m for two bus depots and a fleet of knackered old vehicles? I wonder now why NXWM weren't interested... ;D
The old vehicles wouldn't have been an issue from NX, they could have pulled some out of the reserve fleet initially & upgraded the fleet as the 130 new buses arrive & allow for cascades
I would think Rotala might do the same and bring in their own vehicles cascaded from other parts of the business including the ones painted in all over blue being used currently by black diamond.
Quote from: Peter123 on February 25, 2013, 08:48:32 PM
£1.5 million for 35 buses in areas where rotala already operate/near where they operate where buses are busy is a good deal and per bus it works out as good value compared to what stagecoach offered/nearly had north devon for. It's a good price and rotala should do well out of it provided they do not allocate too many mpds and solos to what are busy routes and need full sized single deckers.
There looks likely to be 5 Solos and a total of 12 MPDs allocated to RH/KR when the fleets are combined. I would think a couple of routes will be suited to these so it will be interesting where they turn up
What is going to happen the the nifty fifty centro's that have been repainted blue, has this just happened due to blue being the colour for the new livery or are they on the move to Redditch/Kidderminster.
Quote from: Tony on February 25, 2013, 09:03:00 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on February 25, 2013, 08:48:32 PM
£1.5 million for 35 buses in areas where rotala already operate/near where they operate where buses are busy is a good deal and per bus it works out as good value compared to what stagecoach offered/nearly had north devon for. It's a good price and rotala should do well out of it provided they do not allocate too many mpds and solos to what are busy routes and need full sized single deckers.
There looks likely to be 5 Solos and a total of 12 MPDs allocated to RH/KR when the fleets are combined. I would think a couple of routes will be suited to these so it will be interesting where they turn up
I would imagine these will end up on routes like the 51 and 64 or something like that-the 143 needs deckers, the X3 needs larger single decks along with the 57 and 58 thats for certain
Quote from: Ash on February 25, 2013, 09:07:40 PM
What is going to happen the the nifty fifty centro's that have been repainted blue, has this just happened due to blue being the colour for the new livery or are they on the move to Redditch/Kidderminster.
They are transferring to RH/KR whether the 50 is as well I don't know
Quote from: Tony on February 25, 2013, 09:23:09 PM
Quote from: Ash on February 25, 2013, 09:07:40 PM
What is going to happen the the nifty fifty centro's that have been repainted blue, has this just happened due to blue being the colour for the new livery or are they on the move to Redditch/Kidderminster.
They are transferring to RH/KR whether the 50 is as well I don't know
Ok thank you for the info Tony, If the 50 moves out of Long Acre that's another service lost from there and if this is the case wouldn't surprise me if the 16 doesn't return back to Tividale in the near future with the hybrid versa's as there still in black diamond livery.
143 only needs deckers because singles are banned from it, singles cant get round morrison's in Bromsgrove due to there size, Those shorter MAN/Centros should do fine on there!
KX08HMY is stored in the First Group depot with 861
Quote from: jc on February 25, 2013, 10:19:37 PM
143 only needs deckers because singles are banned from it, singles cant get round morrison's in Bromsgrove due to there size, Those shorter MAN/Centros should do fine on there!
KX08HMY is stored in the First Group depot with 861
I would imagine both are there for 'type training' ready for Sunday. Those are the only two types of vehicles that First drivers will not be a used to driving, unless a couple have arrived since Redditch last had Solos
Quote from: Tony on February 25, 2013, 10:24:14 PM
Quote from: jc on February 25, 2013, 10:19:37 PM
143 only needs deckers because singles are banned from it, singles cant get round morrison's in Bromsgrove due to there size, Those shorter MAN/Centros should do fine on there!
KX08HMY is stored in the First Group depot with 861
I would imagine both are there for 'type training' ready for Sunday. Those are the only two types of vehicles that First drivers will not be a used to driving, unless a couple have arrived since Redditch last had Solos
Diamond staff have also been down at Plymouth Road to type train on Lance Enviro 300 President Volvo Olympian so that they can driver them too.
Quote from: Tony on February 25, 2013, 08:05:47 PM
Had an update on the changes
42641, the last new 'real' Midland Red West vehicle is now not to transfer, but will be used for spares at Worcester, 42401 will replace it at Redditch
11 Enviro 300s are to transfer to Worcester to replace their last MRW Lance; 4 'ODZ' Lances and 6 'R' reg dats. 1 Enviro is to transfer to Hereford to replace 42401. The other 4 Enviro 300s are to be temporarily stored at Hereford
tony 42641 is a Kidderminster bus not a Redditch one so wonder if 42401 will come to Kidderminster to join the rest of the batch , I was on 42220 to day and ticket machine was broke driver issuing by hand wonder if fist will bother fixing it
Western Greyhound has found a buyer - Go-Ahead group
from Route 1
Go-Ahead-owned Plymouth Citybus has acquired Western Greyhound bus services in the Liskeard area.
It follows Western Greyhound being offered for sale, after a period of poor operation and financial pressures (routeone, News, 19 November).
Says Western Greyhound MD and co-owner Mark Howarth: "The company continues in discussions with interested parties for the rest of the business and an announcement will be made in due course."
Go-Ahead took over on Monday (8 December) in south-east Cornwall, safeguarding 31 bus driving jobs in the area, and continuing to run the Western Greyhound timetables currently in place.
This includes routes 572 (Looe-Plymouth), 573 (Looe-Liskeard), 574 (Liskeard Callington) and 576 (Plymouth-Callington-Launceston-Bude).
It will also run the section of route 593 between Plymouth and Liskeard, with Western Greyhound running the 593 between Newquay and Liskeard. Through tickets will continue to be available.
Plymouth Citybus intends to take over the lease of the depot off Culverwood Road in Liskeard, along with nine low-floor buses that will be branded under the new name of 'Go Cornwall Bus'.
Plymouth Citybus runs 180 buses in Plymouth, which is 20 miles away from Liskeard.
Plymouth Citybus MD Richard Stevens says: "We are delighted to be able to come to an agreement with Western Greyhound to take over these routes and not only safeguard 31 local jobs, but secure vital bus services in south-east Cornwall.
"We have a wealth of experience of running buses in the area and have this year started providing services to The Rame peninsular and into Liskeard, complementing our service between Callington and Tavistock."
Mr Howarth says: "We believe that the deal for the Liskeard area represents good value for our employees and users.
"We started operations in south-east Cornwall in August 2004, stepping in when DAC closed down their operations there, and stepped in again when local bus operator Phil Hambley of Pelynt retired.
"Frequencies were steadily increased with through services between Newquay and Plymouth, and more recently increasing the peak Liskeard-Plymouth frequency to half-hourly. "A network based on connections at Liskeard was developed together with integrated ticketing with First Great Western trains on the Looe Valley corridor. I am delighted that Plymouth Citybus will be able to take this network to the next phase of its development."
I wonder if go-ahead were put off buying the rest of the business by the danger of attracting the attention of the competition clowns, whatever they call themselves this week?
Apparently the rest of Western Greyhound has been sold
http://www.westbriton.co.uk/Jobs-saved-entrepreneur-strikes-deal-Western/story-25542863-detail/story.html
Further background on buyers of Western Greyhound
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=WiibVMqsBMWy7QbcvoCYDg&url=http://www.cornishguardian.co.uk/Troubled-bus-firm-sells-rest-business/story-25717980-detail/story.html&ved=0CB0QFjAA&usg=AFQjCNEwlKXQG7RmKcDT_1AOX1aLip5ucw&sig2=OuXcSS7_BlzNLqSxFs44iA
Quote from: JoNi on December 24, 2014, 08:58:11 PM
Further background on buyers of Western Greyhound
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=WiibVMqsBMWy7QbcvoCYDg&url=http://www.cornishguardian.co.uk/Troubled-bus-firm-sells-rest-business/story-25717980-detail/story.html&ved=0CB0QFjAA&usg=AFQjCNEwlKXQG7RmKcDT_1AOX1aLip5ucw&sig2=OuXcSS7_BlzNLqSxFs44iA
Reading the article, it looks like Western Greyhound could have an interesting and expect anything future!
I'm not even sure that is the full story - I seem to recall that when Countryliner collapsed they attempted to set up a new company to carry on but were scuppered by the refusal of the counties concerned to transfer their tenders.
The Velvet, Eastleigh business has now been closed down, routes passing to Xelabus yesterday.
;
Even more strangely the three routes concerned were shown in N&P as registered by Western Greyhound, whose nearest OC is at Liskeard, from the same date, along with numerous cancellations in Devon and Cornwall from mid-February , while vosa still shows Mark Howarth and two others as directors of Western Greyhound.