For Sale

[tank90]

The US and Canada is making money its over here thats not  :-\

[winston]

The US and Canada is making money its over here thats not  :-\

Greyhound is doing pretty well, but First Student isn't making anywhere near the profit it used to, I was only suggesting selling off the odd 1000 vehicle operation, it would soon top up the £100 Million target

[tank90]

North America First student is making money to as the schools contract First to run there buses. Also in North America First is not just a bus and coach operator it also is a Servicing company abit like V.I.P and the Old Hardings are/was.
The UK first student isnt doing as well i dont think but who would buy it Green Bus??

As for Hull Trains I cant see First walking away from that just yet.

[winston]

North America First student is making money to as the schools contract First to run there buses. Also in North America First is not just a bus and coach operator it also is a Servicing company abit like V.I.P and the Old Hardings are/was.
The UK first student isnt doing as well i dont think but who would buy it Green Bus??

As for Hull Trains I cant see First walking away from that just yet.

Tnak90,

It didn't say First Student/Transit in North America wasn't making money, but it isn't making anywhere near the profits/margins it once did since its first full year contribution under First Group ownership:

                                                                             2012                             2011                                2010                                2009
First Student -                        Turnover =             £1,567.2 Million              £1594.4 Million                  £2337.3 Million                £2224.1 Million
                                               Operating Profit =  £107.2 Million                 £128.3 Million                    £233.9 Million                  £246.1 Million
First Transit/First Services -    Turnover =             £778.6 Million                 £771.5 Million                    Inc above                        Inc above
                                               Operating Profit =  £55.8 Million                   £57.2 Million                      Inc above                        Inc above
Greyhound                              Turnover =             £657.2 Million                 £634.6 Million                   £603.3 Million                   £642.4 Million
                                                Operating Profit = £50.6 Million                   £40.2 Million                     £23.9 Million                     £48.5 Million

If you compare the combined First Student/First Transit Turnover & Operating Profits between 2009 & the most recent annual accounts published for 2012

                              2012                          2009
Turnover                £2345.8 Million          £2224.1 Million
Operating Profit     £163 Million               £246.1 Million
Profit Margin           6.9%                         10.6%

Basically as I said, since First Students/First Transits first full year of contributions back in 2009 to the latest annual report, profit margins in North America have fallen by 3.7% representing a fall of £83 Million profit. Any small percentage improvement in the North American business will have a far greater impact on Group profits than worrying about selling off tiny operations at Redditch, Kiddiminster & even parting with the whole of Wyvern for that matter. Some of the fall in profits can be contributed to the US economy/Eurozone crisis, but a lot of it will be down to the management of the division by First, which is the same for UK bus under performance. Only Greyhound's performance has improved over that period under First ownership, however that also headed south during 2010/2011 but has since recovered to higher levels than when First acquired it off Laidlaw

[sconehead85]

Banks won't touch buses?? http://thebuspeople.co.uk/?p=1358

There are exceptions to every rule, but the bits First are selling off are not profitable. This Nottingham example is not a management buy out or a 1990s style Employee Share Ownership Plan, which the banks wont touch.  If you have to borrow to buy out a poor. performing bus operator the manager will show you the door.   First wants full whack, and so do the banks.

Speaking of FIRST GREYHOUND, the correct term may be "put to sleep".

sconehead85

[tank90]

But the reason for lower margins is they have invested in new equipment and vechicals so profits would be down.

North America First student is making money to as the schools contract First to run there buses. Also in North America First is not just a bus and coach operator it also is a Servicing company abit like V.I.P and the Old Hardings are/was.
The UK first student isnt doing as well i dont think but who would buy it Green Bus??

As for Hull Trains I cant see First walking away from that just yet.

Tnak90,

It didn't say First Student/Transit in North America wasn't making money, but it isn't making anywhere near the profits/margins it once did since its first full year contribution under First Group ownership:

                                                                             2012                             2011                                2010                                2009
First Student -                        Turnover =             £1,567.2 Million              £1594.4 Million                  £2337.3 Million                £2224.1 Million
                                               Operating Profit =  £107.2 Million                 £128.3 Million                    £233.9 Million                  £246.1 Million
First Transit/First Services -    Turnover =             £778.6 Million                 £771.5 Million                    Inc above                        Inc above
                                               Operating Profit =  £55.8 Million                   £57.2 Million                      Inc above                        Inc above
Greyhound                              Turnover =             £657.2 Million                 £634.6 Million                   £603.3 Million                   £642.4 Million
                                                Operating Profit = £50.6 Million                   £40.2 Million                     £23.9 Million                     £48.5 Million

If you compare the combined First Student/First Transit Turnover & Operating Profits between 2009 & the most recent annual accounts published for 2012

                              2012                          2009
Turnover                £2345.8 Million          £2224.1 Million
Operating Profit     £163 Million               £246.1 Million
Profit Margin           6.9%                         10.6%

Basically as I said, since First Students/First Transits first full year of contributions back in 2009 to the latest annual report, profit margins in North America have fallen by 3.7% representing a fall of £83 Million profit. Any small percentage improvement in the North American business will have a far greater impact on Group profits than worrying about selling off tiny operations at Redditch, Kiddiminster & even parting with the whole of Wyvern for that matter. Some of the fall in profits can be contributed to the US economy/Eurozone crisis, but a lot of it will be down to the management of the division by First, which is the same for UK bus under performance. Only Greyhound's performance has improved over that period under First ownership, however that also headed south during 2010/2011 but has since recovered to higher levels than when First acquired it off Laidlaw

I wasn't saying you were wrong just that they have made investments but I too didn't explain myself either. I'm also sure at somepoint ( I maybe wrong here but hey ho) First said they were only looking at the UK not North America as they have made investments there and have had new contracts which has ment they have had to buy new equipment to carry out said contracts.

But as i said I could be wrong.

[winston]

But the reason for lower margins is they have invested in new equipment and vechicals so profits would be down.

I wasn't saying you were wrong just that they have made investments but I too didn't explain myself either. I'm also sure at somepoint ( I maybe wrong here but hey ho) First said they were only looking at the UK not North America as they have made investments there and have had new contracts which has ment they have had to buy new equipment to carry out said contracts.

But as i said I could be wrong.

Investment in new vehicles / equipment is booked down as capital expenditure, which doesn't affect the initial operating profit/profit margin

As an example, look at First Groups UK bus division, profits have been falling for the past couple of years, during 2009-2011 period very little was invested in fleet replacements other than for Tfl contract wins, quality partnerships, park & ride contracts etc basically where First had no choice but to buy new. What First didn't spend on new vehicles had no bearing on the division's profits/percentage profit margins; the funds which would normally have been used for capital expenditure were being used to pay down group debt

I agree no mention has been made of selling off bits of the North American First Student/Transit businesses only from UK bus at present to raise the £100 Million, I was merely pointing out that a relatively small disposal i.e. few thousand vehicles from First Student/Transit would virtually go unnoticed due to the size of the fleet/area the operation covers, yet it would go a long way towards raising the quoted £100 Million, which the likes of selling Kiddi, Redditch & Northampton are never going to put a serious dent in......

[andyr]

Only the Greyhound shuttle between Cardiff and Swansea remains. The south coast services and the Scottish overnight services have all been withdrawn. Scania pbs withdrawn from nx services were never going to be a good starting point even with a refurb ?

[tank90]

I think there maybe some news about the sales but not sure when. There WILL be suprise but it could be a double edged sword, keep a keen eye on things.

[winston]

I think there maybe some news about the sales but not sure when. There WILL be suprise but it could be a double edged sword, keep a keen eye on things.

I don't think that there will be anymore sales this side of Xmas at least, based on the slow progress made in UK bus disposals to date, one stockbroker is now forecasting that First Group will now raise a further £50 million in disposals during 2013, followed by a further £25 million during 2014. I think the next 6-12 months are critical in the UK bus division for underperforming subsidiary's to turn their performances around, however, if investment is limited in those businesses it may well be an uphill battle......

[TinnedPeaches]

Still no news, it seems. I'm very interested to see if anything happens in the next few weeks or into the new year. Though at the same time, I hope I'm not building myself up for a disappointment and that, after all the wondering and guessing, nothing happens.

[jc]

Nothing is going to happen by the sounds of it ...

Wyvern is looking to go Low Floor soonish, Kidderminster is to shut down with work moved to Redditch or Worcester ...

Not sure about other places, Northampton is still hanging on by its teeth.

[Discodave]

I feel sorry for any first employee in one of the for sale areas look at barnstaple a buyer is found jobs were possibly being saved then OFT stuck there nose in sale fell through jobs lost

[Bruce_LOA400X]

there will be some transfers from Leicester to Northampton in the new year, leicester will have some incoming single deckers from Potteries, sound to me like they are tarting both up a weeny bit making a package out the two and flogging them.

[winston]

there will be some transfers from Leicester to Northampton in the new year, leicester will have some incoming single deckers from Potteries, sound to me like they are tarting both up a weeny bit making a package out the two and flogging them.

Leicester should fetch a decent if it was up for sale, with Northampton tagged on to Leicester First would at least get something for the operation instead of having pay the associated costs of closing it down