For Sale

[winston]

I did suggest a swop for one of  the Midland companies.  One thing to bear in mind is that Stagecoach may be thwarted in any bid to purchase any further pieces of First.  Also smaller companies are unlikely to buy pieces of First due to the number of them going belly-up.

South Wales will remain with First as they have had to take on Veolias work and there isnt an obvious alternative unless Arriva , Centrebus and Go-Ahead want to move into new areas. 

Centrebus could buy Northampton, but Plymouth could be difficult to sell because Go-Ahead/Stagecoach would be barred.  I think because of the OFT First will have a hard job disposing of any operation.  The logical companies would create a monopoly and the small timers are too weak to take on big company assets.  One only has to look at the amount Go-Ahead hoovered up in East Anglia in 2012!

I think there is NO CHANCE of First finding £82 million of assets to sell by Easter unless the Scottish Government nationalises First's Scottish operations!  Not a bad idea, but the free market zealots would have a fit!

sconehead85

There's a post on the GM buses Yahoo group that suggests Stagecoach have now offered First Group £36.2 million to buy their Bolton & Bury operations as well, I'd bus surprised if they accepted as they may as well dispose of the rest of Manchester if they sell off those two garages. But it does go to show that they could easily raise the £82 million shortfall by sacrificing one decent operation. Personally I think they should retain all the large former PTE operations and sell of some of the smaller operations Potteries, Leicester, Wyvern, Berkshire etc

There's also suggestions on another Forum that First may now been prepared to sell their entire London bus operation to meet the disposal targets, I'd personally like to see NX Group re-enter the London bus market on scale, a deal like that could add another 885 buses to its UK bus business

I would also like NatEx to reenter London as long as this doesnt divert resources away from the west midlands like last time

Yes I agree, investment levels in new buses would need to be maintained in both the West Midlands & Dundee, it would give them the option of having midlife buses available to cascade as well to help remove the remaining early low floor single deckers.

Bowker should never have sold the original Travel London business to Abellio in the first place, the London bus fleet excluding surrey now accounts for 502 vehicles and I understand most garages are at or near full capacity with new tender wins / retained tenders

[Ash]

It looks as if blue is to become the main colour.

I just thought it would be much simpler to have:

Black diamond - Black country
Blue diamond - Birmingham and Coventry
Red diamond - Redditch and Kidderminster

I still just don't get the reasoning of all blue buses with diamond fleet names it just creates confusion.
.

All blue creates confusion? - no all blue makes things simple

It would make things simpler if every bus of diamond was blue but not when you get blue/red/black and red and white diamond all on one route that's what i meant sorry if i confused people but that's similar to how passengers feel when this happens like it does on the 4/4H and 4M service and colour bus goes theory.

[PM]

I did suggest a swop for one of  the Midland companies.  One thing to bear in mind is that Stagecoach may be thwarted in any bid to purchase any further pieces of First.  Also smaller companies are unlikely to buy pieces of First due to the number of them going belly-up.

South Wales will remain with First as they have had to take on Veolias work and there isnt an obvious alternative unless Arriva , Centrebus and Go-Ahead want to move into new areas. 

Centrebus could buy Northampton, but Plymouth could be difficult to sell because Go-Ahead/Stagecoach would be barred.  I think because of the OFT First will have a hard job disposing of any operation.  The logical companies would create a monopoly and the small timers are too weak to take on big company assets.  One only has to look at the amount Go-Ahead hoovered up in East Anglia in 2012!

I think there is NO CHANCE of First finding £82 million of assets to sell by Easter unless the Scottish Government nationalises First's Scottish operations!  Not a bad idea, but the free market zealots would have a fit!

sconehead85

There's a post on the GM buses Yahoo group that suggests Stagecoach have now offered First Group £36.2 million to buy their Bolton & Bury operations as well, I'd bus surprised if they accepted as they may as well dispose of the rest of Manchester if they sell off those two garages. But it does go to show that they could easily raise the £82 million shortfall by sacrificing one decent operation. Personally I think they should retain all the large former PTE operations and sell of some of the smaller operations Potteries, Leicester, Wyvern, Berkshire etc

There's also suggestions on another Forum that First may now been prepared to sell their entire London bus operation to meet the disposal targets, I'd personally like to see NX Group re-enter the London bus market on scale, a deal like that could add another 885 buses to its UK bus business

I would also like NatEx to reenter London as long as this doesnt divert resources away from the west midlands like last time

Yes I agree, investment levels in new buses would need to be maintained in both the West Midlands & Dundee, it would give them the option of having midlife buses available to cascade as well to help remove the remaining early low floor single deckers.

Bowker should never have sold the original Travel London business to Abellio in the first place, the London bus fleet excluding surrey now accounts for 502 vehicles and I understand most garages are at or near full capacity with new tender wins / retained tenders

Im sure NX have the money and the clout to do well in London this time tho having a London operation is dangerous as last time resources were diverted away and First boast of all this investment-London soaked most of it up!!, wrecking their other operations

[winston]

I did suggest a swop for one of  the Midland companies.  One thing to bear in mind is that Stagecoach may be thwarted in any bid to purchase any further pieces of First.  Also smaller companies are unlikely to buy pieces of First due to the number of them going belly-up.

South Wales will remain with First as they have had to take on Veolias work and there isnt an obvious alternative unless Arriva , Centrebus and Go-Ahead want to move into new areas. 

Centrebus could buy Northampton, but Plymouth could be difficult to sell because Go-Ahead/Stagecoach would be barred.  I think because of the OFT First will have a hard job disposing of any operation.  The logical companies would create a monopoly and the small timers are too weak to take on big company assets.  One only has to look at the amount Go-Ahead hoovered up in East Anglia in 2012!

I think there is NO CHANCE of First finding £82 million of assets to sell by Easter unless the Scottish Government nationalises First's Scottish operations!  Not a bad idea, but the free market zealots would have a fit!

sconehead85

There's a post on the GM buses Yahoo group that suggests Stagecoach have now offered First Group £36.2 million to buy their Bolton & Bury operations as well, I'd bus surprised if they accepted as they may as well dispose of the rest of Manchester if they sell off those two garages. But it does go to show that they could easily raise the £82 million shortfall by sacrificing one decent operation. Personally I think they should retain all the large former PTE operations and sell of some of the smaller operations Potteries, Leicester, Wyvern, Berkshire etc

There's also suggestions on another Forum that First may now been prepared to sell their entire London bus operation to meet the disposal targets, I'd personally like to see NX Group re-enter the London bus market on scale, a deal like that could add another 885 buses to its UK bus business

I would also like NatEx to reenter London as long as this doesnt divert resources away from the west midlands like last time

Yes I agree, investment levels in new buses would need to be maintained in both the West Midlands & Dundee, it would give them the option of having midlife buses available to cascade as well to help remove the remaining early low floor single deckers.

Bowker should never have sold the original Travel London business to Abellio in the first place, the London bus fleet excluding surrey now accounts for 502 vehicles and I understand most garages are at or near full capacity with new tender wins / retained tenders

Im sure NX have the money and the clout to do well in London this time tho having a London operation is dangerous as last time resources were diverted away and First boast of all this investment-London soaked most of it up!!, wrecking their other operations

NX have funds available to make acquisitions once again, now would be the optimum time to acquire First's London bus business as First have invested heavily in new vehicles for new / renewed tenders and have a very modern fleet. I understand that there are very few of First's current routes up for re-tender / any new routes available that First could bid for in the next 12 - 18 months. Therefore fleet investment should be minimal until the next round of tenders in First operating areas

[Solo1]

I take it the 2 blue diamond buses at Tividale
Going to redditch as well

[Discodave]

I did suggest a swop for one of  the Midland companies.  One thing to bear in mind is that Stagecoach may be thwarted in any bid to purchase any further pieces of First.  Also smaller companies are unlikely to buy pieces of First due to the number of them going belly-up.

South Wales will remain with First as they have had to take on Veolias work and there isnt an obvious alternative unless Arriva , Centrebus and Go-Ahead want to move into new areas. 

Centrebus could buy Northampton, but Plymouth could be difficult to sell because Go-Ahead/Stagecoach would be barred.  I think because of the OFT First will have a hard job disposing of any operation.  The logical companies would create a monopoly and the small timers are too weak to take on big company assets.  One only has to look at the amount Go-Ahead hoovered up in East Anglia in 2012!

I think there is NO CHANCE of First finding £82 million of assets to sell by Easter unless the Scottish Government nationalises First's Scottish operations!  Not a bad idea, but the free market zealots would have a fit!

sconehead85

There's a post on the GM buses Yahoo group that suggests Stagecoach have now offered First Group £36.2 million to buy their Bolton & Bury operations as well, I'd bus surprised if they accepted as they may as well dispose of the rest of Manchester if they sell off those two garages. But it does go to show that they could easily raise the £82 million shortfall by sacrificing one decent operation. Personally I think they should retain all the large former PTE operations and sell of some of the smaller operations Potteries, Leicester, Wyvern, Berkshire etc

There's also suggestions on another Forum that First may now been prepared to sell their entire London bus operation to meet the disposal targets, I'd personally like to see NX Group re-enter the London bus market on scale, a deal like that could add another 885 buses to its UK bus business

I would also like NatEx to reenter London as long as this doesnt divert resources away from the west midlands like last time

Yes I agree, investment levels in new buses would need to be maintained in both the West Midlands & Dundee, it would give them the option of having midlife buses available to cascade as well to help remove the remaining early low floor single deckers.

Bowker should never have sold the original Travel London business to Abellio in the first place, the London bus fleet excluding surrey now accounts for 502 vehicles and I understand most garages are at or near full capacity with new tender wins / retained tenders

Im sure NX have the money and the clout to do well in London this time tho having a London operation is dangerous as last time resources were diverted away and First boast of all this investment-London soaked most of it up!!, wrecking their other operations

NX have funds available to make acquisitions once again, now would be the optimum time to acquire First's London bus business as First have invested heavily in new vehicles for new / renewed tenders and have a very modern fleet. I understand that there are very few of First's current routes up for re-tender / any new routes available that First could bid for in the next 12 - 18 months. Therefore fleet investment should be minimal until the next round of tenders in First operating areas

I am no expert but if NX went back to London I can see the West Mids suffering the fleet of First may be new but with the constant LEZ changes and regulations TFL come up with any new buses would go there again I see London as a white elephant consistantly throwing money at it. 

[Tony]

I did suggest a swop for one of  the Midland companies.  One thing to bear in mind is that Stagecoach may be thwarted in any bid to purchase any further pieces of First.  Also smaller companies are unlikely to buy pieces of First due to the number of them going belly-up.

South Wales will remain with First as they have had to take on Veolias work and there isnt an obvious alternative unless Arriva , Centrebus and Go-Ahead want to move into new areas. 

Centrebus could buy Northampton, but Plymouth could be difficult to sell because Go-Ahead/Stagecoach would be barred.  I think because of the OFT First will have a hard job disposing of any operation.  The logical companies would create a monopoly and the small timers are too weak to take on big company assets.  One only has to look at the amount Go-Ahead hoovered up in East Anglia in 2012!

I think there is NO CHANCE of First finding £82 million of assets to sell by Easter unless the Scottish Government nationalises First's Scottish operations!  Not a bad idea, but the free market zealots would have a fit!

sconehead85

There's a post on the GM buses Yahoo group that suggests Stagecoach have now offered First Group £36.2 million to buy their Bolton & Bury operations as well, I'd bus surprised if they accepted as they may as well dispose of the rest of Manchester if they sell off those two garages. But it does go to show that they could easily raise the £82 million shortfall by sacrificing one decent operation. Personally I think they should retain all the large former PTE operations and sell of some of the smaller operations Potteries, Leicester, Wyvern, Berkshire etc

There's also suggestions on another Forum that First may now been prepared to sell their entire London bus operation to meet the disposal targets, I'd personally like to see NX Group re-enter the London bus market on scale, a deal like that could add another 885 buses to its UK bus business

I would also like NatEx to reenter London as long as this doesnt divert resources away from the west midlands like last time

Yes I agree, investment levels in new buses would need to be maintained in both the West Midlands & Dundee, it would give them the option of having midlife buses available to cascade as well to help remove the remaining early low floor single deckers.

Bowker should never have sold the original Travel London business to Abellio in the first place, the London bus fleet excluding surrey now accounts for 502 vehicles and I understand most garages are at or near full capacity with new tender wins / retained tenders

Im sure NX have the money and the clout to do well in London this time tho having a London operation is dangerous as last time resources were diverted away and First boast of all this investment-London soaked most of it up!!, wrecking their other operations

NX have funds available to make acquisitions once again, now would be the optimum time to acquire First's London bus business as First have invested heavily in new vehicles for new / renewed tenders and have a very modern fleet. I understand that there are very few of First's current routes up for re-tender / any new routes available that First could bid for in the next 12 - 18 months. Therefore fleet investment should be minimal until the next round of tenders in First operating areas

I am no expert but if NX went back to London I can see the West Mids suffering the fleet of First may be new but with the constant LEZ changes and regulations TFL come up with any new buses would go there again I see London as a white elephant consistantly throwing money at it.

As TfL is buying 600 Borismasters and telling operators of new contracts they must use them on lease from TfL the 'all new vehicles go to London' problem that first, and to a degree Stagecoach before them had won't be a problem.

[winston]

I did suggest a swop for one of  the Midland companies.  One thing to bear in mind is that Stagecoach may be thwarted in any bid to purchase any further pieces of First.  Also smaller companies are unlikely to buy pieces of First due to the number of them going belly-up.

South Wales will remain with First as they have had to take on Veolias work and there isnt an obvious alternative unless Arriva , Centrebus and Go-Ahead want to move into new areas. 

Centrebus could buy Northampton, but Plymouth could be difficult to sell because Go-Ahead/Stagecoach would be barred.  I think because of the OFT First will have a hard job disposing of any operation.  The logical companies would create a monopoly and the small timers are too weak to take on big company assets.  One only has to look at the amount Go-Ahead hoovered up in East Anglia in 2012!

I think there is NO CHANCE of First finding £82 million of assets to sell by Easter unless the Scottish Government nationalises First's Scottish operations!  Not a bad idea, but the free market zealots would have a fit!

sconehead85

There's a post on the GM buses Yahoo group that suggests Stagecoach have now offered First Group £36.2 million to buy their Bolton & Bury operations as well, I'd bus surprised if they accepted as they may as well dispose of the rest of Manchester if they sell off those two garages. But it does go to show that they could easily raise the £82 million shortfall by sacrificing one decent operation. Personally I think they should retain all the large former PTE operations and sell of some of the smaller operations Potteries, Leicester, Wyvern, Berkshire etc

There's also suggestions on another Forum that First may now been prepared to sell their entire London bus operation to meet the disposal targets, I'd personally like to see NX Group re-enter the London bus market on scale, a deal like that could add another 885 buses to its UK bus business

I would also like NatEx to reenter London as long as this doesnt divert resources away from the west midlands like last time

Yes I agree, investment levels in new buses would need to be maintained in both the West Midlands & Dundee, it would give them the option of having midlife buses available to cascade as well to help remove the remaining early low floor single deckers.

Bowker should never have sold the original Travel London business to Abellio in the first place, the London bus fleet excluding surrey now accounts for 502 vehicles and I understand most garages are at or near full capacity with new tender wins / retained tenders

Im sure NX have the money and the clout to do well in London this time tho having a London operation is dangerous as last time resources were diverted away and First boast of all this investment-London soaked most of it up!!, wrecking their other operations

NX have funds available to make acquisitions once again, now would be the optimum time to acquire First's London bus business as First have invested heavily in new vehicles for new / renewed tenders and have a very modern fleet. I understand that there are very few of First's current routes up for re-tender / any new routes available that First could bid for in the next 12 - 18 months. Therefore fleet investment should be minimal until the next round of tenders in First operating areas

I am no expert but if NX went back to London I can see the West Mids suffering the fleet of First may be new but with the constant LEZ changes and regulations TFL come up with any new buses would go there again I see London as a white elephant consistantly throwing money at it.

As TfL is buying 600 Borismasters and telling operators of new contracts they must use them on lease from TfL the 'all new vehicles go to London' problem that first, and to a degree Stagecoach before them had won't be a problem.

In addition, NX have made commitments to Centro on the numbers of new vehicles they will be purchasing over a set period as part of their Quality Contract

[JoNi]

There's little money in London contracts which operate on wafer thin margins as a result of the tendering process. TfL are even cutting the "bonuses" they pay operators for good route performance so they can save money.

[Stevo]

It would indeed be strange if NX went back into London as it would be the fourth time, first with the purchase of Westlink - sold to London United, then setting up Travel London - sold to Connex, then buying the Connex and TGM operations and recreating Travel London - sold to Abellio.

[tank90]

I take it that First are to renumber the enviros as 67644/5/6 are to leave the fleet. 67631 to become 67605

[Tony]

I take it that First are to renumber the enviros as 67644/5/6 are to leave the fleet. 67631 to become 67605

Why would First renumber any buses?
As far as I am aware their current computer database doesn't allow for any fleetnumber to be used twice or renumbering.

To prove a point on this South West had a batch of Enviro 200s in 2008 numbered 44902-14. When these were entered onto First's computer 44904 was accidently entered as 44094, because it couldn't be changed it was re-entered as the correct number as another vehicle and the incorrect 44094 was just marked as 'disposed of'

A year later London took delivery of a batch of Enviro 200s numbered 44083-44128, but there is no 44094! This is because that incorrect entry is stopping another vehicle being numbered 44094 and the wrong 44094 cannot be renumbered

[arrifirststage]

Tony,this is a very interesting point and on a small scale is yet further indication of First's inflexability which is endemic throughout the group.
A company which cannot adjust to small things will surely need a complete change of mindset to adjust to the major changes needed to modernise both the fleet and the operations.
If Mr Fearnley and his team succeed in turning First round they will be far more deserving of a knighthood than certain other group management were,and I for one hope they are successful.

[winston]

There's little money in London contracts which operate on wafer thin margins as a result of the tendering process. TfL are even cutting the "bonuses" they pay operators for good route performance so they can save money.

Profit margins aren't a big as in the deregulated areas, but they are still fairly decent. Go-ahead Group are more than happy with their London margins as demonstrated by their recent purchase of First London Northumberland Park depot, they are also rapidly approaching the max 25% market share limit, Stagecoach have also re-enter London.

I think for NX, buying a large London bus business or acquiring other bus operations that First are looking to dispose of is more sustainable & guaranteed in terms of turnover & profits than trying to win UK rail Franchises, even with the 15 year contracts. As can be seen by the loss of East Coast & NX East Anglia is has a massive loss on your turnover & profits which NX are still yet to replace

[sconehead85]

A lthough these are not in the Midlands, First should renumber 62411/2 (the first Enviros) to 67605/6 instead.  I have thoughts about the entire First numbering system, which I would like to tackle elsewhere.

sconehead85