For Sale

[Tony]

The deal hasn't actually taken place yet, not due to OFT.

This is an email I have received from Rotala tonight

'Answers to the question flying around on email's;

Rotala have at this point exchanged contracts with FMR for the 2 depots.  We need to undertake TUPE consultations, once this has been completed the transaction will go ahead.

So in essence the business is still at the moment owned by First Group Plc'

[Justin Tyme]

It's just occurred to me that First and Diamond only compete on two corridors in Redditch.  So while the OFT are bound to be interested, I wouldn't say it's a foregone conclusion that they will block the deal.

[PM]

Especially not seeing as Johnsons, Woosh, Stagecoach all operate in

[winston]

I'll be interested to see what happens next. Clearly, if the oft dont block the sale, rotala should be able to restructure, maybe close one redditch depot and make savings by reducing the workforce-something they certainly havent ruled out doing in kidderminster and rationalising the network. Clearly, many members of the fleet are quite youthful-but the question is does rotala want the presidents and the e300s when in the case of the enviros nowhere else runs them. If the sale goes through, it would make sense to sell the presidents and possibly the e300s-nasty buses-and cascade b7rles up from wessex as replacements. I wonder if rotala will remove the b7rles from the for sale list now so as they can be used in redditch. Potentially if the sales arent blocked, rotala could make some pretty decent money in redditch and kidderminster and i imagine that if hereford and worcester ever appear on the for sale list then rotala will try and buy them. I must say im very pleased and i hope that the oft see sense and realise that this acquisition is in the interests of passengers and I hope rotala make a good job of integrating first's services and its own services to create a good network.

Peter123,

How will the sale be in the interest of passengers? If the deal goes ahead Rotala will no doubt close Church Road and move its Red Diamond fleet in tot he former First depot, at present both operators compete at 10 min frequencies on the 57/58, once Rotala takeover & the competition is out the way, no doubt the combined Pvr of the 57/58 will be cut, overall frequencies reduced as one less operator plus little incentive to offer special promotional fares as currently offered, Rotala also don't have a very good record of investing in new vehicles for its Diamond business, nor do they make the profits to re-invest in fleet replacement. The deal will also see engineers / office staff due to overlap of functions & drivers surplus to requirement due to fewer buses allocated as a whole

[winston]

The deal hasn't actually taken place yet, not due to OFT.

This is an email I have received from Rotala tonight

'Answers to the question flying around on email's;

Rotala have at this point exchanged contracts with FMR for the 2 depots.  We need to undertake TUPE consultations, once this has been completed the transaction will go ahead.

So in essence the business is still at the moment owned by First Group Plc'

Realistically its a done deal unless the Oft block it, I'm surprised NX weren't interested seen as though it was sold for a mere £1.5 million, much of that must be the value of the two depots

[PM]

I'll be interested to see what happens next. Clearly, if the oft dont block the sale, rotala should be able to restructure, maybe close one redditch depot and make savings by reducing the workforce-something they certainly havent ruled out doing in kidderminster and rationalising the network. Clearly, many members of the fleet are quite youthful-but the question is does rotala want the presidents and the e300s when in the case of the enviros nowhere else runs them. If the sale goes through, it would make sense to sell the presidents and possibly the e300s-nasty buses-and cascade b7rles up from wessex as replacements. I wonder if rotala will remove the b7rles from the for sale list now so as they can be used in redditch. Potentially if the sales arent blocked, rotala could make some pretty decent money in redditch and kidderminster and i imagine that if hereford and worcester ever appear on the for sale list then rotala will try and buy them. I must say im very pleased and i hope that the oft see sense and realise that this acquisition is in the interests of passengers and I hope rotala make a good job of integrating first's services and its own services to create a good network.

Peter123,

How will the sale be in the interest of passengers? If the deal goes ahead Rotala will no doubt close Church Road and move its Red Diamond fleet in tot he former First depot, at present both operators compete at 10 min frequencies on the 57/58, once Rotala takeover & the competition is out the way, no doubt the combined Pvr of the 57/58 will be cut, overall frequencies reduced as one less operator plus little incentive to offer special promotional fares as currently offered, Rotala also don't have a very good record of investing in new vehicles for its Diamond business, nor do they make the profits to re-invest in fleet replacement. The deal will also see engineers / office staff due to overlap of functions & drivers surplus to requirement due to fewer buses allocated as a whole

It is in the interests of passengers having a more co-ordinated rationalised network where one pass covers all redditch routes. Its the same argument we saw floating round when b and h bought stagecoach's operations in brighton and look at brighton now! Top class transport network-rotala will be able to transform the business into something really good if the deal isnt blocked.

[winston]

I'll be interested to see what happens next. Clearly, if the oft dont block the sale, rotala should be able to restructure, maybe close one redditch depot and make savings by reducing the workforce-something they certainly havent ruled out doing in kidderminster and rationalising the network. Clearly, many members of the fleet are quite youthful-but the question is does rotala want the presidents and the e300s when in the case of the enviros nowhere else runs them. If the sale goes through, it would make sense to sell the presidents and possibly the e300s-nasty buses-and cascade b7rles up from wessex as replacements. I wonder if rotala will remove the b7rles from the for sale list now so as they can be used in redditch. Potentially if the sales arent blocked, rotala could make some pretty decent money in redditch and kidderminster and i imagine that if hereford and worcester ever appear on the for sale list then rotala will try and buy them. I must say im very pleased and i hope that the oft see sense and realise that this acquisition is in the interests of passengers and I hope rotala make a good job of integrating first's services and its own services to create a good network.

Peter123,

How will the sale be in the interest of passengers? If the deal goes ahead Rotala will no doubt close Church Road and move its Red Diamond fleet in tot he former First depot, at present both operators compete at 10 min frequencies on the 57/58, once Rotala takeover & the competition is out the way, no doubt the combined Pvr of the 57/58 will be cut, overall frequencies reduced as one less operator plus little incentive to offer special promotional fares as currently offered, Rotala also don't have a very good record of investing in new vehicles for its Diamond business, nor do they make the profits to re-invest in fleet replacement. The deal will also see engineers / office staff due to overlap of functions & drivers surplus to requirement due to fewer buses allocated as a whole

It is in the interests of passengers having a more co-ordinated rationalised network where one pass covers all redditch routes. Its the same argument we saw floating round when b and h bought stagecoach's operations in brighton and look at brighton now! Top class transport network-rotala will be able to transform the business into something really good if the deal isnt blocked.

But passengers already have that with the First network combined with increased frequencies/special fare promotions due to the two competing companies..... I think you're setting your sights/expectations a little high, it is Rotala we are talking about, they haven't done anything with the former Go West Midlands business and group profit margins are very poor, hence the need to issue additional shares or take on further debt for fleet/expansion

[PM]

I'll be interested to see what happens next. Clearly, if the oft dont block the sale, rotala should be able to restructure, maybe close one redditch depot and make savings by reducing the workforce-something they certainly havent ruled out doing in kidderminster and rationalising the network. Clearly, many members of the fleet are quite youthful-but the question is does rotala want the presidents and the e300s when in the case of the enviros nowhere else runs them. If the sale goes through, it would make sense to sell the presidents and possibly the e300s-nasty buses-and cascade b7rles up from wessex as replacements. I wonder if rotala will remove the b7rles from the for sale list now so as they can be used in redditch. Potentially if the sales arent blocked, rotala could make some pretty decent money in redditch and kidderminster and i imagine that if hereford and worcester ever appear on the for sale list then rotala will try and buy them. I must say im very pleased and i hope that the oft see sense and realise that this acquisition is in the interests of passengers and I hope rotala make a good job of integrating first's services and its own services to create a good network.

Peter123,

How will the sale be in the interest of passengers? If the deal goes ahead Rotala will no doubt close Church Road and move its Red Diamond fleet in tot he former First depot, at present both operators compete at 10 min frequencies on the 57/58, once Rotala takeover & the competition is out the way, no doubt the combined Pvr of the 57/58 will be cut, overall frequencies reduced as one less operator plus little incentive to offer special promotional fares as currently offered, Rotala also don't have a very good record of investing in new vehicles for its Diamond business, nor do they make the profits to re-invest in fleet replacement. The deal will also see engineers / office staff due to overlap of functions & drivers surplus to requirement due to fewer buses allocated as a whole

It is in the interests of passengers having a more co-ordinated rationalised network where one pass covers all redditch routes. Its the same argument we saw floating round when b and h bought stagecoach's operations in brighton and look at brighton now! Top class transport network-rotala will be able to transform the business into something really good if the deal isnt blocked.

But passengers already have that with the First network combined with increased frequencies/special fare promotions due to the two competing companies..... I think you're setting your sights/expectations a little high, it is Rotala we are talking about, they haven't done anything with the former Go West Midlands business and group profit margins are very poor, hence the need to issue additional shares or take on further debt for fleet/expansion

They havent done anything with Go West Midlands. Other than the fact that there have been a lot of new buses, more newish secondhand ones, increase in profitability and thats not progress from an upstart group who succeeded where the uk number 5 failed. I personally call that astonishing progress.

[Tony]

I'll be interested to see what happens next. Clearly, if the oft dont block the sale, rotala should be able to restructure, maybe close one redditch depot and make savings by reducing the workforce-something they certainly havent ruled out doing in kidderminster and rationalising the network. Clearly, many members of the fleet are quite youthful-but the question is does rotala want the presidents and the e300s when in the case of the enviros nowhere else runs them. If the sale goes through, it would make sense to sell the presidents and possibly the e300s-nasty buses-and cascade b7rles up from wessex as replacements. I wonder if rotala will remove the b7rles from the for sale list now so as they can be used in redditch. Potentially if the sales arent blocked, rotala could make some pretty decent money in redditch and kidderminster and i imagine that if hereford and worcester ever appear on the for sale list then rotala will try and buy them. I must say im very pleased and i hope that the oft see sense and realise that this acquisition is in the interests of passengers and I hope rotala make a good job of integrating first's services and its own services to create a good network.

Peter123,

How will the sale be in the interest of passengers? If the deal goes ahead Rotala will no doubt close Church Road and move its Red Diamond fleet in tot he former First depot, at present both operators compete at 10 min frequencies on the 57/58, once Rotala takeover & the competition is out the way, no doubt the combined Pvr of the 57/58 will be cut, overall frequencies reduced as one less operator plus little incentive to offer special promotional fares as currently offered, Rotala also don't have a very good record of investing in new vehicles for its Diamond business, nor do they make the profits to re-invest in fleet replacement. The deal will also see engineers / office staff due to overlap of functions & drivers surplus to requirement due to fewer buses allocated as a whole

It is in the interests of passengers having a more co-ordinated rationalised network where one pass covers all redditch routes. Its the same argument we saw floating round when b and h bought stagecoach's operations in brighton and look at brighton now! Top class transport network-rotala will be able to transform the business into something really good if the deal isnt blocked.

But passengers already have that with the First network combined with increased frequencies/special fare promotions due to the two competing companies..... I think you're setting your sights/expectations a little high, it is Rotala we are talking about, they haven't done anything with the former Go West Midlands business and group profit margins are very poor, hence the need to issue additional shares or take on further debt for fleet/expansion

They havent done anything with Go West Midlands. Other than the fact that there have been a lot of new buses, more newish secondhand ones, increase in profitability and thats not progress from an upstart group who succeeded where the uk number 5 failed. I personally call that astonishing progress.

A lot of new buses? Yes but most of them have now left the fleet, the newer second hand ones are just about keeping the average age of the fleet about the same as it was

[PM]

I'll be interested to see what happens next. Clearly, if the oft dont block the sale, rotala should be able to restructure, maybe close one redditch depot and make savings by reducing the workforce-something they certainly havent ruled out doing in kidderminster and rationalising the network. Clearly, many members of the fleet are quite youthful-but the question is does rotala want the presidents and the e300s when in the case of the enviros nowhere else runs them. If the sale goes through, it would make sense to sell the presidents and possibly the e300s-nasty buses-and cascade b7rles up from wessex as replacements. I wonder if rotala will remove the b7rles from the for sale list now so as they can be used in redditch. Potentially if the sales arent blocked, rotala could make some pretty decent money in redditch and kidderminster and i imagine that if hereford and worcester ever appear on the for sale list then rotala will try and buy them. I must say im very pleased and i hope that the oft see sense and realise that this acquisition is in the interests of passengers and I hope rotala make a good job of integrating first's services and its own services to create a good network.

Peter123,

How will the sale be in the interest of passengers? If the deal goes ahead Rotala will no doubt close Church Road and move its Red Diamond fleet in tot he former First depot, at present both operators compete at 10 min frequencies on the 57/58, once Rotala takeover & the competition is out the way, no doubt the combined Pvr of the 57/58 will be cut, overall frequencies reduced as one less operator plus little incentive to offer special promotional fares as currently offered, Rotala also don't have a very good record of investing in new vehicles for its Diamond business, nor do they make the profits to re-invest in fleet replacement. The deal will also see engineers / office staff due to overlap of functions & drivers surplus to requirement due to fewer buses allocated as a whole

It is in the interests of passengers having a more co-ordinated rationalised network where one pass covers all redditch routes. Its the same argument we saw floating round when b and h bought stagecoach's operations in brighton and look at brighton now! Top class transport network-rotala will be able to transform the business into something really good if the deal isnt blocked.

But passengers already have that with the First network combined with increased frequencies/special fare promotions due to the two competing companies..... I think you're setting your sights/expectations a little high, it is Rotala we are talking about, they haven't done anything with the former Go West Midlands business and group profit margins are very poor, hence the need to issue additional shares or take on further debt for fleet/expansion

They havent done anything with Go West Midlands. Other than the fact that there have been a lot of new buses, more newish secondhand ones, increase in profitability and thats not progress from an upstart group who succeeded where the uk number 5 failed. I personally call that astonishing progress.

A lot of new buses? Yes but most of them have now left the fleet, the newer second hand ones are just about keeping the average age of the fleet about the same as it was

Few would question that the overall quality of the operation is better when compared to go ahead and im pretty sure the average age is at least slightly lower than it was

[D10]

I hope Diamond will now issue printed timetables in Worcestershire. I have never been able to locate Diamond timetables in Redditch and printed information is non-existent from the County Council.

Now they could produce some proper local guides for each town to actually sell the local services to the public who want information that they can carry round with them.

[winston]

I'll be interested to see what happens next. Clearly, if the oft dont block the sale, rotala should be able to restructure, maybe close one redditch depot and make savings by reducing the workforce-something they certainly havent ruled out doing in kidderminster and rationalising the network. Clearly, many members of the fleet are quite youthful-but the question is does rotala want the presidents and the e300s when in the case of the enviros nowhere else runs them. If the sale goes through, it would make sense to sell the presidents and possibly the e300s-nasty buses-and cascade b7rles up from wessex as replacements. I wonder if rotala will remove the b7rles from the for sale list now so as they can be used in redditch. Potentially if the sales arent blocked, rotala could make some pretty decent money in redditch and kidderminster and i imagine that if hereford and worcester ever appear on the for sale list then rotala will try and buy them. I must say im very pleased and i hope that the oft see sense and realise that this acquisition is in the interests of passengers and I hope rotala make a good job of integrating first's services and its own services to create a good network.

Peter123,

How will the sale be in the interest of passengers? If the deal goes ahead Rotala will no doubt close Church Road and move its Red Diamond fleet in tot he former First depot, at present both operators compete at 10 min frequencies on the 57/58, once Rotala takeover & the competition is out the way, no doubt the combined Pvr of the 57/58 will be cut, overall frequencies reduced as one less operator plus little incentive to offer special promotional fares as currently offered, Rotala also don't have a very good record of investing in new vehicles for its Diamond business, nor do they make the profits to re-invest in fleet replacement. The deal will also see engineers / office staff due to overlap of functions & drivers surplus to requirement due to fewer buses allocated as a whole

It is in the interests of passengers having a more co-ordinated rationalised network where one pass covers all redditch routes. Its the same argument we saw floating round when b and h bought stagecoach's operations in brighton and look at brighton now! Top class transport network-rotala will be able to transform the business into something really good if the deal isnt blocked.

But passengers already have that with the First network combined with increased frequencies/special fare promotions due to the two competing companies..... I think you're setting your sights/expectations a little high, it is Rotala we are talking about, they haven't done anything with the former Go West Midlands business and group profit margins are very poor, hence the need to issue additional shares or take on further debt for fleet/expansion

They havent done anything with Go West Midlands. Other than the fact that there have been a lot of new buses, more newish secondhand ones, increase in profitability and thats not progress from an upstart group who succeeded where the uk number 5 failed. I personally call that astonishing progress.

A lot of new buses delivered, but then move on or are sold very quickly without replacement (9 x 58 plate B7RLE/Plaxton Centro's that went to Wessex when the 09 plate Centro's arrived and the 23 x MAN / MCV's sold to New Zealand without replacement)

Rotala Group % profit margins have barely changed overt he last four years at around 3.5%, this is despite all the acquisitions & a significant increase in turnover

[winston]

I'll be interested to see what happens next. Clearly, if the oft dont block the sale, rotala should be able to restructure, maybe close one redditch depot and make savings by reducing the workforce-something they certainly havent ruled out doing in kidderminster and rationalising the network. Clearly, many members of the fleet are quite youthful-but the question is does rotala want the presidents and the e300s when in the case of the enviros nowhere else runs them. If the sale goes through, it would make sense to sell the presidents and possibly the e300s-nasty buses-and cascade b7rles up from wessex as replacements. I wonder if rotala will remove the b7rles from the for sale list now so as they can be used in redditch. Potentially if the sales arent blocked, rotala could make some pretty decent money in redditch and kidderminster and i imagine that if hereford and worcester ever appear on the for sale list then rotala will try and buy them. I must say im very pleased and i hope that the oft see sense and realise that this acquisition is in the interests of passengers and I hope rotala make a good job of integrating first's services and its own services to create a good network.

Peter123,

How will the sale be in the interest of passengers? If the deal goes ahead Rotala will no doubt close Church Road and move its Red Diamond fleet in tot he former First depot, at present both operators compete at 10 min frequencies on the 57/58, once Rotala takeover & the competition is out the way, no doubt the combined Pvr of the 57/58 will be cut, overall frequencies reduced as one less operator plus little incentive to offer special promotional fares as currently offered, Rotala also don't have a very good record of investing in new vehicles for its Diamond business, nor do they make the profits to re-invest in fleet replacement. The deal will also see engineers / office staff due to overlap of functions & drivers surplus to requirement due to fewer buses allocated as a whole

It is in the interests of passengers having a more co-ordinated rationalised network where one pass covers all redditch routes. Its the same argument we saw floating round when b and h bought stagecoach's operations in brighton and look at brighton now! Top class transport network-rotala will be able to transform the business into something really good if the deal isnt blocked.

But passengers already have that with the First network combined with increased frequencies/special fare promotions due to the two competing companies..... I think you're setting your sights/expectations a little high, it is Rotala we are talking about, they haven't done anything with the former Go West Midlands business and group profit margins are very poor, hence the need to issue additional shares or take on further debt for fleet/expansion

They havent done anything with Go West Midlands. Other than the fact that there have been a lot of new buses, more newish secondhand ones, increase in profitability and thats not progress from an upstart group who succeeded where the uk number 5 failed. I personally call that astonishing progress.

A lot of new buses? Yes but most of them have now left the fleet, the newer second hand ones are just about keeping the average age of the fleet about the same as it was

Few would question that the overall quality of the operation is better when compared to go ahead and im pretty sure the average age is at least slightly lower than it was

Go-ahead never really give it a proper go... they should have stuck at it with what they ended up selling it for

[j789]

Going back to a earlier comment about possible buses being purchased I would think that Redditch's Enviros will be transferred to Worcester before takeover to replace Lances and Darts there. Worcester already has a lot of these buses so it would make sense. They arent bad buses to drive most of the time, good heaters and excellent in snowy weather because they are light for a full sized single decker.

[Ash]

Just by observations and what I hear is that it is blue diamond that struggles (forgetting the signature services) with the 10 being withdrawn in March and they have very few commercial services left with mainly the 16/17/50. All those services use relatively new buses which has had some influence because of the emission ruling which has left black diamond with using 15 year old darts on key services such as the 4 and 301 as well as other popular local West Bromwich service such as the 40/42/43. Buses have been acquired such as the ones form Your bus but seem to be taking a very long time to enter service and the buses sold such as r530yrp seem to be taking a long time to leave the fleet even though being sold for a while. In terms of competition on services such as the 56 and 002 where there is no direct competition cheaper return fares less than the cost of 2 singles are available so with red diamond I would be surprised if all offers were to be withdrawn completely. Going past Long acre today and last time i visited tividale there has been a large accumulation of darts all parked up some of which are V and W reg and like somebody has mentioned are newer than the vehicles that are currently being used by First in some cases.