This could be interesting
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/transport-london-style-scheme-considered-26197319?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target
More poor journalism by 'Reach'
"If carried out, the WMCA would determine which places are connected by the network, the cost of fares and driver pay and other details which have been under the control of private firms for decades."
Since when did franchising determine drivers' pay? It doesn't in London, won't in Manchester and doesn't on the railways. If every cost was decided by the franchising authority you wouldn't get any variance in the bids.
Quote from: Coventrybususer95 on February 09, 2023, 06:28:59 PMThis could be interesting
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/transport-london-style-scheme-considered-26197319?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target
i,ll believe it when it happens otherwise its just a fluff article to fill column inches, isnt TFL in financial problems so why copy this model, still would have all the current issues, where the drivers coming from to improve the network, i personally encourage folks who want to drive for living go and do class 1 and the driving world is your oyster
I'm confused as to why TfWM think that the only operator that would bid for major franchises would be National Express ! That certainly doesnt mirror Manchester, where various new entrants (including NX) submitted bids.
Quote from: metrocity on February 10, 2023, 07:13:25 AMI'm confused as to why TfWM think that the only operator that would bid for major franchises would be National Express ! That certainly doesnt mirror Manchester, where various new entrants (including NX) submitted bids.
So am I, surely the likes of Rotala and Stagecoach would bid?
Or indeed an entirely new entrant from outside the big UK groups more used to running in a franchised system, especially if they see an opportunity.
1) The problem is passenger numbers have not returned to pre covid levels. I'm working hybrid been I'm only in the office part of the week the rest is at home. If you was a passenger who drives a car and only now in work one day a week it maybe cheaper to go in to work via own car rather than bus.
2) congestion on network due to my more cars on road. There is nothing NX/Diamond can do to resolve the congestion, but the bus companies could suggest more bus gates or bus lanes such as having buses lanes/gates down the whole of the Hagley Road from Five Ways to Bearwood or from Snow Hill down the A41 to West Bromwich, but would councils approve the idea of more bus lanes/gates.
3) complete network reviews would be needed to see what routes are still viable worth keeping or what routes need to be axed fully or route overalled, for example the 40 Wednesbury to West Bromwich could be terminated at stone cross, as there are multiple options from stone cross as you have links to great bridge (30) West Bromwich (4/4H/4M/41/45/30) and Oldbury (4/4H/4M)
Quote from: Ginger66 on February 10, 2023, 08:57:28 PM1) The problem is passenger numbers have not returned to pre covid levels. I'm working hybrid been I'm only in the office part of the week the rest is at home. If you was a passenger who drives a car and only now in work one day a week it maybe cheaper to go in to work via own car rather than bus.
2) congestion on network due to my more cars on road. There is nothing NX/Diamond can do to resolve the congestion, but the bus companies could suggest more bus gates or bus lanes such as having buses lanes/gates down the whole of the Hagley Road from Five Ways to Bearwood or from Snow Hill down the A41 to West Bromwich, but would councils approve the idea of more bus lanes/gates.
3) complete network reviews would be needed to see what routes are still viable worth keeping or what routes need to be axed fully or route overalled, for example the 40 Wednesbury to West Bromwich could be terminated at stone cross, as there are multiple options from stone cross as you have links to great bridge (30) West Bromwich (4/4H/4M/41/45/30) and Oldbury (4/4H/4M)
Just related to your point 2 , went to Tesco today spring hill. All the road works on the Dudley Rd is that all to do with the planned 82/87/50 cross over route? Curious didn't see point of starting new post
There are other things that can be done instead of bringing buses into public ownership.
Ban cars from certain roads to allow bus smooth sailing on route. (Such as no parking on road between 6am - 7pm) or Where the roads are narrow this could alloe buses to run without having to wait for passing cars.
Quote from: Tony on February 09, 2023, 06:38:54 PMMore poor journalism by 'Reach'
"If carried out, the WMCA would determine which places are connected by the network, the cost of fares and driver pay and other details which have been under the control of private firms for decades."
Since when did franchising determine drivers' pay? It doesn't in London, won't in Manchester and doesn't on the railways. If every cost was decided by the franchising authority you wouldn't get any variance in the bids.
Tony,
I agree Manchester doesn't determine drivers pay. However, what it does do is introduce a minimum employment charter and we have seen pay rates all find a similar level. There are differences but most of that is really to do with breaks/ unpaid elements
Simon
Quote from: metrocity on February 10, 2023, 07:13:25 AMI'm confused as to why TfWM think that the only operator that would bid for major franchises would be National Express ! That certainly doesnt mirror Manchester, where various new entrants (including NX) submitted bids.
I agree
The west midlands has always been all about NX but I feel franchises may lead to stagecoach, first, Go Ahead, Transdev and diamond wanting more pieces of the pie
Quote from: BK63 YWP on February 13, 2023, 04:10:00 PMThe west midlands has always been all about NX but I feel franchises may lead to stagecoach, first, Go Ahead, Transdev and diamond wanting more pieces of the pie
Go-Ahead did take a bite of the cherry as it where when they purchased Diamond bus in 2005 and rebranding it Go|West Midlands and Go-Ahead sold its West Midlands to Rotala in 2008
And I seem to recall Stagecoach had a go with several routes in Coventry if I recall.
All we need to run buses in the Midlands is Transport UK/Abellio, Transdev, RATP, Wellglade and ComfortDelGro and all the main groups will have ran here
Quote from: the trainbasher on February 18, 2023, 05:06:45 AMAll we need to run buses in the Midlands is Transport UK/Abellio, Transdev, RATP, Wellglade and ComfortDelGro and all the main groups will have ran here
Actually Abellio do already run in the West Midlands as they are part of the consortium operating West Midlands Trains and North Western Trains.
Rather than start a new thread thought i,d place my question here, if franchising were to happen in the West Midlands a new livery would be on the cards, London has the iconic red, Manchester gone for a crap yellow, West Midlands any ideas folks? a single colour does look smart if done correctly
Quote from: 2900 on September 27, 2023, 09:16:09 AMRather than start a new thread thought i,d place my question here, if franchising were to happen in the West Midlands a new livery would be on the cards, London has the iconic red, Manchester gone for a crap yellow, West Midlands any ideas folks? a single colour does look smart if done correctly
The iconic wmpte blue n cream
Quote from: 2900 on September 27, 2023, 09:16:09 AMRather than start a new thread thought i,d place my question here, if franchising were to happen in the West Midlands a new livery would be on the cards, London has the iconic red, Manchester gone for a crap yellow, West Midlands any ideas folks? a single colour does look smart if done correctly
They have one already...
(https://wmbusphotos.com/NXWM/2001-2129/twm2125.230729.jpg)
(https://scontent-lhr6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/384239567_319510027289566_5793639349505656926_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s2048x2048&_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=iO_KBND0O0QAX_jLNoQ&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr6-1.xx&oh=03_AdSrS9Dsfi-QBU_Ir49gk_si-IXkNdgJy_aaIvh_qcNZQQ&oe=653B5A4D)
I was sampling Manchester yesterday, there's a lot of hard work to do up there for them to succeed, huge gaps in services, drivers not trained on ticket machines so giving everyone free rides, buses looking like some of the worst independants are running them. The picture was running on the 163 route which should be TfGM spec doubles. The doubles on there were ex London Scanias, which although refurbished, & converted to single door and repainted yellow do not meet the spec that was in the tender documents I read. The best routes I saw were the Diamond ones although one solo was on the 74 with the service on A4 paper in the windscreen http://wmbusphotos.com/Rotala/20885.html
Quote from: Tony on September 27, 2023, 10:16:04 AMI was sampling Manchester yesterday, there's a lot of hard work to do up there for them to succeed, huge gaps in services, drivers not trained on ticket machines so giving everyone free rides, buses looking like some of the worst independants are running them. The picture was running on the 163 route which should be TfGM spec doubles. The doubles on there were ex London Scanias, which although refurbished, & converted to single door and repainted yellow do not meet the spec that was in the tender documents I read. The best routes I saw were the Diamond ones although one solo was on the 74 with the service on A4 paper in the windscreen http://wmbusphotos.com/Rotala/20885.html
True. Also Go North West have had to hire in buses from across the country due to having insufficient vehicles of their own.
Quote from: Rachvince53 on September 27, 2023, 10:48:41 AMTrue. Also Go North West have had to hire in buses from across the country due to having insufficient vehicles of their own.
And drivers, Go North West have at least 85 drivers on loan from other Go-Ahead subsidiaries.
This is what happens when one operator moves in to a depot & another out overnight, it's never going to work no matter how much pre-planning has been done.
Quote from: Rachvince53 on September 27, 2023, 10:48:41 AMTrue. Also Go North West have had to hire in buses from across the country due to having insufficient vehicles of their own.
What's a bit ironic is the TfGM spec for vehicles was, apart from doors mostly TfL spec for CCTV seats etc, yet they don't have any Go-Ahead London vehicles on hire. I photographed Go North East, Metrobus & Go South from both Swindon & Poole
Quote from: Tony on September 27, 2023, 11:31:05 AMWhat's a bit ironic is the TfGM spec for vehicles was, apart from doors mostly TfL spec for CCTV seats etc, yet they don't have any Go-Ahead London vehicles on hire. I photographed Go North East, Metrobus & Go South from both Swindon & Poole
GNW have taken quite a few ex London E400's & Volvo B9TL's from London & coverted them to single door etc.
Quote from: winston on September 27, 2023, 11:40:26 AMGNW have taken quite a few ex London E400's & Volvo B9TL's from London & converted them to single door etc.
And E200s and Scania Omnicitys, although none seem to have the two wheelchair spaces the tender spec said refurbs should have
Quote from: Tony on September 27, 2023, 11:47:11 AMAnd E200s and Scania Omnicitys, although none seem to have the two wheelchair spaces the tender spec said refurbs should have
I'm not sure to what degree all the ex London buses were refurbished, do they have the TfGM Bee Network interiors?
Quote from: winston on September 27, 2023, 11:49:29 AMI'm not sure to what degree all the ex London buses were refurbished, do they have the TfGM Bee Network interiors?
I didn't look that closely, the 3 vehicles I travelled on yesterday were
1) new electric on the 35, bus great, driver having lots of problems with the ticket machine due to bad internet connection.
2) former Diamond StreetDeck on the 8 no problems
3) new electric on the 471, driver not yet trained on ticket machine so everyone got a free ride.
I had a look through the windows of one of the Omnicities on the 163 and could see only 1 wheelchair space, so certainly not full TfGM spec
I wanted photographs of the Scanias, but when I got to Bury I didn't see one for 45 minutes which is pretty awful for a 12 minute frequency service.
Bus times shows this was happening at various times through the day
https://bustimes.org/services/163-piccadilly-gardens-bury-interchange/vehicles?date=2023-09-26
Also when travelling on the 8 from Salford to Bolton there were large gaps in the service in the opposite direction, Bustime shows gaps up to 40 minutes again on a 12 min frequency service
https://bustimes.org/services/8-shudehill-interchange-bolton-interchange/vehicles?date=2023-09-26
I didn't see any bad traffic along the routes I was travelling on so looks like a combination of a shortage of drivers, and drivers new to the route struggling to keep time.
I also went onto the Vantage routes at Pendleton to photograph the ex First vehicles, but didn't see a single bus for the 30 minutes I was stood there in either direction. Each is supposed to be every 15 minutes so should have seen 10 buses! Bus times shows gaps of up to 74 minutes in the 15 minute frequency V2.
If bustimes is to be believed today a new electric was on there this morning peak which would be interesting on guided section!
Quote from: Tony on September 27, 2023, 12:26:48 PMI wanted photographs of the Scanias, but when I got to Bury I didn't see one for 45 minutes which is pretty awful for a 12 minute frequency service.
Bus times shows this was happening at various times through the day
https://bustimes.org/services/163-piccadilly-gardens-bury-interchange/vehicles?date=2023-09-26
Also when travelling on the 8 from Salford to Bolton there were large gaps in the service in the opposite direction, Bustime shows gaps up to 40 minutes again on a 12 min frequency service
https://bustimes.org/services/8-shudehill-interchange-bolton-interchange/vehicles?date=2023-09-26
I didn't see any bad traffic along the routes I was travelling on so looks like a combination of a shortage of drivers, and drivers new to the route struggling to keep time.
I also went onto the Vantage routes at Pendleton to photograph the ex First vehicles, but didn't see a single bus for the 30 minutes I was stood there in either direction. Each is supposed to be every 15 minutes so should have seen 10 buses! Bus times shows gaps of up to 74 minutes in the 15 minute frequency V2.
If bustimes is to be believed today a new electric was on there this morning peak which would be interesting on guided section!
There shouldn't be any issues with the 163, as its an existing GNW service, operated from the existing GNW Heywood depot.
Quote from: winston on September 27, 2023, 12:34:12 PMThere shouldn't be any issues with the 163, as its an existing GNW service, operated from the existing GNW Heywood depot.
There was plenty after I realised I hadn't photographed a Scania after standing in Bury for 30 minutes I looked on Bustimes map to see what was happening and almost every bus on the route was heading Manchester to Bury with no buses between Bury & Middleton. Looking at the map now, there's no buses either direction between Middleton & Manchester!
Quote from: Tony on September 27, 2023, 12:42:18 PMThere was plenty after I realised I hadn't photographed a Scania after standing in Bury for 30 minutes I looked on Bustimes map to see what was happening and almost every bus on the route was heading Manchester to Bury with no buses between Bury & Middleton. Looking at the map now, there's no buses either direction between Middleton & Manchester!
The 471 seems as bad with buses all bunched up, that's also now operated by Heywood depot. If the services are like that at lunchtime, I dred to think what they'll be like at peak time.
Quote from: winston on September 27, 2023, 12:48:58 PMThe 471 seems as bad with buses all bunched up, that's also now operated by Heywood depot. If the services are like that at lunchtime, I dred to think what they'll be like at peak time.
The 471 I caught yesterday (12:36 from Bolton) was spot on time, but the realtime in Bolton was showing 12:36 on time; 12:48 on time but 12:12 expected 12:48. Greater Manchester is well behind West Midlands on Realtime with only major bus stations seeming to have it (https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/383360664_841591447713623_4549506029389308575_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=uzS0Z4u2cjoAX8YUQsE&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=03_AdQPlpFL8dhbsqZjwvvj6JCH3-RGNhChqt0oSlZjXpigbw&oe=653BA4C1)
Quote from: winston on September 27, 2023, 12:48:58 PMThe 471 seems as bad with buses all bunched up, that's also now operated by Heywood depot. If the services are like that at lunchtime, I dred to think what they'll be like at peak time.
471 currently shows 9 buses heading between Rochdale & Bolton & 1 bus heading Bolton to Rochdale!
Quote from: Tony on September 27, 2023, 11:31:05 AMWhat's a bit ironic is the TfGM spec for vehicles was, apart from doors mostly TfL spec for CCTV seats etc, yet they don't have any Go-Ahead London vehicles on hire. I photographed Go North East, Metrobus & Go South from both Swindon & Poole
If only they had sent up some of the open top buses I've seen operating on the m1 when I've been in Poole and Bournemouth.
Quote from: Stu on September 27, 2023, 09:29:55 AMThey have one already...
(https://wmbusphotos.com/NXWM/2001-2129/twm2125.230729.jpg)
Totally forgot about this livery, left a great impression on me then, will there be any return to partnership operated routes or is that all history now nbus dayticket rules over the west mids
Quote from: 2900 on September 27, 2023, 05:37:29 PMTotally forgot about this livery, left a great impression on me then, will there be any return to partnership operated routes or is that all history now nbus dayticket rules over the west mids
Wonder if we'll see a grey version of it
Quote from: 2900 on September 27, 2023, 05:37:29 PMTotally forgot about this livery, left a great impression on me then, will there be any return to partnership operated routes or is that all history now nbus dayticket rules over the west mids
I would expect the partnership model is now effectively redundant now that nBus is the only ticket type available.
Franchising is now inevitable here it would seem.
Quote from: Stu on September 27, 2023, 06:40:18 PMI would expect the partnership model is now effectively redundant now that nBus is the only ticket type available.
Franchising is now inevitable here it would seem.
The 16/A, 31, 32 etc still have intergrated timetables I think don't they?
On the 16 timetable from the Markets there is a gap 00, 20, 40 minutes past the hour when the 16A runs.
Wonder if there will be an intergrated timetable on other routes at some point the 50 and Wolverhampton 11?
Quote from: Tony on September 27, 2023, 10:16:04 AM(https://scontent-lhr6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/384239567_319510027289566_5793639349505656926_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s2048x2048&_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=iO_KBND0O0QAX_jLNoQ&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr6-1.xx&oh=03_AdSrS9Dsfi-QBU_Ir49gk_si-IXkNdgJy_aaIvh_qcNZQQ&oe=653B5A4D)
I was sampling Manchester yesterday, there's a lot of hard work to do up there for them to succeed, huge gaps in services, drivers not trained on ticket machines so giving everyone free rides, buses looking like some of the worst independants are running them. The picture was running on the 163 route which should be TfGM spec doubles. The doubles on there were ex London Scanias, which although refurbished, & converted to single door and repainted yellow do not meet the spec that was in the tender documents I read. The best routes I saw were the Diamond ones although one solo was on the 74 with the service on A4 paper in the windscreen http://wmbusphotos.com/Rotala/20885.html
How long have the operators got to get services running as stated in their tenders before financial penalties are imposed?
Is franchising a good idea for the West Midlands?
Quote from: suavegarv on September 27, 2023, 10:01:18 PMHow long have the operators got to get services running as stated in their tenders before financial penalties are imposed?
Is franchising a good idea for the West Midlands?
If you've got a blank cheque and a clueless Labour mayor then yes Franchising is a good idea.
London is always held up as the pinnacle of a great public service but once you start digging into the financial realities of how much subsidy the franchising model there requires, it is actually shocking that people still think it is worth replicating elsewhere.
What we have in the West Midlands currently is no where near perfect either but it is still far superior to that offered in many other areas of the country, franchising will just continue to cost tax payers more for very little positive return compared to what we already have now.
Quote from: winston on September 27, 2023, 11:01:17 AMAnd drivers, Go North West have at least 85 drivers on loan from other Go-Ahead subsidiaries.
This is what happens when one operator moves in to a depot & another out overnight, it's never going to work no matter how much pre-planning has been done.
I would hope there was some buses not tracking yesterday on the 8 otherwise the 16:11; 16:25; 16:39; 16:51; 17:03 & 17:15 journies from Bolton didn't run leaving a 90 minute gap in service.
Whenever I have been in Bolton or Manchester before franchising and Diamond ran the 8 it always seemed really good with one bus arriving in Shudehill as the other one left so there was nearly always a bus there.
Quote from: 2206 on September 27, 2023, 06:45:43 PMThe 16/A, 31, 32 etc still have intergrated timetables I think don't they?
On the 16 timetable from the Markets there is a gap 00, 20, 40 minutes past the hour when the 16A runs.
Wonder if there will be an intergrated timetable on other routes at some point the 50 and Wolverhampton 11?
You are correct, the 31 and 32 are still integrated although there was a short period when Diamond withdrew from this arrangement (post-Covid I think).
Yet another idiot councillor who thinks franchising will make fares cheaper.
It may improve many things, but one thing it won't do is reduce fares!
West Midlands bus system branded 'broken, unreliable and unaffordable (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsbirmingham/west-midlands-bus-system-branded-broken-unreliable-and-unaffordable/ar-BB1pFVEY?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=3bbfb048b45741a59ed63df1ffe92be9&ei=12)
Quote from: Tony on July 09, 2024, 08:57:54 PMYet another idiot councillor who thinks franchising will make fares cheaper.
It may improve many things, but one thing it won't do is reduce fares!
West Midlands bus system branded 'broken, unreliable and unaffordable (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsbirmingham/west-midlands-bus-system-branded-broken-unreliable-and-unaffordable/ar-BB1pFVEY?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=3bbfb048b45741a59ed63df1ffe92be9&ei=12)
Agreed. I think franchising should be used as a last resort, because there are plenty of other strategies that should be tried first, in particular improved ticketing integration outside of urban areas, perhaps nationwide like the Deutschland ticket in Germany. Of course I'm aware that ticketing is rather well integrated in the West Midlands, but that sort of integration is lacking where I live outside metropolitan Leicester.
Quote from: Tony on July 09, 2024, 08:57:54 PMYet another idiot councillor who thinks franchising will make fares cheaper.
It may improve many things, but one thing it won't do is reduce fares!
West Midlands bus system branded 'broken, unreliable and unaffordable (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsbirmingham/west-midlands-bus-system-branded-broken-unreliable-and-unaffordable/ar-BB1pFVEY?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=3bbfb048b45741a59ed63df1ffe92be9&ei=12)
The fares were cheap enough before Andy Street got replaced.
Quote from: Tony on July 09, 2024, 08:57:54 PMYet another idiot councillor who thinks franchising will make fares cheaper.
It may improve many things, but one thing it won't do is reduce fares!
West Midlands bus system branded 'broken, unreliable and unaffordable (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsbirmingham/west-midlands-bus-system-branded-broken-unreliable-and-unaffordable/ar-BB1pFVEY?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=3bbfb048b45741a59ed63df1ffe92be9&ei=12)
I'm pretty sure that Cllr Akhtar has never been anywhere near a bus.
Quote"The whole system is broken, we mostly rely on the Government to fund us and it was always at the last minute when we'd get that funding. The buses are not reliable and they are not even affordable. The buses are crucial to our economy, to our community, tackle air pollution and congestion but we are in a mess.
"As far as this year's budget, we have balanced the budget. Now it is up to us as politicians. We have a deregulated system which always sees money going to shareholders rather than putting back into the system and having a safeguarded network."
My emphasis in bold. Buses are much more affordable than trains or taxis are.
And as for money going to shareholders, I don't think either of NX (Mobico) or Stagecoach have paid out dividends to shareholders for a couple of years now. Besides, what profits are being made are being invested back into the company through purchase of new vehicles etc.
These socialists just don't like the idea of private businesses being successful.
Thatcher wasn't a socialist and she didn't dare to deregulate London.
It has come out tonight he has ordered a review into the Public Transport including delays yet more scrapping including the Tram to Brierley Hill (Merry Hill is in Brierley Hill) Aldridge could be scrapped and the Camp Hill Line. Hopefully he realises he doesn't need to Franchise the buses and just scrap all Tram extensions do we really need the Tram to the Birmingham Airport when Sprint and oh let's not forget the Train going there to link up with HS2 (If that ever happens). Do we need the Tram down the Hagley Road. Guided Busway to Merry Hill or improve the roads.
Hopefully this means Buses do not to be Franchised. Can NX do anything and even Diamond to stop the Franchising ie affects income, affects there Profits and could also affect Route reliability and even sustainability. Ie I mentioned it in the past the evening 37 from Willenhall to Walsall or the 310 or other routes that are possibly vital to the public.
We do not need Franchising unless NX reliability falls of a cliff or gets into Finacial trouble so then falls under Public Ownership or sold off its assets to say Go Ahead. All we need to do is protect tendered Bus routes, stop building pointless Tram extensions and improve the infrastructure for buses to better
Sad times, they are scrapping paragraphs too
:cool:
Mayor's plans to bring West Midland buses under public control raises concerns
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/mayors-plans-bring-west-midland-29644038
Quote from: Stu on July 30, 2024, 07:11:33 PM:cool:
Mayor's plans to bring West Midland buses under public control raises concerns
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/mayors-plans-bring-west-midland-29644038
More clickbait nonsense from the local rag.
Quote from: Straightlines on July 30, 2024, 08:21:39 PMMore clickbait nonsense from the local rag.
I take it you didn't actually read the article then? :rolleyes:
Quote from: Stu on July 30, 2024, 08:22:52 PMI take it you didn't actually read the article then? :rolleyes:
I would say he didn't!
The articles content has appeared elsewhere quite widely.
Quote from: Straightlines on July 30, 2024, 08:21:39 PMMore clickbait nonsense from the local rag.
No its completely true. The new mayor pledged this in his election manifesto. I believe that national government also want to introduce franchising across the country.
I think franchising could work, it is starting to work in Manchester, I unlike many on here do not like NXWM. I understand that footfall on many routes is down but don't like how they blackmail the mayor into giving them money.
I know a few people who used the Commuter Services into London they where axed with hardly any notice, a least one had to give up there job in London, the difference between the prices of a coach & train ticket was so great, it meant they where spending nearly as much on travel as they where earning. Not a good way to treat anyone.
Quote from: woody38 on July 31, 2024, 08:32:17 AMI think franchising could work, it is starting to work in Manchester, I unlike many on here do not like NXWM. I understand that footfall on many routes is down but don't like how they blackmail the mayor into giving them money.
I know a few people who used the Commuter Services into London they where axed with hardly any notice, a least one had to give up there job in London, the difference between the prices of a coach & train ticket was so great, it meant they where spending nearly as much on travel as they where earning. Not a good way to treat anyone.
There's no 'blackmailing for money' NXWM hasn't made a profit for a few years, so the money all goes towards keeping the services running. It's nice how you also expect them to run the commuter services at a loss. It's noticeable no other coach company has tried to take the Medway services on which tells you they were completely unsustainable
Quote from: woody38 on July 31, 2024, 08:32:17 AMI think franchising could work, it is starting to work in Manchester, I unlike many on here do not like NXWM. I understand that footfall on many routes is down but don't like how they blackmail the mayor into giving them money.
I know a few people who used the Commuter Services into London they where axed with hardly any notice, a least one had to give up there job in London, the difference between the prices of a coach & train ticket was so great, it meant they where spending nearly as much on travel as they where earning. Not a good way to treat anyone.
Also it wasn't that long ago Diamond were threatening to withdraw all their West Midlands commercial services as they were all losing money. Join up the dots Woody and you see that most commercial routes now are not profit making.
Now do some maths: if currently all these routes are loss making, if franchising was to come in then the companies running them would expect perhaps a 4-5% profit on running them. Therefore, what ever % monetary loss those routes currently have has to then have this additional 4-5% added to the cost to make it the franchise package attractive to companies. And the mayor seems to think he would increase frequencies on these routes too adding even more costs. It's complete madness but, as usual, it's other people's money so Labour won't care.
So you are probably talking at least a 10% or more increase in costs to the tax payer to fund this franchising. Of course, plonkers like Burnham, or the Labour Party as a whole, will never admit to this reality that franchising will actually increase costs to tax payers for pretty much the same service we have now.
And if they do then like any party coming into office, they will simply blame the last government/mayor.
Quote from: Rachvince53 on July 31, 2024, 07:36:28 AMNo its completely true. The new mayor pledged this in his election manifesto. I believe that national government also want to introduce franchising across the country.
You didn't read the article either then! :rolleyes:
I wish people would just look beyond the headline and actually read the article, then you'll see why I shared it...
Quote from: Steve3229vp on July 30, 2024, 10:46:56 PMI would say he didn't!
The articles content has appeared elsewhere quite widely.
Has it though?
Will franchising really work? I think not. The 42, 43, 31 & 32 used to be joint operations. How long did that last? Not very long
QuoteWill franchising really work? I think not. The 42, 43, 31 & 32 used to be joint operations. How long did that last? Not very long
That technically wasn't franchising as it was an agreement between Diamond, NX and TfWM
Quote from: Jay71 on July 31, 2024, 08:44:56 PMWill franchising really work? I think not. The 42, 43, 31 & 32 used to be joint operations. How long did that last? Not very long
31 and 32 still are
Quote from: Jay71 on July 31, 2024, 08:44:56 PMWill franchising really work? I think not. The 42, 43, 31 & 32 used to be joint operations. How long did that last? Not very long
It still is!
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/uyh1jA5iduqc7GUC/
More about the future of the West Midlands bus network.
Mayor apparently seems to think there isn't any Night buses in the West Midlands hmm NX running to 11PM Midnight or even 2/3AM isn't a night Bus then forgetting the 24hr X1, 97, he says he wants to introduce them. If this for areas like Cannock, Shropshire or even some of the smaller areas outside of the major towns and cities, I don't think they are going to work because they are not economically viable no point running a bus with just the driver if the company can't pay the driver's or the Diesel. Most NX Services finish at 11/Midnight and usually have 1 to 2 people on on a Weekday. Have seen the last 37 terminate at Darlaston before and about 5 to 6 people got off maybe more. The 34 passing it had about 2 people on and the 79 that came in had about 4 people on with 2 getting of at Darlaston. Unless I have understood this wrong we have Night services maybe not London level but when I tell people in the sticks our last bus is at Midnight or Quarter past 11 they get jealous as there Last Bus is at 5 or 6PM
Quote from: BlackCountryBusSpotter on October 23, 2024, 10:24:38 AMMayor apparently seems to think there isn't any Night buses in the West Midlands hmm NX running to 11PM Midnight or even 2/3AM isn't a night Bus then forgetting the 24hr X1, 97, he says he wants to introduce them. If this for areas like Cannock, Shropshire or even some of the smaller areas outside of the major towns and cities, I don't think they are going to work because they are not economically viable no point running a bus with just the driver if the company can't pay the driver's or the Diesel. Most NX Services finish at 11/Midnight and usually have 1 to 2 people on on a Weekday. Have seen the last 37 terminate at Darlaston before and about 5 to 6 people got off maybe more. The 34 passing it had about 2 people on and the 79 that came in had about 4 people on with 2 getting of at Darlaston. Unless I have understood this wrong we have Night services maybe not London level but when I tell people in the sticks our last bus is at Midnight or Quarter past 11 they get jealous as there Last Bus is at 5 or 6PM
I believe the 74 went 24hrs at one point in it's recent history.
Quote from: wembley86 on October 23, 2024, 01:49:46 PMI believe the 74 went 24hrs at one point in it's recent history.
50 too
Quote from: wembley86 on October 23, 2024, 01:49:46 PMI believe the 74 went 24hrs at one point in it's recent history.
Quote from: jasmine on October 23, 2024, 05:42:11 PM50 too
There were a small number of services where NX added 'night journeys' to make them virtually 24hr - the 61 or 63 also springs to mind.
To the best of my knowledge, the only one that still remains is the X1, with its night shorts to the Airport.
As far as I am aware, these were all provided commercially by NX, but were withdrawn due to low passenger usage making them commercially unviable.
While some people do benefit from night journeys, clearly there just isn't the demand for them, unlike somewhere like London. There's still this perception that travelling on buses is 'dangerous', hence why so many people would rather pay for a taxi.
If the mayor wants to introduce night buses, it is going to come at a huge cost to the taxpayer, as these services will have to be subsidised, and it makes little sense to throw money at operators to run buses around empty during the dead of night.
Quote from: Stu on October 23, 2024, 06:51:14 PMThere were a small number of services where NX added 'night journeys' to make them virtually 24hr - the 61 or 63 also springs to mind.
To the best of my knowledge, the only one that still remains is the X1, with its night shorts to the Airport.
As far as I am aware, these were all provided commercially by NX, but were withdrawn due to low passenger usage making them commercially unviable.
While some people do benefit from night journeys, clearly there just isn't the demand for them, unlike somewhere like London. There's still this perception that travelling on buses is 'dangerous', hence why so many people would rather pay for a taxi.
If the mayor wants to introduce night buses, it is going to come at a huge cost to the taxpayer, as these services will have to be subsidised, and it makes little sense to throw money at operators to run buses around empty during the dead of night.
It also areas and factors outside of the Buses, for example If I was to go to Brum for a night out I could get the 51 at 1AM from Brum and if I wanted for a taxi or even if the 34 ran at 1.30 Walsall is a dump the local delinquents are out from 5/6PM even at the end of the Evening Peak to that time, who knows what there carrying, what there doing, I wouldn't feel safe, I would rather get a cab back from say Broad Street to my Front Door so the only time I have to go outside is the Venue and my house. I wake up on my own bed, safely in the morning rather than a Hospital bed with Stab wounds or attack wounds, you only have to look at what happened at Bescot the other day the women was waiting for a train and has now passed away
Quote from: Stu on October 23, 2024, 06:51:14 PMTo the best of my knowledge, the only one that still remains is the X1, with its night shorts to the Airport.
The 63 still has night shorts to Rubery Flyover.
Quote from: TGZac on October 23, 2024, 09:06:40 PMThe 63 still has night shorts to Rubery Flyover.
The 63, 97A and X1 are the services remaining with the all night services.
The 50 and 74 also had them for several years.
I'm pretty sure they was considering to give the 9, 51 and 87 all night services but was dropped.
Quote from: Stu on October 23, 2024, 06:51:14 PMThere were a small number of services where NX added 'night journeys' to make them virtually 24hr - the 61 or 63 also springs to mind.
To the best of my knowledge, the only one that still remains is the X1, with its night shorts to the Airport.
Not just NX ran but Diamond still run the night service on the 96
Quote from: TGZac on October 23, 2024, 09:06:40 PMThe 63 still has night shorts to Rubery Flyover.
Although it's not a full 24/7 service has an hour gap 5 days a week.
Quote from: Jack on October 23, 2024, 09:09:05 PM97A
I'd say the 97A is also not a fully 24/7 service as it has a slight gap in it now.
Quote from: Jack on October 23, 2024, 09:09:05 PMThe 63, 97A and X1 are the services remaining with the all night services.
The 50 and 74 also had them for several years.
I'm pretty sure they was considering to give the 9, 51 and 87 all night services but was dropped.
The 74 still runs in the very early hours on Saturday and Sunday mornings.
I think the 9 like the 74, had very early journeys on Saturday and Sunday mornings as well at one point, but these ceased a few years ago now.
I'd guess as well there probably isn't a great amount of demand for buses to run at that time of day on most services.
I think the 74 has an hour gap in it maybe so last bus is at 2AM and then resumes at 3AM the Branding used to say it is a 24hr service, the 97 did to.
There were also night services in Wolverhampton at one time I believe.
Quote from: Rachvince53 on October 24, 2024, 11:38:12 AMThere were also night services in Wolverhampton at one time I believe.
79 I think was one remember about 8-9 years ago the last bus into Darlo was about half one back to Wolvo and about 1AM to West Bromwich with the first bus being at 4. The 79 now finishes at Midnight from West Bromwich, The 529, 126 and maybe the 1 255/256 were possibly the other ones, the 40 also ran quite late about 10 years ago
Quote from: Stu on October 23, 2024, 06:51:14 PMIf the mayor wants to introduce night buses, it is going to come at a huge cost to the taxpayer, as these services will have to be subsidised, and it makes little sense to throw money at operators to run buses around empty during the dead of night.
Not forgetting paying the drivers extra for working unsocial hours too.
Quote from: Rachvince53 on October 24, 2024, 11:38:12 AMThere were also night services in Wolverhampton at one time I believe.
901-904 were the Wolverhampton night buses. Not too sure when they started, but they ended around early 2006.
Until roughly the same era (2005-2008), Birmingham still had a not insubstantial night network too. Last ones were gone by around 2008 though.
WB ran night services in the late 80s, 78N Wolverhampton to Birmingham, 529N and 404N which interworked.
The mayor commented that NX receives £50 million a year in subsidies in his comments about night buses not being "economically viable".
He always seems to criticise NX as if they're the only operator in the West Midlands.
Surely a similar amount or more will need to be paid under franchising? Does he think companies will run services for free?
Quote from: suavegarv on October 24, 2024, 06:36:31 PMThe mayor commented that NX receives £50 million a year in subsidies in his comments about night buses not being "economically viable".
He always seems to criticise NX as if they're the only operator in the West Midlands.
Surely a similar amount or more will need to be paid under franchising? Does he think companies will run services for free?
They have over 95% of market share - who do you want him to criticise, Kev's!?
Quote from: suavegarv on October 24, 2024, 06:36:31 PMThe mayor commented that NX receives £50 million a year in subsidies in his comments about night buses not being "economically viable".
He always seems to criticise NX as if they're the only operator in the West Midlands.
Surely a similar amount or more will need to be paid under franchising? Does he think companies will run services for free?
Yes, I've seen a similar figure being quoted in other press articles on bus franchising.
I'd like to see the mayor break down this figure, as I believe as well as what NX get paid to run contracted tenders, the amount also includes other sums awarded to TfWM by the UK government, BSOG, BSIP, etc, which would also be paid to other operators, not just NX, in order to keep bus services operating.
You will probably find this £50m figure - wherever it has come from - is what TfWM pay out to ALL bus operators, not just NX.
This isn't the first time that Labour people have been spouting out figures that were inaccurate, I recall some furore about claims of how many services had been 'axed' in the West Midlands, when in reality while some services had been combined into others, little mileage had actually been lost.
And then of course during the NX strikes you had Sharon Graham of Unite and her wildly exaggerated figures of 'billions of pounds of revenue and millions of pounds of profit' as she didn't understand the difference between the Mobico Group and it's relatively little subsidiary NX Bus.
Quote from: BlackCountryBusSpotter on October 23, 2024, 10:24:38 AMMayor apparently seems to think there isn't any Night buses in the West Midlands hmm NX running to 11PM Midnight or even 2/3AM isn't a night Bus then forgetting the 24hr X1, 97, he says he wants to introduce them. If this for areas like Cannock, Shropshire or even some of the smaller areas outside of the major towns and cities, I don't think they are going to work because they are not economically viable no point running a bus with just the driver if the company can't pay the driver's or the Diesel. Most NX Services finish at 11/Midnight and usually have 1 to 2 people on on a Weekday. Have seen the last 37 terminate at Darlaston before and about 5 to 6 people got off maybe more. The 34 passing it had about 2 people on and the 79 that came in had about 4 people on with 2 getting of at Darlaston. Unless I have understood this wrong we have Night services maybe not London level but when I tell people in the sticks our last bus is at Midnight or Quarter past 11 they get jealous as there Last Bus is at 5 or 6PM
11 or 12 isn't particularly late for such a major area - Nottingham and Leicester have regular buses just as late.
A lot of the higher frequency Birmingham routes run commercially 21 hours a day, with the first bus inbound at around 4am and the last bus outbound at around 1am.
Quote from: Straightlines on October 24, 2024, 07:07:36 PMThey have over 95% of market share - who do you want him to criticise, Kev's!?
Commercial services yes but NX certainly don't run anywhere near that % of fully subsidised routes - look at the routes Diamond run in the West Mids - far more subsidised routes than commercial ones.
This new mayor is a clueless buffoon and is just repeating what that idiot Burnham said about First and Stagecoach in Manchester. It will take a few years until the mess that will be the 'Bee Network' is fully costed and only then will people realise that they have been absolutely shafted.
Always easy for politicians to blame big companies as they are always seen as the 'bad guys' yet any one in this industry with half a brain can see that what this mayor spouts is a load of unrealistic rubbish.
Quote from: j789 on October 24, 2024, 11:45:05 PMCommercial services yes but NX certainly don't run anywhere near that % of fully subsidised routes - look at the routes Diamond run in the West Mids - far more subsidised routes than commercial ones.
This new mayor is a clueless buffoon and is just repeating what that idiot Burnham said about First and Stagecoach in Manchester. It will take a few years until the mess that will be the 'Bee Network' is fully costed and only then will people realise that they have been absolutely shafted.
Always easy for politicians to blame big companies as they are always seen as the 'bad guys' yet any one in this industry with half a brain can see that what this mayor spouts is a load of unrealistic rubbish.
I said market share which anyone with half a brain would understand encompasses the overall market.
NXWM receive a lot more "subsidy" these days than perhaps meets the eye and I understand will require more to maintain the existing network moving forward.
Quote from: Straightlines on October 25, 2024, 12:15:57 AMI said market share which anyone with half a brain would understand encompasses the overall market.
NXWM receive a lot more "subsidy" these days than perhaps meets the eye and I understand will require more to maintain the existing network moving forward.
A lot of that coming from the £2 fare which pretty much all operators are currently claiming but of course NX are the ones criticised.
If you bother to look at the passenger growth figures post- COVID you will see that the £2 fare has had a massively positive impact in the West Midlands clawing back some of the lost passengers due to the pandemic. This 'subsidy' has had a very positive impact so criticising companies for this subsidy is absolutely half brained! More people using the bus is a good thing! No doubt Mayor Rich will happily take the positive headlines for passenger growth in the West Mids but throws all 'subsidy' into one bracket to beat NX with. Does the mayor not realise that a franchise system will also not entail massive subsidy???????? He conveniently forgets to mention this in his rants of course.
We've just got the farm foods version of Burnham as Mayor with a smaller potential chequebook and clearly zero clue of how to operate a transport network.
As my Dad Said Privatisation might actually be a bad thing as if services aren't cost effective so I'll take the 37 by me of an evening or even the 34 they usually get scrapped so you lose connections, investment will happen at once then not again as when they run out of money they don't have funds unlike NX to buy new buses.
Other problems are we have loads of Independent Operators Banga, Chaserider, Let's Go, Kev's, Select to name a few who operate serviced in the case of Kev's, Select and Chaserider who operate mostly out the West Midlands only there 70, 71, 67, 876, 878 operate into the Midlands and the Evening 5/5A do they have to meet our Franchising requirements. My dad is currently in Cheadle today On a Work Meeting, I'll ask him how much a bus ticket was over there it might be £2 but If he got a daysaver I'll ask hoe much it was. But I've noticed Stagecoach local services there aren't Franchised up and neither is Nexus bus. I did however notice the Nexus Buses operated late at night but were Mellors, is that possibly what might have to happen here. I consider 11 or 12 late running for local buses as in many places only the intercity buses run that late
I consider it impressive if I did a shift until 11:50 in the evening in West Bromwich that I could still get home, many buses across the country Don't run that late. I think people didn't want Mr Street as they didn't want the Tories, I didn't want him as to me we Don't need the Trams going everywhere or Crosscity Buses I'm sure Druids Heath Passengers don't Care about Dudley Passengers and vice Versa I didn't want Sprint either. But I didn't want Labour either as this would happen.
What we ideally need is the Tram extensions to be scrapped, Sprint to and the Crosscity network more focus put onto our existing transport, if Buses are important Roads put more Bus Priorities in and stop doing silly pointless Roadworks that make buses either miss out Stops or run in convoys and help operators do more to promote it.
The 96 uses mostly mellors for there night service
If the passenger numbers aren't that high it makes sense to run night services with a Mellor, would imagine the fuel costs would be lower
Quote from: Lukeee on October 25, 2024, 12:57:55 PMIf the passenger numbers aren't that high it makes sense to run night services with a Mellor, would imagine the fuel costs would be lower
No doubt the smaller buses would be cheaper on fuel but that isn't the major cost associated with night services - it's manpower.
Not only do you have to pay the driver (most likely a higher rate of pay than day work too) you also need to have garage staff available for breakdowns, etc. These staff costs soon add up as it doesn't matter whether you can run a night service with one vehicle or 5, the garage staff stool need to be available so the cost is the same.
Ironically if you could scale up the number of night services being run at each garage, the garage staff costs would reduce as a % of overall expenditure as they would be spread out over more services.
As such, I think for Birmingham night services to work effectively they need to be run from one garage no matter what the route to minimise these additional garage costs. Having one or two routes run from different garages is not cost efficient.
Areas like Solihull/Coventry have no reason to have a night bus. Birmingham yes, but they need to make sure people know about it and they use it so it doesn't get scrapped
To be honest, the current system is failing so why not give franchising a go, it may bring more competition into the network as now its just NX having a monopoly
The new Mayor Richard seems to be useless atm tho - just copying whatever Andy Burnham says and does. Seen Andy Street being interviewed & talking more about HS2 going to North compared to Richard
Quote from: LD713821 on October 25, 2024, 10:18:26 PMTo be honest, the current system is failing so why not give franchising a go, it may bring more competition into the network as now its just NX having a monopoly
In what way is it failing?
From my journeys on the 14, 94/95's nearly every day I can't see how it is?
Quote from: j789 on October 25, 2024, 04:57:08 PMNo doubt the smaller buses would be cheaper on fuel but that isn't the major cost associated with night services - it's manpower.
Not only do you have to pay the driver (most likely a higher rate of pay than day work too) you also need to have garage staff available for breakdowns, etc. These staff costs soon add up as it doesn't matter whether you can run a night service with one vehicle or 5, the garage staff stool need to be available so the cost is the same.
Ironically if you could scale up the number of night services being run at each garage, the garage staff costs would reduce as a % of overall expenditure as they would be spread out over more services.
As such, I think for Birmingham night services to work effectively they need to be run from one garage no matter what the route to minimise these additional garage costs. Having one or two routes run from different garages is not cost efficient.
That would be the most cost effective way to run them all from one garage. However I feel like night services struggle for passengers as more and more people seem to use taxi services such as uber (If travelling in a group this can work out cheaper).
They should run it how Dublin run their night buses.
All leave at the same time on the hour and do the route one way to the end running dead back to the city afterwards.
They all have slight variations to their normal route sometimes going further or a different way.
Quote from: 2206 on October 26, 2024, 12:33:49 AMIn what way is it failing?
From my journeys on the 14, 94/95's nearly every day I can't see how it is?
You should try the Stratford Rd 6 on weekdays where there is many missing buses so you have to wait over 20 minutes on a 'high frequency' road for an overcrowded bus. I know there is similar problems like that in Coventry .
Single tickets here are about to go up to £2.90 for Adults :lipsrsealed: if Labour cancel the £2 Cap (which is looking likely) at the start of 2025 and that will be embarrassing as its £1.75 in London and £2.00 in Manchester (correct me if I'm wrong but I think that's the
uncapped price in Manchester for Bee Network)
But NX has improved Warwick Rd this year though - they finally put DDs on it which has reduced overcrowding, other issues for that are mostly out of their control like traffic
Quote from: LD713821 on October 26, 2024, 02:22:17 PMYou should try the Stratford Rd 6 on weekdays where there is many missing buses so you have to wait over 20 minutes on a 'high frequency' road for an overcrowded bus. I know there is similar problems like that in Coventry .
It is very rare there's any 'missing' buses on the Stratford Road, just late running ones.
Quote from: LD713821 on October 26, 2024, 02:22:17 PMYou should try the Stratford Rd 6 on weekdays where there is many missing buses so you have to wait over 20 minutes on a 'high frequency' road for an overcrowded bus. I know there is similar problems like that in Coventry .
But NX has improved Warwick Rd this year though - they finally put DDs on it which has reduced overcrowding, other issues for that are mostly out of their control like traffic
The buses on the 6 aren't 'missing' - the gaps that appear in service are due to buses being delayed because of traffic, notoriously through Shirley and Sparkhill, again that's mainly out of NX's control.
Buses that arrive late into Birmingham will be late leaving towards Solihull, and vice-versa.
Part of the reason they won't work as I already said is due to Crime off buses people of a young age who these services would be targeted at wouldn't feel safe at night walking through certain areas. I could see it being that the 51 gets me to Walsall at half one and if they chose to run a 34 or 37 short to Darlaston at Two Am I still have half an hour to wait in Walsall nothing is open, the nearest pub is the Black Country Arms or Red Lion (Can be dodgy) the BCA is the safest bet but that puts you in parts of the town that are dodgy, usually I would walk until I had 5 minutes to wait but doing that means Walking through Pleck again I Don't fancy it. What they need to do is maybe make sure there are Police/BTP/NX/TFWM Staff around montionoring ASB and Crime. It's alright saying the last 37 can run to Willenhall at 3AM but as we get into the Half Term People in Churchill Ave can't use it as kids are likely to have smashed the bus up.
Darlaston football club has been burgled twice in the last two weeks. If Buses ran later Kids would wait later to attack them. I couldn't see Late night 29's working due to the ASB (Although it seems to be Beechdale and Bentley they are attacking the buses recently) you need people to feel safe waiting for the late night buses even If they know exist would they wait for them when they know it isn't safe.
Me and my family Walked back through Birmingham on a Sunday about 2-4PM after getting of a coach at Digbeth we had Beggars and people acting dodgy from Moor Street to Bull Street Tram stop. When we got to Wednesbury we got a cab. So put that on a Friday/Saturday/Sunday Morning and things would be worse
There can be so many ways this franchising plan could go.
Who remembers the old Sandwell and Dudley bus review Centro did some years back or Wil it be done when tenders are up for renewal.
And here we go already, "bus fares can be cheaper when they are franchised":
Mayor renews calls for public control of West Midlands buses as £2 cap is scrappedhttps://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/mayor-renews-calls-public-control-30259342
QuoteMr Parker said both Greater Manchester and London are able to keep bus fares low because they have adopted a bus franchising model - a system he is keen to implement in this region.
What he fails to point out though is that fares are able to be capped in both those areas because they are both subsidised by local taxpayers, or through government funding.
Bus services cost money to run, and the revenue that comes from paying passengers needs to at least cover those operating costs, otherwise the service is 'not economically viable'.
This is the difference between privately operated commercial services, and publicly funded 'social' services.
Mr Parker seems to object to the amount of subsidy that NX is receiving via TfWM to maintain the current bus network as it is based on the costs to operate it, yet is under some delusion that under a franchised model, bus fares can be kept low without its operators making huge losses.
We can't have it all. How would YOU feel if your council tax bill increased by £700 a year, but you were then able to enjoy free bus travel?
Everything comes at a cost! Either directly, or indirectly.
Have the total and ongoing costs of franchising in Manchester been revealed?
Quote from: suavegarv on October 31, 2024, 05:23:17 PMHave the total and ongoing costs of franchising in Manchester been revealed?
The other pertinent question to be answered is has franchising bus services in Manchester made them more reliable?
Quote from: Stu on October 31, 2024, 05:30:06 PMThe other pertinent question to be answered is has franchising bus services in Manchester made them more reliable?
As someone who has multiple friends from different areas of Greater Manchester, I can confirm the answer to this is no
I went through Manchester (on my way to Glasgow) on Tuesday. I barely saw any of the yellow buses. Have they not franchised the area that covers the city centre/airport yet?
Quote from: ellspurs on October 31, 2024, 10:00:57 PMI went through Manchester (on my way to Glasgow) on Tuesday. I barely saw any of the yellow buses. Have they not franchised the area that covers the city centre/airport yet?
The south of Greater Manchester (south of the city) is set to be franchised in early 2025 - that includes the airport area
Ah, okay. That would explain the lack of yellow buses. Thank you.
Quote from: B7RLE on October 31, 2024, 05:32:19 PMAs someone who has multiple friends from different areas of Greater Manchester, I can confirm the answer to this is no
It would be better if you went there and tested the services yourself before saying that.
Quote from: frostjay974 on November 11, 2024, 03:07:21 PMIt would be better if you went there and tested the services yourself before saying that.
The biggest problem in Manchester is traffic seems even worse than Birmingham. If I go up there in the morning peak looking for specific buses to photo most of them seem to arrive in Central Manchester 20-30 minutes late. Franchising does nothing to help that. It seems Manchester is even more in need of Bus Priority than Birmingham is.
Quote from: B7RLE on October 31, 2024, 10:41:20 PMThe south of Greater Manchester (south of the city) is set to be franchised in early 2025 - that includes the airport area
Quote from: ellspurs on October 31, 2024, 10:00:57 PMI went through Manchester (on my way to Glasgow) on Tuesday. I barely saw any of the yellow buses. Have they not franchised the area that covers the city centre/airport yet?
Yes. The franchises have gone to Diamond North West and Metroline. The yellow buses for Metroline are currently in store, some in Cardiff I understand.
Quote from: frostjay974 on November 11, 2024, 03:07:21 PMIt would be better if you went there and tested the services yourself before saying that.
I hear everyday about struggles with Bee Network services, across a wide range of them. I have also been up there once and I witnessed a convoy of vehicles on the 135, 59 and 409. 3 of the 6 routes that I rode on that day.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c86qy500545o
More info about moneys being distributed across the country for bus networks.
TfWM has published documents about it, found some intreseting stuff
West Midlands Bus Network will be fully implemented by 2029 by which time there will be a vehicle requirement of 1177 vehicles to operate the West Midlands Bus Network
New Birmingham East depot to replace BC
TransportUK/GoAhead/Transdev/Midland Red/Rotola/NX was contacted for some questionnaire and NX got a "seperate meeting"
Seperated into nine zones, Wolverhmapton, walsall, west brom, dudley, birmingham north, birmingham SW, birmingham east, birmingham SE / Solihull, Coventry
https://www.tfwm.org.uk/media/k1ilbwhq/assessment-of-the-proposed-franchising-scheme-for-west-midlands-buses.pdf
(https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/lo2lfDN03hNj7Vh5gxD9Qk9vaF1OhXUdKxm1ihMq8o0/https/pbs.twimg.com/media/Ggj9etWWUAAAZRK.jpg%3Alarge?format=webp&width=798&height=199)
Right
Quote from: LD713821 on January 05, 2025, 10:13:39 PM(https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/lo2lfDN03hNj7Vh5gxD9Qk9vaF1OhXUdKxm1ihMq8o0/https/pbs.twimg.com/media/Ggj9etWWUAAAZRK.jpg%3Alarge?format=webp&width=798&height=199)
Right
They will just add it to everyone's tax bill
Quote from: LD713821 on January 05, 2025, 09:51:46 PMTfWM has published documents about it, found some intreseting stuff
West Midlands Bus Network will be fully implemented by 2029 by which time there will be a vehicle requirement of 1177 vehicles to operate the West Midlands Bus Network
New Birmingham East depot to replace BC
TransportUK/GoAhead/Transdev/Midland Red/Rotola/NX was contacted for some questionnaire and NX got a "seperate meeting"
Seperated into nine zones, Wolverhmapton, walsall, west brom, dudley, birmingham north, birmingham SW, birmingham east, birmingham SE / Solihull, Coventry
https://www.tfwm.org.uk/media/k1ilbwhq/assessment-of-the-proposed-franchising-scheme-for-west-midlands-buses.pdf
more summary for those who dont want to read a whole 600 page doc.
Phase 1 - Coventry, Walsall & Birmingham North
Procurement - Starting Q2 2026
Mobilisation - Starting Q1 2027
Phase 2 - Black Country Areas
Procurement - Starting Q2 2027
Mobilisation - Starting Q1 2028
Phase 3 - South Birmingham & Solihull
Procurement -Starting Q2 2028
Mobilisation - Starting Q1 2029
Fleet and depot acquisition to start Q2 this year.
NX wolves,PB & Diamond tividale to be bought. new depot built in oldbury and new depot to replace BC or re-opening of the old Lea Hall depot.
Quote from: LD713821 on January 05, 2025, 09:51:46 PMTfWM has published documents about it, found some intreseting stuff
West Midlands Bus Network will be fully implemented by 2029 by which time there will be a vehicle requirement of 1177 vehicles to operate the West Midlands Bus Network
New Birmingham East depot to replace BC
TransportUK/GoAhead/Transdev/Midland Red/Rotola/NX was contacted for some questionnaire and NX got a "seperate meeting"
Seperated into nine zones, Wolverhmapton, walsall, west brom, dudley, birmingham north, birmingham SW, birmingham east, birmingham SE / Solihull, Coventry
https://www.tfwm.org.uk/media/k1ilbwhq/assessment-of-the-proposed-franchising-scheme-for-west-midlands-buses.pdf
If the new WM Bus Network will only require 1177 vehicles, everyone best be prepared for large scale service cuts.
NX's fleet alone is currently circa 1420, Rotala circa 170 in WM + the other independents.
2.15 - they want to save costs on the following corridors:
50 Birmingham Maypole
X3/X4/X5 & 110 Birmingham Sutton Coldfield
Commerical network doesn't look so bad now :lipsrsealed:
Lets just pray the WM isnt bankrupt soon like Birmingham
Quote from: LD713821 on January 06, 2025, 01:19:55 AMCommerical network doesn't look so bad now :lipsrsealed:
Lets just pray the WM isnt bankrupt soon like Birmingham
I still don't think franchising will work in this city, seeming as its been built on competition the whole time. I remember when NX did 15 buses, Diamond 6, TGB 6 all on the 50 route.
Quote from: winston on January 06, 2025, 12:54:37 AMIf the new WM Bus Network will only require 1177 vehicles, everyone best be prepared for large scale service cuts.
NX's fleet alone is currently circa 1420, Rotala circa 170 in WM + the other independents.
Having searched the document I found reference to 1177 on page 281 but the figures don't match the graph they are trying to explain, it looks like c.1,500 in 2029 falling to 1,177 by 2041.
Quote from: LD713821 on January 06, 2025, 01:14:47 AM2.15 - they want to save costs on the following corridors:
50 Birmingham Maypole
X3/X4/X5 & 110 Birmingham Sutton Coldfield
So that's reducing the Frequency, the 50 is the busiest but Route in Europe,
So if they reduce that then what are gonna do with routes in the Black Country
Quote from: cardew on January 06, 2025, 07:41:14 AMHaving searched the document I found reference to 1177 on page 281 but the figures don't match the graph they are trying to explain, it looks like c.1,500 in 2029 falling to 1,177 by 2041.
1500 in 2029 is still Service Cuts, NX have 1420 Veichles might be less by then might be more, Diamond have over 100 that's at least 1500 odd plus independents or Diamond expanding say Diamond have 200 Buses by 2029 that's 1620 then all the independents have a total of say 200 veichles between them that's between depending 1750 and 1820 total veichles they are taking 230 or 320 veichles from that and the mayor seriously wants us to believe this is good get Andy Street back immediately, just Don't let him build anymore Trams
Quote from: EK40 on January 06, 2025, 12:32:47 AMmore summary for those who dont want to read a whole 600 page doc.
Phase 1 - Coventry, Walsall & Birmingham North
Procurement - Starting Q2 2026
Mobilisation - Starting Q1 2027
Phase 2 - Black Country Areas
Procurement - Starting Q2 2027
Mobilisation - Starting Q1 2028
Phase 3 - South Birmingham & Solihull
Procurement -Starting Q2 2028
Mobilisation - Starting Q1 2029
Fleet and depot acquisition to start Q2 this year.
NX wolves,PB & Diamond tividale to be bought. new depot built in oldbury and new depot to replace BC or re-opening of the old Lea Hall depot.
Without wishing to read through the entire document, is there any mention of a new depot for the services covering south west Birmingham? A new depot in east Birmingham or the re-opening of Lea Hall would only cover part of the services BC operates.
The consultation is live. I have had my say - the confirmation email went to my spam folder.
https://www.tfwm.org.uk/consultations/bus-reform/
Quote from: Mike K on January 06, 2025, 11:50:57 AMWithout wishing to read through the entire document, is there any mention of a new depot for the services covering south west Birmingham? A new depot in east Birmingham or the re-opening of Lea Hall would only cover part of the services BC operates.
it doesnt, the only depot its counting for south birmingham is YW. AG is for solihull and BC is for east. albeit it does say that the current YW is "not ideal" and they should consider a new site.
Quote from: EK40 on January 06, 2025, 12:24:22 PMit doesnt, the only depot its counting for south birmingham is YW. AG is for solihull and BC is for east. albeit it does say that the current YW is "not ideal" and they should consider a new site.
Is YW being 'not ideal' the reason why the electric chargers are in some kind of limbo or legal battle?
Strange that a second BC replacement site isn't in the proposal. Bristol Road, Pershore Road, Harborne and Uni corridors would all require a new base, and a possible replacement for YW would need to be substantial to accommodate current routes plus the BC South West Birmingham routes.
Quote from: Mike K on January 06, 2025, 05:30:08 PMStrange that a second BC replacement site isn't in the proposal. Bristol Road, Pershore Road, Harborne and Uni corridors would all require a new base, and a possible replacement for YW would need to be substantial to accommodate current routes plus the BC South West Birmingham routes.
It does mention site(s) plural for BC
Quote from: Mike K on January 06, 2025, 05:30:08 PMStrange that a second BC replacement site isn't in the proposal. Bristol Road, Pershore Road, Harborne and Uni corridors would all require a new base, and a possible replacement for YW would need to be substantial to accommodate current routes plus the BC South West Birmingham routes.
It also says that an alternative site instead of AG should be explored and that the location of PN is 'suboptimal'. The mention of Lea Hall is just bonkers for all sorts of reasons.
The report is an interesting read. A lot of it will go over most people's heads, including my own. But all that I could understand I found interesting. There's very much an anti NX tone to some of it. I agreed with some things brought up, didn't agree with others. It's not an easy thing to say yes or no to. It's a vast, vast undertaking!
One of the posts on the last page says "new depot to be built in Oldbury". Now would that be a replacement for Diamond's Tividale, or West Bromwich, or possibly the western part of BC?
Once the HS2 building work has died down there's going to be a plethora of space available in East Birmingham/North Solihull to plop a depot down.
Quote from: Gareth on January 06, 2025, 06:14:28 PM. There's very much an anti NX tone to some of it.
Especially section 3.51 on page 227. 2030 never struck me as realistic in the first place.
Quote from: Mike K on January 06, 2025, 05:30:08 PMStrange that a second BC replacement site isn't in the proposal. Bristol Road, Pershore Road, Harborne and Uni corridors would all require a new base, and a possible replacement for YW would need to be substantial to accommodate current routes plus the BC South West Birmingham routes.
I guess if the BC replacement in East Birmingham & WB replacement in Oldbury are large enough maybe we'll also see routes redistributed e.g 72 out of AG to free up space for other routes?
It appears they are intending to close West Bromwich and replacing it with a new depot in Oldbury?
The other thing if franchising does happen some garages in the Shire counties could possibly lose quite a bit of work. Such as Kidderminster which has some
work on the 25, 142 in the Dudley area I believe.
Quote from: cardew on January 06, 2025, 12:21:35 PMThe consultation is live. I have had my say - the confirmation email went to my spam folder.
https://www.tfwm.org.uk/consultations/bus-reform/
Thanks, someone else sent me the link earlier today as well.
There's an awful lot to read through before I go on and 'have my say' though.
It would seem that the WMCA has already made its mind up about the franchise option, so I suspect the survey for the public is weighted towards getting them to agree to it.
R. Parker was interviewed by BBC Midlands Today this evening at Pool Meadow inside a new SC single decker. Shame they did not use one of NXC's EVs as they have the largest fleet in Coventry.
Probably available on BBC IPlayer?
The promised selling feature seems to be better bus services but the case was not really that well presented and convincing to me?
Here is the WMCA accompanying PR brief.
https://www.wmca.org.uk/news/mayor-launches-consultation-on-taking-control-of-region-s-bus-services/
Quote from: BlackCountryBusSpotter on January 06, 2025, 10:56:42 AMSo that's reducing the Frequency, the 50 is the busiest but Route in Europe,
So if they reduce that then what are gonna do with routes in the Black Country
Yes from 16 buses per hour to 9
Every 10(DB) & 6(NX) to Every 6.66
Quote from: LD713821 on January 06, 2025, 07:59:06 PMYes from 16 buses per hour to 9
Every 10(DB) & 6(NX) to Every 6.66
So that's half and three quarters of the operators dropped so 5 for maybe Diamond and 4 for NX or 3 for NX and 6 for Diamond
Quote from: BlackCountryBusSpotter on January 06, 2025, 08:08:26 PMSo that's half and three quarters of the operators dropped so 5 for maybe Diamond and 4 for NX or 3 for NX and 6 for Diamond
If and once the route is franchised I don't think there will be 2 different operators on there anymore.
Yea it'll be ran by GoAhead.
This sums up the intellectual capacity of Mr Parker and Co suggesting cuts to high frequency routes would be cost savings. Does he not understand that currently both NX and Diamond operate on the route commercially so require no additional funding from the local authority for this high frequency save for concession pass holder redemption and similar factors (all these of course have been ongoing expenses for years Richard!)?
Remember those all over bus adverts WMPTE had prior to deregulation in the 1980s warning about what may happen if deregulation happened. Maybe Richard will follow in a similar vein with all over adverts outlining his vision for a 'better(!!!!)' network? I can imagine the slogans now: 'Do you want us to reduce frequencies and increase tax payer costs???? Of course you do as we know best!' 'Why wait 5 minutes for a bus when we can make you wait 15!' 'Remember it's your money so we do t care how we spend, sorry waste, it'! Etc etc etc.
Truly transport in the West Midlands is going to be truly f***ed with these clowns in charge, they will make Greater Manchester look like a well oiled machine in comparison! At least they will only lose a few million there.
The public consultation is not an easy thing to fill out, even the short questionnaire. I think maybe more simplified language would be better in getting more general public responses.
You'll need to read in depth the whole proposal (and understand it). This is certainly not for the armchair enthusiast who only worry about what gearbox noise they'll hear on which route.
Having briefly overviewed the 'executive summary' document, I have a couple of initial thoughts.
It seems that the WMCA is planning to buy depots and vehicles, to then lease back to operators to run buses under contract.
The WMCA is also intending to keep all revenue from fares, and contracts to run services will be set at fixed rates.
Now surely when bidding to run these contracts, private operators are going to want to make some kind of profit on their endeavour - after all, no point in getting involved if you can't make a profit, that's how businesses naturally work.
On the surface, it seems to me that this is actually going to cost the WMCA more to operate bus services than it does now.
I wonder why the WMCA never considered the option of forming its own company to run the bus services itself?
Quote from: Stu on January 06, 2025, 08:55:07 PMHaving briefly overviewed the 'executive summary' document, I have a couple of initial thoughts.
It seems that the WMCA is planning to buy depots and vehicles, to then lease back to operators to run buses under contract.
The WMCA is also intending to keep all revenue from fares, and contracts to run services will be set at fixed rates.
Now surely when bidding to run these contracts, private operators are going to want to make some kind of profit on their endeavour - after all, no point in getting involved if you can't make a profit, that's how businesses naturally work.
On the surface, it seems to me that this is actually going to cost the WMCA more to operate bus services than it does now.
I wonder why the WMCA never considered the option of forming its own company to run the bus services itself?
Your last point about the authority not running its own company instead of franchising is likely to avoid the huge pitfalls (and associated costs) of having to employ all the required staff for the company.
Those employees are currently in employed by a range of different companies so it would be very challenging to negotiate fair terms with all staff doing similar jobs as they likely have different conditions to each other in their current companies which would be a nightmare to sort out so people didn't feel short changed.
Throw in other costs like taking on pensions (and associated risks on those) and it quickly becomes apparent how much more appealing franchising is for the local authority compared with outright ownership of an operating company.
Perhaps another reason may also be that an outright ownership model may be open to more claims for compensation from current operators that franchising can mitigate to an extent.
Quote from: j789 on January 06, 2025, 08:35:15 PMThis sums up the intellectual capacity of Mr Parker and Co suggesting cuts to high frequency routes would be cost savings. Does he not understand that currently both NX and Diamond operate on the route commercially so require no additional funding from the local authority for this high frequency save for concession pass holder redemption and similar factors (all these of course have been ongoing expenses for years Richard!)?
Remember those all over bus adverts WMPTE had prior to deregulation in the 1980s warning about what may happen if deregulation happened. Maybe Richard will follow in a similar vein with all over adverts outlining his vision for a 'better(!!!!)' network? I can imagine the slogans now: 'Do you want us to reduce frequencies and increase tax payer costs???? Of course you do as we know best!' 'Why wait 5 minutes for a bus when we can make you wait 15!' 'Remember it's your money so we do t care how we spend, sorry waste, it'! Etc etc etc.
Truly transport in the West Midlands is going to be truly f***ed with these clowns in charge, they will make Greater Manchester look like a well oiled machine in comparison! At least they will only lose a few million there.
The Sutton Services are also commercial, most services are there is a small amount of Tendered Journeys and even Comercial routes during they day that are tendered those could be given to other operators, but Commercial services I Don't think NX or Diamond would be happy to lose a route like the 50 a route both Operators have spent good money on upgrading to High Spec Veichles at the time and Brand New to, the 19/69 plate Plattys for NX and the 20 plate StreetDecks although maybe not ordered new for the WM I think StreetLite's were for Diamond. What could happen with the 50 is the old WMB Joint corridor like the WA 31/32 and old WB 40 42/43/43A routes, where NX and Diamond run the 50 together
Quote from: BlackCountryBusSpotter on January 07, 2025, 01:46:11 PMThe Sutton Services are also commercial, most services are there is a small amount of Tendered Journeys and even Comercial routes during they day that are tendered those could be given to other operators, but Commercial services I Don't think NX or Diamond would be happy to lose a route like the 50 a route both Operators have spent good money on upgrading to High Spec Veichles at the time and Brand New to, the 19/69 plate Plattys for NX and the 20 plate StreetDecks although maybe not ordered new for the WM I think StreetLite's were for Diamond. What could happen with the 50 is the old WMB Joint corridor like the WA 31/32 and old WB 40 42/43/43A routes, where NX and Diamond run the 50 together
With franchising there will be no 'joint corridor' working on the 50 by different operators. There will be no competition on any route.
Quote from: BlackCountryBusSpotter on January 07, 2025, 01:46:11 PMI Don't think NX or Diamond would be happy to lose a route like the 50 a route both Operators have spent good money on upgrading to High Spec Veichles at the time and Brand New to, the 19/69 plate Plattys for NX and the 20 plate StreetDecks although maybe not ordered new for the WM I think StreetLite's were for Diamond. What could happen with the 50 is the old WMB Joint corridor like the WA 31/32 and old WB 40 42/43/43A routes, where NX and Diamond run the 50 together
I don't think you've grasped how franchising will work.
Bus operators will be paid a contracted rate to provide a service using a set number of vehicles - a fixed amount determined by operational costs plus a profit margin (no-one's going to get involved unless there's money to be made!).
As long as the service is provided in line with contractual terms, as TfWM would be collecting all the fare revenue, the buses could run around empty as far as the operators are concerned. There won't be any more commercial competition or joint partnerships.
Quote from: Gareth on January 06, 2025, 08:46:40 PMThe public consultation is not an easy thing to fill out, even the short questionnaire. I think maybe more simplified language would be better in getting more general public responses.
You'll need to read in depth the whole proposal (and understand it). This is certainly not for the armchair enthusiast who only worry about what gearbox noise they'll hear on which route.
I think this is part of the idea - either people will just be put off from participating and "having their say" due to the complexity of it, or the only people that complete the survey will be those who wholeheartedly agree, without even looking at any of the associated documents, because they've been sold an idea that buses will "be cheaper and more reliable".
Quote from: j789 on January 06, 2025, 09:05:00 PMYour last point about the authority not running its own company instead of franchising is likely to avoid the huge pitfalls (and associated costs) of having to employ all the required staff for the company.
Those employees are currently in employed by a range of different companies so it would be very challenging to negotiate fair terms with all staff doing similar jobs as they likely have different conditions to each other in their current companies which would be a nightmare to sort out so people didn't feel short changed.
Throw in other costs like taking on pensions (and associated risks on those) and it quickly becomes apparent how much more appealing franchising is for the local authority compared with outright ownership of an operating company.
Perhaps another reason may also be that an outright ownership model may be open to more claims for compensation from current operators that franchising can mitigate to an extent.
That is undoubtedly true, but those costs will be factored in by operators when it comes to bidding on contracts.
For many companies, it seems like the cheaper or 'easier' option to just outsource or contract-out work.
Whichever way you do it though, you still end up with problems with unions. Franchising won't stop workers from going on strike. Look at refuse collections in Birmingham and Sandwell - Birmingham operate their service themselves, while Sandwell use an external contractor (Serco). As soon as the unions dig their heels in, then the service crumbles.
Quote from: Stu on January 07, 2025, 08:00:09 PMI think this is part of the idea - either people will just be put off from participating and "having their say" due to the complexity of it, or the only people that complete the survey will be those who wholeheartedly agree, without even looking at any of the associated documents, because they've been sold an idea that buses will "be cheaper and more reliable".
That is undoubtedly true, but those costs will be factored in by operators when it comes to bidding on contracts.
For many companies, it seems like the cheaper or 'easier' option to just outsource or contract-out work.
Whichever way you do it though, you still end up with problems with unions. Franchising won't stop workers from going on strike. Look at refuse collections in Birmingham and Sandwell - Birmingham operate their service themselves, while Sandwell use an external contractor (Serco). As soon as the unions dig their heels in, then the service crumbles.
Since there is loads of routes being ran outside of depots outside of the West Midlands, wouldn't it of been easier to franchise the Routes like London and not the entire system?
It appears where Stagecoach Oldbury ran its operations from during the commonwealth games is the new proposed site to replace WB garage, Total park , Birmingham rd oldbury, it's on rightmove some very good aerial shots , ideal new depot site imo.
It will solve our lack of restroom facilities here in oldbury to.
Quote from: Gareth on January 07, 2025, 05:36:29 PMWith franchising there will be no 'joint corridor' working on the 50 by different operators. There will be no competition on any route.
No Under Andy Street he had the idea to merge two competitors on one route under the WMB Branding, the new Mayor could have done that/reinstated it on the 50 but no now both NX and Diamond will lose there commercial route the 50 rather than working together
Quote from: Stu on January 07, 2025, 07:02:25 PMI don't think you've grasped how franchising will work.
Bus operators will be paid a contracted rate to provide a service using a set number of vehicles - a fixed amount determined by operational costs plus a profit margin (no-one's going to get involved unless there's money to be made!).
As long as the service is provided in line with contractual terms, as TfWM would be collecting all the fare revenue, the buses could run around empty as far as the operators are concerned. There won't be any more commercial competition or joint partnerships.
I was saying the New Mayor could have done what Mr Street did before and Routes like the WA4, YW50 he could have branded them under the West Midlands Bus label and both operators accept each others tickets and have a joint return ticket and timetable much like the WA31/32 WB40 42/43/43A, he obviously doesn't like that/care and will now reduce the service and people won't have a choice of which operator to get as the Mayor will make NX and Diamond give it up unless one of them manages to be awarded the contract
Just reading through the "Assessment of the Proposed Franchising Scheme" document, and noticed that my website is listed as a reference!
https://www.tfwm.org.uk/media/k1ilbwhq/assessment-of-the-proposed-franchising-scheme-for-west-midlands-buses.pdf
See section 3.4.1!
:grin:
Screenshot 2025-01-15 at 20-35-55 West Midlands Bus Users on X @Kev_Bakeruk @TransportForWM @MayorWestMids @WestMids_CA You must either be a communist or unemployed because you don't seem to appreciate how commercial business works 🙄 _ X.png
In a nutshell, if you work for a company that doesn't make profit, then they can't afford to pay you and thus you lose your job.
In the case of the WMCA, if they don't make a profit through bus franchising, then they put up your council tax rates.
Quote from: Margaret ThatcherSocialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They always run out of other people's money.
Quote from: Stu on January 15, 2025, 08:45:42 PM:grin:
Screenshot 2025-01-15 at 20-35-55 West Midlands Bus Users on X @Kev_Bakeruk @TransportForWM @MayorWestMids @WestMids_CA You must either be a communist or unemployed because you don't seem to appreciate how commercial business works 🙄 _ X.png
In a nutshell, if you work for a company that doesn't make profit, then they can't afford to pay you and thus you lose your job.
In the case of the WMCA, if they don't make a profit through bus franchising, then they put up your council tax rates.
And of course National Express Coventry could still end up running his bus service!
Quote from: Tony on January 15, 2025, 08:49:46 PMAnd of course National Express Coventry could still end up running his bus service!
As well as making a profit without having to worry about how many passengers were being carried! :laugh:
Quote from: Stu on January 15, 2025, 08:45:42 PM:grin:
Screenshot 2025-01-15 at 20-35-55 West Midlands Bus Users on X @Kev_Bakeruk @TransportForWM @MayorWestMids @WestMids_CA You must either be a communist or unemployed because you don't seem to appreciate how commercial business works 🙄 _ X.png
In a nutshell, if you work for a company that doesn't make profit, then they can't afford to pay you and thus you lose your job.
In the case of the WMCA, if they don't make a profit through bus franchising, then they put up your council tax rates.
Someone could argue that Public Transport isn't intended to make a profit though its there to provide the best possible service for its passengers.
Although I still think we would be better off with an even more enhanced bus partnership (not franchising but something more than to what we have now) which could bring:
Tap and cap for all buses/trams
Unified bus branding with one social media platform/website for all buses (@westmidlandsbus / westmidlandsbus.co.uk)
But more importantly they need to be useable first
Why would you a bus from Acocks Green (as an example) to get into the City Centre which would probably take over 35 minutes
Its much quicker to get a bus or walk towards the nearest train station even its the opposite direction then get the train to Birmingham City Centre.
They need more bus priority lanes wherever possible in Birmingham - It worked for the A45 (X1/X2)
Need more bus lanes & if cars caught in the bus lane £1k fine
Quote from: Solo1 on January 15, 2025, 10:09:22 PMNeed more bus lanes & if cars caught in the bus lane £1k fine
A £1k fine is an utterly ridiculous suggestion. With the road layouts and constant changes around Birmingham city centre it's very easy to inadvertently enter a bus lane or bus 'gate'. I've done it myself mistakenly in the past on Sheepcote Street.
I'm not excusing those who deliberately abuse bus lanes but there are plenty who make honest mistakes.
Quote from: LD713821 on January 15, 2025, 09:19:16 PMSomeone could argue that Public Transport isn't intended to make a profit though its there to provide the best possible service for its passengers.
But only by making profits can bus companies invest in new vehicles and technologies.
Even under public ownership, WMCA will still need to make profits, mainly to pay back the initial investment.
Surely we need to look at who really should be driving.
In my opinion. Bus driver's, refuse truck drivers, medical staff and emergency services and delivery drivers.
Quote from: wembley86 on January 16, 2025, 12:00:08 PMSurely we need to look at who really should be driving.
In my opinion. Bus driver's, refuse truck drivers, medical staff and emergency services and delivery drivers.
And the cars that take them to Work and the respective other staff who work at the Garages, Hospitals and so on
Quote from: TGZac on July 31, 2024, 11:59:07 PMAlso the 40
40 was better when diamond and nx had their own 12 minute timetable meaning buses where every 6 minutes.
Quote from: BlackCountryBusSpotter on January 16, 2025, 01:33:34 PMAnd the cars that take them to Work and the respective other staff who work at the Garages, Hospitals and so on
According to government stats for 2022 79% of population drives. In the 1990s it was roughly 65%.
We don't know what it will be like in 2030 but it could be 83%.
Just been reading through some of the responses to the consultation here:
https://busreform.commonplace.is/en-GB/contributions/proposal/short-questionnaire
Seems to be a lot of contributions "Pending Moderation", including my own!
Screenshot 2025-01-17 at 09-41-22 Bus Reform Consultation Commonplace.png
:undecided:
Reading people's replies there's a lot of recurring themes. Mainly profit and monopoly.
Without profit there will be zero investment.
Franchising won't give you a choice either, you'll have one company and one company only running your route.
Mentions of the outer circle returning to a circle. That'll probably be one of the first routes to be broken up even further. Bringing back the midland red name was another response.
Franchising will almost certainly happen because so many people are giving positive thoughts about it without fully understanding it. Even I have difficulty understanding a lot of the proposal document and I have a greater understanding of local public transport than many.
Quote from: Gareth on January 17, 2025, 10:41:14 AMReading people's replies there's a lot of recurring themes. Mainly profit and monopoly.
Without profit there will be zero investment.
Franchising won't give you a choice either, you'll have one company and one company only running your route.
Mentions of the outer circle returning to a circle. That'll probably be one of the first routes to be broken up even further. Bringing back the midland red name was another response.
Franchising will almost certainly happen because so many people are giving positive thoughts about it without fully understanding it. Even I have difficulty understanding a lot of the proposal document and I have a greater understanding of local public transport than many.
My Dad once said you could get a monkey to run for labour and people would still vote for it, I would how many of these people actually use Buses regularly or are young or smart enough to know how it works, so Young, involved in someway in Government or Transport Industry, Financial or been involved in Buses somehow, I bet it wouldn't be a high percentage
Quote from: BlackCountryBusSpotter on January 17, 2025, 11:00:04 AMMy Dad once said you could get a monkey to run for labour and people would still vote for it, I would how many of these people actually use Buses regularly or are young or smart enough to know how it works, so Young, involved in someway in Government or Transport Industry, Financial or been involved in Buses somehow, I bet it wouldn't be a high percentage
I've got nothing against labour and normally I've got nothing against their policies. But I don't agree from what I know so far about West Midlands franchising.
The same on the other side of the argument, I despise what we put up with for the last 14 years, but I didn't mind Andy Street as mayor.
Quote from: Gareth on January 17, 2025, 11:21:27 AMI've got nothing against labour and normally I've got nothing against their policies. But I don't agree from what I know so far about West Midlands franchising.
The same on the other side of the argument, I despise what we put up with for the last 14 years, but I didn't mind Andy Street as mayor.
I agree there, I only hated his Tram policy
Reading the article in the February 2025 issue of Buses Magazine, something that jumped out at me was YMCA is stating 2039 for full zero emission operation - am I missing something here - I thought NXWM had given an undertaking to be 100% zero emission by 2030 - so why the extra 9 years?
Also, the article mentions the routes operated in the Coventry scheme, by Stagecoach, are exempt from franchising till 2035 - however the NXWM operation In Coventry appears not to be. This seems strange??!!
Quote from: don on January 18, 2025, 08:01:32 PMReading the article in the February 2025 issue of Buses Magazine, something that jumped out at me was YMCA is stating 2039 for full zero emission operation - am I missing something here - I thought NXWM had given an undertaking to be 100% zero emission by 2030 - so why the extra 9 years?
Also, the article mentions the routes operated in the Coventry scheme, by Stagecoach, are exempt from franchising till 2035 - however the NXWM operation In Coventry appears not to be. This seems strange??!!
Wonder if some backhanders have been past about regarding the stagecoach routes 😒 as it seems a bit unfair that one company can keep routes yet another is at Risk of losing all there's
QuoteWonder if some backhanders have been past about regarding the stagecoach routes 😒 as it seems a bit unfair that one company can keep routes yet another is at Risk of losing all there's
Unless they're waiting to see if Warks takes advantage of the forthcoming powers
Quote from: don on January 18, 2025, 08:01:32 PMReading the article in the February 2025 issue of Buses Magazine, something that jumped out at me was YMCA is stating 2039 for full zero emission operation - am I missing something here - I thought NXWM had given an undertaking to be 100% zero emission by 2030 - so why the extra 9 years?
NX Bus' aim was to have a zero-emission fleet by 2030, that is correct. I do recall reading in the Enhanced Partnership document that TfWM was targetting all operators that all new buses introduced from 2030 should be zero-emission.
Quote from: don on January 18, 2025, 08:01:32 PMAlso, the article mentions the routes operated in the Coventry scheme, by Stagecoach, are exempt from franchising till 2035 - however the NXWM operation In Coventry appears not to be. This seems strange??!!
Having read through the consultation documents, my understanding is that 'cross-border' services may not be included in the franchise programme, however they would be subject to a 'permit' to operate within the franchised area, rather than being exempted.
Quote from: don on January 18, 2025, 08:01:32 PMReading the article in the February 2025 issue of Buses Magazine, something that jumped out at me was YMCA is stating 2039 for full zero emission operation - am I missing something here - I thought NXWM had given an undertaking to be 100% zero emission by 2030 - so why the extra 9 years?
As per my post #134 in this thread, see section 3.5.1 on page 227 of the franchising report. I an wary of posting the text on here because there could be two sides to the story.
It seems TFWM plan to spend £6.5 million pound on building a new Coventry bus depot
Site will be brought in 2025/26 to be open in 2027/28 with a PVR of 40
Going to be interesting to see where it will be
Probably on one of the industrial estates by Coventry airport. Once they take over NXC's site they'll sell it for ££££££ to developers and cream off the top.
Quote from: Coventrybususer95 on January 19, 2025, 11:38:37 AMIt seems TFWM plan to spend £6.5 million pound on building a new Coventry bus depot
Site will be brought in 2025/26 to be open in 2027/28 with a PVR of 40
Going to be interesting to see where it will be
40 seems a small number for Coventry to me? Doesn't NXC have a few more than that?
If it is just 40 then just maybe they are looking at what was the new depot built by TDC (now a truck base) just before they stopped running?
Quote from: Sandy Lane on January 19, 2025, 01:36:26 PM40 seems a small number for Coventry to me? Doesn't NXC have a few more than that?
If it is just 40 then just maybe they are looking at what was the new depot built by TDC (now a truck base) just before they stopped running?
The report says Coventry will have a PVR of 164 buses
I believe this will be a new depot for "smaller routes" to be used along side ford street depot that would be for "bigger routes"
Tbf it's all confusing
Quote from: Coventrybususer95 on January 19, 2025, 11:38:37 AMIt seems TFWM plan to spend £6.5 million pound on building a new Coventry bus depot
Site will be brought in 2025/26 to be open in 2027/28 with a PVR of 40
Going to be interesting to see where it will be
Quote from: Sandy Lane on January 19, 2025, 01:36:26 PM40 seems a small number for Coventry to me? Doesn't NXC have a few more than that?
If it is just 40 then just maybe they are looking at what was the new depot built by TDC (now a truck base) just before they stopped running?
WMCA are planning to break down the region into areas, each of which will have a large 'lot' as well as a small lot.
I would assume that the current NX Coventry garage would be for the 'large lot' in that area, with this new depot being for the 'small lot'.
They expect the big operators to be bidding on the 'large lots', while the 'small lots' are aimed at the smaller independent operators, but no reason why the big groups won't bid on those as well.
Quote from: Stu on January 19, 2025, 04:00:16 PMWMCA are planning to break down the region into areas, each of which will have a large 'lot' as well as a small lot.
I would assume that the current NX Coventry garage would be for the 'large lot' in that area, with this new depot being for the 'small lot'.
They expect the big operators to be bidding on the 'large lots', while the 'small lots' are aimed at the smaller independent operators, but no reason why the big groups won't bid on those as well.
Thks Stu.
Would it not be much more cost effective to only have one bigger depot for Coventry buses rather than two depots? If two depots are called for I suppose this would be one of the big extra costs caused by franchising if Coventry does go for two operators?
This is true, in Manchester the small depots were all awarded to big operators, which I don't believe was their intended purpose, but the big operators could always undercut bids from independents. From what I've heard, one of them was almost won by Stotts Tours, a local independent, however Rotala came in last second with a better bid (no official source to back that up though).
Quote from: Gareth on January 17, 2025, 10:41:14 AMReading people's replies there's a lot of recurring themes. Mainly profit and monopoly.
Without profit there will be zero investment.
Franchising won't give you a choice either, you'll have one company and one company only running your route.
Mentions of the outer circle returning to a circle. That'll probably be one of the first routes to be broken up even further. Bringing back the midland red name was another response.
Franchising will almost certainly happen because so many people are giving positive thoughts about it without fully understanding it. Even I have difficulty understanding a lot of the proposal document and I have a greater understanding of local public transport than many.
I agree. Too many people see "profit" as some kind of 'dirty word' now.
If a company does not make profits, it cannot reward its staff with bonuses and pay-rises, and it cannot make any investments to improve its service offerings.
The consultation documents make it clear that the WMCA has already "made its mind up" about franchising, despite all the inherent financial risks involved, risks which will ultimately fall on the general taxpayer.
The consultation is designed so that a majority of people participating will 'support' it. When I last checked there had only been 450+ responses. I doubt whether many respondents had actually gone through all the documents in detail.
Many people are making 'informed decisions' based on bite-sized propaganda pieces being churned out by the local media. "Buses are unsafe", "buses are unreliable", "buses are prohibitively expensive", "cheaper to get a taxi" etc, as you see in comment sections.
I am also concerned by the number of responses - including my own - which are not visible and are 'pending moderation'.
Quote from: Stu on January 19, 2025, 05:32:55 PMI am also concerned by the number of responses - including my own - which are not visible and are 'pending moderation'.
If you weren't 100% positive for the changes then I doubt they'll get moderated until they're able to sanitise them.
Quote from: ellspurs on January 19, 2025, 05:37:04 PMIf you weren't 100% positive for the changes then I doubt they'll get moderated until they're able to sanitise them.
My comments were mostly supportive though!
https://wmbusphotos.com/forum/index.php?msg=338793
And there are a number of 'negative' comments that have been allowed and are visible.
Thankfully I made a record of my own submission into a draft article on my website at the time, which I have now finished off and is visible here:
https://wmbu.org.uk/2025/01/opinion-my-thoughts-on-the-bus-franchising-consultation/
Quote from: Coventrybususer95 on January 19, 2025, 11:38:37 AMIt seems TFWM plan to spend £6.5 million pound on building a new Coventry bus depot
Site will be brought in 2025/26 to be open in 2027/28 with a PVR of 40
Going to be interesting to see where it will be
I read it that the smaller additional Coventry depot would be opened if there was a "Future Partnership" approach (see also the mysterious Pear Tree in Dudley) rather than under the more likely/dead cert "Franchising" approach
I could be wrong, it's a drawback of publishing such a huge and probably expensive document
Quote from: Stu on January 19, 2025, 05:32:55 PMI agree. Too many people see "profit" as some kind of 'dirty word' now.
If a company does not make profits, it cannot reward its staff with bonuses and pay-rises, and it cannot make any investments to improve its service offerings.
The consultation documents make it clear that the WMCA has already "made its mind up" about franchising, despite all the inherent financial risks involved, risks which will ultimately fall on the general taxpayer.
The consultation is designed so that a majority of people participating will 'support' it. When I last checked there had only been 450+ responses. I doubt whether many respondents had actually gone through all the documents in detail.
Many people are making 'informed decisions' based on bite-sized propaganda pieces being churned out by the local media. "Buses are unsafe", "buses are unreliable", "buses are prohibitively expensive", "cheaper to get a taxi" etc, as you see in comment sections.
I am also concerned by the number of responses - including my own - which are not visible and are 'pending moderation'.
It really isn't cheaper to get a Taxi, and the other day for example I had to leave the Footie early waited for my mate to give me something so missed the 37 the next one was in an hour, I walked up to the bus shelter at County Bridge and went to order a cab, the cab was saying 40 minutes away as apparently Wolverhampton Road had been closed due to an accident it had reopened by the time I got home, the bus at this point was 40 minutes away, I had already caught Buses thar say so paid £4.80 a taxi would be £7 from Bentley to Darlaston Asda, the 37 had been delayed eairler but was on time of the evening, this is the problem people think the Taxi is cheaper because what TFWM don't do enough is advertise that a bus caps you at £4.80 and for that you could get 6 buses, on Friday/Saturday Mornings/Nights and Sunday Mornings and at say Bank Holidays/Christmas and New Year or after Gigs I believe what should happen is more Night buses to get people back from Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Coventry to places like Walsall, West Bromwich, Dudley and then say a later busy local route something like a 529 or 79 maybe 6 in Dudley 16/1/X8 in Wolverhampton maybe a 31/32, 10 in Walsall 47,49 in West Bromwich to then get people back to the suburbs of the busy towns so for example at 2AM on a Saturday Morning you could leave Birmingham jump on a 74 to West Bromwich and then either a 79 to Wednesbury, Darlaston, Moxley or Bilston or a 48/49 to Bearwood or you could get of the 51 in Walsall and get a 529 back to Bentley, Willenhall or Portobello or get on the 31 back to Bloxwhich or get the 126 to Dudley and get the 6 or 2 back home or 1 back to Wolverhampton. These and the Current tendered routes should be operated by a Public Owned entity, until NX say actually Mr Parker we reckon these late night buses could support themselves we want to make them commercial know then either Mr Parker could agree or be if they aren't working tender them of to a Diamond or whoever.
This would help the economy and promote bus travel to be safer, many things would need to happen before it could work ie more Police, Better Lighting at Bus Stations and On Streets, Help Points that lead to Police in emergency or Night time Staff who could request Police assistance, CCTV in Bus Stations or at Interchanges. Sadly this won't happen but yet the mayor still thinks Night time buses would work under Franchising and that with Franchising in general he would fix the problems
Quote from: BlackCountryBusSpotter on January 20, 2025, 10:44:37 AMIt really isn't cheaper to get a Taxi, and the other day for example I had to leave the Footie early waited for my mate to give me something so missed the 37 the next one was in an hour, I walked up to the bus shelter at County Bridge and went to order a cab, the cab was saying 40 minutes away as apparently Wolverhampton Road had been closed due to an accident it had reopened by the time I got home, the bus at this point was 40 minutes away, I had already caught Buses thar say so paid £4.80 a taxi would be £7 from Bentley to Darlaston Asda, the 37 had been delayed eairler but was on time of the evening, this is the problem people think the Taxi is cheaper because what TFWM don't do enough is advertise that a bus caps you at £4.80 and for that you could get 6 buses, on Friday/Saturday Mornings/Nights and Sunday Mornings and at say Bank Holidays/Christmas and New Year or after Gigs I believe what should happen is more Night buses to get people back from Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Coventry to places like Walsall, West Bromwich, Dudley and then say a later busy local route something like a 529 or 79 maybe 6 in Dudley 16/1/X8 in Wolverhampton maybe a 31/32, 10 in Walsall 47,49 in West Bromwich to then get people back to the suburbs of the busy towns so for example at 2AM on a Saturday Morning you could leave Birmingham jump on a 74 to West Bromwich and then either a 79 to Wednesbury, Darlaston, Moxley or Bilston or a 48/49 to Bearwood or you could get of the 51 in Walsall and get a 529 back to Bentley, Willenhall or Portobello or get on the 31 back to Bloxwhich or get the 126 to Dudley and get the 6 or 2 back home or 1 back to Wolverhampton. These and the Current tendered routes should be operated by a Public Owned entity, until NX say actually Mr Parker we reckon these late night buses could support themselves we want to make them commercial know then either Mr Parker could agree or be if they aren't working tender them of to a Diamond or whoever.
This would help the economy and promote bus travel to be safer, many things would need to happen before it could work ie more Police, Better Lighting at Bus Stations and On Streets, Help Points that lead to Police in emergency or Night time Staff who could request Police assistance, CCTV in Bus Stations or at Interchanges. Sadly this won't happen but yet the mayor still thinks Night time buses would work under Franchising and that with Franchising in general he would fix the problems
What the hell is he on about
Quote from: karl724223 on January 20, 2025, 12:44:04 PMWhat the hell is he on about
Never has a clue what he is talking about but yet types up essays and spams...
Quote from: Coventrybususer95 on January 19, 2025, 01:47:52 PMThe report says Coventry will have a PVR of 164 buses
I believe this will be a new depot for "smaller routes" to be used along side ford street depot that would be for "bigger routes"
Tbf it's all confusing
I suppose Coventry did have 'more than one depot' when Travel De Courcey operated from its base on Rowley Rd/Rowley Drive. I think MRS/Stagecoach had a site in Coventry at one point. I guess NXC's Ford Street garage is handily located, in the city centre and being near Pool Meadow.
Quote from: BlackCountryBusSpotter on January 20, 2025, 10:44:37 AMI believe what should happen is more Night buses to get people back from Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Coventry to places like Walsall, West Bromwich, Dudley and then say a later busy local route something like a 529 or 79 maybe 6 in Dudley 16/1/X8 in Wolverhampton maybe a 31/32, 10 in Walsall 47,49 in West Bromwich to then get people back to the suburbs of the busy towns so for example at 2AM on a Saturday Morning you could leave Birmingham jump on a 74 to West Bromwich and then either a 79 to Wednesbury, Darlaston, Moxley or Bilston or a 48/49 to Bearwood or you could get of the 51 in Walsall and get a 529 back to Bentley, Willenhall or Portobello or get on the 31 back to Bloxwhich or get the 126 to Dudley and get the 6 or 2 back home or 1 back to Wolverhampton.
I very much doubt many people are going to be travelling from Bloxwich, Willenhall, or Pendeford to Birmingham at 2AM in the morning.
A number of services already finish late and start up early 6 days a week. With a slightly later start normally on Sundays.
I was on the 1AM 94 on Sunday morning just gone 4936 and there was only a handful of people on it. So doubt there's demand for a whole network running at that time.
Quote from: 2206 on January 20, 2025, 06:36:20 PMI very much doubt many people are going to be travelling from Bloxwich, Willenhall, or Pendeford to Birmingham at 2AM in the morning.
A number of services already finish late and start up early 6 days a week. With a slightly later start normally on Sundays.
I was on the 1AM 94 on Sunday morning just gone 4936 and there was only a handful of people on it. So doubt there's demand for a whole network running at that time.
Maybe night outs and From Wolverhampton to Willenhall Maybe, Special Events like Gigs, Comic Con, Football/Rugby Matches, Shows, Thearte, Christmas/New Year. Ik in Darlaston on a Friday Night there are loads of Taxi around all of them that I have seen coming back from my own night out, had at least 1 person in them other than the Driver
Just reading through some of the consultation responses again, and I can't believe how ill-informed some people are!
Quote
(L16) It is suggested that the Proposed Franchising Scheme will offer value for money. Do you have any comments on this?
By far to expensive for a daysaver £4.80 Not many people carry cash or correct change on them needs to be lower
Quote
(L33) Taking everything into account, the Assessment concludes that the Proposed Franchising Scheme is the best way to achieve WMCA's objectives to improve bus services. Do you have any comments on this?
Needs to be better bus service and more frequent bus
QuoteMany bus journeys are ridiculously slow. 1 hour + from Dudley to Birmingham is ridiculous for 10 miles.
:rolleyes:
QuoteIf you don't live near a rail station you cannot buy a day ticket for 2+ modes of transport. No common ticketing between National Express and Diamond means tickets are more expensive in Dudley.
That is simply not true! One-day nNetwork tickets can be bought on bus. And NX and Diamond single/day tickets are the same price!
Quote(L4) Do you have any comments on the Delivery Options we have identified?
The Reference Case: continued partnership with operators as per current arrangements - there is not partnership: I cannot buy a ticket from one operator and use it on another bus. All of the other points are only to serve the financial profitability of the company. Nothing to do with improvement for passengers.
More ill-informed rubbish, nBus day tickets are valid on ALL bus operators' services.
Quote(L13) Are there any further economic impacts you think should be included?
You should consider the fact that most people in the West Midlands do not use buses because they are unreliable, noisy, dirty and expensive. Nothing so far has suggested to me that anything here is aimed at getting drivers on to buses.
:undecided:
Quote
(L22) Do you have any comments on the proposal that WMCA would acquire bus depots under the Proposed Franchising Scheme?
What's wrong with the ones you've already got? Instead of wasting money on new properties, make better use of the those you already own.
:rolleyes:
Quote(L8) Do you have any comments on the impacts of the Proposed Franchising Scheme on passengers?
I do not know anything other than a headline election proposal to bring the busses under public ownership.
(L9) Do you have any comments on the impacts of a Future Partnership option on passengers?
I do not know what the potential impacts are. I can guess but I'm not an expert so I may not consider something important and I do not know how to evaluate if my guesses have any merit
(L10) Do you have any comments on the impacts of the Proposed Franchising Scheme on operators?
Presumably the operator will keep their licence but actually be monitored properly to deliver a good service but again with no information I am guessing and bringing my own bias to possibly outcomes
(L11) Do you have any comments on the impacts of a Future Partnership Option on operators?
I don't even know what this means. I have. No information about what is planned
No idea about what any of the questions are asking, just submit a response anyway! :laugh:
Some more:
Quote
(S1) There are several challenges facing the West Midlands Bus Network which means that it is not performing as well as it could. Do you have any comments on this?
If you made it cheaper, more people would use it.
:laugh:
Quote(S4) It is suggested that the Proposed Franchising Scheme will offer value for money. Do you have any comments on this?
Unless you keep fares at a reasonable price, creating true value for money it won't work.
Clearly doesn't understand the context of the question!
Quote(S2) Reform is considered to be the right thing to do to address the challenges facing the local bus market. Do you have any comments on this?
Hopefully the buses will be on time and run when they should. Causing less stress and delays.
And doesn't understand 'why' buses don't run on time!
Quote(S2) Reform is considered to be the right thing to do to address the challenges facing the local bus market. Do you have any comments on this?
I believe franchising is the most effective way to see real change. Bus routes MUST improve and fairs MUST be lowered for the bus service to continue operating.
So you want bus services to improve, but you don't want to pay for them? :rolleyes:
Quote(S4) It is suggested that the Proposed Franchising Scheme will offer value for money. Do you have any comments on this?
No, this and the last question should be made more assessable. I'm a university student but still need to do research to understand the question. This is unacceptable as it excludes many people from participating
This kind of comment makes me fear about this country's future if our "best and brightest" don't know how to 'do research' by reading through the consultation documents provided! :undecided:
Those samples of answers indicate how confused people are about who owns and is responsible for what. For example some are under the impression that fares are set by TfWM (which would likely happen under franchising).
Quote from: Stu on January 22, 2025, 07:54:27 PMJust reading through some of the consultation responses again, and I can't believe how ill-informed some people are!
:rolleyes: That is simply not true! One-day nNetwork tickets can be bought on bus. And NX and Diamond single/day tickets are the same price!
More ill-informed rubbish, nBus day tickets are valid on ALL bus operators' services.
:undecided: :rolleyes:
No idea about what any of the questions are asking, just submit a response anyway! :laugh:
honestly it seems like the go by nbus ads in i think 2023 were all for nothing if people are spouting out this much information so confidently
Quote from: Rachvince53 on January 22, 2025, 09:04:43 PMThose samples of answers indicate how confused people are about who owns and is responsible for what. For example some are under the impression that fares are set by TfWM (which would likely happen under franchising).
The politicians relish such ignorance amongst the public though. It means they can get their idiotic and half-brained schemes through and get the people to believe they will have a better service.
When it all goes t*ts up and local taxes are massively raised to pay for a service no better than the deregulated service was, no doubt Mayor Richey and his ilk will blame the public for asking for change.
Thick people are politicians ticket to an easy life and a get out of jail free card. When decisions go wrong, just blame the public who voted for them rather than take any responsibility yourself. It's in the 'how to be a politician' handbook, page 1 paragraph 1!
I see not one comment from any of these cretins in power highlighting how worsening traffic congestion over recent years has made running bus services efficiently near on impossible. That is the reality of course but as usual the idiots with the power don't like acknowledging any actual truth. So let's just blame the current operators 🤬🤬🤬
Quote from: j789 on January 23, 2025, 05:17:28 PMThe politicians relish such ignorance amongst the public though.
Yes of course!
'You want all that evil EU money to go straight to the NHS? Vote for Brexit'
'You want to deport all the evil brown people invading us? Vote Tory'
'You want cheap bus fares and on time buses and think NX are evil? Vote for local franchises!'
For too long anything political is about short catchy soundbites and not actual policy or substance.
Quote from: j789 on January 23, 2025, 05:17:28 PMI see not one comment from any of these cretins in power highlighting how worsening traffic congestion over recent years has made running bus services efficiently near on impossible.
Absolutely. A point I made in my survey response, together with bus lane enforcement. I hope my input counts for more than the likes of inaccurate rants about no multi-operator tickets. But I'm not confident.
Quote from: j789 on January 23, 2025, 05:17:28 PMThe politicians relish such ignorance amongst the public though. It means they can get their idiotic and half-brained schemes through and get the people to believe they will have a better service.
When it all goes t*ts up and local taxes are massively raised to pay for a service no better than the deregulated service was, no doubt Mayor Richey and his ilk will blame the public for asking for change.
Thick people are politicians ticket to an easy life and a get out of jail free card. When decisions go wrong, just blame the public who voted for them rather than take any responsibility yourself. It's in the 'how to be a politician' handbook, page 1 paragraph 1!
I see not one comment from any of these cretins in power highlighting how worsening traffic congestion over recent years has made running bus services efficiently near on impossible. That is the reality of course but as usual the idiots with the power don't like acknowledging any actual truth. So let's just blame the current operators 🤬🤬🤬
I agree, especially with your point about worsening traffic congestion, the fact is that unless there are serious and I mean serious bus priorities then it will make no difference no matter how the bus service is opertated or how it is operated or who operates it.
QuoteMany bus journeys are ridiculously slow. 1 hour + from Dudley to Birmingham is ridiculous for 10 miles.
Revisiting the above comment again. Yes, actually I do think it is pretty ridiculous, but there are several bus routes going between Dudley and Birmingham and the above commenter doesn't point out which route they refer to.
After having a think about this, I distinctly remember a time when the old 120 (now 12) was timetabled to take just under an hour to get from Birmingham city centre to Dudley bus station. No doubt anyone with a collection of old timetable leaflets can back this up.
The route of the 12 hasn't changed substantially since I used to use the 120, but it does take roughly an hour and 15mins now.
The fastest route between Birmingham and Dudley has always been the 126, and I remember when this used to take around 40-45mins. It's pretty much the same route now (apart from not continuing to Wolverhampton), but it seems to take around 50mins now. The 'express' X8 service isn't really any quicker.
If you travel on the 74 or 87, they are longer journeys, and both can get subject to heavy traffic congestion and thus journeys take longer than they are scheduled to.
So what's changed to make bus journeys slower? Traffic congestion is the main one, but equally for the city centre services, changes to road layouts there have made some routings quite convoluted, and despite some bus-priority measures in place, its taking some buses much longer to get in and out of the city centre than it used to.
What many people don't realise is that franchising won't make buses "more reliable" on its own, and WMCA do admit this in their assessment documents. Without more bus priority measures - whatever happened to 'smart junctions' that detect approaching buses and alter the signal sequence to allow them to get through faster? - the franchised bus network will end up just as unreliable, or journeys will take even longer as buses wait at timing points if they're lucky enough to miss congestion points.
Quote from: cardew on January 23, 2025, 06:28:57 PMAbsolutely. A point I made in my survey response, together with bus lane enforcement. I hope my input counts for more than the likes of inaccurate rants about no multi-operator tickets. But I'm not confident.
Make sure your comment has actually been published and is visible! My contribution is still 'awaiting moderation' nearly two weeks after submitting it! :undecided:
Quote from: Stu on January 23, 2025, 07:27:36 PMSo what's changed to make bus journeys slower? Traffic congestion is the main one, but equally for the city centre services, changes to road layouts there have made some routings quite convoluted, and despite some bus-priority measures in place, its taking some buses much longer to get in and out of the city centre than it used to.
Who knows the mayor will likely to adopt Ken Livingstone idea and introduce Congestion Charge in places like City Centres. Although the idea came from Singapore but it is becoming popular and New York introduced it recently.
Quote from: Sayeed on January 23, 2025, 08:40:13 PMWho knows the mayor will likely to adopt Ken Livingstone idea and introduce Congestion Charge in places like City Centres. Although the idea came from Singapore but it is becoming popular and New York introduced it recently.
Birmingham has already sort of done this though with its 'clean air zone' charge.
Quote from: Stu on January 23, 2025, 08:43:49 PMBirmingham has already sort of done this though with its 'clean air zone' charge.
Yes but Congestion Charge can be used at specific times like at peak hours unlike CAZ.
Quote from: Stu on January 23, 2025, 08:43:49 PMBirmingham has already sort of done this though with its 'clean air zone' charge.
Don't be silly.
Have you seen the congestion in City Centre on most Saturdays?
It's anything but.
QuoteDon't be silly.
Have you seen the congestion in City Centre on most Saturdays?
It's anything but.
Might wanna pack your sleeping bag a kitchen and a toilet while you wait in that traffic
Quote from: Stu on January 17, 2025, 09:43:53 AMJust been reading through some of the responses to the consultation here:
https://busreform.commonplace.is/en-GB/contributions/proposal/short-questionnaire
Seems to be a lot of contributions "Pending Moderation", including my own!
Screenshot 2025-01-17 at 09-41-22 Bus Reform Consultation Commonplace.png
:undecided:
I contacted TfWM with my concerns about this, and have now had the following response back:
Thank you for sending this over. The unusually high level of moderation is something we have raised with Commonplace.Just to let you know in case it happens to you on a future consultation, we do have access to all responses. So even if it is held as moderated, it has still been received it just isn't showing publicly.
Quote from: Stu on January 27, 2025, 01:08:28 PMI contacted TfWM with my concerns about this, and have now had the following response back:
Thank you for sending this over. The unusually high level of moderation is something we have raised with Commonplace.
Just to let you know in case it happens to you on a future consultation, we do have access to all responses. So even if it is held as moderated, it has still been received it just isn't showing publicly.
In other words this seems to say:
'Thanks for your comments outlining all the pitfalls of franchising - they have all been ignored during 'moderation'. However, thankfully two-brain cell Fred has sent a message outlining how horrendous the current bus service is because his bus was two minutes late one day last month. His comment has been not been moderated. Have a nice day'
Quote from: j789 on January 27, 2025, 05:27:11 PMIn other words this seems to say:
'Thanks for your comments outlining all the pitfalls of franchising - they have all been ignored during 'moderation'. However, thankfully two-brain cell Fred has sent a message outlining how horrendous the current bus service is because his bus was two minutes late one day last month. His comment has been not been moderated. Have a nice day'
On the contrary, it seems to me that TfWM are 'apportioning the blame' onto the Commonplace platform that they use.
The 'moderation' only applies to public visibility of consultation responses. No doubt there are a lot of responses that are being moderated because they contain foul/abusive language, which would be understandable. However based on my own experiences attempting to comment on Birmingham Mail articles (they use the Viafoura commenting system), it seems there are certain keywords and phrases which if detected will mean your comment is immediately 'deactivated'. (Seriously, you can't even use the word 'idiot'!)
Clearly something I wrote in my responses has 'triggered' this automatic moderation process, but it beats me what it was!
I agree with your cynicism though, at the end of the day as WMCA seem to have already made up their mind what they are going to do, all they need is a majority of the responses to be 'in favour', therefore they can claim 'public approval' and a mandate to do so. They don't even need to read any of the written responses.
Quote from: j789 on January 27, 2025, 05:27:11 PMIn other words this seems to say:
'Thanks for your comments outlining all the pitfalls of franchising - they have all been ignored during 'moderation'. However, thankfully two-brain cell Fred has sent a message outlining how horrendous the current bus service is because his bus was two minutes late one day last month. His comment has been not been moderated. Have a nice day'
Reminds me of your approach to anyone's view on the SME bus market!
Quote from: Straightlines on January 27, 2025, 05:42:41 PMReminds me of your approach to anyone's view on the SME bus market!
Not really I just tire of the anti-NX/ big company BS spouted by some based on nothing more than historical jealousy because those people ran/worked for other bus companies who tried to get a 'piece of the financial pie' in the West Mids and were never really able too.
Sour grapes is all it is because ultimately they were failures at that intended goal. End of!
Quote from: Straightlines on January 27, 2025, 05:42:41 PMReminds me of your approach to anyone's view on the SME bus market!
Franchising in Manchester has done more to eliminate SME operators than NXWM's commercial majority has ever managed to achieve
Quote from: Tony on January 27, 2025, 06:04:35 PMFranchising in Manchester has done more to eliminate SME operators than NXWM's commercial majority has ever managed to achieve
Wasn't actually my point but in reference to yours it's probably level in terms of SME destruction by TfGM / NX Monopoly!
Quote from: Straightlines on January 27, 2025, 06:09:34 PMWasn't actually my point but in reference to yours it's probably level in terms of SME destruction by TfGM / NX Monopoly!
How can a monopoly destroy SME, by the very fact there are SME to destroy means there's no monopoly
Quote from: Tony on January 27, 2025, 06:15:15 PMHow can a monopoly destroy SME, by the very fact there are SME to destroy means there's no monopoly
I think it's been well documented over the years specifically including the monopoly on the travelcard.
Thankfully, the party for NX seems to be over and quite frankly some of the tears on here are wonderful to see.
Quote from: Stu on January 27, 2025, 05:41:29 PM(Seriously, you can't even use the word 'idiot'!)
Understandably! How dare the evil Birmingham Mail not wanting people being called names on its website.
Quote from: Straightlines on January 27, 2025, 06:09:34 PMWasn't actually my point but in reference to yours it's probably level in terms of SME destruction by TfGM / NX Monopoly!
I'd be very interested to hear which SME operators you'd suggest, since de-regulation, would have provided a better all round service than WMT/TWM/NX have managed?
Massively increased costs over the last 20 years have meant that company scaling has mattered even more. Perhaps, in some eyes, it would have been lovely to have had 10 different similar sized operators on the West Mids. Yet the cost pressures encountered over those last 20 years mean that, on such a scenario, those companies would likely have had to either sell up or merge with others so you'd eventually end up with a couple of large companies anyway - just like has happened in Manchester (prior to franchising), Sheffield, Bristol etc.
It's not the 1990s anymore.
Quote from: Gareth on January 27, 2025, 06:23:45 PMUnderstandably! How dare the evil Birmingham Mail not wanting people being called names on its website.
Context is key though. Idiot itself is not an offensive word, only to those who feel offended by it when it is directed at them. :rolleyes:
Both the following statements would be 'censored' if left as a comment:
"There are far too many idiots on our roads causing deaths by speeding"
"Richard Parker is an idiot if he thinks bus franchising will make buses more reliable"
Quote from: Straightlines on January 27, 2025, 06:21:07 PMI think it's been well documented over the years specifically including the monopoly on the travelcard.
Thankfully, the party for NX seems to be over and quite frankly some of the tears on here are wonderful to see.
The adoption of nBus as a 'standard', and doing away with operator-only tickets/passes has probably come a little too late.
That was always - in my opinion - the ultimate barrier towards getting other bus operators to become involved in the region.
In NX's defence, by having the 'monopoly', it did mean that passengers in many areas only served by NX enjoyed cheaper fares.
There will be more tears being shed in the near future, when the likes of Stagecoach, First, Arriva and Go-Ahead are running your bus services, and the service is just as shoddy, while you pay more for the privilege.
Quote from: Stu on January 27, 2025, 06:55:19 PMThere will be more tears being shed in the near future, when the likes of Stagecoach, First, Arriva and Go-Ahead are running your bus services, and the service is just as shoddy, while you pay more for the privilege.
Spot on!
Ironic people thinking it's good NX won't have a monopoly anymore when the alternative will be one of the other big companies. It's not like Travel Express will be running the routes, despite how much a few on here would clearly love that option.
Trust me, if you currently work for NX, things will not get better either, conditions wise, if you are forced to transfer to one of those other companies in the future. There are no winners in this scenario at all.
A prime example is happening in Manchester at the moment. Stagecoach is the prominent operator in South Manchester commercially, TfGM award two garages to Metroline. Lots of Stagecoach staff are happy working for them so choose to fill all the remaining vacancies at Stagecoach's remaining garages instead of TUPE transferring to Metroline.
Metroline haven't had chance to recruit enough new recruits to fill the gaps, so lots of buses missing that weren't before franchising, so much so that TfGM have now had to call First Group in from Rochdale to run some of the services they have only just awarded to Metroline, and I bet First are charging them nicely for the privilege.
Quote from: Tony on January 27, 2025, 08:01:20 PMA prime example is happening in Manchester at the moment. Stagecoach is the prominent operator in South Manchester commercially, TfGM award two garages to Metroline. Lots of Stagecoach staff are happy working for them so choose to fill all the remaining vacancies at Stagecoach's remaining garages instead of TUPE transferring to Metroline.
Metroline haven't had chance to recruit enough new recruits to fill the gaps, so lots of buses missing that weren't before franchising, so much so that TfGM have now had to call First Group in from Rochdale to run some of the services they have only just awarded to Metroline, and I bet First are charging them nicely for the privilege.
And you can bet that Mr Burnham isn't mentioning this in any of his many press conferences either! Even more ironic is how First particularly were painted as the bad guys in Manchester before franchising and yet now they are getting the 'Bees' out of a hole. Irony these politicians certainly can't comprehend that is for sure!
Quote from: j789 on January 27, 2025, 08:09:07 PMAnd you can bet that Mr Burnham isn't mentioning this in any of his many press conferences either! Even more ironic is how First particularly were painted as the bad guys in Manchester before franchising and yet now they are getting the 'Bees' out of a hole. Irony these politicians certainly can't comprehend that is for sure!
Quote from: Tony on January 27, 2025, 08:01:20 PMA prime example is happening in Manchester at the moment. Stagecoach is the prominent operator in South Manchester commercially, TfGM award two garages to Metroline. Lots of Stagecoach staff are happy working for them so choose to fill all the remaining vacancies at Stagecoach's remaining garages instead of TUPE transferring to Metroline.
Metroline haven't had chance to recruit enough new recruits to fill the gaps, so lots of buses missing that weren't before franchising, so much so that TfGM have now had to call First Group in from Rochdale to run some of the services they have only just awarded to Metroline, and I bet First are charging them nicely for the privilege.
Mr Burnham hasn't but callers to BBC Radio Manchester in the last few weeks most certainly have! His only, and continued parrot-fashioned response is that most new businesses need a little help, and the majority of services are running with little disruption!
I'm sure the same will happen when bus franchising hits the West Midlands, with whoever wins the tenders needing help from intergroup, or from another operator like NXWM.
Been having another look at consultation responses.
Quote(S1) There are several challenges facing the West Midlands Bus Network which means that it is not performing as well as it could. Do you have any comments on this?
The lack of integration is frustrating- when I travel in London I know Oyster will work on all the transport, automatically cap my spend etc. I'm Birmingham I am really not sure how best to go from tram to bus or bus to train. And then you can't use tickets with different operators so it costs more to get a 50 bus one way with NXBus and the other with Diamond. It doesn't feel like anyone has passengers' best interests at heart. It's also hard to find information, google is great but if you need info from the bus operator eg routes it is inconsistent. The recent price increase following the removal of the £2 cap has also been quite a shock - it's now not much more expensive to get an uber from my house to the city centre when there are two of us travelling, which feels like we just end up with more cars on the road. I understand the need to subsidise longer less profitable journeys, but it's expensive for people living in deprived urban areas relatively close to the city centre.
I do agree that Oyster is great in London, but then we do have Swift Go here in the West Midlands that does the same thing. But I agree that paying by contactless card is not as well integrated here.
More untruth though with the claim that "you can't use tickets with different operators so it costs more to get a 50 bus one way with NXBus and the other with Diamond". nBus Day tickets are valid and accepted on all operators, and there is no cost difference between travelling on an NX or a Diamond bus if making a single journey.
" it's now not much more expensive to get an uber from my house to the city centre when there are two of us travelling" - It seems to me there is a lack of awareness of the Family/Group nBus ticket, and an assumption made by many people that if they have to travel by bus then they can only buy single tickets.
I think as part of this franchising scheme we need to look at our failures in public transport in the west midlands.
Look how long it took to get line two of the metro of the ground and it is still not up and running. Imagine instead that been a guided bus route from Bescot at Wallows Lane traveling along the disused railway to Dudley/Stourbridge how much easier at quicker bus journeys would have been.
Quote from: wembley86 on February 04, 2025, 12:48:15 PMI think as part of this franchising scheme we need to look at our failures in public transport in the west midlands.
Look how long it took to get line two of the metro of the ground and it is still not up and running. Imagine instead that been a guided bus route from Bescot at Wallows Lane traveling along the disused railway to Dudley/Stourbridge how much easier at quicker bus journeys would have been.
Isn't Wallows Lane still an active Train Line for Frieght from Bescot to Portobello and so on and will be part of the Walsall to Wolverhampton line when that reopens
Quote from: BlackCountryBusSpotter on February 05, 2025, 11:29:47 AMIsn't Wallows Lane still an active Train Line for Frieght from Bescot to Portobello and so on and will be part of the Walsall to Wolverhampton line when that reopens
No, thats the line that joins/leaves the Chase Line at Wednesbury Road. The line at Wallows Lane was part of the South Staffordshire Line which begins at the point where the Chase Line turns north to pass under Wallows Lane. It has been mothballed since the through line to Stourbridge via Wednesbury, Dudley Port (Low Level) and Dudley closed. I believe it was intended to be repurposed as part of the "5Ws" Metro plan.
Quote from: Rachvince53 on February 05, 2025, 06:40:18 PMNo, thats the line that joins/leaves the Chase Line at Wednesbury Road. The line at Wallows Lane was part of the South Staffordshire Line which begins at the point where the Chase Line turns north to pass under Wallows Lane. It has been mothballed since the through line to Stourbridge via Wednesbury, Dudley Port (Low Level) and Dudley closed. I believe it was intended to be repurposed as part of the "5Ws" Metro plan.
The 5W Line was never going to work anyway, so glad the mayor hasn't proposed that like his predecessor did it would have presumably gone up from the Metro Alignmnt from Wednesbury Parkway across what is now the Black Country New Road or under it and apparently was going to serve Darlaston before following the old alignment of a former rail line from Darlaston to Where the new station is, there were many issues half of that land has houses and factories on it, some of it carries busy Main roads over it and some of it is a park. I believe they later rectified it to use the South Staffs line and not serve Darlaston, But There was many proposals for it most of which didn't work.
The 5Ws would have worked perfectly, The plans were in place before the last Mayor
Quote from: Stu on February 02, 2025, 07:32:36 PMI do agree that Oyster is great in London, but then we do have Swift Go here in the West Midlands that does the same thing. But I agree that paying by contactless card is not as well integrated here.
it would be a boon if tap & cap worked across the different bus companies, for whilst my travel to & from work is wholly NXWM, the buses I use for getting around on days off are a mixture of Diamond, NXWM and Kevs
Personally, as someone who has worked on both sides of the coin (for operators and TfWM), I think several issues around franchising haven't been answered and some of the reasons for franchising being pursued are being presented behind smoke and mirrors.
The franchising assessment indicates that even with franchising, passenger numbers are envisaged to fall. If that is the case, the taxpayer is being asked to 'buy' a system that even with all the money being invested, won't improve and in turn, would probably cost more money to prop up. No one in business rightly buys a business in insolvency so why should the taxpayer be asked to do this with regards to the bus network?
Franchising is meant to improve journey times however TfWM and Local Authorities already control highways and various aspects of the road system, such as parking enforcement so how franchising improves that is something I can't see. If franchising isn't coupled with serious improvements to both parking enforcement and introduction bus priority in areas where it's technically feasible but politically distasteful (such as Soho Road, where it's dual carriageway for the majority of the way but is parked on, in sometimes a haphazard way, impacting the 74's punctuality to name one area) then I can't see how franchising magically speeds up journey times. All I can see is an influx of additional buses into timetables to keep frequencies up, which brings me onto my next point...
Driver shortage. Whilst this may be turning around, under franchising that doesn't magically go away. Coupled with the fact that the West Midlands Combined Authority has some levers it can pull to improve this (employment programs, education etc), it's easy to say 'we control the network so more buses should run' but if you don't address this problem, I can envisage a scenario where the operators are short of drivers and can point to the franchising authority in this case as not creating a system where adequate drivers are available across the network for employment.
The documents to me seem long winded and designed to assure a 'yes' to franchising, regardless of whether this is the best option, solely based on it being a Labour policy and nothing more substantial than that.
At the risk of repeating some of my posts, and that of others, I had quite the debate with two local councillors and one Labour MP this week over the virtues of bus franchising.
Interestingly (!), none of these politicians have caught a bus in the last 5 years, so ironically cannot offer any semblance of comparison of what bus travel looked, looks, or will look like.
They completely missed the point that bus franchising will never work until the road infrastructure is massively redesigned (which it never will). There only comment was that there's bus lanes along Wednesfield Road between Heath Town and Wolverhampton Ring Road (forgetting the Willenhall Road bus lanes!), that offers "excellent integrated transport links with trains, buses and Metro". That's as may be, but that doesn't alter the fact that congestion on Wolverhampton's Ring Road is the worst I've ever seen it, very little bus priority in place and that after the bus lanes, they still share the same road space.
I pointed out that, WHEN bus franchising happens (which is something we have to resign ourselves too, consultation or not), that route frequencies will decrease, the opportunity for under established operators to tender for services increases, you'll have the same situation as in Manchester where operators aren't set up for this level of upheaval, even with advance warning of the changes (see the Metroline using Stagecoach fleet!), leasing/borrowing buses in all liveries to cover the same routes as before, just under the guise of TfWM services.
This, in turn, will drive more passengers into cars on the same roadspace, thus exacerbating the existing problem.
I used an example with the three of them; the WA9 was on diversion due to an incident around New Invention. Now suppose this was a TfWM franchise route........would it make ANY difference if this happened under franchising where the service was running up to 45 minutes late? No. It's the same roads, same buses with the same traffic, and still they wouldn't accept it. They thought you could magic up buses "as they'd be contractually obliged to maintain the frequency!
All they see is a one-size-fits-all model for London and Manchester that *must* work for Birmingham (no mention of West Midlands/Black Country in the discussion!).
Face it folks, no matter how many consultations, public meetings and assurances that the travelling public will have a say, that this is happening, come what may.
Quote from: Wumpty on March 05, 2025, 04:56:36 PMAt the risk of repeating some of my posts, and that of others, I had quite the debate with two local councillors and one Labour MP this week over the virtues of bus franchising.
Interestingly (!), none of these politicians have caught a bus in the last 5 years, so ironically cannot offer any semblance of comparison of what bus travel looked, looks, or will look like.
They completely missed the point that bus franchising will never work until the road infrastructure is massively redesigned (which it never will). There only comment was that there's bus lanes along Wednesfield Road between Heath Town and Wolverhampton Ring Road (forgetting the Willenhall Road bus lanes!), that offers "excellent integrated transport links with trains, buses and Metro". That's as may be, but that doesn't alter the fact that congestion on Wolverhampton's Ring Road is the worst I've ever seen it, very little bus priority in place and that after the bus lanes, they still share the same road space.
I pointed out that, WHEN bus franchising happens (which is something we have to resign ourselves too, consultation or not), that route frequencies will decrease, the opportunity for under established operators to tender for services increases, you'll have the same situation as in Manchester where operators aren't set up for this level of upheaval, even with advance warning of the changes (see the Metroline using Stagecoach fleet!), leasing/borrowing buses in all liveries to cover the same routes as before, just under the guise of TfWM services.
This, in turn, will drive more passengers into cars on the same roadspace, thus exacerbating the existing problem.
I used an example with the three of them; the WA9 was on diversion due to an incident around New Invention. Now suppose this was a TfWM franchise route........would it make ANY difference if this happened under franchising where the service was running up to 45 minutes late? No. It's the same roads, same buses with the same traffic, and still they wouldn't accept it. They thought you could magic up buses "as they'd be contractually obliged to maintain the frequency!
All they see is a one-size-fits-all model for London and Manchester that *must* work for Birmingham (no mention of West Midlands/Black Country in the discussion!).
Face it folks, no matter how many consultations, public meetings and assurances that the travelling public will have a say, that this is happening, come what may.
And it's going to be organised by clowns who don't catch public transport or who have little knowledge about public transport basically Manchester will be pulling the west midland strings
Quote from: Wumpty on March 05, 2025, 04:56:36 PMAt the risk of repeating some of my posts, and that of others, I had quite the debate with two local councillors and one Labour MP this week over the virtues of bus franchising.
Interestingly (!), none of these politicians have caught a bus in the last 5 years, so ironically cannot offer any semblance of comparison of what bus travel looked, looks, or will look like.
A genuine question as I have no idea what the answer will be. Does the WM Mayor use local bus services either for business or personal use?
Quote from: Sandy Lane on March 05, 2025, 08:35:37 PMA genuine question as I have no idea what the answer will be. Does the WM Mayor use local bus services either for business or personal use?
I've ever only ever seen him on the buses twice on the news, he is usually stood outside the Bus Station usually Wolverhampton, or Walsall and on the news you see other TFWM Staff with him.
Going on to Wumpty's point, as someone who used to commute in and out of Wolverhampton the Ring Road is indeed a nightmare, of a morning it is queuing from The Wednesfield Road Turn off to most of the time past the Bus Station sometimes even over to the Bilston Road Island so you have the 9, 59, 69 all stuck in it as well as arriving 79's, 82's, 8's, X8's and 529's which are also delayed leaving to. Of an Evening the Traffic seems to get worse with even more traffic from the Wednesfield Round and on Bilston Street, Around Christmas especially Bilston Street is a nightmare, I once walked it from College by Compton Park, took a photo of a Covid sign for a college project, then walked it to the Manders, as I knew the next 79 was about 3 minutes from leaving and I would miss it if I walked I jumped on a number 10 it was about Midday/1PM and the bus took 10-15 minutes to get from the Manders Centre to the Bus Station, the 79 I had aimed to get hadn't actually managed to clear Pipers Row and the one behind it which I caught had been late getting in and then took 10 minutes to leave.
Traffic on the West Park Side of the City also seems horrendous from the Morning School Run to about 9AM delaying 1's and 10's and also Arriva 9's and Banga 891's, of an evening it seems even worse heading in both directions beyond School Run times, If I left College at 5/5.15PM I wouldn't be getting to Wolverhampton until about 5.35/5.40 due to waiting and then sitting in Traffic, the 79 would also get stuck in traffic and hence 2 or 3 would turn up.
But onto a wider issue, Parking is a nightmare and School Parking especially, where I live in Darlaston is by a Primary School which has had two of it's kids involved In a serious incident so they installed a Zebra Crossing fine, but due to the owners of the Frying Pan Pub restricting access and Alma Street rightfully being made Residents only all the Parents have to park on Bilston Street this means the amount of Traffic leaving there plus the Crossing means the 39 often struggles to pass the section being held up for 5 minutes, add on roadworks that were in Pleck and Moxley Last Week they would be about 30-35 minutes late. Bilston Street is a dead end so no option of parents going that way, I have no idea why it is a dead end, if it was made a two way street it could flow onto St Lawrence Way a Road more suited to handle the Traffic than Willenhall Street.
There is constant parking issues to on routes I use the 79 encounters them in Hill Top also not helped by Roadworks there at the minute, the Darlaston buses get them in Pleck, Pleck is often a hold up even for seemingly no reason and at random times also not helped by a Big School after the Railway Bridge on the Island and a Mosque further down, The 529 is often affected by J10 and the Keyway and now Willenhall Roadworks.
These politicians need to ride a bus of an Evening and Morning Peak and see why there being held up and why more often than not they can't actual regain Time especially in areas like Birmingham and busy Main routes like the 9, 59, 79, 529 and 1 and in Birmingham any route that serves a main corridor. Sadly they won't and we will be forced to pay for this. I would happily even when I can drive get a bus into a City or to places like the Footie so I could Drink or avoid the pain of City Parking and driving, however if they do this with the buses I would rather drive and get cabs than get a bus that hasn't actually been improved and if anything would be worse
I agree with you on the worsening traffic situation. Franchising will simply not make any difference unless other factors are dealt with.
Quote from: Rachvince53 on March 06, 2025, 08:09:07 PMI agree with you on the worsening traffic situation. Franchising will simply not make any difference unless other factors are dealt with.
My other fear is job losses - if franchising is meant to sort the wheat from the chafe on viable and socially necessary bus routes, surely, and sadly, there will be job losses from all quarters, including bus drivers.
Not all bus operators will win work, especially if outsider operators like Metroline (who incidentally, are monitoring West Midlands franchising VERY closely) win routes like they have in Manchester.
Quote from: Wumpty on March 06, 2025, 08:39:07 PMMy other fear is job losses - if franchising is meant to sort the wheat from the chafe on viable and socially necessary bus routes, surely, and sadly, there will be job losses from all quarters, including bus drivers.
Not all bus operators will win work, especially if outsider operators like Metroline (who incidentally, are monitoring West Midlands franchising VERY closely) win routes like they have in Manchester.
Metroline have been the biggest mess of all in Manchester with both First and Stagecoach having to run routes for them. Some ex Stagecoach E400s are back on loan to Stagecoach to cover some Metroline work
Quote from: Tony on March 06, 2025, 08:47:37 PMMetroline have been the biggest mess of all in Manchester with both First and Stagecoach having to run routes for them. Some ex Stagecoach E400s are back on loan to Stagecoach to cover some Metroline work
it was never going to work for a non-established operator in Manchester. All the politicians and governing bodies are interested in is launching the scheme and bragging that it's a success, just because it's started.
It'll be exactly the same here too.
Quote from: Sandy Lane on March 05, 2025, 08:35:37 PMA genuine question as I have no idea what the answer will be. Does the WM Mayor use local bus services either for business or personal use?
Andy Street has traveled on the bus a numerous times, doubt the Richard Parker even knows what to do when you board a bus...
Quote from: Wumpty on March 06, 2025, 08:39:07 PMMy other fear is job losses - if franchising is meant to sort the wheat from the chafe on viable and socially necessary bus routes, surely, and sadly, there will be job losses from all quarters, including bus drivers.
Not all bus operators will win work, especially if outsider operators like Metroline (who incidentally, are monitoring West Midlands franchising VERY closely) win routes like they have in Manchester.
There will be, even the franchising document predicts the WM bus market total Pvr will shrink further even under franchising.
Quote from: winston on March 06, 2025, 11:46:29 PMThere will be, even the franchising document predicts the WM bus market total Pvr will shrink further even under franchising.
The report says that coventry will have a total PVR of 146 buses i believe that nx coventry alone has more then that amount at about 176ish buses
Quote from: Coventrybususer95 on March 07, 2025, 02:43:14 AMThe report says that coventry will have a total PVR of 146 buses i believe that nx coventry alone has more then that amount at about 176ish buses
You are mixing pvr and allocation
Quote from: winston on March 06, 2025, 11:42:52 PMAndy Street has traveled on the bus a numerous times, doubt the Richard Parker even knows what to do when you board a bus...
Yes Andy Street hence he proposed to improve Bus Prioties and enforce Bus Lanes and sort out Parking, Shame his beloved Trams ruined a lot of the roads around Brum and the Black Country, however he got it as knew they were important, Parker probably has travelled on maybe between 1 and 3 buses for the News the 11 is one I remember, possibly a 74 once and maybe another bus. He would obviously ride the 11 it's the famous or was the most famous route and longest in Europe.
The biggest challenge with Depot Franchising is people.
Suitably qualified experienced Management. A Supervisory structure that is stable, understands the individuals businesses ethos, systems of work and all this happens on one night. In effect businesses with scale (multiple depots, other employment opportunities), deploy prized "assets" and the transferring business have a huge hill to climb.
All large operators (although I believe NX have paused this for now) train huge numbers of new drivers. We train around 300 per year. Training a new driver costs in excess of £6,500 each. Every driver we train, signs an employment bond which means they need to stay in our employment for a minimum period, which under TUPE law the bond cannot be reclaimed. In Manchester, when we lost our Bolton depot - we stopped Training new drivers. We have a national school which we focused on other depots and a result the number of drivers decreased. Staff Turnover rates are a lot higher now than before COVID. Circa 40%. If you consider the impact on a market of circa 5,000 drivers with no one training for the best part of 2 years - there will become by default a massive driver shortage.
The expectation that staff will behave like sheep and are able to be transferred from one operator to another is misconceived.
I am sure anyone can appreciate when someone has worked in a business for a period of time, when they are told their employment it about to transferred. People naturally consider their own position, they look at other employment opportunities and not everyone transfers.
Some of these TUPE transfers involve people moving a distance from their current place of work. In Manchester we have enough staff, we have a stable business and we now train again. We took on 5th January 2025 30 people on TUPE. Within 4 weeks all 30 people had left. This was not our choice, and most have gone to new employment opportunities outside of the bus industry.
This is what has happened in Manchester. I am not sure why anyone expects the West Midlands to be different and ultimately this shortfall will mean if a strategy of allotting depots is adapted there will be a massive shortage of staff and ineffectively service delivery will go backwards.
When there is a shortfall of staff. What happens? Price goes up. Simple supply and demand.
Bus Businesses are long term businesses which require long term investment. The most prized asset are the people, developing people is a long term commitment and that commitment is forever and 5 year franchising with a transient operator approach doesn't encourage long term investment and development of staff.
Franchising is inevitable the only way to avoid this people issue is to move to a more London style approach.
What TFWM need to do is introduce contactless tap & go from only NX / only Metro to ALL buses and trams like how Swift Go works, then also brought into the trains when its introduced.
If they do that hopefully they can look into removing Tickets in the future, its very annoying when your at a bus stop and the fat family of 4 spend 10 minutes looking for change then your bus is late
One of the best features from a franchised network like London is you don't have to stick with one mode of transport if you've already paid, you can just tap and go for all modes of transport and be charged at the end
QuoteIf they do that hopefully they can look into removing Tickets in the future, its very annoying when your at a bus stop and the fat family of 4 spend 10 minutes looking for change then your bus is late
Nowhere near annoying as when you're stuck behind someone whose 'phone won't play ball with the reader / someone mid-call (on speaker phone, natch...) whilst trying to scan / someone who hasn't got a clue how to use their 'phone / someone doing the usual 'My 'phone's dead' or 'The ticket's on my phone, honest Guv' routine. Etc...
Need I go on? Of course, the actual annoying thing is buying a paper ticket, only to find that NXWM have been cost-cutting on the printer ink AGAIN & half of your ticket is illegible/invisible.
From what I've observed, you seem to have less trouble with Swift cards. You just make sure you don't break them by accident, as my sister had to get a replacement when that happened.
The phones for the reasons mentioned, while the contactless cards seem to depend on what's on the card itself, or does the contactless bit have to be reactivated after so many times?(Sure I got told that once, so when I had to use my debit card to get a Nbus on the 326 during the pandemic, when Nx Travel shops were shut, so I got into the habit of going into Greggs for a bacon roll & keying my pin in(still do most of the time!), thus making sure the contactless was activated.)
Quote from: Wumpty on March 06, 2025, 08:39:07 PMMy other fear is job losses - if franchising is meant to sort the wheat from the chafe on viable and socially necessary bus routes, surely, and sadly, there will be job losses from all quarters, including bus drivers.
Not all bus operators will win work, especially if outsider operators like Metroline (who incidentally, are monitoring West Midlands franchising VERY closely) win routes like they have in Manchester.
Metroline in West Midlands, that'll be interesting. NXWM has dominated this area.
Quote from: Axsn24 on March 17, 2025, 10:35:49 PMMetroline in West Midlands, that'll be interesting. NXWM has dominated this area.
For the conspiracy theorists on the forum, former engineering manager from NXWM has just joined Metroline parent company ComfortDelgro in Manchester.......
Just saying........
As for dominating the area, NX are the biggest single investor in the bus industry (arguably Diamond have gathered momentum in recent times), so that dominance has rightly been earned.
Quote from: winston on March 06, 2025, 11:42:52 PMAndy Street has traveled on the bus a numerous times, doubt the Richard Parker even knows what to do when you board a bus...
Parker doesn't know his Arsenal from his aspidistras, so finding a bus stop is a non-starter!
Quote from: Wumpty on March 18, 2025, 07:56:00 AMFor the conspiracy theorists on the forum, former engineering manager from NXWM has just joined Metroline parent company ComfortDelgro in Manchester.......
Just saying........
As for dominating the area, NX are the biggest single investor in the bus industry (arguably Diamond have gathered momentum in recent times), so that dominance has rightly been earned.
Metroline pensnett garage maybe
Quote from: karl724223 on March 18, 2025, 08:03:55 AMMetroline pensnett garage maybe
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
Can you imagine the anoraks......
"Arr cor see no Rowtmosters up Pensnett!"
Quote from: Wumpty on March 18, 2025, 11:07:22 AM:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
Can you imagine the anoraks......
"Arr cor see no Rowtmosters up Pensnett!"
Pensnett Garage is finished under franchising, thought WMCA want a new Dudley garage on corner of Peartree Lane.
Quote from: winston on March 18, 2025, 12:12:28 PMPensnett Garage is finished under franchising, thought WMCA want a new Dudley garage on corner of Peartree Lane.
Thought wrong then day ya 😂
Quote from: winston on March 18, 2025, 12:12:28 PMPensnett Garage is finished under franchising, thought WMCA want a new Dudley garage on corner of Peartree Lane.
The Franchising document states that WMCA would look to acquire or transfer the lease for Pensnett (page 390) . But it does add that the location is possibly suboptimal
Quote from: winston on March 18, 2025, 12:12:28 PMPensnett Garage is finished under franchising, thought WMCA want a new Dudley garage on corner of Peartree Lane.
I know what WMCA do want!
You could argue any of the garages are finished under franchising unless they are owned/or bought by WMCA - if they don't win tenders, then they don't need buses, nor garages, .
Quote from: cardew on March 18, 2025, 12:32:33 PMThe Franchising document states that WMCA would look to acquire or transfer the lease for Pensnett (page 390) . But it does add that the location is possibly suboptimal
WMCA will not be able to acquire PN garage only transfer the lease, LCP Properties control Pensnett Trading Estate.
The majority of PN's routes can all easily be operated from elsewhere. The PVR has shrunk over the past years or two with more & more Dudley area work moving to Diamond.
Quote from: karl724223 on March 18, 2025, 12:25:13 PMThought wrong then day ya 😂
Really, so if Rotala win the Dudley area franchise they'll move in to Pensnett depot when they have their own depot in Tividale. I think not...🤣
Based on NX's success rate from their Manchester franchise bids, it doesn't bode well....🤐
Quote from: winston on March 18, 2025, 01:17:01 PMReally, so if Rotala win the Dudley area franchise they'll move in to Pensnett depot when they have their own depot in Tividale. I think not...🤣
Based on NX's success rate from their Manchester franchise bids, it doesn't bode well....🤐
Tfwm want tividale as well didnt you know that either
And new oldbury depot to replace West Brom
Didn't you know that either it's in the document
Quote from: karl724223 on March 18, 2025, 06:10:41 PMTfwm want tividale as well didnt you know that either
And new oldbury depot to replace West Brom
Didn't you know that either it's in the document
Simon Dunn has mentioned elsewhere here that he was approached by the WMCA with a view to acquiring the Tividale site, but told them that he had no interest in doing so.
It will probably mean that TfWM will have to make him an offer he can't refuse, which results in the WMCA paying over the odds, meaning the franchising set-up costs end up being more than was originally projected.
Quote from: Stu on March 18, 2025, 07:25:25 PMSimon Dunn has mentioned elsewhere here that he was approached by the WMCA with a view to acquiring the Tividale site, but told them that he had no interest in doing so.
It will probably mean that TfWM will have to make him an offer he can't refuse, which results in the WMCA paying over the odds, meaning the franchising set-up costs end up being more than was originally projected.
Could WMCA not use a compulsionary purchase order to force him to sell?
Quote from: karl724223 on March 18, 2025, 06:10:41 PMTfwm want tividale as well didnt you know that either
And new oldbury depot to replace West Brom
Didn't you know that either it's in the document
Just because TfWM want Tividale, doesn't mean they're going to get it, its owners aren't interested in selling.
Thought you would have known that.... 🤦
Quote from: winston on March 06, 2025, 11:46:29 PMThere will be, even the franchising document predicts the WM bus market total Pvr will shrink further even under franchising.
Redundancies for Bus Drivers maybe ?. However, on NX careers site 7 garages are recruiting for new Bus Drivers ?. :huh:
Quote from: Stu on March 18, 2025, 07:25:25 PMSimon Dunn has mentioned elsewhere here that he was approached by the WMCA with a view to acquiring the Tividale site, but told them that he had no interest in doing so.
It will probably mean that TfWM will have to make him an offer he can't refuse, which results in the WMCA paying over the odds, meaning the franchising set-up costs end up being more than was originally projected.
Tividale isn't just an operational base, it's also Rotala Group HQ, plus they own the large site opposite the main depot too.
Quote from: TT90 on March 18, 2025, 09:24:11 PMRedundancies for Bus Drivers maybe ?. However, on NX careers site 7 garages are recruiting for new Bus Drivers ?. :huh:
It's still business as usual and part of their succession plan for drivers leaving/retiring.
Quote from: winston on March 18, 2025, 09:48:03 PMTividale isn't just an operational base, it's also Rotala Group HQ, plus they own the large site opposite the main depot too.
For clarity - I am not simply trying to push the price up.
I intend to work until the day I die. I turn 49 this month. I am aiming to work/live until I am 100. Therefore I have 51 years of work left.
The depot at Tividale is central to everything I want to do. Therefore no amount of money - will fill the gap of 51 years of work.
Simon
Quote from: Simon Dunn on March 19, 2025, 10:41:23 AMFor clarity - I am not simply trying to push the price up.
I intend to work until the day I die. I turn 49 this month. I am aiming to work/live until I am 100. Therefore I have 51 years of work left.
The depot at Tividale is central to everything I want to do. Therefore no amount of money - will fill the gap of 51 years of work.
Simon
I, for one Simon, never thought that. Your business has been built up steadily and strategically with a network of routes across the UK pivotal to the areas they serve.
I'm sure that WMCA (and I dare say others) would see Tividale as strategically advantageous to franchising, though it's business as usual for you, and many other bus companies until we see where this leads.
Quote from: Simon Dunn on March 19, 2025, 10:41:23 AMFor clarity - I am not simply trying to push the price up.
I intend to work until the day I die. I turn 49 this month. I am aiming to work/live until I am 100. Therefore I have 51 years of work left.
The depot at Tividale is central to everything I want to do. Therefore no amount of money - will fill the gap of 51 years of work.
Simon
You're a stand up guy, Simon
2026 responses so far to this consultation.
South Yorkshire's similar consultation garnered over 7800 responses.
https://www.route-one.net/bus/south-yorkshire-confirms-move-to-bus-franchising/
Population of WMCA area: "2.9 million"
Population of SYMCA area: "1.4 million"
That's got to be pretty disappointing.
Quote from: Stu on March 23, 2025, 08:39:06 PM2026 responses so far to this consultation.
South Yorkshire's similar consultation garnered over 7800 responses.
https://www.route-one.net/bus/south-yorkshire-confirms-move-to-bus-franchising/
Population of WMCA area: "2.9 million"
Population of SYMCA area: "1.4 million"
That's got to be pretty disappointing.
Proof that nobody cares at all what happens to the bus network if a mere 0.5% of the population even bothered to answer.
Considering that the mayor reckons franchising could work with fewer buses than there is in service now,is their a rough estimate on how many buses are needed for the Bee Network compared to before its introduction?
Quote from: Ingleboro261F on March 23, 2025, 09:10:35 PMProof that nobody cares at all what happens to the bus network if a mere 0.5% of the population even bothered to answer.
These consultations are more about box-ticking than actually shaping decisions. When only 0.5% of the population responds, it's not necessarily apathy – it's often that people sense the outcome is already decided, so why bother? If communities genuinely believed their input would lead to change, you'd see far higher engagement.
Quote from: metrocity on March 25, 2025, 01:20:48 PMThese consultations are more about box-ticking than actually shaping decisions. When only 0.5% of the population responds, it's not necessarily apathy – it's often that people sense the outcome is already decided, so why bother? If communities genuinely believed their input would lead to change, you'd see far higher engagement.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how many people take part, WMCA just need a majority of the responses to be positive then they can proceed with their plans, 'democratically decided' and all that.
Quote from: Ingleboro261F on March 23, 2025, 09:10:35 PMProof that nobody cares at all what happens to the bus network if a mere 0.5% of the population even bothered to answer.
I think it's rather more nuanced than that, to be honest. The fact that things such as the bin strike in Birmingham for example, are happening at the same time as this consultation have probably meant that people aren't as interested in the buses as opposed to the mountains of rubbish sprouting all over Birmingham. Additionally, the length of the documents made available to the public are probably too large for your average person on the street to want to read and so, they've shied away from having an opinion. Couple that with the fact that the new Metro mayor doesn't seem to be pushing for views on this via local media, radio phone-ins etc and I think you may find most people don't even know there's a consultation on. Personally, I've had this when I've worked in operators where face to face consultations are scheduled at 14:00 on a Tuesday, so you get sparse attendance and subsequent feedback due to people being at work, on the way to start the school run or concessionary passengers leaving the network before schools throw out, amongst other reasons.
It may also be for the fact and it may be an unpopular opinion, that for an urban conurbation the size of the West Midlands, most bus passengers have access to reasonable services, with decent spans of operation most days of the week and with the exception of things such as fares, Sunday provision and punctuality etc, are happy or at least satisfied with what they've got. That's not to say there's not room for improvement but for £4.80, you can purchase an NBus ticket and in theory travel from Pattingham near Wolverhampton to Coventry on as many buses as you'd want/need to use across multiple operators. I've travelled in Yorkshire towns where £6 is more the norm for a day ticket and even then, you can't travel outside of city limits, yet alone across county lines as in the West Midlands. People always moan when services get cut and the West Midlands has seen that as has everywhere else but most of the services cut have either been withdrawals of commercial duplicate routes (see Claribels 55 as an example), withdrawals of unsustainable tendered provision (such as the 93 in Birmingham) or the collapse of operators altogether (remember AM-PM travel, GRS Travel and others of the same ilk).
The way some of the narrative on franchising is spouted, you'd think NXWM and Diamond are the two biggest robber barons out there. However, unlike areas such as West Yorkshire, where Arriva looks to be running the clock, the operators of the West Midlands for the most part, provide in my opinion a reasonable level of service over a rather large area, with signs of investment in fleet, trying to solve the driver shortage and publicity and that may explain why the public response to the consultation is so lackadaisical.
As a depot manager once said to me, "Passengers never praise us when a service is 98% on time, most of the year. It's the 2% when it goes wrong, sometimes outside of our control, such as roadworks, when people bang on to their MP's and Councillors about the old days and Midland Red making sure everything was punctual through their rose tinted spectacles."
Even Sunday provision is fairly good I think if you look at the corridors out of Central Birmingham they have a frequent service, the 94/95 & 61/63 run at every 10 minutes combined 50/74 at every 8, 60 every 12.
Considering Sundays are also probably quieter generally as people are off.
The day ticket fare for the West Midlands to get from Chelmsley Wood to Bedworth is still cheaper than a return ticket I used to pay from Bedworth to Nuneaton on Stagecoach in 2002 (£5.50).
According to a report in Route One magazine, the McGill's group are questioning the viability of franchising plans in Strathclyde.
They say that transport revenue budget papers [color=var(--hyperlink-color,inherit)]issued by the Greater Manchester Combined Authority[/color] (https://www.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/media/mfcfo01k/gmca-transport-revenue-budget.pdf) (GMCA) in February shows a projected net cost of the franchised bus network there during FY2025/26 of £226 million.
Quote from: ayoungbusman on March 26, 2025, 10:59:06 AMIt may also be for the fact and it may be an unpopular opinion, that for an urban conurbation the size of the West Midlands, most bus passengers have access to reasonable services, with decent spans of operation most days of the week and with the exception of things such as fares, Sunday provision and punctuality etc, are happy or at least satisfied with what they've got.
I agree with you. The West Midlands does have a reasonably good spread of services, seven days a week, with very reasonably priced nBus tickets. Punctuality and journey times are often not brilliant, but that is mainly due to general traffic congestion which - maybe - is preceived by the general public (as well as us forum readers) to be outside operators' control.
I reckon another factor may be that, unlike in some other PTE/CA areas, there is no general feeling that a major operator in the conurbation has provided a poor service and thereby made themselves a target for politicians.
The main case for franchising in the West Midlands is the principle that there should be public control, and that in itself is not going to set the world alight.
Quote from: Justin Tyme on March 27, 2025, 10:53:09 PMThe main case for franchising in the West Midlands is the principle that there should be public control, and that in itself is not going to set the world alight.
I'd bet my house that if you stopped anyone in the street and asked out of the following three (Buses, Electricity and Water), which should come back into public control the soonest, buses would be the last of the three, most of the time.
I also think that failures such as opening stations on the Camp Hill Line on time, the delays to rebuilding Dudley Bus Station into a modern interchange and getting the Metro to Dudley and beyond, amongst other public transport capital schemes, means that people probably are inclined to believe that public control isn't the way forward and have either not left their opinion on the consultation at all or have used alternate means to disapprove (via local councillors, letters to TfWM etc), which may not get factored into the results at all.