If you had the chance to modify or add any service, what would you do?

[Pat]

There are three main issues with the 150 in Wythall meaning it is less well used than might otherwise be the case:

1) An hourly frequency is too low to attract potential passengers who have access to a car but may prefer travelling into the city by public transport. I believe the train from Wythall is also only every hour during non peak times so currently public transport there does not offer frequent enough links to Birmingham to be considered as a good alternative to the car. A more frequent service would be more attractive to passengers and increase usage.

2) The route only serves Alcester Road through Wythall, the majority of housing is not on this road, and yes while people can walk to the nearest stop on that road, it's not exactly attractive for potential passengers to have a 10-15 minute walk on top of the bus ride as opposed to using the car. A service looping round Wythall as suggested earlier would be much better (and could replace the A4 route in this area as it is quicker to go to Maypole and then get a 49 to Solihull than get the A4 direct).

3) The operator, who I think do a fine job on the routes they offer, but they lack the brand power and network that NXWM has. As is well known, the NWWM day ticket is very popular and having this offered is far more attractive than a equivalent smaller operators ticket, even if that is the same price. A NXWM route would be far more attractive as passengers would only need one ticket (whether day, week or month) to access a huge network of services, so it wouldn't just be City centre passengers this route would appeal to. As I said, I'm sure far more passengers would catch a NXWM in Wythall and change to a 49 at Maypole to Solihull rather than catch the long looping A4 route.

NXWM have the scale and network attraction to make this work, the same with Dickens Heath too.

1) You need to think why there is an hourly frequency though.  It's hourly for a reason - simply because there isn't the passenger numbers to warrant a more frequent service.

2) No matter how far or close the bus stops, it isn't necessarily going to change people's minds.  Wythall is an affluent area, and the vast majority of people will own at least one car.  The social housing you talk about makes up a small percentage of each estate's (Parklands/Regency Fields) population.  Even then, people living in those properties are likely to own a car.

3) The availability of an NX daysaver is irrelevant.  The majority of *limited* numbers who use the 150 service into Birmingham are likely to be travelling into and out of the city centre, rather than making lots of journeys.  Even then, an nBus is available (cheaper than a return from Wythall to Birmingham anyway) which would enable people to make as many connections as they need.

My whole point is, Wythall and the surrounding area already has a bus and rail connection to Birmingham, even if it is irregular.  To be honest, they are lucky to have that.  Also, and I don't know why people seem to think this, but NX coming to an area isn't always going to boost passenger numbers.  Even if they did, I can only see there being a limited, hourly frequency.  But I doubt that will happen, given the limited number of people travelling on the 150 all the way into Birmingham.

[Stu]

While this has become a lively discussion, and I don't want to stifle the debate, I do have just one question.

Does anyone here actually live in Dickens Heath or Wythall?

Its all very well coming up with ideas, but without any understanding of what its like to live there and what your experience and needs are yourself, its all a bit moot.

[Pat]

While this has become a lively discussion, and I don't want to stifle the debate, I do have just one question.

Does anyone here actually live in Dickens Heath or Wythall?

Its all very well coming up with ideas, but without any understanding of what its like to live there and what your experience and needs are yourself, its all a bit moot.

I don't live there, no, but I do know the area and have travelled on the 150 many times before.

[j789]

1) You need to think why there is an hourly frequency though.  It's hourly for a reason - simply because there isn't the passenger numbers to warrant a more frequent service.

2) No matter how far or close the bus stops, it isn't necessarily going to change people's minds.  Wythall is an affluent area, and the vast majority of people will own at least one car.  The social housing you talk about makes up a small percentage of each estate's (Parklands/Regency Fields) population.  Even then, people living in those properties are likely to own a car.

3) The availability of an NX daysaver is irrelevant.  The majority of *limited* numbers who use the 150 service into Birmingham are likely to be travelling into and out of the city centre, rather than making lots of journeys.  Even then, an nBus is available (cheaper than a return from Wythall to Birmingham anyway) which would enable people to make as many connections as they need.

My whole point is, Wythall and the surrounding area already has a bus and rail connection to Birmingham, even if it is irregular.  To be honest, they are lucky to have that.  Also, and I don't know why people seem to think this, but NX coming to an area isn't always going to boost passenger numbers.  Even if they did, I can only see there being a limited, hourly frequency.  But I doubt that will happen, given the limited number of people travelling on the 150 all the way into Birmingham.

I would argue that the main reason for an hourly frequency for the 150 is not lack of use in Wythall but more that after Wythall to Redditch is very rural with little population density and the route from Maypole to Birmingham has very high frequency competition on it. If NXWM were to run into Wythall this would be in tandem with the Maypole to City route so would be less of an issue as a higher frequency is needed on that part of the route. It would be feasible to think that an extension from the Maypole every 15-20 minutes could work with a slightly reduced number of buses going to Druids Heath terminus.

There are also more older social housing areas around Wythall, Shawfields, for example where a frequent bus service to Maypole, Kings Heath shopping centre and beyond would be useful.

The attraction of the NXWM day saver is that it could attract new passengers who currently don't use the 150. You may be right about the current passengers only going to the city and back but that doesn't mean there aren't untapped opportunities for shorter haul passengers who are currently mostly in catered for. Despite being 'outside' the West Midlands, the area is pretty much tagged onto Birmingham and most people will be familiar with the high frequency NXWM running just a mile up the road.

I have lived in this area for the last couple of years now and have heard multiple complaints about how unfair it is that there is a 4 minute frequency service to Maypole but pretty much nothing a mile further on. There is some real potential for a route with a decent frequency and NXWM would be best placed to run it as it could be combined with the normal 50 to minimise costs, something else the 150 has against it.

[Pat]

I would argue that the main reason for an hourly frequency for the 150 is not lack of use in Wythall but more that after Wythall to Redditch is very rural with little population density and the route from Maypole to Birmingham has very high frequency competition on it. If NXWM were to run into Wythall this would be in tandem with the Maypole to City route so would be less of an issue as a higher frequency is needed on that part of the route. It would be feasible to think that an extension from the Maypole every 15-20 minutes could work with a slightly reduced number of buses going to Druids Heath terminus.

There are also more older social housing areas around Wythall, Shawfields, for example where a frequent bus service to Maypole, Kings Heath shopping centre and beyond would be useful.

The attraction of the NXWM day saver is that it could attract new passengers who currently don't use the 150. You may be right about the current passengers only going to the city and back but that doesn't mean there aren't untapped opportunities for shorter haul passengers who are currently mostly in catered for. Despite being 'outside' the West Midlands, the area is pretty much tagged onto Birmingham and most people will be familiar with the high frequency NXWM running just a mile up the road.

I have lived in this area for the last couple of years now and have heard multiple complaints about how unfair it is that there is a 4 minute frequency service to Maypole but pretty much nothing a mile further on. There is some real potential for a route with a decent frequency and NXWM would be best placed to run it as it could be combined with the normal 50 to minimise costs, something else the 150 has against it.

Actually, I've seen a large number of passengers from Maypole onwards use the service to Redditch, so I'd argue that the bulk of passengers are on that section.  Whilst the Maypole - City section does pick up some people, these are always either ENCTS or travelcard holders, who are only travelling a couple of stops.

The NX daysaver in my opinion is a false economy.  For only 20p extra, you can travel on virtually every bus in the West Midlands, with a very limited number of exceptions.

With the frequency complaints, I've never seen buses through Hollywood, Drakes Cross and Wythall to be particularly busy to warrant more than an hourly frequency.  If people are complaining that they want more buses, then why are the already existing services not busy enough?

[2206]

.  If people are complaining that they want more buses, then why are the already existing services not busy enough?

I think the point is people find turn up & go services more attractive. Such as the X20/X21/X22 between City Centre and University Station, where you don't need a timetable.

[MW]

On a 4 week basis, from what I've seen online there's a £10 difference between the NX Travelcard and an nbus monthly.

Travelcard - £59.95 (online subscription)
Nbus - £69

When working class people are forking out for them and their children's bus passes, it makes all the difference when looking at season tickets and not daily tickets.

I recall in my school days there being a £10-ish difference in my nbus/Busmaster and the TWM Travelcard (Term pass).

Now whilst it's only a tenner, it makes a huge difference to some people. If you're paying for 3 bus passes, that's approx £30 a month.

NX and it's dominance over the West Midlands is a massive advantage it has over every other operator. It's definitely not a false economy.

[j789]

With the frequency complaints, I've never seen buses through Hollywood, Drakes Cross and Wythall to be particularly busy to warrant more than an hourly frequency.  If people are complaining that they want more buses, then why are the already existing services not busy enough?

But the problem always has been (even in Midland Red days on the 177/78/79) that the frequency was never high enough to attract new passengers and decades have no gone by where residents in this area have had no choice other than the car. If a higher frequency route was tried I do think this status quo could be changed as people there would see that a regular bus service could be trusted to get them from A to B. An hourly service is just not going to give any potential new passengers that security that the bus can be relied on.

Even more so today with the emissions charges, a real push on using the bus as a viable alternative needs to be made and new markets open up possibilities. Yes you could say that there has been little bus use in this area for decades but that is mostly due to the lack of a decent, regular service that would actually appeal to users. I hope a regular service will get introduced at some point and this woefully under resourced area, transport wise, will benefit and make a successful service. Worcestershire county council should likewise be willing to engage with NXWM and offer some level of financial assistance at the start to test this route out. I can only hope!

[Stu]

I think the point is people find turn up & go services more attractive. Such as the X20/X21/X22 between City Centre and University Station, where you don't need a timetable.

That is true, but those services are busy enough to warrant a 'turn up and go' frequency.

The A4 service runs hourly through Dickens Heath with single deck vehicles, and needs TfWM subsidy to keep it operational. It would simply not be viable to increase it to a 'turn up and go' frequency.

Supply and demand.

[Pat]

That is true, but those services are busy enough to warrant a 'turn up and go' frequency.

The A4 service runs hourly through Dickens Heath with single deck vehicles, and needs TfWM subsidy to keep it operational. It would simply not be viable to increase it to a 'turn up and go' frequency.

Supply and demand.

Exactly, well said Stu.  There's no point in creating the capacity, for it to be under used.  There needs to be the demand already there, but from what i've seen, there simply isn't.

But the problem always has been (even in Midland Red days on the 177/78/79) that the frequency was never high enough to attract new passengers and decades have no gone by where residents in this area have had no choice other than the car.

But people do have an alternative to the car, in the form of already existing services!

Frequency isn't always linked to passenger numbers, more so the places that it serves.  As Stu has already said, you can't create all of these services for the passenger numbers to be low. 

[Justin Tyme]

While this has become a lively discussion, and I don't want to stifle the debate, I do have just one question.

Does anyone here actually live in Dickens Heath or Wythall?

Its all very well coming up with ideas, but without any understanding of what its like to live there and what your experience and needs are yourself, its all a bit moot.

I grew up in Wythall and my father still lives there, so I'm often there.

I recall and often used hourly Midland Red Evesham - Birmingham services that came through Wythall.  They were well used for many years, requiring double deckers until the late 1970s, but not by the 1980s.

In the late 80s Your Bus started running the 50Y every 20 minutes in competition with West Midlands Travel 50.  Your Bus was based in Alcester, and the buses ran from Alcester to the Maypole in service, picking up through Wythall and charging bargain fares.  They increased bus use by Wythall residents a bit, but the main effect was to abstract passengers from Midand Red West services which were reduced as a result.

Your Bus tried  an off-peak Wythall - Birmingham service as well, with one bus, but that only lasted a year or so.  After West Midlands Travel purchased Your Bus and moved operations to Miller Street, there was initially still enough trade to justify a peak hour Alcester - Wythall - Birmingham facility using one bus (which I believed was parked overnight in Alcester), but not for long.

I sometimes used the evening peak hour WMT 50A journeys to Wythall, and the number of passengers still on after the Maypole were always in single figures.  Almost every time I used it, as soon as we took the Hollywood exit off the Maypole island, someone would come dashing down the stairs wondering why we weren't going to Druids Heath.  Both Midland Red West and, later, Worcestershire County Council improved services through Wythall but unfortunately they did not succeed.  Even then most Wythall residents could not be swayed from their cars.  I believe Worcestershire County Council fund the Dickens Heath - Wythall section of the A4 as a relatively cheap way of retaining a Wythall - Solihull service.

I now live in Shirley, but recently I have done some long walks passing through Dickens Heath.  Walking along Main Street there, where the shops and restaurants are, I have noticed that most parking are occupied.  As in Wythall there are rather more cars than pedestrians.

[Kevin]

But the problem always has been (even in Midland Red days on the 177/78/79) that the frequency was never high enough to attract new passengers and decades have no gone by where residents in this area have had no choice other than the car. If a higher frequency route was tried I do think this status quo could be changed as people there would see that a regular bus service could be trusted to get them from A to B. An hourly service is just not going to give any potential new passengers that security that the bus can be relied on.

Even more so today with the emissions charges, a real push on using the bus as a viable alternative needs to be made and new markets open up possibilities. Yes you could say that there has been little bus use in this area for decades but that is mostly due to the lack of a decent, regular service that would actually appeal to users. I hope a regular service will get introduced at some point and this woefully under resourced area, transport wise, will benefit and make a successful service. Worcestershire county council should likewise be willing to engage with NXWM and offer some level of financial assistance at the start to test this route out. I can only hope!

I would have to say the old 177/8/9 routes very much did seem more aimed at people from the Redditch estates, the current route direct into Redditch Town Centre then onto the hospital makes more sense

[j789]

Your Bus tried  an off-peak Wythall - Birmingham service as well, with one bus, but that only lasted a year or so.  After West Midlands Travel purchased Your Bus and moved operations to Miller Street, there was initially still enough trade to justify a peak hour Alcester - Wythall - Birmingham facility using one bus (which I believed was parked overnight in Alcester), but not for long.

I sometimes used the evening peak hour WMT 50A journeys to Wythall, and the number of passengers still on after the Maypole were always in single figures.  Almost every time I used it, as soon as we took the Hollywood exit off the Maypole island, someone would come dashing down the stairs wondering why we weren't going to Druids Heath.  Both Midland Red West and, later, Worcestershire County Council improved services through Wythall but unfortunately they did not succeed.  Even then most Wythall residents could not be swayed from their cars.  I believe Worcestershire County Council fund the Dickens Heath - Wythall section of the A4 as a relatively cheap way of retaining a Wythall - Solihull service.

I now live in Shirley, but recently I have done some long walks passing through Dickens Heath.  Walking along Main Street there, where the shops and restaurants are, I have noticed that most parking are occupied.  As in Wythall there are rather more cars than pedestrians.

When I moved here in the later stages of the 50A route, I do agree most buses I saw after Maypole only had 5-6 passengers on. Not a lot it seems, however, if every bus had say 5 passengers to Wythall and then got another 5 passengers on around Wythall back to Maypole then on even a 20 minute frequency that would be over 350 additional passengers a day.

For a short Wythall loop like the old 50A it would be possible to add this to the existing 50 route network with only one additional bus needed (by inter working with the 50 and a slight decrease to the route to Druids Heath terminus).

I seem to recall Tony saying elsewhere on this site that adding one bus to a route costs about £100,000. Now, I do understand the point that starting with a brand new route is a big financial risk but in this instance only needing one extra bus would make it possible to do.The stated 350 new passengers a day, 6 days a week, over a year would pay for the £100,000 cost if each passenger was only contributing £1 a journey. (6 journeys an hour- 3 outbound 3 inbound- over a 12 hour day x 6 days x 52 weeks)

Therefore, the route would only need to attract 5 new passengers per journey to be viable, not the normal 20-30 that a brand new route would require. There are enough potential passengers in Wythall to achieve this small number of extra passengers per bus.

[Tony]

When I moved here in the later stages of the 50A route, I do agree most buses I saw after Maypole only had 5-6 passengers on. Not a lot it seems, however, if every bus had say 5 passengers to Wythall and then got another 5 passengers on around Wythall back to Maypole then on even a 20 minute frequency that would be over 350 additional passengers a day.

For a short Wythall loop like the old 50A it would be possible to add this to the existing 50 route network with only one additional bus needed (by inter working with the 50 and a slight decrease to the route to Druids Heath terminus).

I seem to recall Tony saying elsewhere on this site that adding one bus to a route costs about £100,000. Now, I do understand the point that starting with a brand new route is a big financial risk but in this instance only needing one extra bus would make it possible to do.The stated 350 new passengers a day, 6 days a week, over a year would pay for the £100,000 cost if each passenger was only contributing £1 a journey. (6 journeys an hour- 3 outbound 3 inbound- over a 12 hour day x 6 days x 52 weeks)

Therefore, the route would only need to attract 5 new passengers per journey to be viable, not the normal 20-30 that a brand new route would require. There are enough potential passengers in Wythall to achieve this small number of extra passengers per bus.

Even at 10 passengers a trip it only just covers the £100,000 (average take per passenger is around £1)

[bususer28]

It's probably a bad idea but even if NXWM don't want to take the risk, surely diamond could send some of there services around Wythall, in a similar way to how they extended the 16 to West Brom which seems to have worked.