Quote from: Trident 4194 on June 15, 2021, 07:48:33 PM
The 11A/11C is definitely one of the crappest services I've ever had to travel on in terms of reliability
The route gets split into two from 4th July
Quote from: metrocity on June 16, 2021, 07:32:12 PM
The route gets split into two from 4th July
Operated by Perry Barr by any chance? Quite a few drivers are saying it now. They're still saying the 4 is moving to YW too due to Electric Charging points.
Quote from: MW on June 16, 2021, 07:40:15 PM
They're still saying the 4 is moving to YW too due to Electric Charging points.
Why would a route that doesn't use electric vehicles have to move to another garage because 'charging points'? ::)
Quote from: Stu on June 16, 2021, 08:01:23 PM
Why would a route that doesn't use electric vehicles have to move to another garage because 'charging points'? ::)
And no more electric buses anywhere near coming for Birmingham. All the electrics on order are for Coventry as announced.
Quote from: MW on June 16, 2021, 07:40:15 PM
Operated by Perry Barr by any chance? Quite a few drivers are saying it now. They're still saying the 4 is moving to YW too due to Electric Charging points.
The 4 isn't electric, so doesn't need electric charging points. And I doubt there's any room at PB for even half of the 11.
*edit* I posted as others were being posted. But there doesn't seem to be a delete button anymore 🤔
Quote from: metrocity on June 16, 2021, 07:32:12 PM
The route gets split into two from 4th July
Where are they splitting it?
So it will be one route Acocks Green to Perry Barr via Erdington & Ward End and another Acocks Green to Perry Barr via Selly Oak, Harborne, Bearwood, Handsworth or something else?
If they're splitting the 11 up, wonder whether the 8 could be next as well, as it would be the only large circular route left.
When I say "they" I'm quoting drivers gossip, referring to a post I made on the subject a few weeks ago lol. We all know drivers gossip is exactly that, gossip.
Quote from: metrocity on June 16, 2021, 07:32:12 PM
The route gets split into two from 4th July
I'm not convinced by this
Quote from: 2206 on June 16, 2021, 08:20:40 PM
Where are they splitting it?
So it will be one route Acocks Green to Perry Barr via Erdington & Ward End and another Acocks Green to Perry Barr via Selly Oak, Harborne, Bearwood, Handsworth or something else?
If they're splittig the 11 up, wander whether the 8 could be next as well, as it would be the only large circular route left.
Erdington - Acocks Green via Bearwood
Perry Barr - Acocks Green via Erdington
Quote from: metrocity on June 16, 2021, 09:07:20 PM
Erdington - Acocks Green via Bearwood
Perry Barr - Acocks Green via Erdington
Is that the lot? Leaving some lengths unserved in each direction.
This sounds bonkers to me, surely reliability could be improved by increasing key short workings in the peaks (as was done in BCT and WMPTE days?)
Quote from: don on June 16, 2021, 09:43:14 PM
Is that the lot? Leaving some lengths unserved in each direction.
This sounds bonkers to me, surely reliability could be improved by increasing key short workings in the peaks (as was done in BCT and WMPTE days?)
Nothing is unserved but passengers will need to change buses in some instances.
Quote from: metrocity on June 16, 2021, 09:49:05 PM
Nothing is unserved but passengers will need to change buses in some instances.
What are the new service numbers? And so is Erdington to Perry Barr going to be every 4 minutes then and all journeys operating end to end?
For such a big change they should have it up on the website well in advance in my opinion, but nothing approaching 2 weeks prior to 4th July?
Quote from: metrocity on June 16, 2021, 07:32:12 PM
The route gets split into two from 4th July
I'm guessing drivers said that.
VOSA search doesn't show any change.
Quote from: don on June 16, 2021, 09:43:14 PM
Is that the lot? Leaving some lengths unserved in each direction.
This sounds bonkers to me, surely reliability could be improved by increasing key short workings in the peaks (as was done in BCT and WMPTE days?)
The route is broken and desperately needs fixing. Even off peak the service is a disgrace. The problem is the 11 travels through too many heavily congested areas and due to how busy the service gets, it's practically impossible to get time back whilst running in service.
The change is happening was confirmed during an omnibus society audience with David Bradford yesterday
Perhaps the transfer of E400MMC to PB is a clue, although if there's shortages of Euro 6 deckers and with the Wolverhampton ULEZ / Euro 6 requirements impending (whenever that is!), we may yet again see the cascades of heaps on what is or will become the Outer Circle.
On a side note, E400MMC are allowed on the 8A/8C too aren't they?
Quote from: MW on June 17, 2021, 01:24:14 PM
Perhaps the transfer of E400MMC to PB is a clue, although if there's shortages of Euro 6 deckers and with the Wolverhampton ULEZ / Euro 6 requirements impending (whenever that is!), we may yet again see the cascades of heaps on what is or will become the Outer Circle.
On a side note, E400MMC are allowed on the 8A/8C too aren't they?
If the route is being split and Perry barr is having one of the split routes surely PB will have to lose a route or two to another garage to make room for more buses. It is an interesting development on a route that has been running for over 100 years. It's a shame it's come to splitting it but with traffic hotspots getting worse it does effect the 11 big time.
Don't think doubles are allowed on the 8A/C
There's a bridge on the 8A/C route that's 14' 3" (Highgate Road).
Quote from: BK63 YWP on June 17, 2021, 01:32:21 PM
If the route is being split and Perry barr is having one of the split routes surely PB will have to lose a route or two to another garage to make room for more buses. It is an interesting development on a route that has been running for over 100 years. It's a shame it's come to splitting it but with traffic hotspots getting worse it does effect the 11 big time.
Don't think doubles are allowed on the 8A/C
Has it been confirmed which garage(s) will be operated the new routes?
Quote from: Sh4318 on June 17, 2021, 01:51:18 PM
Has it been confirmed which garage(s) will be operated the new routes?
Nope hasn't been confirmed but using Perry Barr as an example
Quote from: BK63 YWP on June 17, 2021, 03:06:09 PM
Nope hasn't been confirmed but using Perry Barr as an example
Where has this moving to another garage even come from?
It is going nowhere and staying at AG
Quote from: BK63 YWP on June 17, 2021, 01:32:21 PM
Don't think doubles are allowed on the 8A/C
Platinums and 61XX at Perry Barr fit under the bridge, its been confirmed in the past. But PB strictly allocate Omnilinks to it.
PB probably wouldn't have enough double deckers for it anyway at present, as they are all needed elsewhere.
Quote from: MW on June 17, 2021, 01:24:14 PM
Perhaps the transfer of E400MMC to PB is a clue, although if there's shortages of Euro 6 deckers and with the Wolverhampton ULEZ / Euro 6 requirements impending (whenever that is!), we may yet again see the cascades of heaps on what is or will become the Outer Circle.
I guess the transfer is more to do with shortage of compliant double deckers at PB for 94, 65, 67, etc. With Gemini moving out of PB for non City Centre routes, 1/1A, 11, 72 etc.
I was on 6148 on the 94 this afternoon and its still got the notice about it being "cleaned every night by the local Acocks Green cleaning team" in it
Quote from: 2206 on June 17, 2021, 03:38:38 PM
Platinums and 61XX at Perry Barr fit under the bridge, its been confirmed in the past. But PB strictly allocate Omnilinks to it.
PB probably wouldn't have enough double deckers for it anyway at present, as they are all needed elsewhere.I guess that is more to do with the transfer is more to do with shortage of compliant double deckers at PB for 94, 65, 67, etc. With Gemini moving out to PB for non city routes, 1, 11, etc.
I was on 6148 on the 94 this afternoon and its still got the notice about it being "cleaned every night by the local Acocks Green cleaning team" in it
It's just transferred, and I guess removing stickers isn't too high priority at the moment
I got on 4526 on the 12 last month and it still had the same notice
I'm seeing all these comments on here about the Outer Circle being split and I'm still not convinced it's going to be a straight forward split just to create 2 new routes. I'm wondering if this is a temporary solution due to traffic levels due to LTN's in Kings Heath and the roadworks in Perry Barr. If so then the routes will still be numbered 11 right ?
Quote from: Steve3229vp on June 17, 2021, 06:52:52 PM
I'm seeing all these comments on here about the Outer Circle being split and I'm still convinced it's going to be a straight forward split just to create 2 new routes. I'm wondering if this is a temporary solution due to traffic levels due to LTN's in Kings Heath and the roadworks in Perry Barr. If so then the routes will still be numbered 11 right ?
2 seperate numbers for 2 routes would make sense possibly? 10 & 11?
There is the WB 10 already but I doubt that route is very well known so you could give that another number anyway.
As has been pointed out already, there are NO new registrations or variations for the 11A/C logged with DVSA.
It seems to me a lot of people are getting carried away and over-reacting to some speculation that has been thrown out there.
Quote from: Tony on June 17, 2021, 03:35:47 PM
Where has this moving to another garage even come from?
It is going nowhere and staying at AG
Just imagine the publicity it would get, as it's a famous route!
Quote from: Stu on June 17, 2021, 08:08:24 PM
As has been pointed out already, there are NO new registrations or variations for the 11A/C logged with DVSA.
It seems to me a lot of people are getting carried away and over-reacting to some speculation that has been thrown out there.
Why would the NXWM Managing Director speculate about this?
Quote from: metrocity on June 17, 2021, 10:24:59 PM
Details Attached
Seems odd the map doesn't show the red line as continuing to Acocks Green Village and it finishes at the depot. Maybe the map isn't 100% accurate on that I guess?
Also another question is as the red route isn't coming from Fox & Goose like the 11's all currently do, that'd mean it won't be able to serve the current stop in Erdington won't it, the one on Wood End Road? Which stop will it use in Erdington? As if you have a situation where some services towards Perry Barr use one stop and others use another, surely not very good, so i'm guessing both routes would have to serve the same stop.
Quote from: metrocity on June 17, 2021, 10:24:59 PM
Why would the NXWM Managing Director speculate about this?
I think announcing it first to the Omnibus Society is very poor form
Quote from: 2206 on June 17, 2021, 10:29:07 PM
Seems odd the map doesn't show the red line as continuing to Acocks Green Village and it finishes at the depot. Maybe the map isn't 100% accurate on that I guess?
Also another question is as the red route isn't coming from Fox & Goose like the 11's all currently do, that'd mean it won't be able to serve the current stop in Erdington won't it, the one on Wood End Road? Which stop will it use in Erdington? As if you have a situation where some services towards Perry Barr use one stop and others use another, surely not very good, so i'm guessing both routes would have to serve the same stop.
What map are you referring to?
Quote from: DJ on June 17, 2021, 11:01:36 PM
What map are you referring to?
metrocity posted a map with a red route and blue route and then took it down.
Must have been told to remove it lol.
We'll just have to wait for the official announcement unless anybody screenshotted it.
A variation has been published on VOSA
Have you got a link? Anything else of interest submitted?
Quote from: MW on June 17, 2021, 11:38:21 PM
Must have been told to remove it lol.
We'll just have to wait for the official announcement unless anybody screenshotted it.
im pretty sure this is speculation but as tony says Perry barr isnt involved.
Quote from: Jack D on June 18, 2021, 02:29:09 PM
A variation has been published on VOSA
Quote from: gc802002 on June 18, 2021, 03:03:53 PM
Have you got a link? Anything else of interest submitted?
See: https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk/search/find-registered-local-bus-services/details/579562/
But it doesn't really reveal anything, other than a possible timetable change?
Quote from: Stu on June 18, 2021, 05:23:12 PM
See: https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk/search/find-registered-local-bus-services/details/579562/
But it doesn't really reveal anything, other than a possible timetable change?
To be honest if such a major change was taking place at the beginning of July, I would have thought that it would have been announced publicly by now.
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on June 20, 2021, 08:21:29 PM
To be honest if such a major change was taking place at the beginning of July, I would have thought that it would have been announced publicly by now.
Yeah I knew this was pure speculation as of 11 got split up its basically useless and its going to stay the same. Just 2 different routes.
Maybe it's as simple as reducing full circle journeys and having lots of short e type journeys on core sections . Do like speculating when procrastinating at work.
Quote from: monkeyjoe on June 21, 2021, 07:42:25 AM
Maybe it's as simple as reducing full circle journeys and having lots of short e type journeys on core sections . Do like speculating when procrastinating at work.
The new timetable is now on NX's website
So essentially the A side will run Acocks Green to Perry Barr with the C side running Acocks Green to Erdington?
Tbh I didn't expect the off peak journeys to be broken up, as the route is fine during the evenings/late evening.
I expected significantly more E journeys but still a couple of full journeys every hour.
Quote from: MW on June 21, 2021, 12:27:45 PM
So essentially the A side will run Acocks Green to Perry Barr with the C side running Acocks Green to Erdington?
Tbh I didn't expect the off peak journeys to be broken up, as the route is fine during the evenings/late evening.
I expected significantly more E journeys but still a couple of full journeys every hour.
They should have given the East Birmingham route a different number 10 or 90 - to make it clear to passengers the new routes don't run beyond Perry Barr/Erdington
A & C aren't really needed now its no longer a circular route anymore surely.
Quote from: 2206 on June 21, 2021, 12:35:46 PM
They should have given the East Birmingham route a different number 10 or 90.
A & C aren't really needed now its no longer a circular route anymore surely.
To do this every bus stop flag would need changing. Not a modest amount of money !
Quote from: metrocity on June 21, 2021, 12:37:19 PM
To do this every bus stop flag would need changing. Not a modest amount of money !
I'd think there'd be less confusion if it had a different number.
More surprising though is the traveline WM timetable is saying that both Perry Barr and Ward End bound services are going to stop at the same stop in Erdington. Which sounds a rather stupid idea if they are correct. Stop EJ. Both should have separate stops to avoid confusion I think, otherwise some people might end up getting on the bus the wrong way.
I for one am very confused.
I see no timetable on the NX website, so I went to the TfWM site and found a timetable valid from 4 July on there:
https://journeyplanner.networkwestmidlands.com/Timetables/Download/cen_3311A_A_H_y11_31/31/National%20Express%20West%20Midlands_11A/False
https://journeyplanner.networkwestmidlands.com/Timetables/Download/cen_3311C_A_H_y11_38/38/National%20Express%20West%20Midlands_11C/False
(Links may ask you to download a PDF as that's how they seem to do it at TfWM)
Both of which suggest that the route is running Perry Barr - Erdington via Perry Barr (basically covering the Perry Barr - Erdington section twice).
Surely I must be reading that wrong?
Theres an overlap.
See it this way 11n 2 sections
Section 1. Bus leaves Acocks green as an 11A running through Yardley Fox & goose Erdington to Perry Barr. It then turns around & does the 11C back to Acocks green.
Meanwhile Another 11A does section 2
It leaves Erdington through Perry barr harborne cotteridge & kings heath to Acocks green. It the turns round & does the 11C back to Erdington.
This gives a terminus point & more important layover recovery time for the buses which should improve reliability
Quote from: metrocity on June 21, 2021, 12:21:34 PM
The new timetable is now on NX's website
The only timetable I can see is dated 6th June. Has it been removed?
I see what you're saying, but to me the timetable is implying something else.
If you look at these times, for instance from the 11A Monday-Friday timetable:
Bus leaves Six Ways Erdington at 0836
Bus reaches Shirley Road (after Acocks Green) at 1032
Scroll down a couple of pages
Bus departs Shirley Road (after Acocks Green) at 1032
Bus terminates at Birchfield Road at 1119.
Then the bus would turn around and do an 11C journey starting either at 1119 or 1127, depending on layover or not, terminating ultimately at its second pass through Erdington.
That way, the full circle would be maintained on every other journey from Perry Barr to Erdington and vice Versa.
Quote from: Gareth on June 21, 2021, 05:10:02 PM
The only timetable I can see is dated 6th June. Has it been removed?
Yes it has, I saw it a lunchtime today and now it's gone, but's here is the 11A from traveline http://www.travelinemidlands.co.uk/wmtis/TTB/EFA03__00001ce7_TP.pdf
and the 11C http://www.travelinemidlands.co.uk/wmtis/TTB/EFA03__0000120e_TP.pdf
Quote from: Gareth on June 21, 2021, 05:10:02 PM
The only timetable I can see is dated 6th June. Has it been removed?
Try https://nxbus.co.uk/media/5889/b11a_04jul21.pdf
Quote from: ellspurs on June 21, 2021, 05:13:44 PM
I see what you're saying, but to me the timetable is implying something else.
If you look at these times, for instance from the 11A Monday-Friday timetable:
Bus leaves Six Ways Erdington at 0836
Bus reaches Shirley Road (after Acocks Green) at 1032
Scroll down a couple of pages
Bus departs Shirley Road (after Acocks Green) at 1032
Bus terminates at Birchfield Road at 1119.
Then the bus would turn around and do an 11C journey starting either at 1119 or 1127, depending on layover or not, terminating ultimately at its second pass through Erdington.
That way, the full circle would be maintained on every other journey from Perry Barr to Erdington and vice Versa.
11S from Acocks Green to Ward End, then goes onto 11A all the way back round to Acocks Green I noticed. So 1 bus there running the full circle Acocks Green to Acocks Green. There was a platinum on 11S today as well, 6708.
Quote from: monkeyjoe on June 21, 2021, 05:56:17 PM
So is the section between erdington and Perry Barr really the busiest part of the route? Or is it just logistics of what they are trying to achieve ?
A lot of them are all completly full and rammed heading up Bromford Lane towards Fox & Goose in the evening All seats taken on every nearly every single one of them every day. Such as 4276 rammed this evening.
So is the section between erdington and Perry Barr really the busiest part of the route? Or is it just logistics of what they are trying to achieve ?
I think there's been a bit too much over thinking about all this, It's obvious this timetable has been introduced because of delays in Perry Barr due to long term roadworks and the LTN's in Kings Heath. there will still be an Outer Circle, it will still be 11A/11C with 11E only needed to be shown when around half of the circle is left to complete. There's no need for new route numbers, there is no split of the route. it's just a timetable change....that's all it is !
Quote from: Steve3229vp on June 21, 2021, 06:06:16 PM
I think there's been a bit too much over thinking about all this, It's obvious this timetable has been introduced because of delays in Perry Barr due to long term roadworks and the LTN's in Kings Heath. there will still be an Outer Circle, it will still be 11A/11C with 11E only needed to be shown when around half of the circle is left to complete. There's no need for new route numbers, there is no split of the route. it's just a timetable change....that's all it is !
If they are using 11E it makes it even worse I think. So all the Perry Barr bound journeys heading through Erdington on Stop EJ will be displaying 11E Perry Barr.
11E to Acocks Green Depot turns up in the evening heading the other way (As a lot of them do run back to the Depot as 11E) and someone gets onboard not knowing the difference.
Having both services stop at the same stop is probably one of the most stupid changes ever to be introduced I think.
Good idea would be instead of PB journeys using EJ, to move the stop from the current Wood End Road to the other side of the island Resevoir Road, but there probably isn't room for buses to terminate there?
Quote from: Steve3229vp on June 21, 2021, 06:06:16 PM
I think there's been a bit too much over thinking about all this, It's obvious this timetable has been introduced because of delays in Perry Barr due to long term roadworks and the LTN's in Kings Heath. there will still be an Outer Circle, it will still be 11A/11C with 11E only needed to be shown when around half of the circle is left to complete. There's no need for new route numbers, there is no split of the route. it's just a timetable change....that's all it is !
Maybe call it Disjointed Circle rather than Outer Circle :)
I am assuming the disjointed circle (Love that name!) , will only be a temporary measure?
I'm confused here. Is the route actually being split into two sections, or is it still a complete circle with recovery time at Perry Barr/Erdington?
Quote from: Pat on June 21, 2021, 06:36:04 PM
I'm confused here. Is the route actually being split into two sections, or is it still a complete circle with recovery time at Perry Barr/Erdington?
Could be running
Perry Barr - Erdington - Ward End - Acocks Green - Kings Heath - Selly Oak - Bearwood - Handsworth - Perry Barr - Erdington. Turn around at Erdington and go back the other way.
Only one journey runs Ward End, Bromford Lane through Perry Barr to Handsworth all day, the 15:59, so not really a complete circle.
Though that hasn't been confirmed the above to the passengers yet, so maybe not and they might keep them separate.
If the public can now board the school services again though, in September maybe 11S and X2S, should return to being the 11A and X2 respectively like they were in the past.
Have to say, like a number of other people, I am totally confused by all this.
If the route needed changing, then change it, but to continue to use 11A/11C/11E is utter madness.
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on June 21, 2021, 07:54:15 PM
Have to say, like a number of other people, I am totally confused by all this.
If the route needed changing, then change it, but to continue to use 11A/11C/11E is utter madness.
The route isn't being changed though, just the majority if vehicles won't run the full route. I haven't seen you asking for the Walsall terminators on the X51 to be renumbered.
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on June 21, 2021, 07:54:15 PM
Have to say, like a number of other people, I am totally confused by all this.
If the route needed changing, then change it, but to continue to use 11A/11C/11E is utter madness.
It costs around £75 to change a bus stop flag. There are a lot of bus stops on the 11 in both directions !
Quote from: Tony on June 21, 2021, 08:06:12 PM
The route isn't being changed though, just the majority if vehicles won't run the full route. I haven't seen you asking for the Walsall terminators on the X51 to be renumbered.
How many journeys will still run the full route ?
Quote from: Tony on June 21, 2021, 08:06:12 PM
The route isn't being changed though, just the majority if vehicles won't run the full route. I haven't seen you asking for the Walsall terminators on the X51 to be renumbered.
Is it operating as:
1.) Perry Barr - Erdington via Perry Barr as
@ellspurs was suggesting
or
2.) Perry Barr to Acocks Green & Erdington to Acocks Green via City Hospital?
Walsall terminators on X51 and Falcon Lodge terminators on the X4 are basically short journeys of the main route, whereas with 2. they'd be separate routes largely.
Quote from: Tony on June 21, 2021, 08:06:12 PM
The route isn't being changed though, just the majority if vehicles won't run the full route. I haven't seen you asking for the Walsall terminators on the X51 to be renumbered.
According to the published timetables,
no buses will run the complete route.
Quote from: Steveminor on June 21, 2021, 04:43:20 PM
Theres an overlap.
See it this way 11n 2 sections
Section 1. Bus leaves Acocks green as an 11A running through Yardley Fox & goose Erdington to Perry Barr. It then turns around & does the 11C back to Acocks green.
Meanwhile Another 11A does section 2
It leaves Erdington through Perry barr harborne cotteridge & kings heath to Acocks green. It the turns round & does the 11C back to Erdington.
This gives a terminus point & more important layover recovery time for the buses which should improve reliability
Thanks for that Steve, I too think some people are reading to much into this, and maybe its the way the timetable has been presented that is causing confusion.
From a cursory look at the timetable from TfWM, both the 11A and 11C look like they are still operating as a 'circular', but new 'layover' points have been added at Erdington and Perry Barr.
It might be the case that buses terminate there, and then turn around to go back the other way. Or they just terminate there for a period of time before continuing on their way.
Its been a while since I've travelled on the 11A/C myself, but I know for a period of time this was already happening at Acocks Green, where buses would layover sometimes for up to 10 minutes. On many occasions there would already be another bus just ahead waiting, which 'through passengers' were invited to change onto.
Some people found it an inconvenience, but many didn't really mind.
Quote from: Stu on June 21, 2021, 08:33:03 PM
Or they just terminate there for a period of time before continuing on their way.
Its been a while since I've travelled on the 11A/C myself, but I know for a period of time this was already happening at Acocks Green, where buses would layover sometimes for up to 10 minutes. On many occasions there would already be another bus just ahead waiting, which 'through passengers' were invited to change onto.
I can't see any journey on the timetable that is presented as running from Ward End/Stechford/Yardley through to Handsworth from the way its presented, so I don't think they will be running through.
They do layover in Acocks Green as that is basically the terminus, and then they started there next trip but thats not what seems to be suggested as happening here.
The post you quoted seems to suggest it as 2. Perry Barr to Acocks Green & Erdington to Acocks Green via City Hospital
One quick question about all this: what is the goal- to break up the route to improve reliability or increase the frequency between Erdington and Perry Barr?
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on June 21, 2021, 08:18:48 PM
According to the published timetables, no buses will run the complete route.
Quote from: 2206 on June 21, 2021, 08:35:21 PM
I can't see any journey on the timetable that is presented as running from Ward End/Stechford/Yardley through to Handsworth from the way its presented, so I don't think they will be running through.
If anyone can find a way to present a timetable for a circular service with multiple terminus points in a 'linear' format that isn't confusing, then I'm sure both TfWM and NX Bus would be all ears!
Quote from: Stu on June 21, 2021, 08:48:19 PM
If anyone can find a way to present a timetable for a circular service with multiple terminus points in a 'linear' format that isn't confusing, then I'm sure both TfWM and NX Bus would be all ears!
@Stu , the problem is, if it's confusing to us, then how can the gereral public be expected to read it?
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on June 21, 2021, 08:52:17 PM
@Stu , the problem is, if it's confusing to us, then how can the gereral public be expected to read it?
The outer circle timetable has always been one of the least picked up timetables by the general public due to frequency and unreliability anyway. So everyone will do exactly as they do now and walk to the bus stop and wait. And if this works they will be happy because there will be less big gaps. Of course, the few people wanting to go from Bromford to Handsworth, or through Acocks Green will wonder where their through service has gone, but the vast majority of the passengers won't notice anything has happened. Now of course if the numbers had been changed that would make people notice when no 11s turned up at their stop
Quote from: Tony on June 21, 2021, 08:59:43 PM
The outer circle timetable has always been one of the least picked up timetables by the general public due to frequency and unreliability anyway. So everyone will do exactly as they do now and walk to the bus stop and wait. And if this works they will be happy because there will be less big gaps. Of course, the few people wanting to go from Bromford to Handsworth, or through Acocks Green will wonder where their through service has gone, but the vast majority of the passengers won't notice anything has happened. Now of course if the numbers had been changed that would make people notice when no 11s turned up at their stop
So none through Acocks Green as well, quite a few people travelled through from my past experience.
I would still think a change of number would be best in that case. If its no longer a circular keeping the 11A/11C/11E and having 2 routes with the same numbers sounds bizare.
If not one as the 10 or 90 and one as the 11, then you could even just have one route as the 11 in both directions and the other as the 11A, changing the letter instead.
It would hardly be the first time they've changed the numbers such as when longstanding 900/957 were changed to the X1/X2 , 902/904/905 to to X3/X4/X5 and 37 to the 4.
Destination displays including the side ones could show the likes of "Change at Acocks Green for Yardley and beyond". Yes, I know some people don't read them. it's a pity that a 100% next stop announcement equipped fleet for the 11 is a while away yet!
So you couldn't do Swan to kings heath for an example? Fair few years since I used it traffic most horrendous these days
Quote from: 2206 on June 21, 2021, 09:05:10 PM
So none through Acocks Green as well, quite a few people travelled through from my past experience.
I would still think a change of number would be best in that case. If its no longer a circular keeping the 11A/11C/11E and having 2 routes with the same numbers
It's not two routes. It's one overlapping route. London Transport have done similar for many years
Quote from: Tony on June 21, 2021, 09:42:56 PM
It's not two routes. It's one overlapping route. London Transport have done similar for many years
From the way its been presented 2 routes, they have decided to give the same number to, overlapping on a very small (relative to the rest of the current route) section between Erdington and Perry Barr. For the vast majority its 2 separate routes.
So no Swan to Kings Heath as
@monkeyjoe says.
Thats also a bit like trying to say the 23/24, 55/94 or X3/X4/X5 are one single overlapping route, because they share sections of route.
Quote from: 2206 on June 21, 2021, 09:05:10 PM
So none through Acocks Green as well, quite a few people travelled through from my past experience.
Quote from: monkeyjoe on June 21, 2021, 09:40:44 PM
So you couldn't do Swan to kings heath for an example? Fair few years since I used it traffic most horrendous these days
You can still travel through, its just you may need to change onto another bus to continue your journey, or there'll be a wait in Acocks Green.
Quote from: Stu on June 22, 2021, 07:11:28 AM
You can still travel through, its just you may need to change onto another bus to continue your journey, or there'll be a wait in Acocks Green.
When I say travel through I mean on a through direct bus. With no changing.
As that was also the idea of the cross city routes, so people can travel through without having to change I think. I wonder if those will ever happen?
They'll happen because they are being touted as improving air quality by reducing the number of buses in the city centre - whether they last is another matter.
https://nxbus.co.uk/west-midlands/service-updates/11a11c-outer-circle-route-changes
Quote from: metrocity on June 22, 2021, 11:53:56 AM
https://nxbus.co.uk/west-midlands/service-updates/11a11c-outer-circle-route-changes
"There will be a stop change in Erdington as buses will no longer use the Wood End Lane stop. Buses will now use the 11C stop on Sutton New Road, near to Big John's."
So they've confirmed this, people will be getting on the 11A when they want the 11C in Erdington and vice versa. People are obviously going to be confused by that. Clearly no logic with some of these changes.
The main part I took from this is that the changes are temporary. Due to the Perry Barr roadworks
Quote from: metrocity on June 22, 2021, 11:53:56 AM
https://nxbus.co.uk/west-midlands/service-updates/11a11c-outer-circle-route-changes
This makes more sense now. So both routes will be split into two sections:
11A
Section 1 - Acocks Green to Perry Barr
Section 2 - Erdington to Acocks Green
11C
Section 1 - Acocks Green to Erdington
Section 2 - Perry Barr to Acocks Green
Quote from: 2206 on June 22, 2021, 11:57:39 AM
So they've confirmed this, people will be getting on the 11A when they want the 11C in Erdington and vice versa. People are obviously going to be confused by that. Clearly no logic with some of these changes.
The only people that will be confused are the ones who don't pay attention to what the display on the front of the bus says.
Quote from: Stu on June 22, 2021, 07:14:03 PM
The only people that will be confused are the ones who don't pay attention to what the display on the front of the bus says.
And then there will be people who don't know what the letters mean, as you will have the 11A to Acocks Green and the 11C to Acocks Green, going completly different ways from the same stop. When its been operating one way for so long people won't be expecting it to change, so people might get on without realising.
It goes against operating a simple and easy to understand network, that has been moved towards over the last few years, 23/24 to Harborne, X20/X21/X22 to QE/Uni. So I think its somewhat of a backwards change.
And I guess it might be simple for you to understand as a bus enthusiast, but whether it is for the general public is another matter.
Sounds like some clever software has worked it all out, sure will go back to normal once works are finished etc. Maybe a bit like the scaled down version ie 55.
One thing to note on the route number is the recharge factor.
Tfwm add a charge for changing the flags if the service numbers change & on a route like the 11A/C this charge would be quite considerable. Since it's only temporary it makes financial sense to NOT change the number
Currently do the 11's terminate as such, like they keep going round & round the circle, until either the bus or driver needs to change, or returns to depot?
The reason I ask is a few years ago, I took a trip on the Circle, basically just for the sheer hell of it.
I got on at Erdington & continued to Acocks Green depot, where we were told to change buses to continue our journey.
What is the difference between that and what will happen in 'future ' for now?
Quote from: Westy on June 22, 2021, 10:02:22 PM
Currently do the 11's terminate as such, like they keep going round & round the circle, until either the bus or driver needs to change, or returns to depot?
The reason I ask is a few years ago, I took a trip on the Circle, basically just for the sheer hell of it.
I got on at Erdington & continued to Acocks Green depot, where we were told to change buses to continue our journey.
What is the difference between that and what will happen in 'future ' for now?
Drivers change with passengers onboard. No termination point, though they do layover at Acocks Green Village.
New routes are 1 Perry Barr to Acocks Green and 2. Erdington to Acocks Green via Bearwood.
The bus you were on might have had a fault or been adjusted or something.
One time someone had spilt an alcoholic drink over the floor on the 11C, so the driver drove it up to the depot 11A stop and mopped the bus meenwhile a load of passengers boarded the service wanting to go to the Fox & Goose while the driver was getting the mop, back down to Acocks Green Village and turned around to head the other way. And there'd been enough layover time for it to depart on time. And after a few stops some elderly women were shouting at the driver that he is going the wrong way, then more people came down the stairs as they realised they are on the wrong bus.
Highlights the problem the Erdington stop is going to cause. To them they saw 11 and just got on.
Quote from: Westy on June 22, 2021, 10:02:22 PM
Currently do the 11's terminate as such, like they keep going round & round the circle, until either the bus or driver needs to change, or returns to depot?
The reason I ask is a few years ago, I took a trip on the Circle, basically just for the sheer hell of it.
I got on at Erdington & continued to Acocks Green depot, where we were told to change buses to continue our journey.
What is the difference between that and what will happen in 'future ' for now?
If the bus wasn't an 11E that was terminating at Acocks Green, you would have got transferred to another bus for a number of possible reasons such as no relief driver or the bus running very late.
Quote from: Sh4318 on June 22, 2021, 12:03:15 PM
The main part I took from this is that the changes are temporary. Due to the Perry Barr roadworks
Yep, clearly states that it's a temporary change due to the ongoing works in Perry Barr. Would be madness to change route numbers. It's really not complicated.
Quote from: Mike K on June 22, 2021, 11:11:39 PM
Yep, clearly states that it's a temporary change due to the ongoing works in Perry Barr. Would be madness to change route numbers. It's really not complicated.
The roadworks are on schedule, and should be completed by the end of the year.
Quote from: Stu on June 21, 2021, 08:33:03 PM
Thanks for that Steve, I too think some people are reading to much into this, and maybe its the way the timetable has been presented that is causing confusion.
From a cursory look at the timetable from TfWM, both the 11A and 11C look like they are still operating as a 'circular', but new 'layover' points have been added at Erdington and Perry Barr.
It might be the case that buses terminate there, and then turn around to go back the other way. Or they just terminate there for a period of time before continuing on their way.
Its been a while since I've travelled on the 11A/C myself, but I know for a period of time this was already happening at Acocks Green, where buses would layover sometimes for up to 10 minutes. On many occasions there would already be another bus just ahead waiting, which 'through passengers' were invited to change onto.
Some people found it an inconvenience, but many didn't really mind.
Drivers take the mic at Acocks green
Quote from: bbs on June 22, 2021, 11:32:07 PM
Drivers take the mic at Acocks green
The issue at Acocks Green is drivers change over at the relief point which can take a few minutes. The next stop (AG Village on 11A) is a timing point and there's usually a few minutes to wait there too. Same as reverse for the 11C.
I know that some drivers drag their heels when taking over because they know they'll be early on the other side of the route/further down the line. From a passenger point of view this can seem like wasted time I guess. This is why having a terminus is so much better. On normal routes you don't tend to see these delays because layover occurs at the ends of the route.
I just noticed this on the NX facebook page. I guess these people who answer route queries, etc for NXWM must have no idea what they are on about, as i'm fairly sure the East route is running Acocks Green through to Perry Barr. So they're giving out wrong information to passengers.
"Amy Coughlan Ok sorry please help me National Express West Midlands, I'm travelling from the fox and goose to Witton , do I get to stay on same bus still or do I have to switch over at erdington"
"National Express West Midlands Hi Amy, you will need to change buses when you arrive into Erdington."
Just a thought I had about transfers and tickets:
The NXbus website says that you don't need to buy another ticket if you need to change bus to get to your destination, which is fair enough.
But what stops somebody from buying a single on another NX service and just showing that to the driver at Acocks Green, Perry Barr or Erdington?
Will singles on the 11 now need to be printed off as 11A(or C) single?
Quote from: mesub on June 23, 2021, 03:48:41 PM
Just a thought I had about transfers and tickets:
The NXbus website says that you don't need to buy another ticket if you need to change bus to get to your destination, which is fair enough.
But what stops somebody from buying a single on another NX service and just showing that to the driver at Acocks Green, Perry Barr or Erdington?
Will singles on the 11 now need to be printed off as 11A(or C) single?
All tickets have the service number, journey number, etc on them.
So if it doesn't match up when the inspector checks it you can be fined I think.
Tickets being checked on 55/94, 14, X12/X70, 66 yesterday.
Quote from: mesub on June 23, 2021, 03:48:41 PM
Just a thought I had about transfers and tickets:
The NXbus website says that you don't need to buy another ticket if you need to change bus to get to your destination, which is fair enough.
But what stops somebody from buying a single on another NX service and just showing that to the driver at Acocks Green, Perry Barr or Erdington?
Will singles on the 11 now need to be printed off as 11A(or C) single?
Drivers tend not to look at the tickets. Certainly when the old style tickets were in use and most machines only printed faint drivers couldn't read the tickets anyway.
Quote from: 2206 on June 23, 2021, 03:56:49 PM
All tickets have the service number, journey number, etc on them.
So if it doesn't match up when the inspector checks it you can be fined I think.
Tickets being checked on 55/94, 14, X12/X70, 66 yesterday.
Ah, I use a swift card so didn't know. Thanks.
NX Bus have updated their article with some additional information.
https://nxbus.co.uk/west-midlands/service-updates/11a11c-outer-circle-route-changes
They advise passengers on the 11C travelling beyond Erdington that it is 'easier' to change buses at Stockland Green rather than at Erdington.
on 6138 a bunch of flyers have been ziptagged to the handle bar at the front of the bus about the changes letting people grab one and read one
Any word on how the changes to the 11 are going?
Quote from: sonic84 on July 05, 2021, 09:10:16 PM
Any word on how the changes to the 11 are going?
yeah other than the dest it's all normal to be honest.
Quote from: bbs on July 05, 2021, 11:31:58 PM
yeah other than the dest it's all normal to be honest.
boarded a 11C at ward end that was 56 mins late all 11 were stuck together on bromford lane and most come back the opposite way as NIS
Yeah was very nice of Birmingham City Council to start roadworks at the Bromford on the same day as the change nulifying all the gains that nx could make with the change
On the nxbus website they say they worked with council, so surely would known about these roadworks too??
Quote from: monkeyjoe on July 07, 2021, 06:27:02 PM
On the nxbus website they say they worked with council, so surely would known about these roadworks too??
Only with the Perry Barr roadworks, nothing to do with Bromford.
I understand that but surely if they council had any common sense they would informed nx bus at the same time, ummm maybe not it is BCC I'm referring too.
Quote from: monkeyjoe on July 07, 2021, 07:29:05 PM
I understand that but surely if they council had any common sense they would informed nx bus at the same time, ummm maybe not it is BCC I'm referring too.
Of course they do. All roadworks are notified to bus companies in advance except emergency one