This route is beyond a joke. How the flaming hell you get so many E workings at 12:00 is ridiculous. I understand peak times traffic may be crap, but during the day it's stupid. Always seems to be 3 running together and I often end up waiting 20 minutes+ for a rammed e400mmc to arrive. I witnessed 2 E workings today and they were both at 11:40 heading in the same direction. One to harborne and one to bearwood. If you can't run the route split the stupid route. Unfortunately them tatty blue buses don't run no where near frequently enough to be of any use to me.
That's the beauty of the 11 pal. It's always been like that lol
Quote from: Trident 4194 on January 30, 2020, 07:40:58 PM
This route is beyond a joke. How the flaming hell you get so many E workings at 12:00 is ridiculous. I understand peak times traffic may be crap, but during the day it's stupid. Always seems to be 3 running together and I often end up waiting 20 minutes+ for a rammed e400mmc to arrive. I witnessed 2 E workings today and they were both at 11:40 heading in the same direction. One to harborne and one to bearwood. If you can't run the route split the stupid route. Unfortunately them tatty blue buses don't run no where near frequently enough to be of any use to me.
You do understand the route this service runs?
If the service is encountering delays, what would you expect AVL to do? Do nothing and let the service grind to a halt? Or adjust journeys (short -E workings) to get buses back elsewhere on the route to fill the gaps?
Quote from: Stu on January 30, 2020, 07:51:31 PM
You do understand the route this service runs?
If the service is encountering delays, what would you expect AVL to do? Do nothing and let the service grind to a halt? Or adjust journeys (short -E workings) to get buses back elsewhere on the route to fill the gaps?
These E workings never seem to fill the 20 minute + gaps I end up enduring on a daily basis. I used to see 11 turning left from the hagley road to the Lordswood road to fill in delays, nowadays there seems no such thing. I dread to think what the % ontime performance is for the service.
so
@Trident 4194 what would be your solution to the problem?
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on January 30, 2020, 08:26:46 PM
so @Trident 4194 what would be your solution to the problem?
Split the route in two is solution A. Improve the timetable is solution B - even if it meant buses would run every 10 minutes but a lot more reliably, similar to what they did on the PN9. Solution C would be to have short runnings or shuttle services between key places, e.g. between Dudley road and cotteridge.
Quote from: Trident 4194 on January 30, 2020, 07:40:58 PM
Unfortunately them tatty blue buses don't run no where near frequently enough to be of any use to me.
You mean social travel? They always seem to run at random times.
Quote from: Trident 4194 on January 30, 2020, 08:10:39 PM
These E workings never seem to fill the 20 minute + gaps I end up enduring on a daily basis. I used to see 11 turning left from the hagley road to the Lordswood road to fill in delays, nowadays there seems no such thing. I dread to think what the % ontime performance is for the service.
You endure 20+ min gaps on your side of the city, I used to have to endure such gaps on my side of the city - when I lived in South Yardley.
Perhaps you don't see 'fill-in' buses coming down the Hagley Road to turn left onto Lordswood Road because those buses don't go that way because of congestion at Five Ways and along Hagley Road?
Do you know which garage runs the 11A/11C service and thus from where the buses have to travel?
Don't get me wrong, I do have to use the Outer Circle myself on occasion, and I know that its not perfect.
But I do accept that it is a 26 mile long route, that travels through all of Birmingham's outer suburbs, and crosses practically every main trunk route in and out of the city centre.
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on January 30, 2020, 08:26:46 PM
so @Trident 4194 what would be your solution to the problem?
The solution is probably to break up the Outer Circle into shorter, more manageable routes, but I too would like to hear their thoughts on how this should be done.
Quote from: mesub on January 30, 2020, 08:39:41 PM
You mean social travel? They always seem to run at random times.
I saw one of those in Selly Oak today going to the Dudley Road but I could've sworn they spelt Dudley wrong on the display.
Quote from: Trident 4194 on January 30, 2020, 08:10:39 PM
These E workings never seem to fill the 20 minute + gaps I end up enduring on a daily basis. I used to see 11 turning left from the hagley road to the Lordswood road to fill in delays, nowadays there seems no such thing. I dread to think what the % ontime performance is for the service.
It's a 2 and a half hour route - on a good day, with a very high PVR and serves several roads that are either heavily congested or are having work done. I couldn't even begin to suggest a solution or an alternative
Quote from: MasterPlan on January 30, 2020, 08:43:39 PM
I saw one of those in Selly Oak today going to the Dudley Road but I could've sworn they spelt Dudley wrong on the display.
Yes they spell it dudely I believe 😂😂
Quote from: Sh4318 on January 30, 2020, 08:49:23 PM
It's a 2 and a half hour route - on a good day, with a very high PVR and serves several roads that are either heavily congested or are having work done. I couldn't even begin to suggest a solution or an alternative
Exactly and it simply is not viable route. I'm surprised they haven't had any regulators on there case about the terrible reliability
Quote from: Trident 4194 on January 30, 2020, 08:37:27 PM
Solution C would be to have short runnings
Your solution seems to be the reason for your original post about short running?
Quote from: Gareth on January 30, 2020, 09:55:41 PM
Your solution seems to be the reason for your original post about short running?
I meant like a shuttle service between places which were timetabled.
Quote from: Trident 4194 on January 30, 2020, 09:58:54 PM
I meant like a shuttle service between places which were timetabled.
What good would that do? That will just get stuck!
A few years back it was looked if the Outer Circle could be split. It was said it would probably need to be split into at least three parts and that it would inconvenience too many passengers who would need to change bus. Then you risk the bus you are changing running late too, inconveniencing the passenger even more.
I can't remember when this was, possibly as long as 20years. There was an article in BUSES magazine where they were speaking to the then head of WMT/TWM at the time.
Quote from: Trident 4194 on January 30, 2020, 09:58:54 PM
I meant like a shuttle service between places which were timetabled.
The shuttle service will fly over the traffic then? Good idea!
They did a Swl route in selly oak I seem to remember
Quote from: monkeyjoe on January 30, 2020, 10:37:11 PM
They did a Swl route in selly oak I seem to remember
Yes, the South West Link running between Bearwood and Kings Heath via the 11 route but also serving the QE Hospital (via Vincent Drive at the time I believe). It was, however, short-lived.
This was before the QE was the scale that it is now.
Quote from: Mike K on January 30, 2020, 11:47:16 PM
Yes, the South West Link running between Bearwood and Kings Heath via the 11 route but also serving the QE Hospital (via Vincent Drive at the time I believe). It was, however, short-lived.
This was before the QE was the scale that it is now.
Wasn't is run with Lynx from the former Patterson's yard?
Your right winston they were route branded white I believe over the former red blue and grey livery.
Quote from: danny on January 31, 2020, 12:41:05 AM
Your right winston they were route branded white I believe over the former red blue and grey livery.
1236 & 1290 here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/59615439@N03/40053061782
https://www.flickr.com/photos/59615439@N03/15852928355
An 11a MMC was towed by RS Recovery at 10:30pm yesterday. It was there for a good 2 hours while I was doing 48. Also funnily enough as I went round the roundabout to the 48 stand, a chap waiting for the 11 (which was late) along with quite a few people came up to me and mentioned how awful the 11 has gotten and how it used to be a "proud" route, I had no idea what to say lol.
When I used to drive the 11 in the 1980s it was 2h10m all the way around rising to 2h30 in the peak. It is now 3h20 in the peak. The only real solution is to reduce Birmingham traffic
Ask the Mayor Andy street for a bus lane around the whole of the circle or
ask Amazon if NX could use there drones to carry there buses around the route
Quote from: 2900 on January 31, 2020, 09:17:24 AM
Ask the Mayor Andy street for a bus lane around the whole of the circle or
ask Amazon if NX could use there drones to carry there buses around the route
The Mayor & WMCA are NOT responsible for bus lanes they are a matter for the local authorities such as Birmingham City Council.
Quote from: richardjones210368 on January 31, 2020, 09:33:18 AM
The Mayor & WMCA are NOT responsible for bus lanes they are a matter for the local authorities such as Birmingham City Council.
Well there's a thing (unlike the one in London - on the most important parts of the network). Or are they simply interested in branding public transport and instructing people to get their feet off the seats - hardly a strategic activity.
However they do have a responsibility for regional transport strategy and Policy so could influence this, especially if it's causing problems for public transport and achieving its potential. So why don't they?
Quote from: don on January 31, 2020, 10:18:22 AM
Well there's a thing (unlike the one in London - on the most important parts of the network). Or are they simply interested in branding public transport and instructing people to get their feet off the seats - hardly a strategic activity.
However they do have a responsibility for regional transport strategy and Policy so could influence this, especially if it's causing problems for public transport and achieving its potential. So why don't they?
London has had seperate legislation since 1930. Highways outside London in England & Wales are the responsibility of the local authorities this cannot change without primary legislation. The function of the West Midlands Combined Authority is to coordinate all assets of public transport in a sustainable manner, procurement of socially necessary services across numerous authorities and the operation of concessionery and multi modal fare schemes. Surface assets such as roads and bus lanes are the subject of financing from the council tax and local authorities. WMCA is a levy in line with the Police and Fire Service.
I think you misunderstood and apart from the legislation you've mentioned there is far more that is pertinent here. However, apparently, local voters can hold the mayor responsible for the quality of the key road network. Presumably part of the coordination role as it really is just a group of local authority and three local enterprise partnership representatives.
Quote from: don on January 31, 2020, 12:06:57 PM
I think you misunderstood and apart from the legislation you've mentioned there is far more that is pertinent here. However, apparently, local voters can hold the mayor responsible for the quality of the key road network. Presumably part of the coordination role as it really is just a group of local authority and three local enterprise partnership representatives.
The Mayor has no DIRECT responsibility for the public highway but a key part of the WMCA is to draw up strategies to be carried in partnership with other authorities on matters such as highways for the greater good of the West Midlands, the WMCA is partnership of local stakeholders including members of the LEP's of which I am one.
Good grief. However the point is that the Mayor is clearly failing in his transport co-ordination duties in terms of congestion on the key local road network where the 11a/11c is concerned (part of transport strategy).
Quote from: don on January 31, 2020, 12:31:04 PM
Good grief. However the point is that the Mayor is clearly failing in his transport co-ordination duties in terms of congestion on the key local road network where the 11a/11c is concerned (part of transport strategy).
The Mayors strategy on transport co-ordination in general is available to download on the WMCA website. I am not aware on anything specific to the 11A/11C and it is never mentioned at the meetings I attend I can only conclude no concerns have been raised then about this service.
You 'political people' do have your heads buried well and truly in the sand don't you!! That's no doubt because the public haven't a clue how to complain to the strategic authority (as opposed to say Birmingham City Council or the bus operator) - sensible people probably don't complain to the bus operator because they can see the traffic congestion and know it's not the operator's responsibility.
You clearly didn't read
@Tony 's post saying the operating time for the whole route has increased by an hour? This is down to traffic congestion - but by all means, put your head in the sand and ignore it!!
Quote from: don on January 31, 2020, 12:44:05 PM
You 'political people' do have your heads buried well and truly in the sand don't you!! That's no doubt because the public haven't a clue how to complain to the strategic authority (as opposed to say Birmingham City Council or the bus operator) - sensible people probably don't complain to the bus operator because they can see the traffic congestion and know it's not the operator's responsibility.
You clearly didn't read @Tony 's post saying the operating time for the whole route has increased by an hour? This is down to traffic congestion - but by all means, put your head in the sand and ignore it!!
What has the current 11A/11C due to do with congestion for the moment it is the responsibility of the operator. There is a mayoral vision document on the WMCA which outlines all transport strategies including congestion. I use the excellent service West Midlands Travel Limited operates on the Outer Circle personally at least twice a week and connect to and from it on the 13A & X8.
Quote from: richardjones210368 on January 31, 2020, 12:58:24 PM
What has the current 11A/11C due to do with congestion for the moment it is the responsibility of the operator. There is a mayoral vision document on the WMCA which outlines all transport strategies including congestion.
Well do you expect them to fly over the traffic hotspots they get into? Have you even ridden the 11? Or are you stuck in Blackheath because the X8 won't turn up...
The 11A/C is one of those routes which will always be late. People don't really check the timetable they just turn up and hope it's not too long a wait.
Quote from: richardjones210368 on January 31, 2020, 12:13:36 PM
The Mayor has no DIRECT responsibility for the public highway but a key part of the WMCA is to draw up strategies to be carried in partnership with other authorities on matters such as highways for the greater good of the West Midlands, the WMCA is partnership of local stakeholders including members of the LEP's of which I am one.
So this is why we have situations where the Mayor is at loggerheads with Birmingham City Council over plans to demolish the Perry Barr flyover.
Quote from: richardjones210368 on January 31, 2020, 12:36:56 PM
I am not aware on anything specific to the 11A/11C and it is never mentioned at the meetings I attend I can only conclude no concerns have been raised then about this service.
Whoever also attends these meetings you apparently attend clearly does not either use the Outer Circle services, nor do they listen to concerns from passengers who regularly use those services. This is why ordinary people have this perception of political leaders and transport authorities as 'burying their heads in the sand' as put by don earlier.
Quote from: richardjones210368 on January 31, 2020, 12:58:24 PM
What has the current 11A/11C due to do with congestion for the moment it is the responsibility of the operator. There is a mayoral vision document on the WMCA which outlines all transport strategies including congestion. I use the excellent service West Midlands Travel Limited operates on the Outer Circle personally at least twice a week and connect to and from it on the 13A & X8.
The Outer Circle 11A/C services suffer terribly due to traffic congestion, that is a fact. Its the responsibility of the operator to do what? National Express can't go ahead and have bus lanes and priority measures installed. What else can they do apart from increasing the running time and using more vehicles to maintain the current frequency, thus increasing operating costs? At this rate, within a couple of years, the journey time will be approaching four hours.
You might be lucky enough to experience what you believe to be an 'excellent service' operated on the Outer Circle, but I know of many people who would disagree with you, myself included.
But for all the failings, I do not blame National Express at all.
Quote from: Winston on January 31, 2020, 12:00:40 AM
Wasn't is run with Lynx from the former Patterson's yard?
Yes, Elliott Road in Selly Oak. A few services in SW Bham operated out of there for a couple of years or so.
One solution may be to keep the full route of the 11A/C on a slightly reduced timetable, eg every 10 minutes, and then have short workings between different points on the route running every 20 minutes, these being run by the nearest garage to them, eg Yardley to QE/Uni by Yardley Wood garage, Harborne to handsworth soho road by West Bromwich garage, Handsworth to Erdington by Perry Barr garage and then Erdington to Yardley run by Acocks Green themselves.
These shorter routes could run every 20 minutes to ensure minimal disruption caused elsewhere on the full route. I would also do it (if it allowed by the regulator!) to just tell the drivers to do as many trips as possible in their shift and not necessary run to a set timetable. That way they would be more flexible to cope with any delays encountered and not be under pressure to make up time. As the full route would still be every 10 minutes, it wouldn't matter so much having the shorter routes not on a set timetable. Strange idea but may work (if allowed!)
That's how the route operated back in the 70s, but it was shared between three depots, PB, AG and Harborne, which made the short journeys a bit easier to manage. That said I agree with you, in the peak shorter journeys with some through journeys would ease the effect of multiple congestion spots. There are two problems for passengers which result in unreliable journey times - buses not arriving very regularly owing to traffic congestion, and once they get a bus, further delays caused by congestion. However the route does cross every single outer radial route to the city at some point.
Many will be surprised to hear that one of the main memories I have of being taken around the outer circle by my grandmother as a child in about 1963 (GOE reg CVA6), is of horrendous delays in places like Cotteridge, Perry Barr and Kings Heath. It's not new.
However NXWM may be able to improve it by running more short workings of a reasonable length over the busiest sections and reducing the through frequency (maybe) in the peaks.
I suppose the reason the 11A/C hasn't changed is because the outer circle is pretty iconic.
However as others have pointed out if there are key failings on the service NXWM seem more reluctant to make changes than on other routes.
As suggested sharing the 11 out to Yardley Wood and perry barr and having timetables short workings could help regulate the route better.
It would be interesting to know what type of journeys passengers make on the 11. Are they short distance of long distance. I know people who still get a bus from Bearwood into the city and then another over to Erdington or Perry Barr as it is quicker to do it that way than get the 11.
Quote from: Stu on January 31, 2020, 07:52:41 PM
So this is why we have situations where the Mayor is at loggerheads with Birmingham City Council over plans to demolish the Perry Barr flyover.
Whoever also attends these meetings you apparently attend clearly does not either use the Outer Circle services, nor do they listen to concerns from passengers who regularly use those services. This is why ordinary people have this perception of political leaders and transport authorities as 'burying their heads in the sand' as put by don earlier.
The Outer Circle 11A/C services suffer terribly due to traffic congestion, that is a fact. Its the responsibility of the operator to do what? National Express can't go ahead and have bus lanes and priority measures installed. What else can they do apart from increasing the running time and using more vehicles to maintain the current frequency, thus increasing operating costs? At this rate, within a couple of years, the journey time will be approaching four hours.
You might be lucky enough to experience what you believe to be an 'excellent service' operated on the Outer Circle, but I know of many people who would disagree with you, myself included.
But for all the failings, I do not blame National Express at all.
In Response To Your Comments
@Stu :
1. The Mayor has made his comments public on the Perry Barr Flyover
2. Unless you can prove I was
not in ROOM 116, 16 Summer Lane, Birmingham, B193SD on Tuesday 28th January at 1pm at an WMCA meeting
please withdraw your comment
"these meetings you apparently attend"[/b] these meetings I apparently attend completely voluntary for no wage simply for my passion for buses and wanting to get a better bus service for all.
3. At the meeting I apparently attended no complaints were raised from submissions to TfWM or the operator present therefore I would kindly ask you how we are supposed to act on evidence based reviews on the 11A/C when my own observations when I was actually aboard the service on Monday 27th January are not in line with your comments otherwise I would have raised them alongside my concerns of the X8 I raised at the meeting I apparently attended.
I am posting this on the 02.30 PN9 ex Colmore Row proving yet again I put my money where my mouth is and use the buses I love 24hrs a day 364 days a year.
Have you actually ridden the 11? I mean it sounds like you're getting secondary research from people and it doesn't sound like you've done it for yourself? Then I'm sure how stuck it gets in traffic.
Quote from: j789 on January 31, 2020, 10:10:01 PM
One solution may be to keep the full route of the 11A/C on a slightly reduced timetable, eg every 10 minutes, and then have short workings between different points on the route running every 20 minutes, these being run by the nearest garage to them, eg Yardley to QE/Uni by Yardley Wood garage, Harborne to handsworth soho road by West Bromwich garage, Handsworth to Erdington by Perry Barr garage and then Erdington to Yardley run by Acocks Green themselves.
These shorter routes could run every 20 minutes to ensure minimal disruption caused elsewhere on the full route. I would also do it (if it allowed by the regulator!) to just tell the drivers to do as many trips as possible in their shift and not necessary run to a set timetable. That way they would be more flexible to cope with any delays encountered and not be under pressure to make up time. As the full route would still be every 10 minutes, it wouldn't matter so much having the shorter routes not on a set timetable. Strange idea but may work (if allowed!)
Think Erdington/Perry Barr to Acocks Green would make more sense.
As loads of people travel through yardley, not a good idea and would show a lack of understanding about the route.
Just to say that back in the 70s, when quite a lot of short journeys were run, I ceased using it for a daily trip from Handsworth Wood to Bournville, travelling via City instead. It was too unreliable in the peak in terms of journey reliability. Also had the advantage of a high speed thrash down the Bristol Road on a Jumbo on a short working back to Selly Oak (of which there were many in the morning peak from City!!)
STILL WAITING FOR A REPLY @Stu In Response To Your Comments
@Stu :
1. The Mayor has made his comments public on the Perry Barr Flyover
2. Unless you can prove I was not in ROOM 116, 16 Summer Lane, Birmingham, B193SD on Tuesday 28th January at 1pm at an WMCA meeting please withdraw your comment "these meetings you apparently attend"[/b] these meetings I apparently attend completely voluntary for no wage simply for my passion for buses and wanting to get a better bus service for all.
3. At the meeting I apparently attended no complaints were raised from submissions to TfWM or the operator present therefore I would kindly ask you how we are supposed to act on evidence based reviews on the 11A/C when my own observations when I was actually aboard the service on Monday 27th January are not in line with your comments otherwise I would have raised them alongside my concerns of the X8 I raised at the meeting I apparently attended.
I am posting this on the 02.30 PN9 ex Colmore Row proving yet again I put my money where my mouth is and use the buses I love 24hrs a day 364 days a year
Need to pop over to Acocks Green, just checked on the NX app, and the next 11A from Billesley is 'due' in 24mins.
Then 25mins, 30mins, 30mins, 37mins, 41mins, 50mins.
My experiences of using the 11A and 11C are obviously vastly different to yours
@richardjones210368
Quote from: Stu on February 01, 2020, 03:49:32 PM
Need to pop over to Acocks Green, just checked on the NX app, and the next 11A from Billesley is 'due' in 24mins.
Then 25mins, 30mins, 30mins, 37mins, 41mins, 50mins.
My experiences of using the 11A and 11C are obviously vastly different to yours @richardjones210368
That may be true what I am waiting for is:
Unless you can prove I was not in ROOM 116, 16 Summer Lane, Birmingham, B193SD on Tuesday 28th January at 1pm at an WMCA meeting please withdraw your comment "these meetings you apparently attend" these are the meetings I apparently attend completely voluntary for no wage simply for my passion for buses.If you cannot prove I was not at one of my apparent meetings on Tuesday please withdraw your comment
@Stu
Quote from: richardjones210368 on February 01, 2020, 03:56:35 PM
That may be true what I am waiting for is:
Unless you can prove I was not in ROOM 116, 16 Summer Lane, Birmingham, B193SD on Tuesday 28th January at 1pm at an WMCA meeting please withdraw your comment "these meetings you apparently attend" these are the meetings I apparently attend completely voluntary for no wage simply for my passion for buses.
If you cannot prove I was not at one of my apparent meetings on Tuesday please withdraw your comment @Stu
Can you prove you were there?
Who attends these meetings and are they open to the public? If they are, why are they not more widely publicised?
What mechanism is there in place for bus users to report any concerns or feedback they may have about issues with bus services? Which can then be raised at these meetings for discussion.
This is why what I'm trying to do with my West Midlands Bus Users website is so vitally important - apart from sending feedback through contact forms on bus operator's websites, there is no 'open platform' for bus users to share experiences and feedback with others, which can then be shared with bus operators and local authorities such as TfWM.
Quote from: Stu on February 01, 2020, 05:23:16 PM
Can you prove you were there?
Who attends these meetings and are they open to the public? If they are, why are they not more widely publicised?
What mechanism is there in place for bus users to report any concerns or feedback they may have about issues with bus services? Which can then be raised at these meetings for discussion.
This is why what I'm trying to do with my West Midlands Bus Users website is so vitally important - apart from sending feedback through contact forms on bus operator's websites, there is no 'open platform' for bus users to share experiences and feedback with others, which can then be shared with bus operators and local authorities such as TfWM.
I remember once many years ago there was a meeting on buses in Birmingham held at Hall Green Greyhound Stadium. The biggest gripe at that meeting was people complaining that the 94 route is so frequent whilst others aren't.
It was full of morons to be honest.
Anyway, everyone at the meeting got paid £20 for an hour of their time. This was the only reason people attended.
Quote from: Stu on February 01, 2020, 05:23:16 PM
Can you prove you were there?
Who attends these meetings and are they open to the public? If they are, why are they not more widely publicised?
What mechanism is there in place for bus users to report any concerns or feedback they may have about issues with bus services? Which can then be raised at these meetings for discussion.
This is why what I'm trying to do with my West Midlands Bus Users website is so vitally important - apart from sending feedback through contact forms on bus operator's websites, there is no 'open platform' for bus users to share experiences and feedback with others, which can then be shared with bus operators and local authorities such as TfWM.
Funny enough
@Stu I can prove I was there feel free to ask a member of the forum who asked me to raise a point on his behalf at the meeting and the response he has had from TfWM he is more than satisfied with me funny only you seem to question my honesty isnt it and as you have requested me not to PM you I am not about to discuss my professional relationship with WMCA and The Mayor on a public forum you may think I am but I am not stupid if you wish to contribute to the WMCA I suggest you contact them and I repeat
PROVE to me I wasnt at the meeting in ROOM 116 at 16 Summer Lane on Tuesday
28th January
@Stu or
WITHDRAW your comments.
Quote from: richardjones210368 on February 01, 2020, 06:28:37 PM
Funny enough @Stu I can prove I was there feel free to ask @danny who asked me to raise a point on his behalf at the meeting and the response he has had from TfWM and as you have requested me not to PM you I am not about to discuss my professional relationship with WMCA and The Mayor on a public forum you may think I am but I am not stupid if you wish to contribute to the WMCA I suggest you contact them and I repeat PROVE to me I wasnt at the meeting in ROOM 116 at 16 Summer Lane on Tuesday
28th January @Stu or WITHDRAW your comments.
Frankly I am not really interested in whether you were at this meeting or not - note my use of the word "apparently" which was not intended as a direct accusation of you not being present there. As I cannot prove you weren't in attendance, and you are unwilling to prove that you were, we have reached an impasse and this discussion goes no further, your making threats against me isn't doing you any favours.
Anyway, I'm more interested in the more pertinent questions that I asked:
QuoteWho attends these meetings and are they open to the public? If they are, why are they not more widely publicised?
What mechanism is there in place for bus users to report any concerns or feedback they may have about issues with bus services? Which can then be raised at these meetings for discussion.
Thanks for the tip though, I will be contacting the WMCA and TfWM to see if I can become more directly involved with my own work through my website, which I of course do entirely voluntarily at my own cost and in my own time outside of my full-time job.
Quote from: Stu on February 01, 2020, 07:05:41 PM
Frankly I am not really interested in whether you were at this meeting or not - note my use of the word "apparently" which was not intended as a direct accusation of you not being present there. As I cannot prove you weren't in attendance, and you are unwilling to prove that you were, we have reached an impasse and this discussion goes no further, your making threats against me isn't doing you any favours.
Anyway, I'm more interested in the more pertinent questions that I asked:
Thanks for the tip though, I will be contacting the WMCA and TfWM to see if I can become more directly involved with my own work through my website, which I of course do entirely voluntarily at my own cost and in my own time outside of my full-time job.
Ok Cheers
@Stu
Quote from: Stu on February 01, 2020, 03:49:32 PM
Need to pop over to Acocks Green, just checked on the NX app, and the next 11A from Billesley is 'due' in 24mins.
Then 25mins, 30mins, 30mins, 37mins, 41mins, 50mins.
My experiences of using the 11A and 11C are obviously vastly different to yours @richardjones210368
Caught two 11's today as well myself from Yardley to Ward End. Both on time. So not always like that.
6120 this afternoon only had a few minutes wait for this, same for 6841 on the X2.
Quote from: richardjones210368 on February 01, 2020, 02:53:42 AM
In Response To Your Comments @Stu :
1. The Mayor has made his comments public on the Perry Barr Flyover
2. Unless you can prove I was not in ROOM 116, 16 Summer Lane, Birmingham, B193SD on Tuesday 28th January at 1pm at an WMCA meeting please withdraw your comment "these meetings you apparently attend"[/b] these meetings I apparently attend completely voluntary for no wage simply for my passion for buses and wanting to get a better bus service for all.
3. At the meeting I apparently attended no complaints were raised from submissions to TfWM or the operator present therefore I would kindly ask you how we are supposed to act on evidence based reviews on the 11A/C when my own observations when I was actually aboard the service on Monday 27th January are not in line with your comments otherwise I would have raised them alongside my concerns of the X8 I raised at the meeting I apparently attended.
I am posting this on the 02.30 PN9 ex Colmore Row proving yet again I put my money where my mouth is and use the buses I love 24hrs a day 364 days a year.
Mr Jones,
2. What meeting were you taking part in on Tuesday 28th January, was this a meeting of the WMCA transport committee or just a meeting of bus champions.
and when you posted to
@Stu at 02:53 this morning, you state you were on the 02:30 PN9 from Colmore Row. Why did you not complain at how late this 9 was, maybe because there is no 02:30 9, its 02:00 and 03:15!
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on February 01, 2020, 09:45:58 PM
Mr Jones,
2. What meeting were you taking part in on Tuesday 28th January, was this a meeting of the WMCA transport committee or just a meeting of bus champions.
and when you posted to @Stu at 02:53 this morning, you state you were on the 02:30 PN9 from Colmore Row. Why did you not complain at how late this 9 was, maybe because there is no 02:30 9, its 02:00 and 03:15!
I attended a TfWM Bus Champions meeting yes amongst other meetings I attended on the day at the WMCA although
@Stu doesn't seem to believe it & yes it was the 02:00 PN9 I was on I hadnt realised I had put the wrong departure time on the post please accept my apologies as it takes me about half hour to walk home from Quinton Church I didnt realise the post to
@Stu hadnt been sent of my smartphone on the PN9 until I got home then sent it I hope that clarifies matters. I have no complaints with West Midlands Travel Ltd PN9 and use the 01.00 02.00 & 03.15 regularly please accept my apologies for the wrong departure time it was a genuine mistake oh & please call me Rich only our family undertaker calls me Mr Jones. Just out of interest
@Stuharris 6360 how often do you support West Midlands Travel at 2am in the morning to help maintain the commercial service for the benefit of all bus users as a man of principles even if it means a half hour walk home albiet downhill I dont get a taxi a support the bus I persumb you do the same with West Midlands Travels Night Services?
Quote from: richardjones210368 on February 01, 2020, 10:40:08 PM
Yes it was TfWM Bus Champions meeting amongst others I attended on the day although @Stu doesn't seem to believe it & yes it was the 02:00 PN9 I was on I hadnt realised I had put the wrong departure time on the post please accept my apologies as it takes me about half hour to walk home from Quinton Church I didnt realise the post to @Stu hadnt been sent until I got home then sent it I hope that clarifies matters.
In a way I can understand why
@Stu feels like he does, on checking the WMCA website and there calendar of meetings, it shows no meetings of any committees on Tuesday last. Now that could be because the Bus Champions meetings aren't seen to be significant.
Bus champions must be a little like the old passenger forums which were held in the old days on the Railway. A group of people (passengers and interested parties) would meet about once every 3 or 4 months and discuss there experiences of the railway and any gripes and suggestions they would have. Unlike you seem to make out, these meetings were not seen to be massively important, in fact they were more a paper pushing exercise. You say you have made them aware of the X8, they will probably if felt necessary, contact NX bus and ask for an explanation of the problems. They will then look into it and either explain what happened on the day(s) in question and any remedial action, or provide proof from the bus tracker that the bus ran to time, plus also the fact that if an X8 didn't run, then NX bus would receive complaints themselves.
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on February 01, 2020, 11:03:12 PM
In a way I can understand why @Stu feels like he does, on checking the WMCA website and there calendar of meetings, it shows no meetings of any committees on Tuesday last. Now that could be because the Bus Champions meetings aren't seen to be significant.
Bus champions must be a little like the old passenger forums which were held in the old days on the Railway. A group of people (passengers and interested parties) would meet about once every 3 or 4 months and discuss there experiences of the railway and any gripes and suggestions they would have. Unlike you seem to make out, these meetings were not seen to be massively important, in fact they were more a paper pushing exercise. You say you have made them aware of the X8, they will probably if felt necessary, contact NX bus and ask for an explanation of the problems. They will then look into it and either explain what happened on the day(s) in question and any remedial action, or provide proof from the bus tracker that the bus ran to time, plus also the fact that if an X8 didn't run, then NX bus would receive complaints themselves.
You obviously have no idea how TfWM route monitoring works do you well anyway I am not on any committes of WMCA only elected stakeholders attend those though I am delighted to be an advisor on bus matters to one of the attendees and attend many of the public meetings however I attended the TfWM Bus Champion Meeting on the day for the gentleman I advise who is personally taking the matter of the X8 forward and as I have posted Iplaced the X8 in any other business at the meeting I attended as a formality which was accepted and taken forward I cannot see your point here?. By the way do you personally support and use West Midlands Travels night bus services such as the 9 as a man of principles I do not get a taxi home I use the bus home at 2am then have a half hour walk home to support the night bus network for the good of other bus users do you?
@Stuharris 6360
Just to say that the X8 complaint submission to that meeting was a bit odd when you consider the service was changed anyway as part of the general shake up of services the next weekend, which seems to have resulted in many of the problems (although
@Tony did make it clear some of those complaints were not supported by data from AVL anyway) being resolved. So it's a bit unclear to some of us what the point of the 'taken offline' complaint was at all.....
Unless a 'political person' somewhere wishes to claim the improvement has resulted from their actions and lobbying - which it very clearly hasn't!!
Btw this is off topic - meant to be 11A/11C thread 😬
Quote from: richardjones210368 on February 01, 2020, 11:16:13 PM
I am not on any committes of WMCA only elected stakeholders attend those though I am delighted to be an advisor on bus matters to one of the attendees and attend many of the public meetings however I attended the TfWM Bus Champion Meeting on the day and as I have posted placed the X8 on any other business which was accepted and taken forward I cannot see your point here?. By the way do you support West Midlands Travels night bus services such as the 9 as a man of principles I do not get a taxi home I use the bus home at 2am instead to support the night bus network for the good of other bus users do you? @Stuharris 6360
My point is that you seem obsessed with the WNX8 even though before on the forum you have moaned about it numerous times and even when Tony has proved you wrong you still won't accept it. Then in the new year when you said you were going to catch it, stu monitors it and it ran to time only for you to say you caught the 13A. My theory is that something about the X8 has upset you in the past and so therefore you want revenge on it, probably want to get it withdrawn and a 140ish type service returned. It ain't gonna happen.
As a bus champion and member of this forum, you have the ideal opportunity to see what is on peoples minds and to bring this to their attention, I know that the 11A/C discussion took place after your meeting but it does need to be raised, probably the answer would be that to replace it with a number of shorter routes would inconvenience to many people, but maybe the timetable needs tweaking.
As for myself, i have an NBus Swift card and i make use of all of NX Buses and several other operators service and in the past I have used the Night Buses. Another suggestion I would make is that more of these routes are needed. With the Commonwealth Games coming in 2022, services like Night Routes are needed, look at London, there Night Bus routes are second to none yet Birmingham only has a handful.
Quote from: don on February 01, 2020, 11:40:28 PM
Just to say that the X8 complaint submission to that meeting was a bit odd when you consider the service was changed anyway as part of the general shake up of services the next weekend, which seems to have resulted in many of the problems (although @Tony did make it clear some of those complaints were not supported by data from AVL anyway) being resolved. So it's a bit unclear to some of us what the point of the 'taken offline' complaint was at all.....
Unless a 'political person' somewhere wishes to claim the improvement has resulted from their actions and lobbying - which it very clearly hasn't!!
Btw this is off topic - meant to be 11A/11C thread 😬
I will openly admit as I have posted on this forum that there has been a major improvement in the X8 this week my complaints were based on the service use prior to the recent timetable revision I may have mentioned my complaints against NXWM & the X8 previously if the new timetable is proved to be working fine as it seems to be who am I to complain in the future if its confirmed the problems with the X8 are fixed then I am a happy man but no one can criticise me for standing up for a failing bus service previously.
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on February 01, 2020, 11:43:04 PM
My point is that you seem obsessed with the WNX8 even though before on the forum you have moaned about it numerous times and even when Tony has proved you wrong you still won't accept it. Then in the new year when you said you were going to catch it, stu monitors it and it ran to time only for you to say you caught the 13A. My theory is that something about the X8 has upset you in the past and so therefore you want revenge on it, probably want to get it withdrawn and a 140ish type service returned. It ain't gonna happen.
As a bus champion and member of this forum, you have the ideal opportunity to see what is on peoples minds and to bring this to their attention, I know that the 11A/C discussion took place after your meeting but it does need to be raised, probably the answer would be that to replace it with a number of shorter routes would inconvenience to many people, but maybe the timetable needs tweaking.
As for myself, i have an NBus Swift card and i make use of all of NX Buses and several other operators service and in the past I have used the Night Buses. Another suggestion I would make is that more of these routes are needed. With the Commonwealth Games coming in 2022, services like Night Routes are needed, look at London, there Night Bus routes are second to none yet Birmingham only has a handful.
The 140 bus number doesnt bother me I just want a bus at 06.48 to take me to work and whatever
@Tony might say on his forum I am standing waiting in person for an X8 that didn't turn up & I would have called him a liar to his face when I was waiting for the X8 and he said it had turned up and I was still waiting at the stop if you ever stood in Blackheath waiting for an X8 and 3 turn up together then you may have a different attitude we had a great 140/241 and NXWM cocked it up and I am not a liar I am user of the X8 whatever Tony might post otherwise however the new timetable is a significant improvement the new timetable seems to be working very very well which I have been posting all week and as such I have no complaints and thank
@Tony & WMT for the excellent service we now have on the X8 and you
@Stuharris 6360 you still haven't answered my question do you support West Midlands Travels Night Services REGULARLY MOST WEEKENDS such as the excellent PN9 I use for the benefit of keeping them commercial for the benefit of all bus users I do
@Stuharris 6360 do you & your not a CAR owner are you that uses his CAR for his journeys are you that may explain your comments as I am a nBus Direct Debit holder that uses the bus for 100% of personal and business use WELL
@Stuharris 6360 ?
Quote from: richardjones210368 on February 01, 2020, 11:58:04 PM
The 140 bus number doesnt bother me I just want a bus at 06.48 to take me to work and whatever @Tony might say on his forum I am standing waiting in person for an X8 that didn't turn up & I would have called him a liar to his face when I was waiting for the X8 and he said it had turned up and I was still waiting at the stop if you ever stood in Blackheath waiting for an X8 and 3 turn up together then you may have a different attitude we had a great 140/241 and NXWM cocked it up and I am not a liar I am user if the X8 whatever Tony might post otherwise however the new timetable is a significant improvement and unless you call me a liar the new timetable seems to be working which I have been posting all week and as such I have no complaints and thank @Tony & WMT for the excellent service we now have on the X8 and you @Stuharris 6360 you still haven't answered my question do you support West Midlands Travels Night Services REGULARLY MOST WEEKENDS such as the excellent PN9 I use for the benefit of keeping them commercial for the benefit of all bus users I do @Stuharris 6360 do you?
I really give up, once again I have mentioned things in my post like the 11A/C, Night Buses and you seem more interested in moaning about the X8 and calling Forum Owner
@Tony a liar. i have met Tony on numerous occasions and i can assure you this man is not a liar, why would he when there is AVL which tells exactly what every bus has done and when.
You speak about the 9 and how good it is, try telling that to people when the buses are running in 2 and 3, is this NX's fault, no. The Five Way island is shut, diversions everywhere and road works popping up daily. So suring the day I am sure the same happens with the X8 X10 13 13A n fact anything that goes across the Hagley Road into Birmingham.
And as for me regularly using the Night Bus Service, if I go out on an evening, the place where I drink doesn't have an evening service even though there is a bus stop outside the door. I have to take a taxi even though I would prefer to take a bus.
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on February 02, 2020, 12:19:22 AM
I really give up, once again I have mentioned things in my post like the 11A/C, Night Buses and you seem more interested in moaning about the X8 and calling Forum Owner @Tony a liar. i have met Tony on numerous occasions and i can assure you this man is not a liar, why would he when there is AVL which tells exactly what every bus has done and when.
You speak about the 9 and how good it is, try telling that to people when the buses are running in 2 and 3, is this NX's fault, no. The Five Way island is shut, diversions everywhere and road works popping up daily. So suring the day I am sure the same happens with the X8 X10 13 13A n fact anything that goes across the Hagley Road into Birmingham.
And as for me regularly using the Night Bus Service, if I go out on an evening, the place where I drink doesn't have an evening service even though there is a bus stop outside the door. I have to take a taxi even though I would prefer to take a bus.
So you do not support the excellent West Midlands Travel night bus network well fancy that and because of the X8 problems I use the PN9 and PNX10 and 4H home most nights from my office in front of the roadworks at 5 ways and the 9 is FI so in the peaks there may be the occasional dual running but not often do you work at 5ways
@Stuharris 6360 if not you have finally shown yourself up as the ultimate armchair pundit posting rubbish if the X8 or 13A come I get on them you have no idea what your talking about do you
@Stuharris 6360 ?
Quote from: richardjones210368 on February 02, 2020, 12:27:32 AM
So you do not support the excellent West Midlands Travel night bus network well fancy that and because of the X8 problems I use the PN9 and PNX10 and 4H home most nights from my office in front of the roadworks at 5 ways and the 9 is FI so in the peaks there may be the occasional dual running but not often do you work at 5ways @Stuharris 6360 if not you have finally shown yourself up as the ultimate armchair pundit posting rubbish if the X8 or 13A come I get on them you have no idea what your talking about do you @Stuharris 6360 ?
lol, getting agitated Mr Jones, most people who are at risk of getting caught out do so.
Making out you are at important meetings at WMCA when in fact you are just at a Bus Champions meeting. I am sure the WMCA would be interested in your behavior on this forum, people have made comments about the 11A/C on here which you could take up, no just X8 all the time, calling Tony a liar, having a go at stu I was trying to give you one last chance but no it's back on the ignore list.
And as for the 9 last night at 02:30, which you have been trying to turn the conversation to me on, you made the mistake you say it should have been 02:00. Then you forgot to post the reply, mmm strange, to be honest don't believe a word of it.
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on February 02, 2020, 12:39:06 AM
lol, getting agitated Mr Jones, most people who are at risk of getting caught out do so.
Making out you are at important meetings at WMCA when in fact you are just at a Bus Champions meeting. I am sure the WMCA would be interested in your behavior on this forum, people have made comments about the 11A/C on here which you could take up, no just X8 all the time, calling Tony a liar, having a go at stu I was trying to give you one last chance but no it's back on the ignore list.
And as for the 9 last night at 02:30, which you have been trying to turn the conversation to me on, you made the mistake you say it should have been 02:00. Then you forgot to post the reply, mmm strange, to be honest don't believe a word of it.
You still haven't given a satisfactory answer to if you support West Midlands Travels Nightbus PN9 as I do or are just moaning and criticising as an armchair bus user getting a kick out of bashing those of us who actually use buses and work towards getting a better bus service for all well for those of us that actually use them,? I never get agitated
@Stuharris 6360 in my job far from it I enjoy exposing people who make comments about issues they frankly have no real knowledge of such as a 5 ways island roadworks when an individuals comments are so laughable The Krankies will have them in thier next panto your comments show you havent a clue on what you are saying when some of us have an office on Hagley Rd in the middle of the roadworks as for Tony he is one of the best chaps in the world but we previously didnt agree on the X8 but its looks like we do know and I fully respect him and the WMCA are fully aware of my comments on this forum and I have no importance there at all how you could come that conclusion I was exposes your posts for what they are you have to be an elected member on WMCA meetings do you not understand that
@Stuharris 6360 but there are plenty of other user testing groups I enjoy attending I am no fraud as far last night after 2 bottles of Claret I was pissed!!!!!!
What we are asking you, is would you stand up at a WMCA meeting and express opinions that the 11A/11C is a diabolical service. It's not difficult to answer. My bet is you wouldn't because your out for yourself and as you don't travel regularly on the 11A/11C I bet you don't care about your fellow companions who have to stand 20 mins + for a service
Quote from: Trident 4194 on February 02, 2020, 08:16:32 AM
What we are asking you, is would you stand up at a WMCA meeting and express opinions that the 11A/11C is a diabolical service. It's not difficult to answer. My bet is you wouldn't because your out for yourself and as you don't travel regularly on the 11A/11C I bet you don't care about your fellow companions who have to stand 20 mins + for a service
Yes
@Trident 4194 as long as I have the evidence and data to prove it as I had with the X8.at the meeting.
Quote from: richardjones210368 on February 02, 2020, 09:05:57 AM
Yes @Trident 4194 as long as I have the evidence and data to prove it as I had with the X8.at the meeting.
What data and evidence did you have for the X8? From what source?
Quote from: Dom on February 02, 2020, 11:16:07 AM
What data and evidence did you have for the X8? From what source?
The route monitoring and data collection for H M Government over a 7 day period for:
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/bus-statistics
Quote from: Stu on January 31, 2020, 07:52:41 PM
So this is why we have situations where the Mayor is at loggerheads with Birmingham City Council over plans to demolish the Perry Barr flyover.
Whoever also attends these meetings you apparently attend clearly does not either use the Outer Circle services, nor do they listen to concerns from passengers who regularly use those services. This is why ordinary people have this perception of political leaders and transport authorities as 'burying their heads in the sand' as put by don earlier.
The Outer Circle 11A/C services suffer terribly due to traffic congestion, that is a fact. Its the responsibility of the operator to do what? National Express can't go ahead and have bus lanes and priority measures installed. What else can they do apart from increasing the running time and using more vehicles to maintain the current frequency, thus increasing operating costs? At this rate, within a couple of years, the journey time will be approaching four hours.
You might be lucky enough to experience what you believe to be an 'excellent service' operated on the Outer Circle, but I know of many people who would disagree with you, myself included.
But for all the failings, I do not blame National Express at all.
@Stu I have sent you a PM with the contact details of the best chap to contact at TfWM & if can be of any help with your website at all just let me know how I could help buses need all the positive publicity they can get and at the end of the day whatever our personal thoughts we are both working to a common goal.
I know that the 11A/C suffers with delays and congestion. All I know is that there are no plans for NX to amend the timetable withdrawn journeys of the timetable. All the current Passenger know it's a turn up and go service. I know passengers don't like to see buses running in tandom or having to wait 20+ mins for a bus. However there is nothong NX can do about this as they are already at capacity for this serive. I know passengers don't like to see buses turning short or as E journeys but this is the world that we live in now. With regards to buses turing short on this route, they simply can't turn sort so scrub waht I sad about turning short.
Quote from: richardjones210368 on February 02, 2020, 12:52:45 AM
You still haven't given a satisfactory answer to if you support West Midlands Travels Nightbus PN9 as I do or are just moaning and criticising as an armchair bus user getting a kick out of bashing those of us who actually use buses and work towards getting a better bus service for all well for those of us that actually use them,? I never get agitated @Stuharris 6360 in my job far from it I enjoy exposing people who make comments about issues they frankly have no real knowledge of such as a 5 ways island roadworks when an individuals comments are so laughable The Krankies will have them in thier next panto your comments show you havent a clue on what you are saying when some of us have an office on Hagley Rd in the middle of the roadworks as for Tony he is one of the best chaps in the world but we previously didnt agree on the X8 but its looks like we do know and I fully respect him and the WMCA are fully aware of my comments on this forum and I have no importance there at all how you could come that conclusion I was exposes your posts for what they are you have to be an elected member on WMCA meetings do you not understand that @Stuharris 6360 but there are plenty of other user testing groups I enjoy attending I am no fraud as far last night after 2 bottles of Claret I was pissed!!!!!!
You see Mr Jones, exactly what I have said, the best defence is to attack.
You are a bus champion, nothing more, nothing less which means you attend meetings and discuss bus services. You have been asked by members of this forum to make known there comments about the state of the 11A/C which you refuse to do because you say the service is perfect when you use it.
Then there is the 9, I have to travel to Birmingham regular and I always catch the 9 even though the train station to me is just as close as the bus station (me supporting local bus services). Ever since they closed off the Five Ways tunnels, especially the City bound one, the 9 gets caught up in traffic there along with all the other Hagley Road routes. This means that 9s get bunched together and it isn't uncommon to see 2 or 3 9s together. Whether you choose to believe me is irrelevant, it happens. There is nothing NX can do about it, however to say that it doesn't happen is scandalous. If your office is on Hagley Road, I suggest you oipen the blinds and see what is happening in real time.
As I'm not going to get a straight answer from our resident Bus Champion about what goes on or is discussed at these meetings, lets back on topic.
I used the Outer Circle again today for a short shopping trip to and from Kings Heath this afternoon.
No problems with the 11C journey into Kings Heath, app was showing them seemingly running on time.
But on my way back home, there were two 11As following each other.
One issue that causes delays on the 11A service is with the stupid road layout in Selly Oak, in particular the Harborne Lane island where the entrance to the new retail park is.
Northbound 11C journeys aren't affected as much, as they use the slip road onto Harborne Lane which bypasses the island.
The problem is that the southbound 11A journeys have to go round that island, which gets blocked by vehicles queuing up to enter the shopping centre car park. This in turn also causes delays to the 48, X20 and X21 services approaching this island from the A38.
Badly designed road layout. I have seen this myself with my own eyes on various occasions. Even my dad complains to me about this junction, as he drives through Selly Oak to get to my house when he's coming to give me a lift, and he's made the same observation.
This is but one observable explanation of why the 11A/C suffers with reliability, and I'm sure there are others.
On this occasion, on disembarking from the 11A that I caught, I noticed on the ticketer screen that it was showing as 'Late 8', so presumably the one following close behind - which managed to overtake us at Billesley fire station - was about 23 minutes late (or 7 minutes early!).
Quote from: Stu on February 02, 2020, 06:24:01 PM
As I'm not going to get a straight answer from our resident Bus Champion about what goes on or is discussed at these meetings, lets back on topic.
I used the Outer Circle again today for a short shopping trip to and from Kings Heath this afternoon.
No problems with the 11C journey into Kings Heath, app was showing them seemingly running on time.
But on my way back home, there were two 11As following each other.
One issue that causes delays on the 11A service is with the stupid road layout in Selly Oak, in particular the Harborne Lane island where the entrance to the new retail park is.
Northbound 11C journeys aren't affected as much, as they use the slip road onto Harborne Lane which bypasses the island.
The problem is that the southbound 11A journeys have to go round that island, which gets blocked by vehicles queuing up to enter the shopping centre car park. This in turn also causes delays to the 48, X20 and X21 services approaching this island from the A38.
Badly designed road layout. I have seen this myself with my own eyes on various occasions. Even my dad complains to me about this junction, as he drives through Selly Oak to get to my house when he's coming to give me a lift, and he's made the same observation.
This is but one observable explanation of why the 11A/C suffers with reliability, and I'm sure there are others.
On this occasion, on disembarking from the 11A that I caught, I noticed on the ticketer screen that it was showing as 'Late 8', so presumably the one following close behind - which managed to overtake us at Billesley fire station - was about 23 minutes late (or 7 minutes early!).
Looking at the data from the 11A there only seemed to be one bad spot today and that was between Witton and Perry Barr where buses were losing up to 26 minutes!
Quote from: Tony on February 02, 2020, 06:59:33 PM
Looking at the data from the 11A there only seemed to be one bad spot today and that was between Witton and Perry Barr where buses were losing up to 26 minutes!
Do the buses get long enough on layover to compensate for this delay on route? Or is this where the truncated services come in, to get buses caught back up to the timetable?
Quote from: ellspurs on February 02, 2020, 07:04:07 PM
Do the buses get long enough on layover to compensate for this delay on route? Or is this where the truncated services come in, to get buses caught back up to the timetable?
That's the problem with the circle, the delays are so unpredictable, and you cannot park a bus with passengers on for too long on layover
Quote from: Tony on February 02, 2020, 07:07:28 PM
That's the problem with the circle, the delays are so unpredictable, and you cannot park a bus with passengers on for too long on layover
Just a serious question
@Tony on the new timetable on the X8 is it usual now into Bham to pick up at 1 Snow Hill call at Colmore Row then do a loop round again past St Chad's to pick up again at 1 Snow Hill to depart Comore Row on time if so that is very very clever move to keep the X8 on time?
Quote from: Stu on February 02, 2020, 06:24:01 PM
As I'm not going to get a straight answer from our resident Bus Champion about what goes on or is discussed at these meetings, lets back on topic.
I used the Outer Circle again today for a short shopping trip to and from Kings Heath this afternoon.
No problems with the 11C journey into Kings Heath, app was showing them seemingly running on time.
But on my way back home, there were two 11As following each other.
One issue that causes delays on the 11A service is with the stupid road layout in Selly Oak, in particular the Harborne Lane island where the entrance to the new retail park is.
Northbound 11C journeys aren't affected as much, as they use the slip road onto Harborne Lane which bypasses the island.
The problem is that the southbound 11A journeys have to go round that island, which gets blocked by vehicles queuing up to enter the shopping centre car park. This in turn also causes delays to the 48, X20 and X21 services approaching this island from the A38.
Badly designed road layout. I have seen this myself with my own eyes on various occasions. Even my dad complains to me about this junction, as he drives through Selly Oak to get to my house when he's coming to give me a lift, and he's made the same observation.
This is but one observable explanation of why the 11A/C suffers with reliability, and I'm sure there are others.
On this occasion, on disembarking from the 11A that I caught, I noticed on the ticketer screen that it was showing as 'Late 8', so presumably the one following close behind - which managed to overtake us at Billesley fire station - was about 23 minutes late (or 7 minutes early!).
The straight answer
@Stu we report what we see and what is reported to us to report I am happy to report anything at the Bus Champion meetings and the other WMCA meetings if and my business email is freely available on this forum a question is raised and I can support the question with evidence I am not the enemy on this forum I will raise any point.
Quote from: Tony on February 02, 2020, 06:59:33 PM
Looking at the data from the 11A there only seemed to be one bad spot today and that was between Witton and Perry Barr where buses were losing up to 26 minutes!
Cheers for that, I still think the rest of my post is valid, but I appreciate that sometimes people find these kinds of explanations hard to believe. For instance a couple of years ago, I tried explaining to someone whining about the 11A on a Sunday that the reason why the bus was late in South Yardley was because of roadworks in Handsworth. "But that's miles away!" was their response. It really is incredible how many people don't realise where the 11 actually goes.
Quote from: ellspurs on February 02, 2020, 07:04:07 PM
Do the buses get long enough on layover to compensate for this delay on route? Or is this where the truncated services come in, to get buses caught back up to the timetable?
For me, it can be frustrating catching the 11A/C through Acocks Green. If the buses are on time, they have something like an 8 to 10 minute layover in Acocks Green village. I completely understand why they do this, but unfortunately you always get some dickhead who starts ramming the Stop button demanding the bus gets moving again.
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on February 02, 2020, 03:03:52 PM
You see Mr Jones, exactly what I have said, the best defence is to attack.
You are a bus champion, nothing more, nothing less which means you attend meetings and discuss bus services. You have been asked by members of this forum to make known there comments about the state of the 11A/C which you refuse to do because you say the service is perfect when you use it.
Then there is the 9, I have to travel to Birmingham regular and I always catch the 9 even though the train station to me is just as close as the bus station (me supporting local bus services). Ever since they closed off the Five Ways tunnels, especially the City bound one, the 9 gets caught up in traffic there along with all the other Hagley Road routes. This means that 9s get bunched together and it isn't uncommon to see 2 or 3 9s together. Whether you choose to believe me is irrelevant, it happens. There is nothing NX can do about it, however to say that it doesn't happen is scandalous. If your office is on Hagley Road, I suggest you oipen the blinds and see what is happening in real time.
Your talking rubbish
@Stuharris 6360 no one on this forum have emailed and my business email is freely available to anyone on the forum to raise a question on the Outer Circle if they did I would be happy to do as other members of this forum have done and I have raised thier points and they have recieved responses from TfWM and frankly your talking b*******s about 5 ways island in my 51 years daily on the 140 there has always been Quinton 9s in 2s it's an FI service nothing to do with roadworks do you not understand what that means I really do wonder if the you and others on this forum use the same TfWM network as me by the way you still haven't answered fully do you support the overnight Quinton 9s as I do and frankly
@Stuharris 6360 I am much more than a Bus Champion ever wondered who gave our gracious leader the idea for West Midlands Bus.............
Quote from: Stu on February 02, 2020, 07:45:34 PM
Cheers for that, I still think the rest of my post is valid, but I appreciate that sometimes people find these kinds of explanations hard to believe. For instance a couple of years ago, I tried explaining to someone whining about the 11A on a Sunday that the reason why the bus was late in South Yardley was because of roadworks in Handsworth. "But that's miles away!" was their response. It really is incredible how many people don't realise where the 11 actually goes.
Think that is because people mostly use the 11 for short local journeys, a lot of people who use it in Yardley, probably wouldn't even know where Handsworth is and have never had any need to go there
@Stu,not really incredible or surprising that some of the general public aren't familiar with the whole route, particularly one that long.
Similarly I think some of the general public on the 55/94 routes probably have no clue where they go after Ward End/Washwood Heath Road and wouldn't know the difference between the two. I've overheard people claiming that they are the same thing and that there's no difference between them a few times.
Quote from: D10 on February 02, 2020, 08:43:33 PM
Looking at the X8 Running Boards they are timed to have layover time in Birmingham City Centre. As this is limited to 8 minutes, then yes any bus with more than that time is meant to loop around and await time in Snow Hill before proceeding onto Colmore Row.
I did catch an X8 a few weeks back from Long Lane and remember I noticed it had 16 minutes layover time in the City Centre (more than 8 minutes), so perhaps not a new thing then
@richardjones210368 . This was Wednesday 22nd January board X8/09 at about 1PM.
Quote from: richardjones210368 on February 02, 2020, 07:55:26 PM
Your talking rubbish @Stuharris 6360 no one on this forum have emailed me to raise a question on the Outer Circle if they did I would be happy to do as other members of this forum have done and I have raised thier points and they have recieved responses from TfWM and frankly your talking b*******s about 5 ways island in my 51 years daily on the 140
there has always been Quinton 9s in 2s it's an FI service you idiot do you not understand what that means I really do wonder if the idiots on this forum use the same TfWM network as me by the way you still haven't answered fully do you support the overnight Quinton 9s as I do and frankly @Stuharris 6360 I am much more than a Bus Champion ever wondered who gave our gracious leader the idea for West Midlands Bus.............
But I go back to my point that I initially raised, what mechanism is there is in place for 'ordinary bus users' to raise concerns about particular services for these to be raised in these meetings that you attend in your capacity as 'bus champion'?
Not everyone has your private email address in order to express these concerns, so what other avenue is there?
You are not doing yourself any favours by insulting other members of this forum by the way, and are you really demanding that people get up out of their beds and travel on night journeys on the 9 service when they have no need to?
Quote from: Stu on February 02, 2020, 08:12:39 PM
But I go back to my point that I initially raised, what mechanism is there is in place for 'ordinary bus users' to raise concerns about particular services for these to be raised in these meetings that you attend in your capacity as 'bus champion'?
Not everyone has your private email address in order to express these concerns, so what other avenue is there?
You are not doing yourself any favours by insulting other members of this forum by the way, and are you really demanding that people get up out of their beds and travel on night journeys on the 9 service when they have no need to?
My business email address is avaliable to everyone on my profile and as TfWM Bus Champion I give my business card out to all Blackheath bus users in the town bus stops and many contact me to raise thier concerns and my contact details are avaliable to our constituency member of parliament for his surgerys as for this forum just look for the letter icon under my name you are a moderator are you not aware of that
@Stu that is most odd
@Stu and a number of forum members have contacted me and I have raised thier concerns to TfWM and there concerns been resoluted direct by TfWM. The WMCA runs public bus forums for the public throughout the year the public can attend I will post the dates on the forum as and when & The Mayor runs his "Ask Andy" public meetings across the West Midands regularly I think that's enough to get involved and if there is a successful night bus in both Birmingham and Stourbridge such as WMT's Quinton 9 then why is a poster getting a taxi which I would never do I am proud to support the West Midlands Bus Network 24hrs a day unlike others on this forum I practice what I preach & I do not insult others as you suggest I simply give my frank views about thier so called bus use & also replying to
@Stuharris 6360 who seems to use a different Quinton 9 to me funny that
@Stuharris 6360 who appears to be an occasional user seems to know more than a daily user of X8 PN9 X10 or 13A so what do I know about Hagley Rd bus servics I am p*****g myself laughing mind you I've an op coming up to curtail that anyway at the QE!!
@Stu your not suggesting censorship are you
@Stu I was proud to attend a memorial service on behalf of our Accounting Institute last week to honour the fight for equality after the problems some had from 1939 to 1945 with one of our former EU partners because of thier views and religion are you suggesting differently?
Quote from: richardjones210368 on February 02, 2020, 07:34:42 PM
Just a serious question @Tony on the new timetable on the X8 is it usual now into Bham to pick up at 1 Snow Hill call at Colmore Row then do a loop round again past St Chad's to pick up again at 1 Snow Hill to depart Comore Row on time if so that is very very clever move to keep the X8 on time?
Looking at the X8 Running Boards they are timed to have layover time in Birmingham City Centre. As this is limited to 8 minutes, then yes any bus with more than that time is meant to loop around and await time in Snow Hill before proceeding onto Colmore Row.
Quote from: D10 on February 02, 2020, 08:43:33 PM
Looking at the X8 Running Boards they are timed to have layover time in Birmingham City Centre. As this is limited to 8 minutes, then yes any bus with more than that time is meant to loop around and await time in Snow Hill before proceeding onto Colmore Row.
Thanks
@D10 I hadnt been on an X8 before that did this I applaud this in making the service more reliable.
Quote from: 2206 on February 02, 2020, 08:00:44 PM
Think that is because people mostly use the 11 for short local journeys, a lot of people who use it in Yardley, probably wouldn't even know where Handsworth is and have never had any need to go there @Stu,not really incredible or surprising that some of the general public aren't familiar with the whole route, particularly one that long.
Similarly I think some of the general public on the 55/94 routes probably have no clue where they go after the Washwood Heath Road and wouldn't know the difference between the two. I've overheard people claiming that they are the same thing and that there's no difference between them a few times.
I did catch an X8 a few weeks back from Long Lane and remember I noticed it had 16 minutes layover time in the City Centre (more than 8 minutes), so perhaps not a new thing then @richardjones210368 . This was Wednesday 22nd January board X8/09 at about 1PM.
Interesting
@2206 I had never come across it in the peaks before Cheers for that
I catch the 11 to and from Stechford, and the layover at Acocks Green Village is a lifesaver for me ! If they didn't have that, I'd be waiting too long for my liking.
Some instances with the 11 can be infuriating, at times, I'll check the app before I leave and it'll say the bus is due in a 2 minutes, then the next 3 buses are after 25+ minutes ! Since being on this forum and having taken an active interest in how the operations work, I can't say I genuinely get frustrated at the company, the buses, or drivers, its a case of the notion of waiting that long for a bus isn't what I'd consider ideal.
I remember when the 98 used to run, I was at a stop and someone asked me whether it like the 97, also went to Chelmsley Wood ! Most end to end journeys are well over 30+ minutes and many people who take bus journeys exceeding that, are often making a connecting journey via another bus.
Quote from: Stu on February 02, 2020, 06:24:01 PM
As I'm not going to get a straight answer from our resident Bus Champion about what goes on or is discussed at these meetings, lets back on topic.
I used the Outer Circle again today for a short shopping trip to and from Kings Heath this afternoon.
No problems with the 11C journey into Kings Heath, app was showing them seemingly running on time.
But on my way back home, there were two 11As following each other.
One issue that causes delays on the 11A service is with the stupid road layout in Selly Oak, in particular the Harborne Lane island where the entrance to the new retail park is.
Northbound 11C journeys aren't affected as much, as they use the slip road onto Harborne Lane which bypasses the island.
The problem is that the southbound 11A journeys have to go round that island, which gets blocked by vehicles queuing up to enter the shopping centre car park. This in turn also causes delays to the 48, X20 and X21 services approaching this island from the A38.
Badly designed road layout. I have seen this myself with my own eyes on various occasions. Even my dad complains to me about this junction, as he drives through Selly Oak to get to my house when he's coming to give me a lift, and he's made the same observation.
This is but one observable explanation of why the 11A/C suffers with reliability, and I'm sure there are others.
On this occasion, on disembarking from the 11A that I caught, I noticed on the ticketer screen that it was showing as 'Late 8', so presumably the one following close behind - which managed to overtake us at Billesley fire station - was about 23 minutes late (or 7 minutes early!).
New Fosse Way isn't any better than Harborne Lane.. It gets absolutely rammed at rush hour with traffic backing up all the way back to the QE Island and sometimes all the way past Uni Station. It's awful.
Quote from: richardjones210368 on February 02, 2020, 07:55:26 PM
Your talking rubbish @Stuharris 6360 no one on this forum have emailed and my business email is freely available to anyone on the forum to raise a question on the Outer Circle if they did I would be happy to do as other members of this forum have done and I have raised thier points and they have recieved responses from TfWM and frankly your talking b*******s about 5 ways island in my 51 years daily on the 140 there has always been Quinton 9s in 2s it's an FI service nothing to do with roadworks do you not understand what that means I really do wonder if the you and others on this forum use the same TfWM network as me by the way you still haven't answered fully do you support the overnight Quinton 9s as I do and frankly @Stuharris 6360 I am much more than a Bus Champion ever wondered who gave our gracious leader the idea for West Midlands Bus.............
So we have you to blame eh (some of us think West Midlands Bus, in a shade of red which is known to turn pink is a daft idea and waste of taxpayer's money). I looked on their website where Diamond were praised for 7 new buses (NXWM have provided 150)!! Is this down to impartial briefing? Any member of the public reading it would think it was a complete joke.
You are not the only bus champion from what I can make out (although it's not easy to find your way around how WMCA intend this to work on their web site). Perhaps you could give normal mortals on this forum a link to where on WMCA's website complaints about bus services can be made - if such a thing exists. Then everyone will stop bothering you about non Blackheath bus matters and putting you in danger of a black eye from the Perry Barr, or Yardley or wherever bus champion for treading on their 'turf'!!
WMCA does have a role in strategic transport aims - bus services are clearly being seriously delayed by road works (especially the routes out to the west along Hagley Road). If you don't see that then you really must have your head in the sand and I would question your ability to provide impartial and non-politically biased input to WMCA.
Quote from: don on February 02, 2020, 10:20:06 PM
So we have you to blame eh (some of us think West Midlands Bus, in a shade of red which is known to turn pink is a daft idea and waste of taxpayer's money). I looked on their website where Diamond were praised for 7 new buses (NXWM have provided 150)!! Is this down to impartial briefing? Any member of the public reading it would think it was a complete joke.
You are not the only bus champion from what I can make out (although it's not easy to find your way around how WMCA intend this to work on their web site). Perhaps you could give normal mortals on this forum a link to where on WMCA's website complaints about bus services can be made - if such a thing exists. Then everyone will stop bothering you about non Blackheath bus matters and putting you in danger of a black eye from the Perry Barr, or Yardley or wherever bus champion for treading on their 'turf'!!
WMCA does have a role in strategic transport aims - bus services are clearly being seriously delayed by road works (especially the routes out to the west along Hagley Road). If you don't see that then you really must have your head in the sand and I would question your ability to provide impartial and non-politically biased input to WMCA.
I doubt anyone could ever say I do not put West Midlands Bus Users first and any political affiliation is irrelevant and I do not put any direct advice about buses into the WMCA save the TfWM Bus Champions other than for one gentleman in particular and every elected polictican is democraticly entitled to his own political advisers on any subject he chooses but
@don at 6ft 1ins with a mad BMI being built like a navvy due to my lane swimming I really am not to worried about crossing anyones turf but I am happy to submit any concerns about any bus service to TfWM & WMCA and yes its funny isnt it how The Mayors website has so much praise for Diamond Bus or where he got the idea to for West Midlands Bus to pay homage to Midland Red its strange that isn't it?
Once again the 11C pissing me off. 20 mins + wait in selly oak
Quote from: Trident 4194 on February 14, 2020, 06:14:48 PM
Once again the 11C pissing me off. 20 mins + wait in selly oak
You do know buses can't fly over traffic jams and holdups?
Quote from: John on February 14, 2020, 08:16:40 PM
You do know buses can't fly over traffic jams and holdups?
And I'm merely noting again how awful this service is
Quote from: Trident 4194 on February 14, 2020, 08:38:55 PM
And I'm merely noting again how awful this service is
But do you understand the reasons why the service is 'awful'?
Quote from: Stu on February 14, 2020, 08:41:58 PM
But do you understand the reasons why the service is 'awful'?
Incompetency to operate it properly. When I see the blue and white buses they are ontime or a few minutes late at most
Quote from: Trident 4194 on February 14, 2020, 10:02:00 PM
Incompetency to operate it properly. When I see the blue and white buses they are ontime or a few minutes late at most
Far easier when you just ignore passengers if you don't fancy picking them up or just park up for an hour or so
Quote from: Trident 4194 on February 14, 2020, 10:02:00 PM
Incompetency to operate it properly. When I see the blue and white buses they are ontime or a few minutes late at most
Why don't you catch the blue and white buses then? Easy solution.
Quote from: Tony on February 14, 2020, 10:20:25 PM
Far easier when you just ignore passengers if you don't fancy picking them up or just park up for an hour or so
You can't beat GRS, who would boot passengers off and turn around if they could see big crowds waiting at stops on the other side of the road.
They would do all sorts to delay NX buses. Waiting at traffic lights until they turn yellow the drive through so the NX bus gets stuck.
A few of us taught a GRS bus a lesson at Fox & Goose once, where 3 of us blocked a Dart at the stand whilst a 4th bus continued on lol. The GRS driver flipped out 😂😂😂
Quote from: MW on February 14, 2020, 10:27:44 PM
You can't beat GRS, who would boot passengers off and turn around if they could see big crowds waiting at stops on the other side of the road.
They would do all sorts to delay NX buses. Waiting at traffic lights until they turn yellow the drive through so the NX bus gets stuck.
A few of us taught a GRS bus a lesson at Fox & Goose once, where 3 of us blocked a Dart at the stand whilst a 4th bus continued on lol. The GRS driver flipped out 😂😂😂
Discount Travel Solutions also used to take short cuts on the 11 as well.
I used to see one of their drivers regularly boot passengers off wanting the stops he is skipping out and tell them to catch the NX bus and then turn right at St Margaret's Road lights, instead of following the normal line of route as NX were.
Not seen him do it for some time now, so maybe he doesn't do it anymore.
Are they the little blue darts on the 11, caught one once and was in fear... Was on the wrong side of the road to overtake nx and was mounting pavements to get past. Not the best won't lie
Didn't DTS have poorly branded Dart on the way 11? I remember one with yellow stuff on it.
Quote from: danny on February 15, 2020, 12:32:08 PM
Are they the little blue darts on the 11, caught one once and was in fear... Was on the wrong side of the road to overtake nx and was mounting pavements to get past. Not the best won't lie
Thats Discount Travel Solutions, yes.
Quote from: Jack on February 15, 2020, 12:33:34 PM
Didn't DTS have poorly branded Dart on the way 11? I remember one with yellow stuff on it.
Yes they did.
I saw one at the Fox and Goose on the 11C still partially carrying it earlier in the week as well. KV03ZFW.
I remember waiting over 40 minutes for one (outside Hall Green College). I was just one of a crowd - all getting peeved naturally.
But as far as I'm concerned, the rule of thumb with this route is to expect it when you see it.
My only vice now is that they often take lengthy breaks outside the Warwick Bowl in Acocks Green, followed by the near certain driver change at the garage.
I don't know why people are complaining about the 11 when the 8 is just as bad maybe even worse.
There's nothing that NX can do about the 11 not being on time. Bus priority measures could improve the route but with the amount of cars on the road these days, unreliability is always going to be an issue.