Rumour mill in full swing at west brom 50 and 82/87 to be merged to create a cross city service.
I seriously hope not, 50/82 to be operated by yardley wood and 50/87 westbrom.
There was an article in the Birmingham Mail back in January that the 50 82/87 corridors will have 28 million pounds spent on bus priority measures so that has got me thinking it's plausible.
History tells you cross city routes ultimately fail.
Quote from: 2900 on February 28, 2020, 12:29:18 PM
Rumour mill in full swing at west brom 50 and 82/87 to be merged to create a cross city service.
I seriously hope not, 50/82 to be operated by yardley wood and 50/87 westbrom.
There was an article in the Birmingham Mail back in January that the 50 82/87 corridors will have 28 million pounds spent on bus priority measures so that has got me thinking it's plausible.
History tells you cross city routes ultimately fail.
I really can't see that happening. The rumours at BC which are more believable is that the X1 and X2 will go to AG and X12 to BC. Also BY to be used as a Ring & Ride depot with BY routes split between BC and PB. IF true would mean the 55 could use double deckers after many years.
Quote from: B.C Driver on February 28, 2020, 12:40:29 PM
I really can't see that happening. The rumours at BC which are more believable is that the X1 and X2 will go to AG and X12 to BC. Also BY to be used as a Ring & Ride depot with BY routes split between BC and PB. IF true would mean the 55 could use double deckers after many years.
I like the idea of the X1/X2/X12 Swap....
PB will have more capability to handle extra work when the new depot opens too I guess...
Quote from: 2900 on February 28, 2020, 12:29:18 PM
Rumour mill in full swing at west brom 50 and 82/87 to be merged to create a cross city service.
I seriously hope not, 50/82 to be operated by yardley wood and 50/87 westbrom.
There was an article in the Birmingham Mail back in January that the 50 82/87 corridors will have 28 million pounds spent on bus priority measures so that has got me thinking it's plausible.
History tells you cross city routes ultimately fail.
imagine that, Road works in Moseley would mean no service for Dudley Road or Vice-Versa. Reliability would be out the window for all three services. Dudley is already a nightmare with Metro works.
Quote from: 2900 on February 28, 2020, 12:29:18 PM
Rumour mill in full swing at west brom 50 and 82/87 to be merged to create a cross city service.
I seriously hope not, 50/82 to be operated by yardley wood and 50/87 westbrom.
There was an article in the Birmingham Mail back in January that the 50 82/87 corridors will have 28 million pounds spent on bus priority measures so that has got me thinking it's plausible.
History tells you cross city routes ultimately fail.
Where did you get this from?
Also which out of 82 or 87 will be merged with the 50? I'm assuming the 82 because Dudley would be too far.
Quote from: 2900 on February 28, 2020, 12:29:18 PM
Rumour mill in full swing at west brom 50 and 82/87 to be merged to create a cross city service.
I seriously hope not, 50/82 to be operated by yardley wood and 50/87 westbrom.
There was an article in the Birmingham Mail back in January that the 50 82/87 corridors will have 28 million pounds spent on bus priority measures so that has got me thinking it's plausible.
History tells you cross city routes ultimately fail.
Why do they want to do this? Absolutely ridiculous idea and will cause reliability issues left right and centre. Typical of NX, change things just for the sake of it. And anyway, is it going to really benefit anyone?
If they set up proper infrastructure it's possible to merge the 50/82/87. Proper infrastructure meaning the vast majority of the route being bus lane. Unfortunately I can't see it possible to add a bus lane to say Kings Heath High Street!
Quote from: NXWMFAN1105 on February 28, 2020, 05:30:38 PM
And anyway, is it going to really benefit anyone?
So no-one on the 50 wants to go anywhere in the city other than the markets area?
So no-one on the Dudley Road wants to go to Digbeth Coach Station?
Quote from: NXWMFAN1105 on February 28, 2020, 05:30:38 PM
Why do they want to do this? Absolutely ridiculous idea and will cause reliability issues left right and centre. Typical of NX, change things just for the sake of it. And anyway, is it going to really benefit anyone?
Cross city services, in principle, are a good idea. In this example giving City Hospital much improved links to some of the busiest parts of South Birmingham, and linking the regenerated East Side with much more of the city centre and West Birmingham are a couple of other new links that would be beneficial.
The challenge as always with these, and the nail in the coffin for cross city routes in the past, is how to maintain reliability. The end to end routes would be massive, and presumably a huge challenge to manage effectively in practice.
Quote from: Mike K on February 28, 2020, 06:20:35 PM
Cross city services, in principle, are a good idea. In this example giving City Hospital much improved links to some of the busiest parts of South Birmingham
Surely its quite easy to get off the 50, cross the road at Moor Street and then take the 87.
Nothing wrong with how it is at the minute.
Quote from: 2206 on February 28, 2020, 06:32:42 PM
Surely its quite easy to get off the 50, cross the road at Moor Street and then take the 87.
Nothing wrong with how it is at the minute.
OK for you who knows buses
There's an awful lot of people put off public transport if they have to change
Quote from: Tony on February 28, 2020, 06:34:16 PM
OK for you who knows buses
There's an awful lot of people put off public transport if they have to change
Well I see lots of people changing buses at Priory Queensway, so surely lots must not mind it as well.
If that's the case might as well link every single route, that serves the City Centre then then everyone can have direct buses.
Quote from: 2206 on February 28, 2020, 06:39:56 PM
Well I see lots of people changing buses at Priory Queensway, so surely lots must not mind it as well.
If that's the case might as well link every single route, that serves the City Centre then then everyone can have direct buses.
You really can be obnoxious.
Yes lots of people change buses. They are already bus passengers. The hardest part of running a bus company is attracting those who don't.
Quote from: Tony on February 28, 2020, 06:43:37 PM
You really can be obnoxious.
No, I was just wandering why NX would think passengers on the 50 are unable to change buses, unlike other passengers on other routes in Birmingham.
And was only giving my opinion.
Quote from: B.C Driver on February 28, 2020, 12:40:29 PM
I really can't see that happening. The rumours at BC which are more believable is that the X1 and X2 will go to AG and X12 to BC. Also BY to be used as a Ring & Ride depot with BY routes split between BC and PB. IF true would mean the 55 could use double deckers after many years.
The only problem with that theory is PB will need to re-locate in approx 12 months & BC has been sold for re-development of East Side, entire allocation needs a new home - not sure on timescales.
Quote from: 2206 on February 28, 2020, 06:47:49 PM
No, I was just wandering why NX would think passengers on the 50 are unable to change buses, unlike other passengers on other routes in Birmingham.
And was only giving my opinion.
No-one is saying passengers on the 50 are less able than other routes, just a lot of people are put off by changing buses.
Why get out your car to get off the first bus you catch to walk in the rain to another that you don't know if will turn up.
Whereas if you have a through journey you know once you are on a bus you are dry and going where you need to go.
If you are such an expert on the bus industry why not come and apply for a job at one of the companies?
Quote from: 2206 on February 28, 2020, 06:47:49 PM
No, I was just wandering why NX would think passengers on the 50 are unable to change buses, unlike other passengers on other routes in Birmingham.
And was only giving my opinion.
They're trying something different to promote and grow their business.
The end goal is always to increase passengers / revenue; whether that's lowering operating costs or making services more attractive.
They may not get it right all the time, but NXWM has recently been making more bold moves; something which I applaud them for.
Quote from: Mike K on February 28, 2020, 06:20:35 PM
Cross city services, in principle, are a good idea. In this example giving City Hospital much improved links to some of the busiest parts of South Birmingham, and linking the regenerated East Side with much more of the city centre and West Birmingham are a couple of other new links that would be beneficial.
The challenge as always with these, and the nail in the coffin for cross city routes in the past, is how to maintain reliability. The end to end routes would be massive, and presumably a huge challenge to manage effectively in practice.
Yes, cross city routes do work; it's a great way to link a part of a city for another but in cities like Birmingham it just won't work because of the insane amount of traffic. The only way that it can work if the council or TFWM implement bus measures or something else.
Quote from: 2206 on February 28, 2020, 06:47:49 PM
No, I was just wandering why NX would think passengers on the 50 are unable to change buses, unlike other passengers on other routes in Birmingham.
And was only giving my opinion.
I agree. It's not like the 50 and 82/87 don't stop more than 200 yards away at Moor Street... again what's wrong with walking a 2 minute walk? And I don't think combing the 50 and 87 would be great for the reliability, also I see the 89 will be getting left out... again! I'd understand if the 82/87 were confined to Colmore Row but they aren't... I do think the Colmore Row services should do a loop of the city instead of being shoved there away from the main centre. If only we still had Corporation Street still open to buses...
This will mean the likes of Tividale and Oldbury will suffer delays and long waits from buses stuck in Kings Heath and South Bham!
Quote from: Jack on February 28, 2020, 07:09:51 PM
I agree. It's not like the 50 and 82/87 don't stop more than 200 yards away at Moor Street... again what's wrong with walking a 2 minute walk? And I don't think combing the 50 and 87 would be great for the reliability, also I see the 89 will be getting left out... again! I'd understand if the 82/87 were confined to Colmore Row but they aren't... I do think the Colmore Row services should do a loop of the city instead of being shoved there away from the main centre. If only we still had Corporation Street still open to buses...
This will mean the likes of Tividale and Oldbury will suffer delays and long waits from buses stuck in Kings Heath and South Bham!
I've just explained
Quote from: Tony on February 28, 2020, 07:13:50 PM
I've just explained
And that is my own opinion on how diabolical it is. Cross city routes in Birmingham just don't work, look at the 66!
Quote from: Jack on February 28, 2020, 07:17:49 PM
And that is my own opinion on how diabolical it is. Cross city routes in Birmingham just don't work, look at the 66!
But since then a lot of bus priorities have been added to the city or will be and also since the 82/7 got re routed in the city they seem to be doing better before and on time by the time I get off the 87 In tividale around 6pm
Quote from: Jack on February 28, 2020, 07:17:49 PM
And that is my own opinion on how diabolical it is. Cross city routes in Birmingham just don't work, look at the 66!
Cross city routes at present 'don't work' because of the traffic congestion and bizarre road layouts and traffic flows.
But that's not to say that they couldn't work again, once BCC get to grips with the traffic congestion and alter some road layouts to improve the flow for buses.
And that's what the Birmingham Transport Plan is about, to make buses the 'king' of the roads again.
To be honest, my opinion is that it might be 'too soon' to even think about combining the 50 and 82/87 together, but certainly in a couple of years time we could start seeing more routes combined together to provide true 'cross-city' bus services.
Why have they chosen the 50 & 82/87 and not another route?
Cross-city routes are virtually the norm in Coventry and this pattern was formed well before WMPTE arrived, let alone WMT and its successors. Its only the longer distance services to the edge of the city and beyond that aren't (service 5 excepted after the Sept 2019 changes). Don't think there's much evidence that splitting or creating new links would make that much difference to overall reliability - but then Coventry is quite a bit smaller than the areas mentioned.
Quote from: NXWMFAN1105 on February 28, 2020, 08:31:44 PM
Why have they chosen the 50 & 82/87 and not another route?
If you read back through this thread, you'll see that this is a 'rumour', and thus nothing has been oficially 'chosen'.
Quote from: NXWMFAN1105 on February 28, 2020, 08:31:44 PM
Why have they chosen the 50 & 82/87 and not another route?
No-one is saying they are for definite, but the Mayor has announced the intention for cross city services
Quote from: Tony on February 28, 2020, 08:35:46 PM
No-one is saying they are for definite, but the Mayor has announced the intention for cross city services
Which other routes could become cross city routes?
So now it has been announced, back to my original question of why they have chosen 50 & 82/87?
Quote from: aSingh on February 28, 2020, 11:00:28 PM
Which other routes could become cross city routes?
Think a cross link between 94 and X20/X21/X22 would probably have been popular. As I see large numbers of people change from the 94 to the X20/X21/X22 to get to the QE and Uni. And would provide a link to the QE and Uni from East Birmingham. (Or maybe another East Brum route such as the 14 and X20/X21/X22). And a direct East - West link across the City.
Though doubt it would work, without bus lanes, etc. Mainly because congestion would make it completely unreliable, and would probably need to make Edgbaston Park Road between Somerset Road and Church Road - bus and coach only. Otherwise it'd probably make the 94 very unreliable, when it usually seems to be very reliable at present.
Wander if a better links to Five Ways and Broad Street from East Birmingham would be popular as well?
Christ, the Uni services struggle enough as it is without having to travel across City to Chelmsley Wood.
I would think if it was Maypole to Dudley the 50 & 74 make more sense.
It can run straight through Snow Hill, The Priory Queensway then through Moor Street Queensway to join the 50 route.
Similar frequencies (albeit with half the 74's running short to West Bromwich)
Quote from: sryan188 on February 29, 2020, 12:39:43 AM
I would think if it was Maypole to Dudley the 50 & 74 make more sense.
It can run straight through Snow Hill, The Priory Queensway then through Moor Street Queensway to join the 50 route.
Similar frequencies (albeit with half the 74's running short to West Bromwich)
Thing with 82/87 is that it serves City Hospital and also the Midland Metropolitan Hospital (when it opens). The 74...
Quote from: aSingh on February 29, 2020, 01:26:11 AM
Thing with 82/87 is that it serves City Hospital and also the Midland Metropolitan Hospital (when it opens). The 74...
Surely this is the whole reason the 11A/11C exists. If you need to go city hospital from maypole, would you not get a 50 to kings heath, then an 11A/11C. Regarding trying to put the uni services with something, I doubt even nx would be stupid enough to do such a thing
Quote from: aSingh on February 29, 2020, 01:26:11 AM
Thing with 82/87 is that it serves City Hospital and also the Midland Metropolitan Hospital (when it opens). The 74...
But if you lived in Maypole, Kings Heath e.t.c then surely you'd go to QEH as that is the nearest hospital?
Quote from: NXWMFAN1105 on February 29, 2020, 10:21:28 AM
But if you lived in Maypole, Kings Heath e.t.c then surely you'd go to QEH as that is the nearest hospital?
But then again I see lots of people who change onto the X20 from the 94 and other East Birmingham routes to get to the Uni and QE.
And surely the people going to the QE, should be going to Heartlands, as that's their nearest hospital.
I would assume, that there must be things QEH do that Heartlands don't?
Quote from: 2206 on February 29, 2020, 10:24:50 AM
But then again I see lots of people who change onto the X20 from the 94 and other East Birmingham routes to get to the Uni and QE.
And surely the people going to the QE, should be going to Heartlands, as that's their nearest hospital.
You don't get sent to the 'nearest' hospital, you get sent to the one with the specialist best suited to your case.
My son has to go to Stoke for his appointments
Quote from: NXWMFAN1105 on February 29, 2020, 10:21:28 AM
But if you lived in Maypole, Kings Heath e.t.c then surely you'd go to QEH as that is the nearest hospital?
As a patient yes, but significant numbers of people travelling to and from hospitals each day will be workers, not people with appointments or visitors. You don't necessarily work in the hospital closest to where you live.
When I drove the no 7 port land road to Witton there were lots of people travelling across the city in both directions.
Does any one have a list of all the cross city routes I.e 16 hamstead to Garrett's green and 91 hall green to pheasey etc. just curious.
Quote from: monkeyjoe on February 29, 2020, 10:58:28 AM
Does any one have a list of all the cross city routes I.e 16 hamstead to Garrett's green and 91 hall green to pheasey etc. just curious.
15/16 Hamstead to Yardley (later to be 16 and then 16/17 to The Radleys)
29/29A Hall Green to Kingstanding/Pheasey (later to be 29/30, 90/91, then 90/91/92 and finally 90)
5/7 Perry Common to Portland Road (later to include 6 to Sandon Road, then 6/7 then 7)
33/34 Kingstanding to Quinton (peak hours only)
43 Nechells - Soho/Londonderry (later to become 66 to Sutton)
Quote from: Steve3229vp on February 29, 2020, 11:07:45 AM
15/16 Hamstead to Yardley (later to be 16 and then 16/17 to The Radleys)
29/29A Hall Green to Kingstanding/Pheasey (later to be 29/30, 90/91, then 90/91/92 and finally 90)
5/7 Perry Common to Portland Road (later to include 6 to Sandon Road, then 6/7 then 7)
33/34 Kingstanding to Quinton (peak hours only)
43 Nechells - Soho/Londonderry (later to become 66 to Sutton)
Going back much further, and way before my time I hasten to add, apparently there was the 17/35 Maypole to Erdington.
And in more recent times the 46 which was extended into the south of the city, terminating at Longbridge. It followed the old 44 route.
Quote from: SO6597 on February 29, 2020, 12:05:54 PM
And in more recent times the 46 which was extended into the south of the city, terminating at Longbridge. It followed the old 44 route.
Other more recent ones (and sometime short lived) included the 900 Halesowen (then Hasbury) to Coventry, 951 Bloxwich to Bearwood and 128/428 Hockey to Blackheath/West Brom via City
I actually live in hope that this does happen, but the bus priority measures in the city centre are properly enforced otherwise there'll be no chance.
The 66 and 66A were also Bearwood to Erdington/ Sutton coldfield as well.
Interesting didn't realize there were so many.
Maybe a Hagley road cross city route taking in new street station ,Markets and the bull ring ??
Quote from: karl724223 on February 29, 2020, 08:08:49 PM
Maybe a Hagley road cross city route taking in new street station ,Markets and the bull ring ??
X10 Merry Hill to Hollywood!
Cross Xcity 46
46 Perry Barr-Birmingham - QE Hospital - Northfield - Turves Green ran May 2005 - May 2007 reverted back to 46/44.
46X Perry Beeches-City-Northfield Evenings /Sundays replacing 52 46 & 44E Jouneys.
66 Sutton Coldfield - Erdington - Birmingham - Ladywood
Started July 1992 taking over 43
Cut Erdington Ladywood in February 2004 new service 111 covering Sutton - Erdington
City-Lady Wood section transferred to 80 Early 2010.
66 City - Erdington
30 August 2010
66 Extended from Erdington to Sutton via 68C Route
66A extended to Sutton via boldmere replacing 111
Quote from: richie on March 01, 2020, 12:00:58 AM
X10 Merry Hill to Hollywood!
the new wolves manager ex pensnett one it's happening said so X10 wolves merry hill brum
Quote from: karl724223 on March 01, 2020, 12:58:34 PM
the new wolves manager ex pensnett one it's happening said so X10 wolves merry hill brum
Merging of the 15 and X10 or via the old 261 route?
Quote from: karl724223 on March 01, 2020, 12:58:34 PM
the new wolves manager ex pensnett one it's happening said so X10 wolves merry hill brum
Quote from: SL 16 YPN on March 01, 2020, 01:06:31 PM
Merging of the 15 and X10
So are they merging the 15 and X10
So it will run Wolverhampton - Bradmore - Spring Hill - Wombourne - Himley - Kingswinford - Bromley - Merry Hill - Cradley Heath - Halesowen - Bearwood - Birmingham
I think if my mind serves me right they are looking at merging the 82/87 with the 50 or the 16 and 50.
So nothing like what
@karl724223
Why was the 79 Shortened all them years ago? Honestly I would rather get the 79 and the 74 to Birmingham from Wolverhampton rather than the X8.
Quote from: BusMan Greg on March 01, 2020, 01:49:25 PM
Why was the 79 Shortened all them years ago? Honestly I would rather get the 79 and the 74 to Birmingham from Wolverhampton rather than the X8.
The route was too long it was about 2 hours plus it was so unreliable due to traffic. Plus the West Midlands Metro runs a similar route to the 79 which is actually faster than the 79 by a country mile.
I wonder if the new Cross-City bus services will be given new numbers to make them distinctive for example the 50 and the 82/7 could be XC1 and XC2 !
Quote from: Steve3229vp on March 01, 2020, 02:41:16 PM
I wonder if the new Cross-City bus services will be given new numbers to make them distinctive for example the 50 and the 82/7 could be XC1 and XC2 !
Let's go the whole trentbarton route and call the route "violet".
Quote from: karl724223 on March 01, 2020, 12:58:34 PM
the new wolves manager ex pensnett one it's happening said so X10 wolves merry hill brum
The new wolves manager?
Quote from: Steve3229vp on March 01, 2020, 02:41:16 PM
I wonder if the new Cross-City bus services will be given new numbers to make them distinctive for example the 50 and the 82/7 could be XC1 and XC2 !
More than likely just stay as 82 and 87. Or perhaps 50 and 50A. ;)
This was posted earlier in the thread:
(https://wmbusphotos.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5704.0;attach=3537;image)
Where was this from? And where was this 'already announced'?
Quote from: Stu on March 01, 2020, 04:23:01 PM
More than likely just stay as 82 and 87. Or perhaps 50 and 50A. ;)
Where was this from? And where was this 'already announced'?
What about the 126 and 50 ( 126 is more direct ?)
Quote from: Jack6101 on March 01, 2020, 05:13:58 PM
What about the 126 and 50 ( 126 is more direct ?)
What'd be the point linking up two routes with vastly different frequencies?
It wouldn't be about being direct, it's the links it provides. In this case clearly the current City hospital and future Midland Met hospital
Quote from: Stu on March 01, 2020, 04:23:01 PM
More than likely just stay as 82 and 87. Or perhaps 50 and 50A. ;)
This was posted earlier in the thread:
(https://wmbusphotos.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5704.0;attach=3537;image)
Where was this from? And where was this 'already announced'?
That's from the 14th Feb 2020 NX internal communications bus business brief email which gets sent out to employees.
Quote from: aSingh on March 02, 2020, 01:15:06 AM
That's from the 14th Feb 2020 NX internal communications bus business brief email which gets sent out to employees.
So what is it doing here?
Quote from: B.C Driver on February 28, 2020, 12:40:29 PM
I really can't see that happening. The rumours at BC which are more believable is that the X1 and X2 will go to AG and X12 to BC. Also BY to be used as a Ring & Ride depot with BY routes split between BC and PB. IF true would mean the 55 could use double deckers after many years.
If true does this mean that Acocks Green has spare capacity then?
Quote from: monkeyjoe on March 02, 2020, 05:37:08 PM
If true does this mean that Acocks Green has spare capacity then?
The PVR difference from what I can tell is about 5/6 extra buses at AG.
X1 is about the same as X12.
Just the X2 really.
Rumours seem to have calmed down at West Brom about 82/87 and 50 merging.
I'm curious if any similar rumours have circulated at Yardley Wood?
At this point it's hard to know whether there is any truth in it
Can't see the BC thing been true if BC are to move in a few
Years time
Quote from: Pete175 on March 13, 2020, 05:17:59 AM
Rumours seem to have calmed down at West Brom about 82/87 and 50 merging.
I'm curious if any similar rumours have circulated at Yardley Wood?
At this point it's hard to know whether there is any truth in it
Doubt it was going to happen in the first place. It's gonna be a long-winded route and delays will absolutely destroy the route. If a cross-city was to happen it will most likely be a merge of the 14 and/or the 94 with the X20/21/22 because a lot of people transfer from and to these routes to go to the Q.E, the UCB and other areas.
You'd think they might have learnt from the train fiasco - for a handfull of new passengers put all the existing passengers' journeys at risk.
Quote from: Busboy105 on March 13, 2020, 08:44:18 AM
Doubt it was going to happen in the first place. It's gonna be a long-winded route and delays will absolutely destroy the route. If a cross-city was to happen it will most likely be a merge of the 14 and/or the 94 with the X20/21/22 because a lot of people transfer from and to these routes to go to the Q.E, the UCB and other areas.
Delays have already destroyed the X20/21/22 and they don't even go cross-city...
Is there any new news on the new Cross City services or is it still just guess work?
Quote from: Bus Man K2 on April 30, 2020, 02:51:51 PM
Is there any new news on the new Cross City services or is it still just guess work?
Well considering it's been a month and a bit since the last post, I'd say it's guess work.
Quote from: Busboy105 on April 30, 2020, 04:25:26 PM
Well considering it's been a month and a bit since the last post, I'd say it's guess work.
I guess so. I wonder if anybody else knows?
Considering there's now a 1000 NXWM buses sat in garages untaxed with no work, I doubt NX are concerned with planning new services, they're most likely more concerned with when current services will be back up & running to previous levels & when/if passanger number can return to pre-virus levels before anything else is considered.
I'm sure if some of the big cities in the country can manage to sustain a network of cross-city routes for many, many decades with not a lot of problems - due to how vast the city centre is and the road network (Leeds/Sheffield etc.) I'm sure Birmingham will have nothing to worry about. It just needs to be planned and managed correctly.
Most routes in Sheffield for instance are cross city - https://www.travelsouthyorkshire.com/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=5969
Quote from: sam791 on May 08, 2020, 06:15:27 PM
I'm sure if some of the big cities in the country can manage to sustain a network of cross-city routes for many, many decades with not a lot of problems - due to how vast the city centre is and the road network (Leeds/Sheffield etc.) I'm sure Birmingham will have nothing to worry about. It just needs to be planned and managed correctly.
Most routes in Sheffield for instance are cross city - https://www.travelsouthyorkshire.com/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=5969
Sheffield and Birmingham are two very different cities. Sheffield is half the size of Birmingham and won't have the level of traffic congestion that Birmingham has, not to mention the difference in population .
Leeds & Sheffield's bus routes began as cross-city tram routes and so have just continued to be cross-city. Whereas Birmingham's tram routes were just from the city centre out to the suburbs so any cross-city routes only started when the trams had gone so are not as historic. Also Birmingham is a lot bigger than Leeds & Sheffield.
Birmingham had the huge Colmore Street, New Street and Corporation Street loop which meant that buses would operate as though they were a cross city service e.g. the 37 from Solihull to Solihull via Birmingham city centre.
Leeds and Sheffield did not have such a useful loop so they would have to find somewhere for the buses to layover in the city centre, which they couldn't, so they retained the cross-city routes with the layover at the suburban terminus.
Leeds has an epic inter-worked cross-city group of routes, the 2, 3/3A, 12 & 13/13A which in normal times has a PVR of about 44 buses, see the map on the First Leeds website: https://www.firstgroup.com/uploads/maps/2.3.3A.12.13.13A%20Leeds%20Map_0.pdf (https://www.firstgroup.com/uploads/maps/2.3.3A.12.13.13A%20Leeds%20Map_0.pdf)
A bus starts every 10 minutes at the White Rose Centre as a 3 or 3A via Dewsbury Road, Leeds City Centre, Chapeltown Road to Gledhow (every 20 mins) or Brackenwood (every 20 mins) where it becomes a 13 or 13A via Roundhay Road, City Centre, Belle Isle to Middleton Thorpe Lane, where it becomes a 2 via Dewsbury Road, Leeds City Centre, Chapeltown Road to Roundhay where it changes to a 12 via Roundhay Road, City Center, Belle Isle, Middleton & back to the White Rose Centre where it becomes a 3 or 3A about 4 hours after it left there previously.
Buses also run the other way around the circuit every 10 minutes. It obviously works as the service pattern has been like that since the days of Yorkshire Rider in 1986. So on each four hour trip each bus crosses the city centre four times: twice northbound and twice southbound. The buses do have some recovery time built into the schedule at White Rose Centre, Gledhow / Brackenwood, Middleton Thorpe Lane & Roundhay as to turn a bus short is a bit like doing in on the Outer Circle route in Birmingham.
The Birmingham Mail are reporting that they have started work on the improvements needed for the Druids Heath - Bearwood/Dudley cross city-buses to operate:
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/black-country/work-begins-major-30-million-19907695
I dunno if this deserves its own thread. I had a look and didn't see one specifically for the upcoming cross-city services.
Edit: Thanks, Stu!
Quote from: ellspurs on February 24, 2021, 06:48:08 PM
The Birmingham Mail are reporting that they have started work on the improvements needed for the Druids Heath - Bearwood/Dudley cross city-buses to operate:
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/black-country/work-begins-major-30-million-19907695
I dunno if this deserves its own thread. I had a look and didn't see one specifically for the upcoming cross-city services.
Unless I'm missing something here of all the daft route ideas, give these new routes 12 - 18 months before they split them again, investment in the road networks and bus priority measures is certainly a good thing.
Apart from the quote from Andy Street, there isn't any other mention of these services being combined into one/two through services.
Also, I think the headline is a bit misleading as I don't think any work has already started (apart from anything that has been done already along those two corridors), and I will be amused to see how the 50, 82 and 87 services will operate if they "skip out the A435 and A457" (will they go along the motorway? ;D)
At the moment, this is just 'talk', with various people giving nice speeches and statements.
Less talk, more action please!
Quote from: Stu on February 24, 2021, 07:20:19 PM
Apart from the quote from Andy Street, there isn't any other mention of these services being combined into one/two through services.
Also, I think the headline is a bit misleading as I don't think any work has already started (apart from anything that has been done already along those two corridors), and I will be amused to see how the 50, 82 and 87 services will operate if they "skip out the A435 and A457" (will they go along the motorway? ;D)
At the moment, this is just 'talk', with various people giving nice speeches and statements.
Less talk, more action please!
I agree, the quote 'skip out the A435 and A457' is a ridiculous one and virtually impossible. Also if they were (I'm not saying they are) to make the 50 cross-city with 82/87 they would have to put in serious major priorities not just a bus gate here and there.
Maybe the 50 will be operated by helicopters and the chelmsley wood routes get an upgrade
Quote from: monkeyjoe on February 24, 2021, 07:46:09 PM
Maybe the 50 will be operated by helicopters and the chelmsley wood routes get an upgrade
To be fair, there has been more platinums appearing on the 94 and 55 recently, even some of the newer 2019 model ones.
Quote from: Steve3229vp on February 24, 2021, 07:31:02 PM
I agree, the quote 'skip out the A435 and A457' is a ridiculous one and virtually impossible. Also if they were (I'm not saying they are) to make the 50 cross-city with 82/87 they would have to put in serious major priorities not just a bus gate here and there.
While I'm generally onboard with the 'idea' of these cross-city services, and the principle behind them, where I feel the problems are going to come is how to route them smoothly through the city-centre.
Lets face it the road network at present is quite convoluted with its one way systems and, at times, bizarre layouts.
Quote from: ellspurs on February 24, 2021, 08:06:23 PM
To be fair, there has been more platinums appearing on the 94 and 55 recently, even some of the newer 2019 model ones.
I was just bantering, left that side of town last year. I really cannot see where there is room on the 50 corridor to speed things up though?
Quote from: monkeyjoe on February 24, 2021, 08:20:12 PM
I was just bantering, left that side of town last year. I really cannot see where there is room on the 50 corridor to speed things up though?
There are plans to add a new bus lane on Highgate Middleway and a bus gate to allow vehicles to easily enter Moseley Road southbound.
Also, I recall they're looking to introduce more enforced bus lanes on Moseley Road through Balsall Heath. But as I've pointed out before here, there are already bus lanes that are not enforced, and that adds to the congestion as buses have to go around the parked cars and vans.
From my own experience of travelling on the 50, the section through Balsall Heath is the worst part for congestion, once you get to Moseley its generally fine.
Quote from: Stu on February 24, 2021, 08:28:48 PM
There are plans to add a new bus lane on Highgate Middleway and a bus gate to allow vehicles to easily enter Moseley Road southbound.
Also, I recall they're looking to introduce more enforced bus lanes on Moseley Road through Balsall Heath. But as I've pointed out before here, there are already bus lanes that are not enforced, and that adds to the congestion as buses have to go around the parked cars and vans.
From my own experience of travelling on the 50, the section through Balsall Heath is the worst part for congestion, once you get to Moseley its generally fine.
I use the 50 most days and you are generally correct about what you've stated. I think the only way to ease the congestion in Balsall Heath/Moseley/Kings Heath is when the new railway stations are built.
Used to use it in the 90s when had a part time job in kings heath. It was bad then can't imagine what it's like now
Quote from: Stu on February 24, 2021, 08:28:48 PM
There are plans to add a new bus lane on Highgate Middleway and a bus gate to allow vehicles to easily enter Moseley Road southbound.
Also, I recall they're looking to introduce more enforced bus lanes on Moseley Road through Balsall Heath. But as I've pointed out before here, there are already bus lanes that are not enforced, and that adds to the congestion as buses have to go around the parked cars and vans.
From my own experience of travelling on the 50, the section through Balsall Heath is the worst part for congestion, once you get to Moseley its generally fine.
need more cameras at bus lanes to catch car drivers that drive in them how would they;like it was other was around a passenger was car driver & car driver was passenger they woukd soon moan
Again, in comparison to the bus route I drive in Bristol (the m1 for those who are aware of it), I think cross city routes are far superior provided proper bus priority measures. My route has its own junction of the motorway for example. Even regular buses running Not In Service are allowed to use this junction! The route doesn't accept cash, only mtickets and Tap and Cap. Boarding and running times are very very fasts. All that along with Dual Door buses and overall the experience is far faster which is something passengers comment on all the time when compared to the nearest 'regular' buses that serve the same destinations.
Having driven the 50 in Birmingham, the City Centre to Moseley will need a bus lane, which is possible as the road currently (mostly) is 2 lanes on each side of the road, although as others have pointed out, is always full of parked cars and the bus lanes are disregarded.
The last time I was in Birmingham I noticed a rather annoying (as a car driver) bus only zone by the Bullring, but all this will benefit of course!
Quote from: Stu on February 24, 2021, 08:28:48 PM
From my own experience of travelling on the 50, the section through Balsall Heath is the worst part for congestion, once you get to Moseley its generally fine.
And that's my 'fear' about cross-city services, when I use the 50 at the weekends, it's more often to go to Kings Heath rather than city and if I have to go to city, I sometimes change to the 35 because it's quiter and ever so slightly quicker (and serves the markets). Especially for passengers on either end of the route (I'm sure it's similar for passengers in Cape Hill or Oldbury), people are going to be put off because too many buses are stuck in the city when they only need to go a few stops down the road.
Quote from: bususer28 on February 25, 2021, 11:04:32 AM
And that's my 'fear' about cross-city services, when I use the 50 at the weekends, it's more often to go to Kings Heath rather than city and if I have to go to city, I sometimes change to the 35 because it's quiter and ever so slightly quicker (and serves the markets). Especially for passengers on either end of the route (I'm sure it's similar for passengers in Cape Hill or Oldbury), people are going to be put off because too many buses are stuck in the city when they only need to go a few stops down the road.
Agreed. Think about how many services will ultimately be curtailed because of traffic delays etc? Defeats the purpose of cross city and minimising the amount of buses people have to catch,.
If they're able to effectively police the bus lanes through Balsall Heath, Moseley and through to Kings Heath, then that part of the route would be viable. For a time I was travelling up from Maypole to Moseley at 6.30am and you could sail through.
It is going to be hard though.
There are online webinars next reference the proposals
A friend of mine sent me this.
Some of the coloured lines do seem to match whatever colour branding that area's buses use (for example, Harborne is red and Selly Oak/University is a lightish blue).
Quote from: mesub on February 26, 2021, 09:50:58 PM
A friend of mine sent me this.
Some of the coloured lines do seem to match whatever colour branding that area's buses use (for example, Harborne is red and Selly Oak/University is a lightish blue).
The blue line that starts at Bartley Green, is that supposed to be the X22? Not sure what the Frankley one is supposed to be though, as the current routes on the University corridor go to Cofton Hackett(X20)/Woodcock Hill(X21)/Woodgate(X22)?
And is the red line saying they're merging the X12 and 23/24? Though when one combines to every 5 minutes and the other is currently every 20 minutes, how would that work?
Quote from: mesub on February 26, 2021, 09:50:58 PM
A friend of mine sent me this.
Some of the coloured lines do seem to match whatever colour branding that area's buses use (for example, Harborne is red and Selly Oak/University is a lightish blue).
Stourbridge- Coventry - that will be like a 2.5 hour trip
I don't think the silver lines are cross city routes? Wolverhampton is on there and surely they're not going to do a cross city route from there? People from that far out just use the train...
Quote from: 2206 on February 26, 2021, 09:55:18 PM
And is the red line saying they're merging the X12 and 23/24? Though when one combines to every 5 minutes and the other is currently every 20 minutes, how would that work?
94 and 23/24.
Quote from: mesub on February 26, 2021, 09:50:58 PM
A friend of mine sent me this.
Some of the coloured lines do seem to match whatever colour branding that area's buses use (for example, Harborne is red and Selly Oak/University is a lightish blue).
Are these cross-city routes replacing existing routes?
Would it not make sense to make the cross city route every 10-12 minutes and then also keep the original route every 10-12 minutes as well as that each part of the route maintains a 5-6 minute frequency. That way if there was a delay on either side of the cross city route, the other side wouldn't be badly affected as it would still have a bus running the shorter route?
Quote from: ellspurs on February 27, 2021, 08:14:20 AM
94 and 23/24.
55/94 don't go to Bromford, and Bromford is on the map. Its definitely the X12 which is shown.
Quote from: 2206 on February 27, 2021, 10:05:57 AM
55/94 don't go to Bromford, and Bromford is on the map.
I knew you were going to say that. The X12 only goes to Castle Bromwich village, not the main part of Castle Bromwich. The 94 would fit in with your concerns about having the routes frequency match up closer, and with the previous Washwood Heath google incident you know that people don't seem to know where the different bits of east Birmingham actually are.
And if you look at the routes covered, the areas are mainly the non-express routes covered.
Package one - no specific route
Package two - 65/16 and 35/47(or 45?)
Package three - 50 and 82/87
Package four - 907/67/x14 and 61/63/x20/x21/x22 [this one seems to be a mashup of existing routes]
Package five - 23/24 and 94
Package six - 74 and 97
The colours may have had something to do with how they've planned this out, but remember the x12 isn't branded any more.
I'd have thought that these cross-city routes would be kept separate to the express/limited stop routes.
Quote from: ellspurs on February 27, 2021, 10:21:08 AM
I knew you were going to say that. The X12 only goes to Castle Bromwich village, not the main part of Castle Bromwich. The 94 would fit in with your concerns about having the routes frequency match up closer, and with the previous Washwood Heath google incident you know that people don't seem to know where the different bits of east Birmingham actually are.
And if you look at the routes covered, the areas are mainly the non-express routes covered.
Package one - no specific route
Package two - 65/16 and 35/47(or 45?)
Package three - 50 and 82/87
Package four - 907/67/x14 and 61/63/x20/x21/x22 [this one seems to be a mashup of existing routes]
Package five - 23/24 and 94
Package six - 74 and 97
The colours may have had something to do with how they've planned this out, but remember the x12 isn't branded any more.
I'd have thought that these cross-city routes would be kept separate to the express/limited stop routes.
Unless they want to up the X12 frequency I suppose?
Won't the X14 one they're showing be express to Kingsbury Road?
Quote from: 2206 on February 27, 2021, 10:32:35 AM
Unless they want to up the X12 frequency I suppose?
Won't the X14 one they're showing be express to Kingsbury Road?
Well the other parts of the x14 before Kingsbury Road are covered by other routes within the proposal (65/67) so it could come off the Expressway and just pick up from all stops once it gets there.
The principle behind some of these proposals seem sensible - linking major hospitals, places of work etc but some of the ones on that map seem downright strange, for example Harborne to Castle Bromwich and Hawkesley etc to Perry Common. Other than linking the Broad St / Westside commercial area with the east of the city I can't see why there would be great demand for linking the 23/24 and Chelmsley corridors. Difficult to see how further bus priority measures could be implemented on the Harborne side and whilst reliability improved after the recent upgrades, those routes will still suffer heavy congestion once life returns to normal.
Quote from: 2206 on February 26, 2021, 09:55:18 PM
The blue line that starts at Bartley Green, is that supposed to be the X22?
I would think so. The X22 does serve a bit of Bartley Green before it ends at the woodgate terminus.
Quote from: MasterPlan on February 27, 2021, 09:07:00 AM
Are these cross-city routes replacing existing routes?
That's what I was thinking, but j789's idea does seem to make sense.
It would be interesting to see what route numbers would be used, I wonder if using a 'C' prefix might used with the C meaning City e.g
C1 Walsall - Airport/NEC (new sprint route)
C2 Walsall - Solihull (new sprint route)
C86 Bearwood - Druids Heath
C87 Dudley - Druids Heath
Just a thought !
I would've thought it'd make sense for the 45/47 and 16 as they are at a 6 min frequency and the route would be unaltered. The Uni routes is interesting and I can see the linking with Perry Barr looks like the X20/21/22 with the 907/X14 and a new express route to castle vale. The 7/65 and 35 is an interesting one, would've thought the 7&35 makes most sense with the 65&67 linking with the 61&63 making sense.
Quote from: Steve3229vp on February 27, 2021, 11:40:16 AM
It would be interesting to see what route numbers would be used, I wonder if using a 'C' prefix might used with the C meaning City e.g
C1 Walsall - Airport/NEC (new sprint route)
C2 Walsall - Solihull (new sprint route)
C86 Bearwood - Druids Heath
C87 Dudley - Druids Heath
Just a thought !
It could be suffixed as well.
Quote from: mesub on February 27, 2021, 12:35:20 PM
It could be suffixed as well.
No, suffixes are generally used for alternative to normal route eg 4 Solihull, 4A Gospel Lane or E for short working
Quote from: Mike K on February 27, 2021, 11:17:23 AM
The principle behind some of these proposals seem sensible - linking major hospitals, places of work etc but some of the ones on that map seem downright strange, for example Harborne to Castle Bromwich and Hawkesley etc to Perry Common. Other than linking the Broad St / Westside commercial area with the east of the city I can't see why there would be great demand for linking the 23/24 and Chelmsley corridors. Difficult to see how further bus priority measures could be implemented on the Harborne side and whilst reliability improved after the recent upgrades, those routes will still suffer heavy congestion once life returns to normal.
I completely agree and I'm starting to get confused as to what they're trying to achieve out of these. If you take something like the 45/47 and 16, you're effectively merging a route that was already within easy connecting distance, you only need to walk 50m at the markets to change. But if you take something like the 35/7 (to me it looks like the 7 not the 65), you're creating 'new' connections i.e. linking the markets with Snow Hill and vice versa, which makes more sense to me than merging routes which are easily accesible from each other anyway having said that, not sure who from Moseley or Kings Heath would need Aston or Perry Common, maybe a merger with the 33 would make more sense to link the One Stop centre.
Quote from: bususer28 on February 27, 2021, 02:06:53 PM
I completely agree and I'm starting to get confused as to what they're trying to achieve out of these. If you take something like the 45/47 and 16, you're effectively merging a route that was already within easy connecting distance, you only need to walk 50m at the markets to change. But if you take something like the 35/7 (to me it looks like the 7 not the 65), you're creating 'new' connections i.e. linking the markets with Snow Hill and vice versa, which makes more sense to me than merging routes which are easily accesible from each other anyway having said that, not sure who from Moseley or Kings Heath would need Aston or Perry Common, maybe a merger with the 33 would make more sense to link the One Stop centre.
Or perhaps it's they have looked at data from the ticket machine where smart passes and contactless show passengers journies and matched where most people make connections, not just asked people to guess what would be good routes to join up.
Quote from: j789 on February 27, 2021, 09:50:18 AM
Would it not make sense to make the cross city route every 10-12 minutes and then also keep the original route every 10-12 minutes as well as that each part of the route maintains a 5-6 minute frequency. That way if there was a delay on either side of the cross city route, the other side wouldn't be badly affected as it would still have a bus running the shorter route?
You'd hope so, wouldn't you? Can't imagine people will be pleased their bus in Harborne isn't turning up because it's stuck in Castle Bromwich for example...
Quote from: Tony on February 27, 2021, 02:14:37 PM
Or perhaps it's they have looked at data from the ticket machine where smart passes and contactless show passengers journies and matched where most people make connections, not just asked people to guess what would be good routes to join up.
Will the hagley road services link with the X1 and X2 then as per diagram?
Quote from: Trident 4194 on February 27, 2021, 02:27:20 PM
Will the hagley road services link with the X1 and X2 then as per diagram?
Its shown in white, like the YW 6, so don't think so. I think X1/X2 will link with 51/X51 as the sprint service.
Quote from: MasterPlan on February 27, 2021, 02:19:44 PM
You'd hope so, wouldn't you? Can't imagine people will be pleased their bus in Harborne isn't turning up because it's stuck in Castle Bromwich for example...
That is the way they have been done. And it can help. Sometimes buses can all get stuck on one route for a time, but on a cross city route they can keep comeing beacuse they are the other end of the route so running on time
Quote from: Trident 4194 on February 27, 2021, 02:27:20 PM
Will the hagley road services link with the X1 and X2 then as per diagram?
That diagram I believe shows an overall view of the 'key' network routes, but only the coloured ones are proposed to be combined.
Quote from: Mike K on February 27, 2021, 11:17:23 AM
The principle behind some of these proposals seem sensible - linking major hospitals, places of work etc but some of the ones on that map seem downright strange, for example Harborne to Castle Bromwich and Hawkesley etc to Perry Common. Other than linking the Broad St / Westside commercial area with the east of the city I can't see why there would be great demand for linking the 23/24 and Chelmsley corridors. Difficult to see how further bus priority measures could be implemented on the Harborne side and whilst reliability improved after the recent upgrades, those routes will still suffer heavy congestion once life returns to normal.
Quote from: bususer28 on February 27, 2021, 02:06:53 PM
I completely agree and I'm starting to get confused as to what they're trying to achieve out of these. If you take something like the 45/47 and 16, you're effectively merging a route that was already within easy connecting distance, you only need to walk 50m at the markets to change. But if you take something like the 35/7 (to me it looks like the 7 not the 65), you're creating 'new' connections i.e. linking the markets with Snow Hill and vice versa, which makes more sense to me than merging routes which are easily accesible from each other anyway having said that, not sure who from Moseley or Kings Heath would need Aston or Perry Common, maybe a merger with the 33 would make more sense to link the One Stop centre.
It's not always about providing an 'end-to-end' link, but serving the 'bits in between'.
I doubt there would be many people who would travel all the way from Dudley to Druids Heath (apart from bus enthusiasts of course!), but then again there may be people in Moseley or Kings Heath who have appointments at City Hospital to attend who would benefit from this.
Equally there may not be many people in Sutton Coldfield interested in travelling to Frankley or Longbridge, but Birmingham University students living in Castle Vale or Perry Barr would benefit from this.
As Tony has stated above, passenger data is being taken into consideration to 'learn' more about which services passengers are changing onto to/from the city centre, because there may be some factors that we wouldn't otherwise assume, people travelling to places of work for example.
The shopping argument is flawed though, I doubt many shoppers from Kings Heath would bus it all the way to Perry Barr, not while many of the same shops are available either locally or somewhere closer like Selly Oak.
Quote from: Stu on February 27, 2021, 06:22:56 PM
It's not always about providing an 'end-to-end' link, but serving the 'bits in between'.
I doubt there would be many people who would travel all the way from Dudley to Druids Heath (apart from bus enthusiasts of course!), but then again there may be people in Moseley or Kings Heath who have appointments at City Hospital to attend who would benefit from this.
Absolutely!
It's the same with the area's cross-city rail services. Stourbridge Junction to Dorridge or Whitlocks End seems to be more a marriage of convenience than of meeting demand, but there is a bit of cross-city usage.
As an enthusiast I am really looking forward to this scheme, and I am pleased that Local Authorities are putting their money where their mouths are on serious bus priorities. Will it work? Will there be much cross-city usage? It's easy to be sceptical but I see NXWM's willingness as a vote of confidence in the scheme. I look forward to seeing how it works out in practice.
Sounds to me as someone's pet scheme which will be implemented come what may - look at the farce with connecting the Coventry corridor rail services across Birmingham, which thirty seconds' perusal of timekeeping statistics would have shown wasn't going to work.
Quote from: Trident 4194 on February 26, 2021, 10:36:25 PM
Stourbridge- Coventry - that will be like a 2.5 hour trip
The 900 used to run Hasbury to Coventry as a Timesaver from deregulation in 1986, before being split at B'ham to form 900 B'ham to Coventry & 19 Hasbury to B'ham.
Hasbury to Coventry only took circa 90 mins, did it end to end a number of times
Quote from: Winston on February 27, 2021, 10:07:06 PM
The 900 used to run Hasbury to Coventry as a Timesaver from deregulation in 1986, before being split at B'ham to form 900 B'ham to Coventry & 19 Hasbury to B'ham.
Hasbury to Coventry only took circa 90 mins, did it end to end a number of times
Don't forget that the 900 started in 1985 in the WMPTE era running from Halesowen to Coventry
Strange how other places such as Small heath have platinum routes there and Acocks Green doesn't.
Quote from: bbs on February 27, 2021, 11:01:26 PM
Strange how other places such as Small heath have platinum routes there and Acocks Green doesn't.
No its not strange at all, not every single corridor can have platinum buses.
Main routes to Acocks Green I think are the 11 which has the crimson 61XX MMC.
And the 4/4A which has 22XX E200 MMC, plus there probably aren't really many suitable routes where the E200 MMC single deckers could be displaced to as well if that got platinum buses.
Quote from: Steve3229vp on February 27, 2021, 10:10:42 PM
Don't forget that the 900 started in 1985 in the WMPTE era running from Halesowen to Coventry
I didn't, but it didn't run through to Hasbury until Oct 1986.
Quote from: bbs on February 27, 2021, 11:01:26 PM
Strange how other places such as Small heath have platinum routes there and Acocks Green doesn't.
Small Heath doesn't have any platinum routes either
Quote from: Tony on February 28, 2021, 08:49:54 AM
Small Heath doesn't have any platinum routes either
I was about to make the same comment
Quote from: bbs on February 27, 2021, 11:01:26 PM
Strange how other places such as Small heath have platinum routes there and Acocks Green doesn't.
I don't know of any Platinum routes in Small Heath
Quote from: Winston on February 27, 2021, 10:07:06 PM
The 900 used to run Hasbury to Coventry as a Timesaver from deregulation in 1986, before being split at B'ham to form 900 B'ham to Coventry & 19 Hasbury to B'ham.
Hasbury to Coventry only took circa 90 mins, did it end to end a number of times
How did it do that in 90 mins?
Quote from: Stu on February 27, 2021, 06:22:56 PM
It's not always about providing an 'end-to-end' link, but serving the 'bits in between'.
I doubt there would be many people who would travel all the way from Dudley to Druids Heath (apart from bus enthusiasts of course!), but then again there may be people in Moseley or Kings Heath who have appointments at City Hospital to attend who would benefit from this.
Equally there may not be many people in Sutton Coldfield interested in travelling to Frankley or Longbridge, but Birmingham University students living in Castle Vale or Perry Barr would benefit from this.
As Tony has stated above, passenger data is being taken into consideration to 'learn' more about which services passengers are changing onto to/from the city centre, because there may be some factors that we wouldn't otherwise assume, people travelling to places of work for example.
The shopping argument is flawed though, I doubt many shoppers from Kings Heath would bus it all the way to Perry Barr, not while many of the same shops are available either locally or somewhere closer like Selly Oak.
Not disagreeing with any of that, I said that the principle seems sensible and I appreciate that there will be limited demand for travel from Quinton Road West to Chelmsley Wood. Linking major educational facilities, hospitals etc makes sense. Just a few on there that seemed strange to me, but who am I to question empirical data?
Quote from: Mike K on February 28, 2021, 10:17:13 AM
Not disagreeing with any of that, I said that the principle seems sensible and I appreciate that there will be limited demand for travel from Quinton Road West to Chelmsley Wood. Linking major educational facilities, hospitals etc makes sense. Just a few on there that seemed strange to me, but who am I to question empirical data?
Funnily enough, for a time when I was younger, I used to go from effectively Chelmsley Wood (Smith's Wood) to Four Dwellings School, in Quinton every week.
That was way back when it was the 103 that was doing the journey down there.
Quote from: bbs on February 27, 2021, 11:01:26 PM
Strange how other places such as Small heath have platinum routes there and Acocks Green doesn't.
Quote from: 2206 on February 27, 2021, 11:07:55 PM
No its not strange at all, not every single corridor can have platinum buses.
Main routes to Acocks Green I think are the 11 which has the crimson 61XX MMC.
And the 4/4A which has 22XX E200 MMC, plus there probably aren't really many suitable routes where the E200 MMC single deckers could be displaced to as well if that got platinum buses.
Please keep this on-topic, folks.
Quote from: Trident 4194 on February 28, 2021, 10:14:26 AM
How did it do that in 90 mins?
I don't think the Birmingham to Airport section stopped at so many stops, for example and generally running times on most route were less than they are now.
Does anyone remember the 951 when it first started wasnt it Bearwood to Bloxwich or Cannock?
Quote from: cris 99 on March 07, 2021, 05:50:06 PM
Does anyone remember the 951 when it first started wasnt it Bearwood to Bloxwich or Cannock?
Started at deregulation (26-10-86) Bearwood-Birmingham-Walsall-Bloxwich, then in 1987 the 951 was extended to Cannock via Great Wyrley with 952 via Cheslyn Hay, the Bearwood section was withdrawn except some peak journeys that ran to/from Five Ways and these eventually faded away
Quote from: cris 99 on March 07, 2021, 05:50:06 PM
Does anyone remember the 951 when it first started wasnt it Bearwood to Bloxwich or Cannock?
Yes, remember riding from Bearwood to Bloxwich several times with grandparents.
So this cross city service I see the council are plugging is that likely to happen this year and will they change the numbers of the routes does anyone know or just make people aware it's cross city and change from a 87 to a 50 once in town ?
Quote from: monkeyjoe on May 26, 2021, 12:59:00 PM
So this cross city service I see the council are plugging is that likely to happen this year and will they change the numbers of the routes does anyone know or just make people aware it's cross city and change from a 87 to a 50 once in town ?
Same route number for both sections would make sense and be simpler I would have thought. Wouldn't really make sense having the number change from 87 to 50 in town as that's interworking and not really cross - city, so doesn't advertise the fact you can travel through aswell.
Quote from: monkeyjoe on May 26, 2021, 12:59:00 PM
So this cross city service I see the council are plugging is that likely to happen this year and will they change the numbers of the routes does anyone know or just make people aware it's cross city and change from a 87 to a 50 once in town ?
Split and merged into existing cross-city services topic.
This was supposed to happen this year, but with works ongoing to implement necessary improvements to make this work effectively, I can't see this happening until next year now, though I'm happy to be corrected.
Regarding the route numbering, as nothing appears to have been finalised yet, its all very much still in the 'speculation' phase.
Logic would dictate that to avoid confusion, some all new route numbers would work best. What they would be is anyone's guess right now.
Perhaps as a suggestion, "C1" for Dudley to Maypole/Druids Heath, and "C2" for Bearwood to Maypole/Druids Heath?
The other alternatives would be to reuse existing route numbers:
- drop the 50, and run all journeys as 82 and 87 through to Druids Heath/Maypole
- or drop the 82 and 87, and run journeys to Dudley as the 50, and journeys to Bearwood as the 50A
Quote from: Stu on May 26, 2021, 07:01:11 PM
Perhaps as a suggestion, "C1" for Dudley to Maypole/Druids Heath, and "C2" for Bearwood to Maypole/Druids Heath?
The other alternatives would be to reuse existing route numbers:
- drop the 50, and run all journeys as 82 and 87 through to Druids Heath/Maypole
- or drop the 82 and 87, and run journeys to Dudley as the 50, and journeys to Bearwood as the 50A
Other idea possibly 87/88 or C87 & C88.
Which would fit in with the 89 on the Dudley Road, still as well.
The council have been running webinars of public transport post clean air zone, nxwm were due to speak but due to technical problems running tmw
Let's hope it continues to get shelved and never happens.
On the webinar they were pretty confident it is
https://www.tfwm.org.uk/development/cross-city-bus/
Wasn't aware there was a whole city plan ?
Quote from: monkeyjoe on May 27, 2021, 05:15:16 AM
https://www.tfwm.org.uk/development/cross-city-bus/
Wasn't aware there was a whole city plan ?
Have a look back through this thread, from page 7 onwards, we've already covered this.
Good to see that TfWM can spell:
Package 2: Perry Common/Hamstead – Hawksley/Longbridge (North-South)
Hawkesley rather than Hawksley but at least the map has the correct spelling:-)
Quote from: Ian Hardy on May 30, 2021, 08:29:25 AM
Good to see that TfWM can spell:
Package 2: Perry Common/Hamstead – Hawksley/Longbridge (North-South)
Hawkesley rather than Hawksley but at least the map has the correct spelling:-)
and yet Perry Common is missing an 'm'.. 😂
Wonder if the bus stops over the rd from square peg in corporation st are for one of the new cross city services or something else
Same story repeated again, but with new dates now:
Birmingham Bus lane works along No 50 route on Alcester Road to begin in £30m cross city projecthttps://www.birminghamworld.uk/news/bus-lane-works-along-no-50-route-on-alcester-road-to-begin-in-ps30m-cross-city-project-4034601
QuoteWork on the road, between Highgate Middleway and Park Road is due to begin on 27 February, 2023 and expected to be completed by the end of June. It is being led by Transport for West Midlands (TfWM) in partnership with Birmingham City Council.
This will see full closure of Moseley Road between Highgate Road and Haden Way from the beginning of March until the end of April. A fully signed diversion route will be in place. Access to businesses will be maintained.
This part of the scheme affecting the 50, 82 and 87 bus routes in Birmingham will be followed by works in Birmingham city centre, running from June, to provide bus priority measures in Margaret Street, Newhall Street, Summer Hill and Snow Hill Queensway.
These are due to be completed by October. Public consultation on the plans took place during 2019.
Again, these journos just copy-paste from press releases, and repeat the same factual error - the 82 and 87 DON'T use Moseley Road and don't serve Balsall Heath (yet).