NX 2013 Bus Orders

[Tony]

And the new Wright / Volvo 'Streets Ahead' double decker.

Is that the nutty fruitcake Boris Johnson bus - allegedly TfL t place an order for 600 soon. Someone should do an FOI request to see how much public money has been expended on that (beyond the cost of buying normal buses) - looks like an updated 1963 Park Royal Fleetline body to me!!

The initial order for 8 was expensive because it included all the development and design costs. The production run should only cost about the same as other hybrid buses. After being able to have a close look at LT3 at the NEC this week I was well impressed with the general layout

The look is not bad (although they look extremely long), I would agree, but the big issue for me is what on earth was the point? I know there was a political imperative re open platform rear entrance buses, but at a time of austerity the idea that a publicly funded organisation should expend money on something as extravagent is extraordinary - nearly as bad as the Routemaster itself in the 50s.

One appears in the new James Bond film (as the equivalent of a film extra - parked in Whitehall)!!!

By buying the buses themselves and giving them to the winning bidder for the routes at a minimum rental will bring the costs of the tenders for the routes considerably as the operators will not have to include the price of the vehicles in the bid. Most operators put a high proportion of the cost of the vehicles into a 7 year tender bid because of the low resale price of ex London buses on the open market.
By guaranteeing a 15 year life for the NBFL, and getting economies of scale in the price by ordering 600 in one go it wouldn't surprise me if NBFL doesn't actually save money for TfL against standard bids using hybrid buses.

[richie]

I would say the 50 is a very good contender for new buses with added extras get the other operators off there

[winston]

If new buses are delivered for the Sutton Lines then may be some geminis will go to WB but some of the toothpaste enviro 400 could go to Pensnett to upgrade some service to double decker operation, as people keep mentioning on here that the 246 needs double deckers.

The 246 would certainly benefit from double deckers as would the X96 (or a frequency increase at least retaining the current single deckers)

[winston]

I would say the 50 is a very good contender for new buses with added extras get the other operators off there

I'm thinking Hybrids would be ideal for the 50, NX could bid from the latest Greenbus fund 4 just announced. A few on the forum have suggested the outer circle for hybirds, but I think NX would be extremely lucky to receive funding for circa 45 hybrids in one hit

[BU07 LGO]

I'm sure somebody said the Omnicity deckers had been disocntinued now? despite rumours of more being ordered for the sutton lines?

[winston]

I'm sure somebody said the Omnicity deckers had been disocntinued now? despite rumours of more being ordered for the sutton lines?

The Scania website says that the Omnicity is still available in both double decker and articulated versions

[don]

And the new Wright / Volvo 'Streets Ahead' double decker.

Is that the nutty fruitcake Boris Johnson bus - allegedly TfL t place an order for 600 soon. Someone should do an FOI request to see how much public money has been expended on that (beyond the cost of buying normal buses) - looks like an updated 1963 Park Royal Fleetline body to me!!

The initial order for 8 was expensive because it included all the development and design costs. The production run should only cost about the same as other hybrid buses. After being able to have a close look at LT3 at the NEC this week I was well impressed with the general layout

The look is not bad (although they look extremely long), I would agree, but the big issue for me is what on earth was the point? I know there was a political imperative re open platform rear entrance buses, but at a time of austerity the idea that a publicly funded organisation should expend money on something as extravagent is extraordinary - nearly as bad as the Routemaster itself in the 50s.

One appears in the new James Bond film (as the equivalent of a film extra - parked in Whitehall)!!!

By buying the buses themselves and giving them to the winning bidder for the routes at a minimum rental will bring the costs of the tenders for the routes considerably as the operators will not have to include the price of the vehicles in the bid. Most operators put a high proportion of the cost of the vehicles into a 7 year tender bid because of the low resale price of ex London buses on the open market.
By guaranteeing a 15 year life for the NBFL, and getting economies of scale in the price by ordering 600 in one go it wouldn't surprise me if NBFL doesn't actually save money for TfL against standard bids using hybrid buses.

It's an interesting concept. I'm not sure how the economics stack up - TfL will have had to fund the purchase of the buses (thus indirectly adding a cost to the overall buses operation, if not an individual route or group of routes); I suspect the low resale value of normal London buses is caused by the volume involved and the quirkiness of TfL's specs and the need to build in 'standardisation' costs (removing the centre door etc etc) in order to sell them; someone will also have to fund the maintenance for overhauls/refurbs and depreciation costs of the LT - and there's no guarantee these vehicles will be reliable or even cost effective against normal vehicles in long term service - it all seems a bit strange for a publicly funded authority to be doing this. And to operate with the rear door in use requires a conductor/guard (thus increasing operating costs). It sounds like a massive gamble to me, and one wonders whether the arrangements in place are the only way it is possible to deliver what the mayor has promised.

The biggest worry is that back in the late 90s, a cursory glance at a GIS map of London plotting bus passenger injuries simply highlighted all the Routemaster routes - yes they were that dangerous in comparison (well everyone knew that, which is why the rest of the world moved away from open platforms decades before).

Some might say the whole thing is barking mad.

For bus enthusiasts it's great to have a new vehicle type to see - albeit in this case it looks a bit like an updated 60s bus body in concept (with those horrible deep upper panels and shallow upstairs windows - I read that this was a logic which Heatherwick pursued on the basis no-one will be standing upstairs??!!!), with an updated Metroplitan concept windscreen and an NS inspired rear end! I was trying to picture one in NXWM livery - I can't imagine it in anything but red at the moment.

I really would like to see NXWM have some Citaros.

[MW]

Maybe some new B8RLE's in future orders?

The new chassis will be a 5 litre B5RLE, as confirmed by Volvo. Seems small, but what with the Volvo B5TL replacing the B9TL, a 5 litre engine has been developed to beat the Euro 6 emissions.

So all in all, the new chassis line ups are as follows:

Volvo B9TL (2 axle) replaced by Volvo B5TL.

Volvo B7RLE replaced by Volvo B5RLE.

Volvo B9TL (3 axle) replaced by Volvo B8TL.

The article regarding the new engines can be found here:

http://www.volvobuses.com/bus/global/en-gb/newsmedia/pressreleases/_layouts/CWP.Internet.VolvoCom/NewsItem.aspx?News.ItemId=130573&News.Language=en-gb

[MW]

but I think NX would be extremely lucky to receive funding for circa 45 hybrids in one hit

Yeah that's true but think of the publicity NX would get.  The longest running urban bus route, and one of the most fuel efficient?

I would imagine if it was to occur, it'd feature investment by Centro as well.

The 50 is an excellent candidate for Hybrids. I've suggested it in the past due to it's stop start traffic along the whole route.

[Tony]

"It's an interesting concept. I'm not sure how the economics stack up - TfL will have had to fund the purchase of the buses (thus indirectly adding a cost to the overall buses operation, if not an individual route or group of routes); I suspect the low resale value of normal London buses is caused by the volume involved and the quirkiness of TfL's specs and the need to build in 'standardisation' costs (removing the centre door etc etc) in order to sell them; someone will also have to fund the maintenance for overhauls/refurbs and depreciation costs of the LT - and there's no guarantee these vehicles will be reliable or even cost effective against normal vehicles in long term service - it all seems a bit strange for a publicly funded authority to be doing this"

TfL already funds all these, it is just at the moment they are included in the bid prices operators submit.

The London system is basically TfL pays all the costs of a route and takes all the revenue with the operator taking a risk that it has got its prices correct and taking a small profit for themselves. I see no difference whether TfL funds the costs of the vehicles up front or through bid prices

[don]

TfL already funds all these, it is just at the moment they are included in the bid prices operators submit.

The London system is basically TfL pays all the costs of a route and takes all the revenue with the operator taking a risk that it has got its prices correct and taking a small profit for themselves. I see no difference whether TfL funds the costs of the vehicles up front or through bid prices

Yes I agree - however in this instance the public authority is taking all of the risk with vehicle costs, by specifying its own vehicle, which has been developed to meet a political, not a commercial imperative. I know what I'd think if I paid my council tax in London! I think it's a big risk. The bus does look distinctive and very smart, but then so does an Eclipse Gemini, Enviro 400 etc etc and barring the lack of an open rear door, I'm not too sure why these vehicles don't meet the implied needs of TfL.

[Tony]

TfL already funds all these, it is just at the moment they are included in the bid prices operators submit.

The London system is basically TfL pays all the costs of a route and takes all the revenue with the operator taking a risk that it has got its prices correct and taking a small profit for themselves. I see no difference whether TfL funds the costs of the vehicles up front or through bid prices

Yes I agree - however in this instance the public authority is taking all of the risk with vehicle costs, by specifying its own vehicle, which has been developed to meet a political, not a commercial imperative. I know what I'd think if I paid my council tax in London! I think it's a big risk. The bus does look distinctive and very smart, but then so does an Eclipse Gemini, Enviro 400 etc etc and barring the lack of an open rear door, I'm not too sure why these vehicles don't meet the implied needs of TfL.

The other useful thing it will do is stop lots of other places around the country getting dumped with knackered non-standard London Cast-offs. We are lucky around here with only a few independant second hand purchases, but have a look at Glasgow's current fleet.

When operators like First get stuck with 7 year old buses and no London route to run them on they send buses with only 19 seats downstairs to work in inappropriate places! Hopefully the NBFL will live the full 15 year life TfL say it will, then get sold off around the world as tourist attractions like RTs and RMs were

[winston]

but I think NX would be extremely lucky to receive funding for circa 45 hybrids in one hit

Yeah that's true but think of the publicity NX would get.  The longest running urban bus route, and one of the most fuel efficient?

I would imagine if it was to occur, it'd feature investment by Centro as well.

The 50 is an excellent candidate for Hybrids. I've suggested it in the past due to it's stop start traffic along the whole route.

I agree entirely about what you're saying re: the outer circle, but I just can't see Birmingham being awarded that amount of money to subsidise the purchase of a sufficient quantity of hybrids to fully convert the route from one round of funding. Stagecoach Manchester got funding for 40 for the 192, but Birmingham seems to take second place to Manchester all the time. I guess it will also depend on what NX bid for as well.....

[winston]

No, the streets ahead bus isnt the new LT class bus. The tfl order has been confirmed btw. And you may find that nxwm will want to order lots of buses in 2013 or at least for them to be built in 2013 as in 2014 the new euro6 emissions come into place and these buses will cost quite a bit more money.

Peter123,

That's a good call,

Euro 6 emissions will apply for anything new ordered after 31st Dec 2013, so as you say either NX may opt to order & take delivery of more than normal Euro 5 vehicles during the course of 2013, or they may choose to place orders early for 2014 at Euro 5 spec to beat the introduction of Euro 6 & higher anticipated purchase costs, even more so if NXWM's current standard single decker i.e. B7RLE is being replaced by a new model.

The quantity of further new vehicle intakes may also be dictated by how much passenger growth NXWM have experienced following the introduction of new vehicles on to routes......

[PM]

No, the streets ahead bus isnt the new LT class bus. The tfl order has been confirmed btw. And you may find that nxwm will want to order lots of buses in 2013 or at least for them to be built in 2013 as in 2014 the new euro6 emissions come into place and these buses will cost quite a bit more money.

Peter123,

That's a good call,

Euro 6 emissions will apply for anything new ordered after 31st Dec 2013, so as you say either NX may opt to order & take delivery of more than normal Euro 5 vehicles during the course of 2013, or they may choose to place orders early for 2014 at Euro 5 spec to beat the introduction of Euro 6 & higher anticipated purchase costs, even more so if NXWM's current standard single decker i.e. B7RLE is being replaced by a new model.

The quantity of further new vehicle intakes may also be dictated by how much passenger growth NXWM have experienced following the introduction of new vehicles on to routes......

I agree. NXWM may choose to save money and stock up on euro 5 buses like Nottingham have been doing recently.Eventually, though, they will have to face up to the numbers of deckers needing to be replaced.