Sucess of Arriva in the West Midlands?

[andy]

I think we all agree that arriva are really not that great to put it politely and that there is not a chance in hell that they will beat NXWM in the West Midlands. It is easy to forget how big NXWM are but I think dannygill is totally wrong with all his points: arriva are crap, nxwm are good and really profitable.

Here we go again!!

Why can people not inject a bit of balance into the discussion instead of this ridiculous 'my dad's better than your dad' playground stuff?

I have worked for both companies, and what I would say is that in this region they both have work to do, but let us look at some facts.  I really have no interest in how much of an empire each has built up in Europe or America as I am interested in the provision of service in the Midlands. But on that note I would ask that if the NX Group is as thoroughly outstanding at running a business as so many claim, why did it have to dispose of so many well run and seemingly profitable operations in the first place? Their decline as a group over that period of however many years that was has in my opinion cost the west midlands area a lot of progress as NX were just muddling through for quite some time without any money or interest in what they were doing.

Back to now.

NX are now making headway with their vehicle replacement programme, but nowhere near quickly enough. It is not an impressive state of affairs when they have to throw a load of 13 year old buses that have been round the block onto one of their flagship services, just to meet legislative requirements that have been coming for years in terms of the city centre. They are not up to the job and portray a poor image, and if planning and investment had been as it should they wouldn't be there. On top of this a large percentage of the fleet is still in a mish mash of liveries and exceptionally poorly presented. The current refurbishment programme is excellent but how long will it realistically take to get through everything that's outstanding? They should be contracting out and utilising reserve fleet in order to get more vehicles turned round much more quickly as they can't do all of them in house.

Arriva also neglected vehicle replacement for some time, preferring to draft mid life vehicles in from elsewhere which is fine at the time but eventually you end up with everything expiring at the same time. They didn't really begin to address this until 08 and since then have steadily renewed but at the same time expanded, resulting in a net loss in terms of renewal. And they definitely have their work cut out now in updating the fleets at Cannock, Stafford and Midland but I think we will see them do it as they have done extensively elsewhere in the UK recently. You can't deny that Arriva have upped their game in the UK over the last couple of years.

In terms of facilities both companies have invested heavily in their depots and infrastructure.

The biggest difference in my opinion between the two companies is that NX still behaves too much like a municipal or PTE, far too rigid and old fashioned approach to many things such as network, branding, fare structure, commercial offer and lack of real ground breaking innovation, relying too heavily on the local authority and NWM to set the agenda. I don't think you can level that at Arriva in quite the same way as they have to be at the top of their game to survive in the areas they operate in where buses aren't so well used and have innovated well in terms of the commercial offer and methods to sell to and engage customers. But they have made mistakes.

The biggest bug bear of mine with NX is that they have been far too complacent over the years; the Faresaver and a virtual network monopoly has been their guardian but things won't just go on as they have for the last 20 years, they are going to have to get smarter. And whatever your opinion of Arriva, if things gets shaken up then it can only be good for the area's bus offering in general.

[PM]

I think we all agree that arriva are really not that great to put it politely and that there is not a chance in hell that they will beat NXWM in the West Midlands. It is easy to forget how big NXWM are but I think dannygill is totally wrong with all his points: arriva are crap, nxwm are good and really profitable.

Here we go again!!

Why can people not inject a bit of balance into the discussion instead of this ridiculous 'my dad's better than your dad' playground stuff?

I have worked for both companies, and what I would say is that in this region they both have work to do, but let us look at some facts.  I really have no interest in how much of an empire each has built up in Europe or America as I am interested in the provision of service in the Midlands. But on that note I would ask that if the NX Group is as thoroughly outstanding at running a business as so many claim, why did it have to dispose of so many well run and seemingly profitable operations in the first place? Their decline as a group over that period of however many years that was has in my opinion cost the west midlands area a lot of progress as NX were just muddling through for quite some time without any money or interest in what they were doing.

Back to now.

NX are now making headway with their vehicle replacement programme, but nowhere near quickly enough. It is not an impressive state of affairs when they have to throw a load of 13 year old buses that have been round the block onto one of their flagship services, just to meet legislative requirements that have been coming for years in terms of the city centre. They are not up to the job and portray a poor image, and if planning and investment had been as it should they wouldn't be there. On top of this a large percentage of the fleet is still in a mish mash of liveries and exceptionally poorly presented. The current refurbishment programme is excellent but how long will it realistically take to get through everything that's outstanding? They should be contracting out and utilising reserve fleet in order to get more vehicles turned round much more quickly as they can't do all of them in house.

Arriva also neglected vehicle replacement for some time, preferring to draft mid life vehicles in from elsewhere which is fine at the time but eventually you end up with everything expiring at the same time. They didn't really begin to address this until 08 and since then have steadily renewed but at the same time expanded, resulting in a net loss in terms of renewal. And they definitely have their work cut out now in updating the fleets at Cannock, Stafford and Midland but I think we will see them do it as they have done extensively elsewhere in the UK recently. You can't deny that Arriva have upped their game in the UK over the last couple of years.

In terms of facilities both companies have invested heavily in their depots and infrastructure.

The biggest difference in my opinion between the two companies is that NX still behaves too much like a municipal or PTE, far too rigid and old fashioned approach to many things such as network, branding, fare structure, commercial offer and lack of real ground breaking innovation, relying too heavily on the local authority and NWM to set the agenda. I don't think you can level that at Arriva in quite the same way as they have to be at the top of their game to survive in the areas they operate in where buses aren't so well used and have innovated well in terms of the commercial offer and methods to sell to and engage customers. But they have made mistakes.

The biggest bug bear of mine with NX is that they have been far too complacent over the years; the Faresaver and a virtual network monopoly has been their guardian but things won't just go on as they have for the last 20 years, they are going to have to get smarter. And whatever your opinion of Arriva, if things gets shaken up then it can only be good for the area's bus offering in general.

Interesting thoughts but just to clarify a few things. As far as I am aware, the companies sold in the 1990s such as Westlink were sold as they had outlived their purpose-too small to survive out on a limb and if you get a good price for a company you aren't mad on, why not sell?? I would hardly describe WMT/TWM or NXWM muddling through except maybe when there was the NX debacle, which the WM operation did not cause. Even then, they were part way through a refurbishment programme. Dont forget the huge numbers of buses bought new for many years which is picking up again now. The presidents on the 11 are more than certainly up to the job. Look, every company has a range of buses of different ages and not many can claim that their buses at 13 years old look as good as NXWM's presidents. They are more than definitely up to scratch and I bet passengers would think they are a lot younger than they really are. The comments about NXWM acting like a municipal or PTE are interesting. I would say that it is true to an extent that they have been prepared to work in partnership tho they are not subservient-think of the Tyburn road incident as a good example. Being like a municipal is hardly a bad thing: just getting on with running the buses and not making a fuss or axeing vast swathes of a network. There has been some innovation although even I would admit that it has been a little bit lacking. However, what does a company/what can a company do to carry even more passengers that doesnt involve tonnes of leather and posh buses only to be wrecked.

[MW]

I think AG all these Presidents at AG has shifted the depot to the top of requiring new devkers over the next few years so I live in hope!

Gemini2' s - Yes please!

[winston]

Andy,

I'm biased towards NX group as that's where my main interest lies. However, as you have quite rightly said with NXWM in particular, they are from perfect.... external & internal fleet presentation still leaves a lot to be desired, particularly the double deckers delivered new with the light blue TWM moquette, these original interiors are now thread bare & seats are dirty. Also after 5 years of being known as NXWM, they still haven't managed to eradicate the TWM fleet name. As you say NXWM have also gone through periods where new vehicle deliveries particularly double deckers were either light or nonexistent due to diverting them to Travel London as a result of tender wins or during the East Coast fiasco where cash was extremely tight and they were fighting off takeover attempts from CVC/Cosmens & Stagecoach, namely 2006 & 2008-2010. It is the lack of new double deckers delivered during those years that is now resulting in Presidents having to moved out to AG (Outer Circle) & YW (18 & 49) in order to comply with the new City Centre emission rules.

However, on the positive note:

- NXWM are now purchasing large quantities of new buses
- Every bus at repaint is also now being re-trimmed
- The quality of recent paint jobs in the latest shades of red/white seems to be far the superior / the best yet
- They are keeping passengers better informed of changes/disruption via Facebook, twitter etc & their own websites seems to have been improved by whoever is handling their media nowadays
- Some of the latest branding offerings appear to be getting there; I quite like the style of the WN (6) & CV (21)

Unfortunately, with a fleet of approx 1535 vehicles it is going to take time to improve standards across the board due to years of neglect / under investment.

I would like to see NXWM growing the WM business through innovation and setting standards without competition from Arriva or others, especially now profitability is back on track, in doing so they will only make the business even more profitable by investing in/growing it. For the time being at least they are making progress and heading in the right direction.

County Bus & Coach, Westlink, United Auto's were all originally purchased at a time when WMT were expanding prior to stock market floatation. County Bus & Coach & Westlink were acquired to give them a presence on the outskirts of London/experience of LT tendered routes and also used as a spring board to potentially acquire former LT London bus companies being privatised at the time. I believe WMT did bid for one or a number of LT subsidiaries but was either outbid or backed off due the high prices they were fetching. I believe WMT also bid for GM Buses North but again was either outbid by First or backed away due to high purchase prices. I can't remember if Highland Country buses were purchased by WMT or NX or if it was acquired through Scottish Citylink once an NX subsidiary. All of the above were disposed of following the merger of WMT & NX and seen as noncore due to not operating in urban areas, but if United Autos was as profitable as Tony suggested I don't understand why this division wasn't retained as it operated around 500 buses at the time. As for Travel London, that was disposed during the Richard Bowker era following the East Coast fiasco when money was tight/debts were high as it was seen as requiring too much cash in order to be able to grow it in to a significant size player within London.

Of the other UK bus groups Go-Ahead & Stagecoach standards seem to be pretty high across the board, First are the worst on a number of counts and Arriva's are also improving, although like NX they are having to play catch-up with new vehicle investment as too few new buses were order in previous years

I've got no objection to reading/discussing other members opinions on the NX group both good and bad as long as statements are backed up and the facts are correct.

[andy]

Winston,

Always happy to listen to your opinions on things as I know you know your stuff, certainly more than me. There is no doubt that NX are back on the ball now but as I said and as you agree, that period where they had no money and didn't invest is now catching up with them and I do still feel they could be doing more. They were very lucky somebody didn't come into the area at the time as I believe they were very vulnerable. As you say, the fact that after 5 years you can still see TWM logos about is corporate farce. I just think they need to look outwards to rectify the situation as despite the excellent facilities and staff they clearly have, they simply aren't going to be able to turn it round quickly enough.

I can't agree with Peter that the Presidents are in good condition or look great. I live on the outer circle route and frequently have to catch it over to Perry Barr...I have travelled on 5 different Presidents this week and 4 of them were a disgrace. I would imagine the workshop manager at AG is spitting feathers. He (or she!) has lost good buses that have been well looked after and gained a fleet that is tired, tatty and probably expensive and more time intensive on maintenance. He knows that there isn't much point in spending a lot on them as they won't be there long, so they will probably operate in that condition for a year or more.

I am not biased towards either operator but I get annoyed when people make sweeping remarks without the knowledge or information to justify that opinion and I say what I see out on the road.

I genuinely hope NX do as you say and look far better in another couple of years but the commercial side has just as much work to do as the rest of the business to catch up with a lot of the other large operators, as you say websites and publicity have improved but they still need to be better. Silly little things like the 'last bus out of town' info being completely out of date despite the stops having now been changed for more than 2 months.

Innovation is the way forward for them now particularly in terms of fares, travelcard schemes, local initiatives/incentives and image. Travel to other cities and you will see the sort of thing I'm on about.

[Westy]

Does NX only have one paintshop(Walsall depot)?

How long does it take to paint a vehicle?

Why don't they outsource to other operators to speed things up?

[Stu]

I think AG all these Presidents at AG has shifted the depot to the top of requiring new devkers over the next few years so I live in hope!

Gemini2' s - Yes please!

Yep, cue the next delivery of new double-decks bound for Acocks Green to 'upgrade' the Outer Circle and all the cries from people moaning that Acocks Green always get the 'new buses'.  ::)

[j789]

The outer circle is a flagship route but for many years it had older buses on it and it would be interesting to know by how much passenger numbers changed when the Geminis were put on it, I doubt very much. I caught it to school every day for 7 years with Metros on it (Metro 2039 was a regular up until 2002 - over 23 years old). The Presidents are still young in comparison. Most passengers just want a bus to turn up and as long as it is reasonable to travel on will not mind what bus turns up whether it is new or not. How many passengers do you think actually look at the bus registration anyway??? Many have enough trouble looking at the destination/ number so I dont think it matters to most people. The West Mids is not perfect but there are many places worse off, including those with large scale competition eg Sheffield. A lack of new D/D in the area is not a new problem either, after the 1990 Scanias there were no more D/D until the Optares in 1997. And if Stagecoach/ Go ahead etc owned TWM there still wouldn't be 1500 brand new buses in the fleet. Nat Ex operation has more positives than negatives.

[richie]

How many under performing bus companies have arriva bought and turned around compared to NX

Nonesense. They ruined clydeside, ruined colchester, destroyed midland red and midland fox-operate a lot less than in the past. They bought more companies to be fair-NX stuck to a smaller number of higher quality operations. They have also ruined the north east business-constantly making losses-in Durham when you see one of their darts next to a GNE brand then there's just no comparison.

When TWM owned what is now Arriva North East it was one of the most profitable companies in the country!

That may have looked like I was sticking up for arriva but I can assure you I was not!

[PM]

How many under performing bus companies have arriva bought and turned around compared to NX

Nonesense. They ruined clydeside, ruined colchester, destroyed midland red and midland fox-operate a lot less than in the past. They bought more companies to be fair-NX stuck to a smaller number of higher quality operations. They have also ruined the north east business-constantly making losses-in Durham when you see one of their darts next to a GNE brand then there's just no comparison.

When TWM owned what is now Arriva North East it was one of the most profitable companies in the country!

That may have looked like I was sticking up for arriva but I can assure you I was not!

Haha Richie-sorry I misunderstood and went off on a bit of a rant... :'(

[Discodave]

Yes all big companies are playing catchup with renews but where is the investment in Cannock, Stafford etc a few new buses here and there but then shunted to other garages and crap in return Telford gets new buses, Tamworth does so does Oswestry and good full size ones too I went on loan to most of the Arriva Midland area garages and their fleet standard were way better then Cannock just like NXWM Arriva look to help off the government for partnerships this has been mentioned in yours Andy and Winstons posts.  I am no expert but when you come in to the West Mids on a crap dart and for example you are running down the Cannock road you may be low floor and your price of fare is identical but when people see a shabby bus and have a nice NXWM bus to get on (even an optare exel is better than a dart) people will get that.  I used to think why bloody bother running to Wolverhampton to just have fresh air on board and just terminate at the scotlands and let people get on NXWM felt embarassed coming into the West Mids on the so called buses arriva has.

[Bob]

Yep and now theyre going to introduce a fleet of crappy B6 hairdryers and some ex london 51 plate darts for the Midland routes. Brilliant move sure theyll be dripping with customers

[winston]

Does NX only have one paintshop(Walsall depot)?

How long does it take to paint a vehicle?

Why don't they outsource to other operators to speed things up?

Yes the only NXWM paint shop is at Walsall, not sure who long it takes to repaint a vehicle, depends on the paint spec / application

The repaint program has increased in speed of late, as PB, WB & YW garages now appear to be undertaking more of the re-panelling & prep work leaving the paintshop to sort the repaint & removing/re-fitting the re-trimmed seats