New Deliveries / New Livery & Branding Discussion

[cardew]

West Midlands to get a share of the 198 million government pot for new zero-emission buses. Remains to be seen how many vehicles that leads to.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-on-track-to-reach-4000-zero-emission-bus-pledge-with-200-million-boost

[Tony]

West Midlands to get a share of the 198 million government pot for new zero-emission buses. Remains to be seen how many vehicles that leads to.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-on-track-to-reach-4000-zero-emission-bus-pledge-with-200-million-boost

It is for another 124 Hydrogen buses

[amodelofcontrol]

The bid itself (https://www.tfwm.org.uk/media/31il4swm/zebra-standard-wmca-fbc-final-for-publish.pdf) confirms 100 hydrogen 'deckers and 24 articulated hydrogen buses (for Sprint, of course). The latter are interesting - I can't imagine there are many manufacturers to choose from, and my first thought suggests Van Hool ExquiCities.

[monkeyjoe]

Mr Street has announced the 124 buses on LinkedIn.

[Stu]

Mr Street has announced the 124 buses on LinkedIn.

[BK63 YWP]

More hydrogen streetdecks or adl h2.0

[Stu]

The bid itself (https://www.tfwm.org.uk/media/31il4swm/zebra-standard-wmca-fbc-final-for-publish.pdf) confirms 100 hydrogen 'deckers and 24 articulated hydrogen buses (for Sprint, of course). The latter are interesting - I can't imagine there are many manufacturers to choose from, and my first thought suggests Van Hool ExquiCities.

More hydrogen streetdecks or adl h2.0

I think its fair to assume that the hydrogen double-decks will be more StreetDeck Hydroliners, unless NX Bus are totally disatisfied with the current situation which has seen their vehicles off the road for a few weeks now.

But yes, the articulated buses will be an interesting one. Unless WrightBus or ADL have something in the pipeline not yet announced (as neither seems to offer any articulated vehicles at present), we're going to see something 'all new' perhaps.

I had a quick look at the Van Hool website at their ExquiCity, and wasn't that impressed:
https://www.vanhool.be/en/public-transport/exquicity-brt/fuel-cell
http://exquicity.be/en/

Assuming that NX / TfWM would go for the 18m version, it only quotes a seating capacity of 42 (plus 4 folding), which isn't any more than a standard full-length single-decker, though there is no standing capacity quoted.

[2206]

Assuming that NX / TfWM would go for the 18m version, it only quotes a seating capacity of 42 (plus 4 folding), which isn't any more than a standard full-length single-decker, though there is no standing capacity quoted.

Shame its not 24 double deckers then, that would have 30 or so extra seats.

[Gareth]

Excellent news that new zero emission buses are on the way. Was hoping that the idea for artics had long since died. They're not a nice travelling experience.

[Stu]

Shame its not 24 double deckers then, that would have 30 or so extra seats.

24 double-deckers, which would have larger capacity, with double-doors - London style - for more efficient boarding/loading, would have been my preference.

Excellent news that new zero emission buses are on the way. Was hoping that the idea for artics had long since died. They're not a nice travelling experience.

Reading through the business case, these hydrogen vehicles aren't expected to start to enter service until late 2023.

There are of course more new electric buses due later this year.

I can't help but feel with the current fiasco surrounding the Metro trams, that the use of artics on the Sprint route will end up being a huge waste of money, but at least if anything goes wrong with them then regular double-decks can be put into service.

Somebody within TfWM truly believes that 'tram-style buses' is a fantastic idea, and is determined that this will happen, despite what misgivings others may have.

[cardew]

I can't help but feel with the current fiasco surrounding the Metro trams, that the use of artics on the Sprint route will end up being a huge waste of money, but at least if anything goes wrong with them then regular double-decks can be put into service.

Somebody within TfWM truly believes that 'tram-style buses' is a fantastic idea, and is determined that this will happen, despite what misgivings others may have.

I think you've hit the nail on the head

The hydrogen Streetdecks already have 14 fewer seats than the E400s they are replacing and I suspect passengers, once coming to terms with that, will then get miffed at trying to find one of 40 or so potential seats to avoid standing from Scott Arms to City or Yardley to Solihull. Especially in school peaks. Standing in close proximity was unpleasant enough pre-pandemic, I would suggest it is now inadvisable - but it appears to be a fait accompli.

[don]

24 double-deckers, which would have larger capacity, with double-doors - London style - for more efficient boarding/loading, would have been my preference.

There was a good reason why WMPTE stopped having double doored double deckers in 1970. They were actually slower loading because after they were fitted with appropriate safety interlocks to prevent being driven off without the centre doors being shut (there'd been at least one fatal accident owing to this factor, with passengers being injured), these buses were no quicker than single doored ones at loading, subsequently. Indeed it is only in London, Bristol and one or two other places where they are tolerated (to an extent at least one of these involves Union insistence of their use).

The artics' downfall in London was, like the NBFL Routemaster's arrival, caused by politics - in fact one perception (that the artics caused problems for cyclists is as inaccurate as considering an open platform bus does not cause safety problems). Prior to general removal of original Routemasters, any map based review of platform injury casualties simply highlighted (quite boldly) roads where Routemasters operated. Never underestimate the potential for politicians to fail to consider the facts before insisting on Policy decisions - the artics were killed by campaigns in the Evening Standard and the like, in the same way the wholly unnecessary (and many consider from a passenger viewpoint are less desirable than normal buses) NBFL was born!! Funny thing is they now require mid life refurb and TfL don't have the money to do it without losing other provision (the Government playing silly bugger politics with the Government financing seemingly because it's a different party from the mayor!!)

On Red Arrow routes like the 507, the artics were great at hoovering up very large quantities of people at bus stops. The smaller BYD replacement single decks were provided in larger quantity to compensate.

However I'm sure National Express are shuddering at the idea of operating these and are hopeful common sense will prevail at TfWM - at the very least being compensated for any variance in maintenance and operating cost will be necessary if it happens, I guess. They may be shuddering at the thought of the other 100 given the level of availability so far demonstrated by the existing 20 hydrogen double deckers  :-\

However 354 new vehicles (maybe at least??) within around 18 months will be a significant fleet investment.

[don]

There was a good reason why WMPTE stopped having double doored double deckers in 1970. They were actually slower loading because after they were fitted with appropriate safety interlocks to prevent being driven off without the centre doors being shut (there'd been at least one fatal accident owing to this factor, with passengers being injured), these buses were no quicker than single doored ones at loading, subsequently. Indeed it is only in London, Bristol and one or two other places where they are tolerated (to an extent at least one of these involves Union insistence of their use). One potential advantage these days is accessibility via the centre door.

The artics' downfall in London was, like the NBFL Routemaster's arrival, caused by politics - in fact one perception (that the artics caused problems for cyclists is as inaccurate as considering an open platform bus does not cause safety problems). Prior to general removal of original Routemasters, any map based review of platform injury casualties simply highlighted (quite boldly) roads where Routemasters operated. Never underestimate the potential for politicians to fail to consider the facts before insisting on Policy decisions - the artics were killed by campaigns in the Evening Standard and the like, in the same way the wholly unnecessary (and many consider from a passenger viewpoint are less desirable than normal buses) NBFL was born!! Funny thing is they now require mid life refurb and TfL don't have the money to do it without losing other provision (the Government playing silly bugger politics with the Government financing seemingly because it's a different party from the mayor!!)

On Red Arrow routes like the 507, the artics were great at hoovering up very large quantities of people at bus stops. The smaller BYD replacement single decks were provided in larger quantity to compensate.

However I'm sure National Express are shuddering at the idea of operating these and are hopeful common sense will prevail at TfWM - at the very least being compensated for any variance in maintenance and operating cost will be necessary if it happens, I guess. They may be shuddering at the thought of the other 100 given the level of availability so far demonstrated by the existing 20 hydrogen double deckers  :-\

However 354 new vehicles (maybe at least??) within around 18 months will be a significant fleet investment.

[Tony]

The artics' downfall in London was, like the NBFL Routemaster's arrival, caused by politics - in fact one perception (that the artics caused problems for cyclists is as inaccurate as considering an open platform bus does not cause safety problems). Prior to general removal of original Routemasters, any map based review of platform injury casualties simply highlighted (quite boldly) roads where Routemasters operated. Never underestimate the potential for politicians to fail to consider the facts before insisting on Policy decisions - the artics were killed by campaigns in the Evening Standard and the like, in the same way the wholly unnecessary (and many consider from a passenger viewpoint are less desirable than normal buses) NBFL was born!! Funny thing is they now require mid life refurb and TfL don't have the money to do it without losing other provision (the Government playing silly bugger politics with the Government financing seemingly because it's a different party from the mayor!!)

I disagree with your point on NBFL refurbishment. It is Khan disliking them purely because they were introduced by Boris. If they were not refurbished for the remaining 7 years of their planned life then 1000 other buses would be on the road instead. Most other London buses are leased, The leasing companies charge over £2000 per month, so leasing  1000 is £2m per month X 84 months that's £168m a lot more than the cost of refurbishing the NBFL which are owned by TfL

[BK63 YWP]

When are the current hydrogens returning to service?