New Deliveries / New Livery & Branding Discussion

[don]

I disagree with your point on NBFL refurbishment. It is Khan disliking them purely because they were introduced by Boris. If they were not refurbished for the remaining 7 years of their planned life then 1000 other buses would be on the road instead. Most other London buses are leased, The leasing companies charge over £2000 per month, so leasing  1000 is £2m per month X 84 months that's £168m a lot more than the cost of refurbishing the NBFL which are owned by TfL

I'm sure there's some element of that but there is also no doubt the Govt is playing silly with financing of TfL, no doubt to discredit Sadiq Khan in the hope their candidate becomes mayor next time round. Whether the public fall for it is a different matter.

I guess it depends how much is spent on the refurbs but also brand new buses of a non-bespoke type would no doubt have lower running and maintenance costs, which would no doubt be reflected in reduced tender values, so I doubt it's as straightforward as you're stating. You are still left with dingy and relatively less comfortable interiors - not sure whether new batteries would be required but if so, these would be costly.

[Tony]

I'm sure there's some element of that but there is also no doubt the Govt is playing silly with financing of TfL, no doubt to discredit Sadiq Khan in the hope their candidate becomes mayor next time round. Whether the public fall for it is a different matter.

I guess it depends how much is spent on the refurbs but also brand new buses of a non-bespoke type would no doubt have lower running and maintenance costs, which would no doubt be reflected in reduced tender values, so I doubt it's as straightforward as you're stating. You are still left with dingy and relatively less comfortable interiors - not sure whether new batteries would be required but if so, these would be costly.

My cost was just on direct replacements as you say, but the refurbishment costs were quoted as around £60m, so £100m cheaper. If they are not refurbished then there is also the additional cost of writing off the remaining book value. The other thing I know Khan is lying over them is he says they were far more expensive than other buses. The total cost of the NBFL fleet was £375m, that is £375,000 per bus. At the time these were being built Alexander Dennis were charging around £400,000 for a Hybrid E400H so not sure how the NBFLs were an 'expensive' mistake. Also the lie that TfL couldn't afford the refurbishment of them at the same time they were sending them away for refurbishment! RGI at Warwick and Hants & Dorset Trim are both doing refurbs

[don]

Politicians of all persuasions can be very clever with the way they quote things.

However I find it astounding that the price per unit of 1000 bespoke items of a completely new, ground up design could be less expensive than the price per unit
of 1000 of a developed design (whether they be ADL or Volvo/Wright hybrids). Unless creative accounting ignores such matters as design and development costs (built into off the shelf designs). In addition the bespoke design is significantly longer and contains an extra set of doors to a bespoke design.

That the NBFL relied on double manning to achieve its raison d'etre, having an open rear platform to enable Londoners to expose themselves to inordinate risk of injury by boarding/alighting through an open rear exit at any point they wish to suggests the operating costs were hugely more expensive before even considering any bespoke maintenance equipment or other unforeseen costs caused by failures of equipment in service beyond that experienced with developed, off the shelf vehicles.

I doubt Mr Khan is inaccurate saying they were/are a more expensive option overall (and probably nightmare). As an enthusiast I'm really appreciative of them, but let's face it, they were a Johnson vanity project - they were also connected (although not always directly) to the parallel premature retirement of expensive bendy buses for equally spurious reasons, no doubt at significant overall additional ultimate cost to TfL.

[Stevo]

I  too don't believe that a 3 -door 2 staircase bus can be cheaper than a 2 - door single staircase, especially if it's a bespoke design. One thing to remember is that the London artics and the Borismasters were designed for boarding and alighting at all 3 doors, which certainly speeded up the time at stops. It was loss of revenue that caused TfL to abandon that system on the Borismasters. They are great fun, though!

[Ian Hardy]

The reason the NBFLs are cheaper than other buses is that TfL have bought the buses and as a public body can get finance cheaper than a commercial company can, because the bus operators have hefty interest payments on the finance for the vehicles they lease or buy. This was stated in a presentation to the London Omnibus Traction Society a few years ago by Leon Daniels who was TfL's Director of Surface Transport at the time.

TfL could have bought any bus type it wanted, but the Mayor of London decided that he wanted the contraption that turned out to be the Boris Bus instead of a more sensible type of vehicle.

Which is why after the reductions in PVRs on the original LT operated routes, the spare LTs have been moved onto other less high profile routes in the suburbs as it is cheaper for TfL to have the LTs in use and let the bus operators deal with their own vehicles, so Go-Ahead London have transferred some MCV bodied Volvo B5LHs to Go North West instead of keeping them in London.

[markcf83]

Which is why after the reductions in PVRs on the original LT operated routes, the spare LTs have been moved onto other less high profile routes in the suburbs as it is cheaper for TfL to have the LTs in use and let the bus operators deal with their own vehicles, so Go-Ahead London have transferred some MCV bodied Volvo B5LHs to Go North West instead of keeping them in London.

The reason for the departure of the Evosetis from Peckham and their route 63 was the result of their losing the route to Abellio London.

[Ian Hardy]

The reason for the departure of the Evosetis from Peckham and their route 63 was the result of their losing the route to Abellio London.

I know that the 63 has been lost but when Go Ahead have lost other routes recently e.g. 202, 270 & 405, the buses used on those routes have been kept in London for use on other TfL routes and older buses have then been got rid of. Also only 20 of the 34 buses ordered for the 63 have gone to Go North West.

[markcf83]

Ian-the reason only twenty left is because Peckham needed the rest for the N1 and to provide cover for the Enviros on the 37 and 363.

[DJ]

This seems like the most fitting thread... BX61 LJV (originally set to be fleet no. 2013), the B7RLE that was damaged on delivery back in late 2011, has appeared on eBay for parts... or it can be purchased as one unit if any preservationists fancy a mammoth project!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165417062954?hash=item2683a0122a:g:ogAAAOSwL39iStY4

[Gareth]

I'm surprised the engine was never salvaged from it.

[andyh]

Saw yesterday morning two and this morning one of the next batch of electrics on delivery ,M6 between Wednesbury and Cannock around 0715-07.30 each day.
Platinum grey each livery no decals. 

[2900]

E034 top deck rear most window appears to be broken or missing. Are these painted the same shades of grey as the 1st gen platinums, the new livery seems to be lighter. The new livery looks to be the same design as red/whites just in grey, keep costs down on repairs i bet.

[2900]

This seems like the most fitting thread... BX61 LJV (originally set to be fleet no. 2013), the B7RLE that was damaged on delivery back in late 2011, has appeared on eBay for parts... or it can be purchased as one unit if any preservationists fancy a mammoth project!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165417062954?hash=item2683a0122a:g:ogAAAOSwL39iStY4

all ready sold i wonder if nxwm bought it would make sense , all the use,able parts would as new still

[Coventrybususer95]

E034 top deck rear most window appears to be broken or missing. Are these painted the same shades of grey as the 1st gen platinums, the new livery seems to be lighter. The new livery looks to be the same design as red/whites just in grey, keep costs down on repairs i bet.

No the window is there as you can see the "break glass" thing in the corner 

[the trainbasher]

Will the newly repainted fleet (i.e. 2001 etc) regain their names that they had prior to repaint (such as 2001 being named "The Mayors Charity Fund")

And will we see route branding be (re)applied once whole batches are repainted/the new ZE fleet arrive as a batch (such as routes like the AG4, WN3|4, CV 13 etc?)