Are Arriva going to fail in the west midlands

[bwsau cymru]

please comment to show your thoughts

[Stu]

I have no experience of using either Arriva (except in London) or Midland's buses/services, but all I will say is that Arriva must have some long-term plan in place. No great strides were ever going to be made overnight (remember Rome wasn't built in a day!).

By leasing the depot at Hill Top, and winning tenders on several Black Country services, Arriva gained themselves a foothold, to test the waters so to speak.

Then by acquiring Midland, not a major player by any means, they've gained a permanent depot, and a network of established services, to gain a further foothold.

Forget what everyone says about the standard/quality of the fleet they have at present, the fact is Arriva have arrived, and will slowly build up the business they have in this area, by acquiring further tendered contracts, and maybe then start introducing new commercial services, depending on how matters progress.

The likes of National Express West Midlands might not have much to worry about, but it is the likes of Diamond, and other small operators, who might need to start looking over their shoulders.

[PM]

I don't see the arriva threat personally. They have made a mess of the north east, their manchester presence and welsh presence is ever decreasing. I don't think NXWM and diamond have much to worry about-if MRN had wanted to stay in the west midlands they would have kept more of MRN/stevensons routes in the areas as opposed to giving them up

[Tony]

I don't see the arriva threat personally. They have made a mess of the north east, their manchester presence and welsh presence is ever decreasing. I don't think NXWM and diamond have much to worry about-if MRN had wanted to stay in the west midlands they would have kept more of MRN/stevensons routes in the areas as opposed to giving them up

And of course are still withdrawing (see thread about 112 being cut short at Sutton Coldfield)

[PM]

I don't see the arriva threat personally. They have made a mess of the north east, their manchester presence and welsh presence is ever decreasing. I don't think NXWM and diamond have much to worry about-if MRN had wanted to stay in the west midlands they would have kept more of MRN/stevensons routes in the areas as opposed to giving them up

And of course are still withdrawing (see thread about 112 being cut short at Sutton Coldfield)

Yes they are it seems to be a constant cycle of high fares and ever reduced services so some people's claims that arriva are going to conquer the west midlands seem a little unfounded-how will they be able to make new competing services work if their own routes are being cut back and they can't make they network theyve had for 25 years work!!

[s-m-991]

Personally I like using Arriva. On time mostly compared to NXWM buses, no scum sitting at the back. The only way I seeing Arriva fail is due to the naive passenger. I think its due to availability and bus passes that NXWM are far superior. I knpw people sl*g the Cannock side of things, well the Cannock based buses, I haven't seen any problems. One saturday, me and my mate got on 560 on a 57 plate Centro before we headed to Wrexham, and it was just us 2 up until near Coppice Farm. However, I would like the takeover to be a success, but it is up to the passengers of the Black Country to make it a success.

[andy]

I don't see the arriva threat personally. They have made a mess of the north east, their manchester presence and welsh presence is ever decreasing. I don't think NXWM and diamond have much to worry about-if MRN had wanted to stay in the west midlands they would have kept more of MRN/stevensons routes in the areas as opposed to giving them up

And of course are still withdrawing (see thread about 112 being cut short at Sutton Coldfield)

I don't think you can judge Arriva's strategy by a curtailment on the 112! They've played the okey cokey with the 112 several times before, the problem with it is it runs hourly on an already over bussed corridor, and generally runs in tandem with the 110 between Sutton and Birmingham. This isn't surprising really.

Arriva will target areas that they can actually make inroads without having to squeeze inbetween multiple NX vehicles. Don't forget the NX network is hardly progressive in all areas and there are gaps that they haven't bothered to plug due to lack of money and complacency.

And that's the point, why does everybody think they have to engage NX? They might play their own game?

[PM]

I don't see the arriva threat personally. They have made a mess of the north east, their manchester presence and welsh presence is ever decreasing. I don't think NXWM and diamond have much to worry about-if MRN had wanted to stay in the west midlands they would have kept more of MRN/stevensons routes in the areas as opposed to giving them up

And of course are still withdrawing (see thread about 112 being cut short at Sutton Coldfield)

I don't think you can judge Arriva's strategy by a curtailment on the 112! They've played the okey cokey with the 112 several times before, the problem with it is it runs hourly on an already over bussed corridor, and generally runs in tandem with the 110 between Sutton and Birmingham. This isn't surprising really.

Arriva will target areas that they can actually make inroads without having to squeeze inbetween multiple NX vehicles. Don't forget the NX network is hardly progressive in all areas and there are gaps that they haven't bothered to plug due to lack of money and complacency.

And that's the point, why does everybody think they have to engage NX? They might play their own game?

The curtailment of the 112 illustates a policy of managed decline over many years, punctuated by periods of investment. The NX network is pretty comprehensive!! You'll struggle to find a more comprehensive one anywhere in the country from one operator fair enough if arriva can see new travel opportunities good luck to them but I cannot see it happening

[winston]

And that's the point, why does everybody think they have to engage NX? They might play their own game?

Largely because the majority of smaller operators over the years just cream off the profitable NXWM routes during Mon - Sat daytime, and decided not to bother taking the risk in developing/building their own routes from scratch. A few notable exceptions in my area would have been Ludlows who developed their own network centred on Halesowen & Hanson's who have developed a few routes themselves

[PM]

Arriva cannot innovate on their own routes let alone innovate in an area of which they have little experience!

[andy]

And that's the point, why does everybody think they have to engage NX? They might play their own game?

Largely because the majority of smaller operators over the years just cream off the profitable NXWM routes during Mon - Sat daytime, and decided not to bother taking the risk in developing/building their own routes from scratch. A few notable exceptions in my area would have been Ludlows who developed their own network centred on Halesowen & Hanson's who have developed a few routes themselves

Exactly Winston, I think Arriva will take that initiative bearing in mind they have former NX people on board. I also don't think they are in a rush. The Midland services and tendered operations will create brand awareness in the area, then they may step it up. We will see.

[andy]

I don't see the arriva threat personally. They have made a mess of the north east, their manchester presence and welsh presence is ever decreasing. I don't think NXWM and diamond have much to worry about-if MRN had wanted to stay in the west midlands they would have kept more of MRN/stevensons routes in the areas as opposed to giving them up

And of course are still withdrawing (see thread about 112 being cut short at Sutton Coldfield)

I don't think you can judge Arriva's strategy by a curtailment on the 112! They've played the okey cokey with the 112 several times before, the problem with it is it runs hourly on an already over bussed corridor, and generally runs in tandem with the 110 between Sutton and Birmingham. This isn't surprising really.

Arriva will target areas that they can actually make inroads without having to squeeze inbetween multiple NX vehicles. Don't forget the NX network is hardly progressive in all areas and there are gaps that they haven't bothered to plug due to lack of money and complacency.

And that's the point, why does everybody think they have to engage NX? They might play their own game?

The curtailment of the 112 illustates a policy of managed decline over many years, punctuated by periods of investment. The NX network is pretty comprehensive!! You'll struggle to find a more comprehensive one anywhere in the country from one operator fair enough if arriva can see new travel opportunities good luck to them but I cannot see it happening

I think you'll find the curtailment of the 112 is more indicative of it failing to fit and failing to build traffic on an overbussed corridor, and nothing more. All operators make changes all the time.

NX may have a comprehensive network, but they don't look after it.

[PM]

I don't see the arriva threat personally. They have made a mess of the north east, their manchester presence and welsh presence is ever decreasing. I don't think NXWM and diamond have much to worry about-if MRN had wanted to stay in the west midlands they would have kept more of MRN/stevensons routes in the areas as opposed to giving them up

And of course are still withdrawing (see thread about 112 being cut short at Sutton Coldfield)

I don't think you can judge Arriva's strategy by a curtailment on the 112! They've played the okey cokey with the 112 several times before, the problem with it is it runs hourly on an already over bussed corridor, and generally runs in tandem with the 110 between Sutton and Birmingham. This isn't surprising really.

Arriva will target areas that they can actually make inroads without having to squeeze inbetween multiple NX vehicles. Don't forget the NX network is hardly progressive in all areas and there are gaps that they haven't bothered to plug due to lack of money and complacency.

And that's the point, why does everybody think they have to engage NX? They might play their own game?

The curtailment of the 112 illustates a policy of managed decline over many years, punctuated by periods of investment. The NX network is pretty comprehensive!! You'll struggle to find a more comprehensive one anywhere in the country from one operator fair enough if arriva can see new travel opportunities good luck to them but I cannot see it happening

I think you'll find the curtailment of the 112 is more indicative of it failing to fit and failing to build traffic on an overbussed corridor, and nothing more. All operators make changes all the time.

NX may have a comprehensive network, but they don't look after it.

Well they kind of do seeing as patronage is growing and the network is pretty much as comprehensive as it wa in WMPTE times

[andy]

I don't see the arriva threat personally. They have made a mess of the north east, their manchester presence and welsh presence is ever decreasing. I don't think NXWM and diamond have much to worry about-if MRN had wanted to stay in the west midlands they would have kept more of MRN/stevensons routes in the areas as opposed to giving them up

And of course are still withdrawing (see thread about 112 being cut short at Sutton Coldfield)

I don't think you can judge Arriva's strategy by a curtailment on the 112! They've played the okey cokey with the 112 several times before, the problem with it is it runs hourly on an already over bussed corridor, and generally runs in tandem with the 110 between Sutton and Birmingham. This isn't surprising really.

Arriva will target areas that they can actually make inroads without having to squeeze inbetween multiple NX vehicles. Don't forget the NX network is hardly progressive in all areas and there are gaps that they haven't bothered to plug due to lack of money and complacency.

And that's the point, why does everybody think they have to engage NX? They might play their own game?

The curtailment of the 112 illustates a policy of managed decline over many years, punctuated by periods of investment. The NX network is pretty comprehensive!! You'll struggle to find a more comprehensive one anywhere in the country from one operator fair enough if arriva can see new travel opportunities good luck to them but I cannot see it happening

I think you'll find the curtailment of the 112 is more indicative of it failing to fit and failing to build traffic on an overbussed corridor, and nothing more. All operators make changes all the time.

NX may have a comprehensive network, but they don't look after it.

Well they kind of do seeing as patronage is growing and the network is pretty much as comprehensive as it wa in WMPTE times

I'm not about to engage in another fruitless discussion with the rose tinted brigade. I think you'll find my opinions are balanced, when Arriva screw up I kick them in the way I do NX or anybody else. There are far too many on here that think NX are the crowning glory and need to get out and about from a passengers point of view and not a spotter's or enthusiast's. On that note I will bow out :-)

[Bob]

Yes they will fail.  Miserably. They havent got a  bloody clue. Clapped out Darts being repainted,  one day a Midland bus next an Arriva then a midland with  an Arriva logo! Poor image, a load of mainly empty inherited routes ( Lets face it not one is busy enough to fill a Midibus). They couldnt get it together when they took over Chase why should Midland be any different? I still hope they sell up and get out of Cannock