Which routes or corridors over the years would you say have had the most competition and provoked the most agreesive reactions from NXWM or formely TWM.
Also as an idependant bus company and not ever been in a position to reasearch what makes certain routes more attractive than others.
For instance the 94 has had loads of operators come and go over the years, however say for example the 33 on just as busy corridor has probably had a lot less if any at all ( i realise city to perry barr corridor has competition).
However it seems it always the same corridors targeted i.e 50, 94 16. However less so on corridors such as (just examples mind, which have probably had competition, just not as much like..) 45, 6 or 60.
Maybe i'm rambling however discuss.
Would think the 4 (formerly 404) has done well, Diamond (formerly Pete's Travel) have ran on there for years and today, Diamond run at a similar frequency to NXWM. Never really used them but Claribels must do well on the 94 to be able to renew the fleet regularly.
Quote from: monkeyjoe on July 04, 2013, 10:17:12 PM
Which routes or corridors over the years would you say have had the most competition and provoked the most agreesive reactions from NXWM or formely TWM.
Also as an idependant bus company and not ever been in a position to reasearch what makes certain routes more attractive than others.
For instance the 94 has had loads of operators come and go over the years, however say for example the 33 on just as busy corridor has probably had a lot less if any at all ( i realise city to perry barr corridor has competition).
However it seems it always the same corridors targeted i.e 50, 94 16. However less so on corridors such as (just examples mind, which have probably had competition, just not as much like..) 45, 6 or 60.
Maybe i'm rambling however discuss.
I'd say the 16 & 50, which have 3 operators each. Competition has previously been given on routes 74 & 87, by Diamond, but these no longer operator. The 89 as had competition all it's life, there was one point (before the Sandwell Bus Review) where it was operated by 4 companies, the 88 (now withdrawn) used to have competition. Thandi used to run the same level of daytime service as NXWM's 88, just between Londonderry & Birmingham
It does seem to be only the few "tried and tested" routes that consistently have competition, i.e. 16/94/50/404. I would say certain other routes had benefited from competition while it existed, e.g. Diamond used to run a, from memory, well loaded 51E service to Scott Arms at a fairly regular frequency, but unfortunately it didn't last, and they used to do well on the 9 from memory as well.
I do feel that operators wanting to set themselves up on a corridor should look more at establishing a niche of some sort, e.g. Central buses on the 28 should run the full route to Scott Arms, as only half the NX buses do that, or when Diamond ran the 64 to Bromsgrove (shame that one didn't last). Preparing to be shot down for this particular one, but I would also say like on the Bristol Rd, with the 61/63 and the 98, I would personally see that as a kind of competition of sorts, as I do know of some people living in Selly Oak who prefer to catch the 98 than the 61/63 into the city center, it might have something to do with the 98 route being a bit nicer than all the traffic on the Bristol Road and the smoother ride (and the buses not being Tridents)
I like what Claribels have done if I'm honest, they've established themselves on some key routes in east birmingham that gets them well noticed (and from what I've seen by the loadings, fairly well loved/appreciated) in that one particular area, if they suddenly started up on the 16 or (randomly) the 24 I doubt they would be as successful
Quote from: monkeyjoe on July 04, 2013, 10:17:12 PM
Which routes or corridors over the years would you say have had the most competition and provoked the most agreesive reactions from NXWM or formely TWM.
Also as an idependant bus company and not ever been in a position to reasearch what makes certain routes more attractive than others.
For instance the 94 has had loads of operators come and go over the years, however say for example the 33 on just as busy corridor has probably had a lot less if any at all ( i realise city to perry barr corridor has competition).
However it seems it always the same corridors targeted i.e 50, 94 16. However less so on corridors such as (just examples mind, which have probably had competition, just not as much like..) 45, 6 or 60.
Maybe i'm rambling however discuss.
The 33 and Pershore Road have both had competition, but both times it was Thandi!
Quote from: Tony on July 05, 2013, 08:19:55 AM
The 33 and Pershore Road have both had competition, but both times it was Thandi!
Knew I remembered something else on the 33, couldn't quite picture it though
Quote from: Tony on July 05, 2013, 08:19:55 AM
Quote from: monkeyjoe on July 04, 2013, 10:17:12 PM
Which routes or corridors over the years would you say have had the most competition and provoked the most agreesive reactions from NXWM or formely TWM.
Also as an idependant bus company and not ever been in a position to reasearch what makes certain routes more attractive than others.
For instance the 94 has had loads of operators come and go over the years, however say for example the 33 on just as busy corridor has probably had a lot less if any at all ( i realise city to perry barr corridor has competition).
However it seems it always the same corridors targeted i.e 50, 94 16. However less so on corridors such as (just examples mind, which have probably had competition, just not as much like..) 45, 6 or 60.
Maybe i'm rambling however discuss.
The 33 and Pershore Road have both had competition, but both times it was Thandi!
I am aware these routes have had competition, but hardly very much as compared to other routes. Also the point is competition that actually made any impact or caused for any reactions etc.
Quote from: Tony on July 05, 2013, 08:19:55 AM
Quote from: monkeyjoe on July 04, 2013, 10:17:12 PM
Which routes or corridors over the years would you say have had the most competition and provoked the most agreesive reactions from NXWM or formely TWM.
Also as an idependant bus company and not ever been in a position to reasearch what makes certain routes more attractive than others.
For instance the 94 has had loads of operators come and go over the years, however say for example the 33 on just as busy corridor has probably had a lot less if any at all ( i realise city to perry barr corridor has competition).
However it seems it always the same corridors targeted i.e 50, 94 16. However less so on corridors such as (just examples mind, which have probably had competition, just not as much like..) 45, 6 or 60.
Maybe i'm rambling however discuss.
The 33 and Pershore Road have both had competition, but both times it was Thandi!
Central Buses once tried a 33 with battered old darts (none low floor)
The following routes have benefited most from competiton, in my opinion.
16 which BCC began on de-regulation day in 1986
404 which began 20 years ago with Pete's Travel using 2 dodge minibuses (black and white loivery with red lettering)
WA 301 which when branded as Superline was run in partnership with Choice Travel 171 which both operators had branded new single decker vehicles. Shortly after Choice withdrew A2Z began operating and then Diamon Bus filled the gap after they went out of business.
I agree that in Birmingham the 16, 50 and 94 have consistently had the most competition for NXWM.
If monkeyjoe is asking why those routes have been targeted more than others, it is because they carry the most passengers. I would guess that it is due to a combination reasons.
These services each have most of the busiest sections of route to themselves. They also serve at least two shopping centres and densely-populated suburbs, so buses can fill up twice on each single journey. The 50 in particular does not have a quiet section of route. Also, apart from at Hamstead, there are no railways around to provide a quick journey to and from town.
Quote from: Justin Tyme on July 05, 2013, 08:28:46 PM
I agree that in Birmingham the 16, 50 and 94 have consistently had the most competition for NXWM.
If monkeyjoe is asking why those routes have been targeted more than others, it is because they carry the most passengers. I would guess that it is due to a combination reasons.
These services each have most of the busiest sections of route to themselves. They also serve at least two shopping centres and densely-populated suburbs, so buses can fill up twice on each single journey. The 50 in particular does not have a quiet section of route. Also, apart from at Hamstead, there are no railways around to provide a quick journey to and from town.
Interesting you should say that, if that is case why do routes such as 16 & 94 get treated as second rate routes by the NXWM management. Compared to routes like 51,33, 104, 37 bla bla bla. Just need educating.
97 during the 1990s
Petes Travel
Serverse TraveL
Bharat travel
Frontline buses
Central connect
Quote from: lynx1103 on July 05, 2013, 09:14:45 PM
97 during the 1990s
Petes Travel
Serverse TraveL
Bharat travel
Frontline buses
Central connect
central connect in the 1990s-they only came into being in 2006
I notice people love to correct others one here. The point is being mad it is still context. The fact the comp came in a different period doesn't matter surely. ;)
I think the 97 has benefitted the most tbh. When tame valley then Serverse first started the 96/97 ran a joint frequency of every 12 mins. This was then increased to every 10 mins jointly. At one point the 96 (to bluebell drive dropped to every 20 mins when the united group started on the 97 & the 97 increased to every 7 mins.
But look at the route now every 4 mins & running 24 hours. So yeah the 97 has definately benefitted.
Petes & Red Arrow both operated the 33 on a joint registration but the figures didn't add up & it was soon dropped I think the highest cash figure was about £70.
The 14 has had its share of competition, Burman travel, little Red Bus, Severse Travel (slightly modified to run to chelmsley wood & through duddeston as the 54 ironically this is now the route of the 14), Midland Rider, Cityspeed, redwing Ampm & Sunny Travel. Interestingly even back in the Serverse days the insurance companies were not happy with buses running along the Alum Rock Road
Back in their day I think Little Red Bus tried virtually every route in B'ham & even now they are the only company to ever compete on the 60.
I used to enjoy the brief choice of TWM & Diamond on the 529, especially if TWM were running late, then for 50p & my pass, I didnt have to hang around, especially as I could do the same on the 301.
It was daft getting rid of that 50p subsidy.
Bums on seats, isnt that what they want?
I believe Arriva might still do something similar, is that right?
Little Red Bus tried a great number of routes with Dodge Minibuses B14, B17, B23, B29, B87 among many others.
They got heavily into tendered work including Sundays on the 144 Birmingham - Malvern.
Quote from: fleetline6477 on July 06, 2013, 05:54:49 PM
Little Red Bus tried a great number of routes with Dodge Minibuses B14, B17, B23, B29, B87 among many others.
They got heavily into tendered work including Sundays on the 144 Birmingham - Malvern.
What happened to the Little Red Bus Co? I can't remember what became of them
The Dudley Road services always saw a lot of competition a few years back, then its all dropped off.
i.e. 82 & 88 - Thandi Companies (Transol, MBC1, Lynx Solutions), Falcon Travel, Did BCC not also have a go on the 82 for a short period?
87 - BCC / Little Red Bus Co
Some years back now, when I lived in Bearwood while working near Erdington, and while having a monthly Centro pass (whatever they were called back then, but known as the nBus now!) I used to catch the 82 into Birmingham (as at peak times it could be quicker than getting the 120/128/258 along the Hagley Road, and less crowded!), and there was some 'scummy' little operator (forget the name now as they used unliveried buses) who also operated the 82, and I'd prefer to catch that one if I could as they used to go down Great Charles Street, rather than the NXWM 82/87 route round by Smallbrook Queensway.
I do now remember Birmingham Coach Company / Diamond also operating a competing 87 service though I never used it myself, did theirs only used to go as far as Oldbury though?
On a similar note, on the 120 route, as well as Travel West Midlands (at the time), you also had Birmingham Coach Company / Diamond as well as Sunny Travel competing also (though Sunny Travel only operated to/from Oldbury/Birmingham). Now there is only NXWM.
Quote from: Stu on July 06, 2013, 07:03:58 PM
I do now remember Birmingham Coach Company / Diamond also operating a competing 87 service though I never used it myself, did theirs only used to go as far as Oldbury though?
I think BCC's 87 has done B'ham - Oldbury & the full length route over the years
Quote from: Stu on July 06, 2013, 07:03:58 PM
Some years back now, when I lived in Bearwood while working near Erdington, and while having a monthly Centro pass (whatever they were called back then, but known as the nBus now!) I used to catch the 82 into Birmingham (as at peak times it could be quicker than getting the 120/128/258 along the Hagley Road, and less crowded!), and there was some 'scummy' little operator (forget the name now as they used unliveried buses) who also operated the 82, and I'd prefer to catch that one if I could as they used to go down Great Charles Street, rather than the NXWM 82/87 route round by Smallbrook Queensway.
I do now remember Birmingham Coach Company / Diamond also operating a competing 87 service though I never used it myself, did theirs only used to go as far as Oldbury though?
On a similar note, on the 120 route, as well as Travel West Midlands (at the time), you also had Birmingham Coach Company / Diamond as well as Sunny Travel competing also (though Sunny Travel only operated to/from Oldbury/Birmingham). Now there is only NXWM.
Birmingham Coach Company used to match the WMT frequency on the 120 along the full route, with both running at every 20 minutes during the daytime. I think for a short while didn't BCC also have the tendered evening service on the 120 as well. It always surprised me that they came off the 120 since they gave it a good go for many years.... and once they did come off it, NXWM increased the frequency to every 10 minutes between Oldbury and Birmingham
Quote from: sonic84 on July 06, 2013, 07:43:00 PM
Quote from: Stu on July 06, 2013, 07:03:58 PM
Some years back now, when I lived in Bearwood while working near Erdington, and while having a monthly Centro pass (whatever they were called back then, but known as the nBus now!) I used to catch the 82 into Birmingham (as at peak times it could be quicker than getting the 120/128/258 along the Hagley Road, and less crowded!), and there was some 'scummy' little operator (forget the name now as they used unliveried buses) who also operated the 82, and I'd prefer to catch that one if I could as they used to go down Great Charles Street, rather than the NXWM 82/87 route round by Smallbrook Queensway.
I do now remember Birmingham Coach Company / Diamond also operating a competing 87 service though I never used it myself, did theirs only used to go as far as Oldbury though?
On a similar note, on the 120 route, as well as Travel West Midlands (at the time), you also had Birmingham Coach Company / Diamond as well as Sunny Travel competing also (though Sunny Travel only operated to/from Oldbury/Birmingham). Now there is only NXWM.
Birmingham Coach Company used to match the WMT frequency on the 120 along the full route, with both running at every 20 minutes during the daytime. I think for a short while didn't BCC also have the tendered evening service on the 120 as well. It always surprised me that they came off the 120 since they gave it a good go for many years.... and once they did come off it, NXWM increased the frequency to every 10 minutes between Oldbury and Birmingham
You're right about the 120; BCC/Diamond and TWM/NXWM combined to provide a 10min frequency along the whole route, then Sunny Travel filled in also between Birmingham and Oldbury, so with a Centro pass, when I used to live with my parents, I was spoilt for choice! Those were the good days! As I recall, once Diamond came off the 120, NXWM increased their frequency to 15 minutes, when WB operated it, which then changed a couple of years ago (after the Dudley Review and the route passed to PE), which saw the overall frequency reduced back to 20 mins, with additional 120E journeys to Oldbury, providing a 10min frequency between Oldbury and Birmingham.
Evening and Sunday journeys were every hour, but are now half-hourly, no complaints here!
Quote from: Winston on July 06, 2013, 06:25:16 PM
The Dudley Road services always saw a lot of competition a few years back, then its all dropped off.
i.e. 82 & 88 - Thandi Companies (Transol, MBC1, Lynx Solutions), Falcon Travel, Did BCC not also have a go on the 82 for a short period?
87 - BCC / Little Red Bus Co
I don't ever remember Falcon travel on Dudley Road routes. BCC have nver done 82 to my memory. When Thandi Travcel came off the 82 / 88E Pete's travel began operating these routes. The 82 was short lived but the 88E carried on longer.
Quote from: fleetline6477 on July 06, 2013, 09:52:37 PM
Quote from: Winston on July 06, 2013, 06:25:16 PM
The Dudley Road services always saw a lot of competition a few years back, then its all dropped off.
i.e. 82 & 88 - Thandi Companies (Transol, MBC1, Lynx Solutions), Falcon Travel, Did BCC not also have a go on the 82 for a short period?
87 - BCC / Little Red Bus Co
I don't ever remember Falcon travel on Dudley Road routes. BCC have nver done 82 to my memory. When Thandi Travcel came off the 82 / 88E Pete's travel began operating these routes. The 82 was short lived but the 88E carried on longer.
Maybe I'm getting confused with Falcon Travel then, I remember frequently seeing their buses at the bottom end of New St where the Dudley Road services once went from
I had forgotten about Pete's having a go as well
Winston Lttle Red Bus sold off most of their buses to buy 4 Marshall darts & rent 3 Plaxton mini darts operating under the trading name Rec Arrow Express on the 17 & 97 alongside Petes travel, Cityspeed Bharat & Serverse Travel as part of the United consortium. The two directors later sold the business to Bharat & moved down to Devon where they now operate as Summercourt Travel alongside the 2 directors of Cityspeed who also sold up to Bharats.
Bharats had a very good business building until the 3 of the 4 directors were jailed for VAT fraud. I left shortly afterwards when it became apparent that the remaining Director was more interested in personal wealth over the viability of the business "he was taking as much out of the business as possible for hself including selling the darts to replace them with cheap minibuses & pocketing the difference. Had that not happened Bharats could have been a strong force in the bus industry with the money they had behind them. They have built the business back onto a very strong footing again although now they are concentrating on the coach business & their express network where they compete against Thandi
Quote from: Steveminor on July 06, 2013, 11:15:09 PM
Winston Lttle Red Bus sold off most of their buses to buy 4 Marshall darts & rent 3 Plaxton mini darts operating under the trading name Rec Arrow Express on the 17 & 97 alongside Petes travel, Cityspeed Bharat & Serverse Travel as part of the United consortium. The two directors later sold the business to Bharat & moved down to Devon where they now operate as Summercourt Travel alongside the 2 directors of Cityspeed who also sold up to Bharats.
Bharats had a very good business building until the 3 of the 4 directors were jailed for VAT fraud. I left shortly afterwards when it became apparent that the remaining Director was more interested in personal wealth over the viability of the business "he was taking as much out of the business as possible for hself including selling the darts to replace them with cheap minibuses & pocketing the difference. Had that not happened Bharats could have been a strong force in the bus industry with the money they had behind them. They have built the business back onto a very strong footing again although now they are concentrating on the coach business & their express network where they compete against Thandi
Thanks Steve, yes I remember Red Arrow Express, didn't realise they originated from the Little Red Bus Co. As it happens I'll be in Perranporth, Cornwall this time next week, so will get to see Summercourt Travel & how Western Greyhound are doing after the fire.
Would I be right in saying that the express coach network that both Thandi & Bharats compete offer destinations aimed at the Asian community rather than competing with NX?
From your various posts, you seem as though you have been involved with quite a few of the smaller WM operators over the years
Yes Winston I prefer working with the smaller operators instead of NX & still have contact & lend advice to several every few weeks even though I now work full time outside the bus industry.
Bharat & Thandis express networks do mainly aim for the Asian communities however they do compete with NX although they compete with each other a lot harder it has been known for fights to break out when Thandi have entered Bharats Birmingham or southall coach stations. Truth be told Bharats are much stronger than Thandi & operate a much more extensive network including services to Leeds & Bradford. The Leicester Southall service is operated jointly between the Birmingham & London depots the leed/Bradford service only operates on the days when the birmingham depot isn't operating the Leicester service. It's a very Strang kind of set up where asian people just seem to know when the coaches are due & don't need timetables or leaflets.
You can even send parcels & food on thd coaches without travelling.
It's hard to describe, you have to work their to fully understand it.
It certainly was an experience I will never forget much much different to operating the stage carriage service.
Steve, thanks for the info, did you ever start out at NX or predecessor then?
I tend to find with my clients in the Architectural Metalwork industry, that working for the smaller companies is far friendlier & what you do as a sub contractor is far more appreciated, where the bigger firms are far more contractual and happily screw you over, even if they run the risk of you never working for them again
I started out with Claribels when they first started out in the buses back when they were using old Ford coaches & having to fuel up with whatever money they had taken (that's why occasionally you would see the Tiger Doyens of the little caetano on service (ford didnt have enough fuel as it hadn't taken enough money. Back then Claribels were seen as a complete joke.
That's why I get defensive over some of the operators people slate on here as some of them show good promise just a slight cash flow problem at present, but they DO want to do things right.
Yeah Winston I find the smaller companies appreciate you more, even an NX inspector (or 2) has said they are just treated as a number rather than a person.
Steve, I'd guess some the biggest problems facing smaller operators are the costs of fuel & insurances
Although Claribels didn't have the best of starts as you say, they have come on leaps & bounds over the last few years and have survived & generally stuck to the same routes form day one and built a loyal following. I can't imagine there is anything major that they could be picked up for, they seem to now be a well run company with an impressive modern fleet which includes the associated Birmingham internal Coaches fleet.
You do tend find your generally just a number within the big firms and I've found there is them & us culture despite you all working for the same company
The biggest problem the smaller operators face is the TC. If a small operator screws up the TC can quite easily put them off the road without effecting the public TOO much. Now when a large firm I.e NX Arriva or First even to a certain extent Rotala is called up before the TC then all he can really do is issue a fine as, well imagine what chaos there would be if NXWM were suddenly unable to run a bus.
So in that respect the smaller you are the more careful you have to be & on a much tighter budget that isn't easy.
People say about Sunny Travel or Sandwell Travel or GRS cutting mileage (even Claribels do) but as long as it is recorded & documented & as long as its to try & keep a vehicle to schedule then the TC prefers this to buses just running on route but continually off time.
I don't know the full ins and outs, but WMT had dealings with the Traffic commissioner in the early to mid 90s. The state of the fleet at that time was very tatty. If you think today's fleet is bad, you should have seen it then. I don't remember it being that bad, but when you see photos of that period, the standards look awful. Old buses running in multiple liveries, some running with bare panels and others undercoat etc. I've heard that the TC ordered the whole fleet to be MOT'd within 3 months. Any truth in that. Standards picked up again from about 1995 and into 1996 when WM Buses were sold to National Express.
Quote from: Steveminor on July 07, 2013, 07:27:08 AM
I started out with Claribels when they first started out in the buses back when they were using old Ford coaches & having to fuel up with whatever money they had taken (that's why occasionally you would see the Tiger Doyens of the little caetano on service (ford didnt have enough fuel as it hadn't taken enough money. Back then Claribels were seen as a complete joke.
That's why I get defensive over some of the operators people slate on here as some of them show good promise just a slight cash flow problem at present, but they DO want to do things right.
Yeah Winston I find the smaller companies appreciate you more, even an NX inspector (or 2) has said they are just treated as a number rather than a person.
I would love to work for one of these smaller operators but I would be interested to know Steve if, in your experience, you still think that smaller independants will be able to survive in the future with higher costs, perhaps less passengers and more allegiance to National Express. is it harder to compete now than before or about the same? Just interested to hear
Quote from: Gareth on July 07, 2013, 04:00:08 PM
I don't know the full ins and outs, but WMT had dealings with the Traffic commissioner in the early to mid 90s. The state of the fleet at that time was very tatty. If you think today's fleet is bad, you should have seen it then. I don't remember it being that bad, but when you see photos of that period, the standards look awful. Old buses running in multiple liveries, some running with bare panels and others undercoat etc. I've heard that the TC ordered the whole fleet to be MOT'd within 3 months. Any truth in that. Standards picked up again from about 1995 and into 1996 when WM Buses were sold to National Express.
Gareth, yes that does ring bells with me. I think WMT had serious issues with its maintenance procedures/set-up at the time
Gareth & Winston, that is my point exactly WMT were ordered to re MOT their entire fleet within 3 months this gave Centro time to get a plan ready just in case. But how many smaller operators were put off the road immediately for maintenance issues that in my opinion at least we're not quite as bad as WMT.
Peter, I think we are already seeing a change in the way smaller operators run their business. Look at Select who have gone for Staffordshire contract work to help pay the bills or the way Sandwell Travel have invented their own route so they don't have to compete head to head with anyone.
Even Diamond have dropped a lot of their head to head competition routes in favour of their own routes & tendered work.
We are also now seeing more in fighting between smaller companies I.e Greenbus v diamond 50 GRS v Diamond 16 Sunny Travel v Claribels 71E the thought process there is to take the loyal cash payers off the other small company rather than NX who have the daysavers & Travelcards to protect them. I will stick my neck out & say that we will lose at least one operator before the year is out there are one or two who are really struggling now. But we all know what this game is like & I know of at least one new company who have just purchased 5 buses & are now looking for a route to begin operating. I won't say Amy companies name or give any bus registrations but will say it is a full low floor start up with you've guessed it Darts.
Interesting stuff Steve.
I still think Diamond could have been a much bigger/stringer force in the West Midlands, when they first purchased Go West Midlands they had a good network of core commercial routes mainly in competition with NX, they invested quite heavily in new buses in the early years of Rotala ownership & introduced various 'Trent' derived branding's, Red Diamond even tried to take on First on Worcester. Obviously the economic downturn has had some effect, but I just can't help but feel that Diamond is just plodding along, as well as NXWM 'turning up the heat' on competing commercial routes they now have GRS & Green Bus to contend with competing against them for the few cash paying passengers that are left and they don't seem to be doing a lot to try & combat it. Diamond appear happier to just back off & retreat and withdraw from any services where the going get tougher, after all 'you get out what you put in'. With the pledges of large numbers of new buses by NX and further improvements in the existing fleet, service delivery & quality, I can see this only exaggerating the problem & adding further pressure on Diamonds remaining commercial routes.
I think smaller operators should carve a niche market for themselves to gain a loyal local following; they could do this by creating completely new routes offering new links/journey opportunities but reduce the financial risks by taking in parts of busy corridors currently operated by NX. Effectively the new route would become a variant complementing a core NX routes that ultimately go to different final destinations. As I see it, by taking in some of a busy established corridor they may take some passengers off the likes of NX that are only travelling part of the route, but it would potentially attract less attention or response from NX. I believe this would be of more benefit to existing bus users/potentially attracting new bus users over direct copies and having corridors heavily over bussed. Ludlows & Hansons were both successful in establishing brand new routes from scratch.
Let's hope the new entrant isn't Scott Dunn's Yourbus, he may give NX are harder time up against a fleet of brand new Citaros. Incidentally, I see Yourbus is backing off competing against Trent's Red Arrow but is starting up further new services and also taking delivery of a further 9 new Merc Citaros
Quote from: Steveminor on July 07, 2013, 07:45:53 PM
Gareth & Winston, that is my point exactly WMT were ordered to re MOT their entire fleet within 3 months this gave Centro time to get a plan ready just in case. But how many smaller operators were put off the road immediately for maintenance issues that in my opinion at least we're not quite as bad as WMT.
Peter, I think we are already seeing a change in the way smaller operators run their business. Look at Select who have gone for Staffordshire contract work to help pay the bills or the way Sandwell Travel have invented their own route so they don't have to compete head to head with anyone.
Even Diamond have dropped a lot of their head to head competition routes in favour of their own routes & tendered work.
We are also now seeing more in fighting between smaller companies I.e Greenbus v diamond 50 GRS v Diamond 16 Sunny Travel v Claribels 71E the thought process there is to take the loyal cash payers off the other small company rather than NX who have the daysavers & Travelcards to protect them. I will stick my neck out & say that we will lose at least one operator before the year is out there are one or two who are really struggling now. But we all know what this game is like & I know of at least one new company who have just purchased 5 buses & are now looking for a route to begin operating. I won't say Amy companies name or give any bus registrations but will say it is a full low floor start up with you've guessed it Darts.
Really interesting stuff Steve and really interesting that we might see a new entrant to the WM bus scene soon-adds a bit of variety. Clearly competition is still possible and certain operators seem to be doing ok
Regarding any new entrants, the latest N & P shows two potential new operators:
DTS who have applied for a licence for up to 6 vehicles, and North Birmingham Travel who have been granted a licence:
D T S LTD
Director(s): BALKAR SINGH.
PD1121581 SN
8 ERNEST ROAD SMETHWICK B67 7LP
Operating Centre: 2 HARVILLS IND ESTATE, HAWTHORN ,
WEST BROMWICH B70 0UH
Authorisation:6 Vehicle(s).
Transport Manager(s): SUBHASH GOHEL
NORTH BIRMINGHAM TRAVEL LIMITED
Director(s): JAMES PIKE.
(2174)
147 WADDINGTON AVENUE, GREAT BARR , BIRMINGHAM B43 5JD
Operating Centre: CONCRETE DEVELOPMENTS (GREAT BARR) LTD, UNIT 5, BALTIMORE ROAD BIRMINGHAM B42 1DD
Authorisation:10 Vehicle(s).
Transport Manager(s): JAMES FREDERICK PIKE
Your bus is the stronger company now thanks to some of the top people moving across from Diamond. I believe the gentleman behind Diamonds route branding is there as well now so that could explain the disserperance of the branded buses as he was the one insistant on keeping branded buses on their routes. It is no suprise to me that the Dunns are putting everything into Your Bus after all they own that 100% where as they are only share holders in Rotala.
It shows you the way Diamond is heading when their top covert inspector is laid off to cut costs no doubt. Very short sighted as he was VERY good at his job.
As for the new entrant they could be on a head to head competative service or it could be a slight variation of across several NX routes, it all depends on how the figures add up but if the latter happens would be very interesting.
Quote from: D10 on July 07, 2013, 09:22:27 PM
Regarding any new entrants, the latest N & P shows two potential new operators:
DTS who have applied for a licence for up to 6 vehicles, and North Birmingham Travel who have been granted a licence:
D T S LTD
Director(s): BALKAR SINGH.
PD1121581 SN
8 ERNEST ROAD SMETHWICK B67 7LP
Operating Centre: 2 HARVILLS IND ESTATE, HAWTHORN ,
WEST BROMWICH B70 0UH
Authorisation:6 Vehicle(s).
Transport Manager(s): SUBHASH GOHEL
NORTH BIRMINGHAM TRAVEL LIMITED
Director(s): JAMES PIKE.
(2174)
147 WADDINGTON AVENUE, GREAT BARR , BIRMINGHAM B43 5JD
Operating Centre: CONCRETE DEVELOPMENTS (GREAT BARR) LTD, UNIT 5, BALTIMORE ROAD BIRMINGHAM B42 1DD
Authorisation:10 Vehicle(s).
Transport Manager(s): JAMES FREDERICK PIKE
Really hope that these companies are not only interesting to us but are good companies for the public too. More competition can only be a good thing and its good to see that the true spirit of deregulation is still alive and well. Guess we wont know for a while which routes will be operated
If you type in the address of North Birmingham Travel on street view and zoom in, you get that that is already the registered address of North Birmingham Travel Coach Hire ltd so clearly branching out
Quote from: Steveminor on July 07, 2013, 07:45:53 PM
Gareth & Winston, that is my point exactly WMT were ordered to re MOT their entire fleet within 3 months this gave Centro time to get a plan ready just in case. But how many smaller operators were put off the road immediately for maintenance issues that in my opinion at least we're not quite as bad as WMT.
None! not one small operator has been put off the road for bad maintenance when Vosa have arrived and found faults. What they were put off the road for was failing to address the situation and being caught out again or a combination of bad maintenance and other problems
Quote from: D10 on July 07, 2013, 09:22:27 PM
Regarding any new entrants, the latest N & P shows two potential new operators:
DTS who have applied for a licence for up to 6 vehicles, and North Birmingham Travel who have been granted a licence:
D T S LTD
Director(s): BALKAR SINGH.
PD1121581 SN
8 ERNEST ROAD SMETHWICK B67 7LP
Operating Centre: 2 HARVILLS IND ESTATE, HAWTHORN ,
WEST BROMWICH B70 0UH
Authorisation:6 Vehicle(s).
Transport Manager(s): SUBHASH GOHEL
NORTH BIRMINGHAM TRAVEL LIMITED
Director(s): JAMES PIKE.
(2174)
147 WADDINGTON AVENUE, GREAT BARR , BIRMINGHAM B43 5JD
Operating Centre: CONCRETE DEVELOPMENTS (GREAT BARR) LTD, UNIT 5, BALTIMORE ROAD BIRMINGHAM B42 1DD
Authorisation:10 Vehicle(s).
Transport Manager(s): JAMES FREDERICK PIKE
Certainly not North Birmingham. Mr Pike is quite happy earning a living doing what he is doing with his minibuses and coaches, all he is doing is changing to a limited company.
I've no idea who Mr Singh is, but Mr Gohel was involved in SMG International, another coach operator that didn't manage to last very long
Quote from: Steveminor on July 07, 2013, 09:33:11 PM
Your bus is the stronger company now thanks to some of the top people moving across from Diamond. I believe the gentleman behind Diamonds route branding is there as well now so that could explain the disserperance of the branded buses as he was the one insistant on keeping branded buses on their routes. It is no suprise to me that the Dunns are putting everything into Your Bus after all they own that 100% where as they are only share holders in Rotala.
It shows you the way Diamond is heading when their top covert inspector is laid off to cut costs no doubt. Very short sighted as he was VERY good at his job.
As for the new entrant they could be on a head to head competative service or it could be a slight variation of across several NX routes, it all depends on how the figures add up but if the latter happens would be very interesting.
I'd already clocked that Scott Dunn had took most of Diamonds senior management team with him, but I gather that some of them came with him in the first place. I think the gentleman behind Diamonds branding initially left to persue some other opportunity, but obviously has since joined Scott's team. I wonder if one day the Dunn's may increase their stake in Rotala so they have more say in how the business is run, they only own just over 4.5% at present. The biggest shareholder in Rotala Plc is John Gunn and he is 70 and could be looking the retire at anytime? I think Diamond are on a slippery slope, if they loose the First Redditch business and it has to be sold to another party I think they will struggle. If the Redditch sale gets approved without any major restrictions it may be the part of the business that helps Diamond to invest in the West Midlands.
I would admire a new entrant for doing the latter & providing new links rather than a direct copy going head to head.
North Birmingham Travel is a mininbus/coach operator
http://www.northbirminghamtravel.co.uk/contactus.php
So you'd be looking at D.T.S Ltd
Tony I'm not just talking about the West Midlands but the country as a whole & I do know at least one operator in the Mids that was put straight off the road by the TC for maintenance besides Tony TWM wouldnt have been called before the TC & told to re MOT their fleet unless as you say their was a maintenance issue that wasn't subsequently resolved. The difference is the TC can't pull such a large operator off the road like he can with smaller guys. Would there be any major disruption to the public if say Travel Express suddenly were pulled off the road. It's unfair really everyone knows it, but hey that's the name of the game so anyone running buses just has to accept that fact, like other unfair situations.
If the encumbent runs their own bus stations any competitor loses out when they either can't get in or are allocated a stand well away from where any intending passenger is likely to be or as was the case in Worcester competitor can't get to the stand because thd encumbent who runs the bus station has blocked the stands with their buses.
Another unfairness is when the local authority or government organisation gives preference to the encumbent I.E job centres giving day tickets (which have been purchased) for the encumbent to people who need to travel to a job interview & as was the case in Somerset tried to uphold a complaint from the encumbent that their competitor was using a Routemaster in stage carriage service. The council was soon told where to go by the way.
But like I say that is the way things are & have been since deregulation so we all just get on with it. In some ways the larger operators don't know how lucky they are.
Another example of how incumbents are protected by the local authority, in Tamworth AMPM were questioned regarding the concessionary passes as Arrivas figures had not dropped since AMPM started meaning that AMPM must be claiming for concessionary passes they weren't carrying. When we looked at the figures & the letter from the council it was basically suggesting that AMPM weren't carrying any concessionary passes as Arrivas pass figures had increased. This was cleared up with deffinative hard evidence that AMPM were carrying more concessionary passengers than Arriva.
It will all depend on the figures Winston as to what route is chosen. No point putting on a new service only to have to take it off again within a couple of months.
Of course these figures are on paper in the real world it could still fail look @ Heartlands bus 67X on paper that route should have been epic but in reality it just didn't quite pan out. Maybe because Mr James insisted on putting on a minibus & then taking one of the 2 buses off to do a school route but never the less in the real world I don't think it would ever make anywhere near the projected figures.
Steve, I see where you are coming from, obviously having the figures of an established service you are considering going head to head on should give you a better idea of potential revenue, but there is still no guarantee that those passengers would defect to the competing service either.
At some point the only way to grow bus patronage in the West Midlands bus market will be by introducing new routes & offering new links aimed at current non bus users. There are only so many people living within an accessible radius of the main core corridors, eventually frequency increases may have a negative increase as operating costs have spiralled while the number of additional passengers is lower than anticipated. Obviously some new routes will be a flop, while other will be a success. May be a safer options for smaller operators would be have a combination of both types of routes to reduce risk
The difficulty with new routes is your figures could be further out as you can never know how many people need that link or would choose the direct bus over catching 2 "proper buses" (as people still call NX). You can theorise on passenger numbers if you are combining 2 existing services lets say for arguement sake you were going to operate from city to Scott arms along the 51 route then into West Brom along the 451. You have the figures for the 51 section & the figures for the 451 section (yes I know it isn't the 451 anymore), now you can theorise that a perry bar to West a rom route would provide a much needed link & yes it would be used & be a much welcomed direct service, but by how many? Now if you can turn a profit on the 51 & 451 sections then you have a viable service & anyone that uses this new link is just a bonus. However if you can't turn a profit out of putting those 2 routes together, well it's not worth the risk as you would probably lose money & if you're a new start operator it could potentially end your business.
Steve fair points.....
Just out of interest, how does a smaller operator manage to obtain figures for NX routes? do the full passenger numbers carried have to be made available to Centro which include passenger using NX travelcards as well?
If only it were that simple lol. No I'm afraid it's a case of travelling on the bus with a cople of clicker counters manually counting how many cash concessions & pass holders get on the bus. It takes weeks to get a large enough sample journeys to make any assessment & that's just if you're going into head to head competition, so if you're going to combine routes well that's when you certainly earn your money. The only time you can get figures off centro is for tendered services under FOI request but even then as was the case when AMPM commercialised the Sunday 71, it's still advisable to check the figures for yourself.
Steve I did wonder, so you go in undercover....... it was just when you kept mentioning 'the figures' all the time...... ;D
Thanks for all your replies, very interesting! even though I've made myself like a right plonker with the last reply...... ::)
Not made yourself look like a plonker at all Winston I mean if you don't know how you supposed to find out without asking.
Quote from: Steveminor on July 07, 2013, 10:50:59 PM
Tony I'm not just talking about the West Midlands but the country as a whole & I do know at least one operator in the Mids that was put straight off the road by the TC for maintenance besides Tony TWM wouldnt have been called before the TC & told to re MOT their fleet unless as you say their was a maintenance issue that wasn't subsequently resolved. The difference is the TC can't pull such a large operator off the road like he can with smaller guys.
I didn't say there wasn't a maintenance issue at TWM. I remember the incident very well, it was the result of a VOSA visit to Birmingham Central garage. That was what started TWM using VCRs because one of the complaints the TC made was that the driver reporting system was inadequate. What is interesting is sine TWM introduced the VCR any other operator with similar problems has been advised by the TC to use VCRs almost identical to TWMs. What TWM did was heed the TCs advice and get their fleet back in order.
Why not name the operator who was banned after one VOSA bad report then, because I cannot remember one, no harm in naming them if they have now ceased.
Quote from: Steveminor on July 08, 2013, 06:34:57 AM
Not made yourself look like a plonker at all Winston I mean if you don't know how you supposed to find out without asking.
Cheers Steve ;)
Because said operator has set up again in a different area under a new name, so it would be unfair to name drop as he now has a good reputation & would have had before if he had been given the chance to put things right. If I see you out & about I will tell you face to face but not on open forum mate.
This is a very interesting thread, with many sensible comments.
I've never worked in the bus business so my opinions won't count for much compared to the others. However, may I put forward two points.
- I agree that large operators are extremely unlikely to be put out of business, but they are much more likely to suffer reputational damage. Some punishments major operators have been given (e.g. Arriva at Derby having to provide free evening rides on one route) are very unlikely to be meted out to small operators. There have also been times where the Traffic Commissioner has given time for a new business to take over from a sinking small operator.
- As far as competing bus services are concerned, frequency is very important. In the theoretical example that Steveminor gave of a 51/451 combination, such a service would have to be frequent enough to be perceived to be useful. A half-hourly service wouldn't work, as joe public would almost certainly decide to stick with two turn-up-and-go services and change than wait for a through bus.
Justin, repputational damage is not really a factor for large encumbentd as most of the time there is very little option for passengers than to catch their service even if they think they aren't reputable. Plus any large encumbent is mainly seen as the bad guy by the passengers who will always want a better company. Look at Redditch, people complained about First saying they weren't public friendly buses off time yadda yadda yadda. Diamond as the competitor were seen as a much better company better service more reliable etc. now as soon as First are out & Diamond are the large encumbent they are suffering the same fate as First did. So a large encumbent is seldom seen as reputable so how can you ruin their reputation. Sure you can within the industry but that means little in the real world.
I will agree that any new service would have to have a viable frequency to attract passengers but that will then increase costs therefore requiring even more passengers to make it viable. It's a very tricky balancing act. Obviously an hourly service isn't going to attract passengers but a 10 minute service is probably going to lose so much money initially that if tried by a smaller operator they would probably end up going bust. It also depends on the frequency of the routes you are going up against I.e if the 51 was every 30 mins & the 451 was every 20 mins then an hourly service would stand a better chance.
On balance you need to use a maximum of 4 buses I believe to keep the costs low enough to sustain the route in its early stages. If it proves successful then you can slowly ramp it up by adding 2 buses at a time until you reach the routes saturation point.
A routes saturation point is a very interesting point as every route has one in essence it's where a certain frequency will help increase passenger numbers who will see the bus as a viable alternative to their car. But if you increase the frequency too much then you are just spreading the passengers over more buses making it less efficient. Examples are the 37 with NX & diamond both ramping up the service against each other then they both over saturated the route & that meant only one thing Diamond had to withdraw as they were losing too much money. Ok they tried reducing the amount of buses they were using but NX were very clever to replace every Diamond that left the route with one of theirs keeping the route over saturated. When Diamond left then all NX had to do was sit back & reap the benefits of the extra patronage for themselves. The 50 is another route that is now over saturated with TGB running every 10 mins it is really hurting operators pockets & I believe Diamond will be the losers there too. Now the 71 is different as NX & Claribels had a sort of stalemate with neither adding any buses to the route for some time. Then BAM Sunny place 6 buses onto the route, however this increased the amount of passengers using the service to the point where in the peaks you can see all 3 operators nose to tail all with a good load but if eithe Claribels NX or Sunny miss a bus then you'll find the next bus struggle to carry the load. Having said that I think another 3 buses added to the route would probably over saturate it.
Quote from: Steveminor on July 07, 2013, 10:50:59 PM
If the encumbent runs their own bus stations any competitor loses out when they either can't get in or are allocated a stand well away from where any intending passenger is likely to be or as was the case in Worcester competitor can't get to the stand because thd encumbent who runs the bus station has blocked the stands with their buses.
So you are saying that the 'encumbent' who spends money maintaining the bus station/drivers rest room etc should roll over and let any cowboy in who decides he wants to compete against them???? As a driver for this 'encumbent' who witnessed this particular situation FIRST hand, no blocking of the stand took place as we run to timetables unless you want to be sacked. If the competitor runs a bus 1 minute in front of an another company on a route that is often delayed that is the reason why the stand got so congested eg it wasn't unusual to see 3 or 4 buses running around Dines Green together if they got delayed.
Also, if this competitor was so beneficial for passengers why did the council replace them so quickly on the subsidised routes 31a/c, 37, 39, 362,363,382, 423 and all the late city routes? Further, companies such as Astons, LMS and WCC use the bus station without problems so this was not the issue here.
In some threads above there has been a hypothetical example quoted of a route travelling along 51 route B'ham to Scott Arms and then as 5 (451) Scott Arms to West Brom. Didn't Little Red Bus operate that exact route as B551?
Quote from: fleetline6477 on July 08, 2013, 07:44:48 PM
In some threads above there has been a hypothetical example quoted of a route travelling along 51 route B'ham to Scott Arms and then as 5 (451) Scott Arms to West Brom. Didn't Little Red Bus operate that exact route as B551?
Although not to West Bromwich, watch the next round of service registrations from 1/9/13
QuoteAlthough not to West Bromwich, watch the next round of service registrations from 1/9/13
I know your not aloud to tell us because of various reasons but sounds like intresting times ahead, and for the crack, I'm gonna say an extension/new route to hampstead, just as its the only place down that way past scott send i can imagine would be practical to turn a bus route :P
Quote from: danny on July 08, 2013, 09:23:38 PM
QuoteAlthough not to West Bromwich, watch the next round of service registrations from 1/9/13
I know your not aloud to tell us because of various reasons but sounds like intresting times ahead, and for the crack, I'm gonna say an extension/new route to hampstead, just as its the only place down that way past scott send i can imagine would be practical to turn a bus route :P
Wasn't there a suggestion at the time of the North B'ham review of a limited stop service to the Scott Arms then along the Queslett Road? Maybe it could go all the way to Pheasey - it could do with a Limited Stop service to Birmingham ;)
On bloxwich-wolverhampton corridor
Coastal liner have started running 560
So thats 560, 19 against 89 on a 30 min frequency.
Quote from: lynx1103 on July 13, 2013, 08:27:18 PM
On bloxwich-wolverhampton corridor
Coastal liner have started running 560
So thats 560, 19 against 89 on a 30 min frequency.
Plus after Ashmore Park (Lichfield Road/Peacock.Ave) yo have the 59.and 69 anyway