Comp on Bham routes since dereg. Which corridors have benefitted the most?

[winston]

Steve, I'd guess some the biggest problems facing smaller operators are the costs of fuel & insurances

Although Claribels didn't have the best of starts as you say, they have come on leaps & bounds over the last few years and have survived & generally stuck to the same routes form day one and built a loyal following. I can't imagine there is anything major that they could be picked up for, they seem to now be a well run company with an impressive modern fleet which includes the associated Birmingham internal Coaches fleet.

You do tend find your generally just a number within the big firms and I've found there is them & us culture despite you all working for the same company

[Steveminor]

The biggest problem the smaller operators face is the TC. If a small operator screws up the TC can quite easily put them off the road without effecting the public TOO much. Now when a large firm I.e NX Arriva or First even to a certain extent Rotala is called up before the TC then all he can really do is issue a fine as, well imagine what chaos there would be if NXWM were suddenly unable to run a bus.
So in that respect the smaller you are the more careful you have to be & on a much tighter budget that isn't easy.
People say about Sunny Travel or Sandwell Travel or GRS cutting mileage (even Claribels do) but as long as it is recorded & documented  & as long as its to try & keep a vehicle to schedule then the TC prefers this to buses just running on route but continually off time.

[Gareth]

I don't know the full ins and outs, but WMT had dealings with the Traffic commissioner in the early to mid 90s. The state of the fleet at that time was very tatty. If you think today's fleet is bad, you should have seen it then. I don't remember it being that bad, but when you see photos of that period, the standards look awful. Old buses running in multiple liveries, some running with bare panels and others undercoat etc. I've heard that the TC ordered the whole fleet to be MOT'd within 3 months. Any truth in that. Standards picked up again from about 1995 and into 1996 when WM Buses were sold to National Express.

[PM]

I started out with Claribels when they first started out in the buses back when they were using old Ford coaches & having to fuel up with whatever money they had taken (that's why occasionally you would see the Tiger Doyens of the little caetano on service (ford didnt have enough fuel as it hadn't taken enough money. Back then Claribels were seen as a complete joke.
That's why I get defensive over some of the operators people slate on here as some of them show good promise just a slight cash flow problem at present, but they DO want to do things right.

Yeah Winston I find the smaller companies appreciate you more, even an NX inspector (or 2) has said they are just treated as a number rather than a person.

I would love to work for one of these smaller operators but I would be interested to know Steve if, in your experience, you still think that smaller independants will be able to survive in the future with higher costs, perhaps less passengers and more allegiance to National Express. is it harder to compete now than before or about the same? Just interested to hear

[winston]

I don't know the full ins and outs, but WMT had dealings with the Traffic commissioner in the early to mid 90s. The state of the fleet at that time was very tatty. If you think today's fleet is bad, you should have seen it then. I don't remember it being that bad, but when you see photos of that period, the standards look awful. Old buses running in multiple liveries, some running with bare panels and others undercoat etc. I've heard that the TC ordered the whole fleet to be MOT'd within 3 months. Any truth in that. Standards picked up again from about 1995 and into 1996 when WM Buses were sold to National Express.

Gareth, yes that does ring bells with me. I think WMT had serious issues with its maintenance procedures/set-up at the time

[Steveminor]

Gareth & Winston, that is my point exactly WMT were ordered to re MOT their entire fleet within 3 months this gave Centro time to get a plan ready just in case. But how many smaller operators were put off the road immediately for maintenance issues that in my opinion at least we're not quite as bad as WMT.
Peter, I think we are already seeing a change in the way smaller operators run their business. Look at Select who have gone for Staffordshire contract work to help pay the bills or the way Sandwell Travel have invented their own route so they don't have to compete head to head with anyone.
Even Diamond have dropped a lot of their head to head competition routes in favour of their own routes & tendered work.
We are also now seeing more in fighting between smaller companies I.e Greenbus v diamond 50 GRS v Diamond 16 Sunny Travel v Claribels 71E the thought process there is to take the loyal cash payers off the other small company rather than NX who have the daysavers & Travelcards to protect them. I will stick my neck out & say that we will lose at least one operator before the year is out there are one or two who are really struggling now. But we all know what this game is like & I know of at least one new company who have just purchased 5 buses & are now looking for a route to begin operating. I won't say Amy companies name or give any bus registrations but will say it is a full low floor start up with you've guessed it Darts.

[winston]

Interesting stuff Steve.

I still think Diamond could have been a much bigger/stringer force in the West Midlands, when they first purchased Go West Midlands they had a good network of core commercial routes mainly in competition with NX, they invested quite heavily in new buses in the early years of Rotala ownership & introduced various 'Trent' derived branding's, Red Diamond even tried to take on First on Worcester. Obviously the economic downturn has had some effect, but I just can't help but feel that Diamond is just plodding along, as well as NXWM 'turning up the heat' on competing commercial routes they now have GRS & Green Bus to contend with competing against them for the few cash paying passengers that are left and they don't seem to be doing a lot to try & combat it. Diamond appear happier to just back off & retreat and withdraw from any services where the going get tougher, after all 'you get out what you put in'. With the pledges of large numbers of new buses by NX and further improvements in the existing fleet, service delivery & quality, I can see this only exaggerating the problem & adding further pressure on Diamonds remaining commercial routes.

I think smaller operators should carve a niche market for themselves to gain a loyal local following; they could do this by creating completely new routes offering new links/journey opportunities but reduce the financial risks by taking in parts of busy corridors currently operated by NX. Effectively the new route would become a variant complementing a core NX routes that ultimately go to different final destinations. As I see it, by taking in some of a busy established corridor they may take some passengers off the likes of NX that are only travelling part of the route, but it would potentially attract less attention or response from NX. I believe this would be of more benefit to existing bus users/potentially attracting new bus users over direct copies and having corridors heavily over bussed. Ludlows & Hansons were both successful in establishing brand new routes from scratch.

Let's hope the new entrant isn't Scott Dunn's Yourbus, he may give NX are harder time up against a fleet of brand new Citaros. Incidentally, I see Yourbus is backing off competing against Trent's Red Arrow but is starting up further new services and also taking delivery of a further 9 new Merc Citaros

[PM]

Gareth & Winston, that is my point exactly WMT were ordered to re MOT their entire fleet within 3 months this gave Centro time to get a plan ready just in case. But how many smaller operators were put off the road immediately for maintenance issues that in my opinion at least we're not quite as bad as WMT.
Peter, I think we are already seeing a change in the way smaller operators run their business. Look at Select who have gone for Staffordshire contract work to help pay the bills or the way Sandwell Travel have invented their own route so they don't have to compete head to head with anyone.
Even Diamond have dropped a lot of their head to head competition routes in favour of their own routes & tendered work.
We are also now seeing more in fighting between smaller companies I.e Greenbus v diamond 50 GRS v Diamond 16 Sunny Travel v Claribels 71E the thought process there is to take the loyal cash payers off the other small company rather than NX who have the daysavers & Travelcards to protect them. I will stick my neck out & say that we will lose at least one operator before the year is out there are one or two who are really struggling now. But we all know what this game is like & I know of at least one new company who have just purchased 5 buses & are now looking for a route to begin operating. I won't say Amy companies name or give any bus registrations but will say it is a full low floor start up with you've guessed it Darts.

Really interesting stuff Steve and really interesting that we might see a new entrant to the WM bus scene soon-adds a bit of variety. Clearly competition is still possible and certain operators seem to be doing ok

[D10]

Regarding any new entrants, the latest N & P shows two potential new operators:

DTS who have applied for a licence for up to 6 vehicles, and North Birmingham Travel who have been granted a licence:

D T S LTD
Director(s): BALKAR SINGH.
PD1121581 SN
8 ERNEST ROAD SMETHWICK B67 7LP
Operating Centre: 2 HARVILLS IND ESTATE, HAWTHORN ,
WEST BROMWICH B70 0UH
Authorisation:6 Vehicle(s).
Transport Manager(s): SUBHASH GOHEL

NORTH BIRMINGHAM TRAVEL LIMITED
Director(s): JAMES PIKE.
(2174)
147 WADDINGTON AVENUE, GREAT BARR , BIRMINGHAM B43 5JD
Operating Centre: CONCRETE DEVELOPMENTS (GREAT BARR) LTD, UNIT 5, BALTIMORE ROAD BIRMINGHAM B42 1DD
Authorisation:10 Vehicle(s).
Transport Manager(s): JAMES FREDERICK PIKE

[Steveminor]

Your bus is the stronger company now thanks to some of the top people moving across from Diamond. I believe the gentleman behind Diamonds route branding is there as well now so that could explain the disserperance of the branded buses as he was the one insistant on keeping branded buses on their routes. It is no suprise to me that the Dunns are putting everything into Your Bus after all they own that 100% where as they are only share holders in Rotala.
It shows you the way Diamond is heading when their top covert inspector is laid off to cut costs no doubt. Very short sighted as he was VERY good at his job.
As for the new entrant they could be on a head to head competative service or it could be a slight variation of across several NX routes, it all depends on how the figures add up but if the latter happens would be very interesting.

[PM]

Regarding any new entrants, the latest N & P shows two potential new operators:

DTS who have applied for a licence for up to 6 vehicles, and North Birmingham Travel who have been granted a licence:

D T S LTD
Director(s): BALKAR SINGH.
PD1121581 SN
8 ERNEST ROAD SMETHWICK B67 7LP
Operating Centre: 2 HARVILLS IND ESTATE, HAWTHORN ,
WEST BROMWICH B70 0UH
Authorisation:6 Vehicle(s).
Transport Manager(s): SUBHASH GOHEL

NORTH BIRMINGHAM TRAVEL LIMITED
Director(s): JAMES PIKE.
(2174)
147 WADDINGTON AVENUE, GREAT BARR , BIRMINGHAM B43 5JD
Operating Centre: CONCRETE DEVELOPMENTS (GREAT BARR) LTD, UNIT 5, BALTIMORE ROAD BIRMINGHAM B42 1DD
Authorisation:10 Vehicle(s).
Transport Manager(s): JAMES FREDERICK PIKE

Really hope that these companies are not only interesting to us but are good companies for the public too. More competition can only be a good thing and its good to see that the true spirit of deregulation is still alive and well. Guess we wont know for a while which routes will be operated

[PM]

If you type in the address of North Birmingham Travel on street view and zoom in, you get that that is already the registered address of North Birmingham Travel Coach Hire ltd so clearly branching out

[Tony]

Gareth & Winston, that is my point exactly WMT were ordered to re MOT their entire fleet within 3 months this gave Centro time to get a plan ready just in case. But how many smaller operators were put off the road immediately for maintenance issues that in my opinion at least we're not quite as bad as WMT.

None! not one small operator has been put off the road for bad maintenance when Vosa have arrived and found faults. What they were put off the road for was failing to address the situation and being caught out again or a combination of bad maintenance and other problems

[Tony]

Regarding any new entrants, the latest N & P shows two potential new operators:

DTS who have applied for a licence for up to 6 vehicles, and North Birmingham Travel who have been granted a licence:

D T S LTD
Director(s): BALKAR SINGH.
PD1121581 SN
8 ERNEST ROAD SMETHWICK B67 7LP
Operating Centre: 2 HARVILLS IND ESTATE, HAWTHORN ,
WEST BROMWICH B70 0UH
Authorisation:6 Vehicle(s).
Transport Manager(s): SUBHASH GOHEL

NORTH BIRMINGHAM TRAVEL LIMITED
Director(s): JAMES PIKE.
(2174)
147 WADDINGTON AVENUE, GREAT BARR , BIRMINGHAM B43 5JD
Operating Centre: CONCRETE DEVELOPMENTS (GREAT BARR) LTD, UNIT 5, BALTIMORE ROAD BIRMINGHAM B42 1DD
Authorisation:10 Vehicle(s).
Transport Manager(s): JAMES FREDERICK PIKE

Certainly not North Birmingham. Mr Pike is quite happy earning a living doing what he is doing  with his minibuses and coaches, all he is doing is changing to a limited company.

I've no idea who Mr Singh is, but Mr Gohel was involved in SMG International, another coach operator that didn't manage to last very long

[winston]

Your bus is the stronger company now thanks to some of the top people moving across from Diamond. I believe the gentleman behind Diamonds route branding is there as well now so that could explain the disserperance of the branded buses as he was the one insistant on keeping branded buses on their routes. It is no suprise to me that the Dunns are putting everything into Your Bus after all they own that 100% where as they are only share holders in Rotala.
It shows you the way Diamond is heading when their top covert inspector is laid off to cut costs no doubt. Very short sighted as he was VERY good at his job.
As for the new entrant they could be on a head to head competative service or it could be a slight variation of across several NX routes, it all depends on how the figures add up but if the latter happens would be very interesting.

I'd already clocked that Scott Dunn had took most of Diamonds senior management team with him, but I gather that some of them came with him in the first place. I think the gentleman behind Diamonds branding initially left to persue some other opportunity, but obviously has since joined Scott's team. I wonder if one day the Dunn's may increase their stake in Rotala so they have more say in how the business is run, they only own just over 4.5% at present. The biggest shareholder in Rotala Plc is John Gunn and he is 70 and could be looking the retire at anytime? I think Diamond are on a slippery slope, if they loose the First Redditch business and it has to be sold to another party I think they will struggle. If the Redditch sale gets approved without any major restrictions it may be the part of the business that helps Diamond to invest in the West Midlands.

I would admire a new entrant for doing the latter & providing new links rather than a direct copy going head to head.

North Birmingham Travel is a mininbus/coach operator
http://www.northbirminghamtravel.co.uk/contactus.php

So you'd be looking at D.T.S Ltd