WCML

[danny]

Hi guys ok i really dont understand this bidding willing and losing stuff soo please educate me? Will first have gain the virgin fleet ie pendilino and voygers or are they owned by branson and theirfore first will have to oparate their own trains, first time a shakeups happened for it to catch my attention lol

[Isle of Stroma]

Hi guys ok i really dont understand this bidding willing and losing stuff soo please educate me? Will first have gain the virgin fleet ie pendilino and voygers or are they owned by branson and theirfore first will have to oparate their own trains, first time a shakeups happened for it to catch my attention lol

Don't worry Danny, you're one of the millions (well, at least 150k) that doesn't know the score!

Basically, pretty much everything that Virgin operate is leased, they also (mis)manage several stations as part of the deal. All this should transfer to First from December.

Before we go any further, don't get duped into believing by the great bearded one that they paid for the west coast upgrade. That was funded by the uk taxpayer (naturally, grinning Richard isn't one of those....)

What has happened is that the current franchise held by Virgin is coming to the end of the contract & a new franchising period has been 'let'. In much the same way that a tendered bus route works, various interested parties submit tenders to operate. Where it differs is that the bidding process is much extended. The initial bids are inspected & some bidders are taken on to the next stage, the 'winning' bid becoming the 'preferred' bid where all the dots are dotted etc.

What has happened here i think is that Virgin submitted a bid based on making 'x' amount of money. Unfortunately for them, First have bid a lower amount based on future traffic predictions. This is nothing new, there are other franchises that have gone t!ts up due to dubious bids (NX East Coast etc).

Branson has thus spat out the dummy & presumably had his expert legal team working around the clock looking for any loophole which they can use to derail the process. Surprise surprise, such a legal challenge was announced yesterday at the 11th hour.

It's only to be expected really. The winning bidder stands to make millions out of it!

[tank90]

First gave a higher bid than Virgin which is why they won. But they did the same with Greater Western and handed it back early due to not being able to pay the money to the government, but this was in the franchise extension period. Also First group are selling some of there UK Bus operations, or in some cases closing the garge and losing £2.8 million.

[Isle of Stroma]

First gave a higher bid than Virgin which is why they won. But they did the same with Greater Western and handed it back early due to not being able to pay the money to the government, but this was in the franchise extension period. Also First group are selling some of there UK Bus operations, or in some cases closing the garge and losing £2.8 million.

First haven't handed GWML back early at all. They honoured the basic contract period & declined an extension option to operate for a period after that.

I've got to admit this WCML refranchising is causing me anguish as i'm not used to defending First!

[danny]

Thanks for the info mate think i get whats going on now, will be very intresting to see what unfolds within the next couple of weeks

[windy miller]

Has anyone ever thought about who actually OWNS around two thirds of the worlds railways? I heard it may be a Canadian multi Billionaire by the name of Bob Urquart...? Anyone ? :-\

[windy miller]

Tony, your comment on (quote) 'Tilting voyagers' not having extra pantographs??'..surely none of the VOYAGERS have pantographs anyway....or are they being adapted for 25Kv ? ::)

[Tony]

Tony, your comment on (quote) 'Tilting voyagers' not having extra pantographs??'..surely none of the VOYAGERS have pantographs anyway....or are they being adapted for 25Kv ? ::)

There is a plan to give Cross Country's voyagers, both the non-tilting 220s and the 221s (cross country have disabled the tilt in their 221s, Virgin haven't) an extra carriage with a pantograph and a transformer that can drive the traction motors in the existing carriages. This solves two problems. It gives every unit an extra carriage of seats which helps with Cross-Country's overcrowding. It also means when running under the wires they would be on electric traction only with all 4/5 diesel engines idle.

[Tony]

What is also interesting is what was in the declined Virgin bid. While First have promised 11 new 6-car electric trains and to keep the diesel Voyagers. Virgin's bid including replacing all the Voyagers with 21 new 'mini-pendolinos'. It would also have ordered a fleet of new diesel locomotives to replace the class 57s. These would have been fully compatable with Pendolinos including working in push-pull mode so services to Shrewsbury etc would still have run if Virgin had won, but would have only been diesel where needed. whereas First still intends using diesel all the way from Wolverhampton to London.

Now one problem with this is that if the DfT accepted Virgin's bid it would have shown the silliness of their new pet IEP bi-mode project and shown that the best solution would have been an all electric fleet of high speed trains with diesel locomotives to take them away from wires

[Tony]

Whole process has been stopped. Virgin Trains was correct bidding process was flawed. DfT have admiited to one almighty cock up.

Crawling apology has been issued see http://www.dft.gov.uk/news/press-releases/dft-press-20121003a

[danny]

Just seen this on daybreak, doe this mean virgin will keep the WCML or will their have to be a brand new bidding process.

[Tony]

Just seen this on daybreak, doe this mean virgin will keep the WCML or will their have to be a brand new bidding process.

One of two things will now happen.
1) Virgin Trains will be asked to continue running the service on a 'Management Contract'. Only a couple of weeks ago the Government said this wouldn't happen, but is now looking the most likely.

2) Directly Operated Railways Ltd will take over the operation in December. This is the Government owned company that are still running East Coast after NX handed the keys back.

Incidently a by-product of this is that the Great Western franchise will now not be ready to change when First's contract runs out. Now First turned down an extension on there initial agreement but look likely to be offered a short term agreement to carry on running the line. For First to accept this I suspect it will be on better terms that what they have already turned down so more costs to taxpayer due to civil service incompetence.

[Tomjusttom]

What a bloody farce

[broma1k]

Apparently Virgin are being asked to carry on running the West Coast franchise for 9 months to 2 years depending on which report you read.

[winston]

Bet Mr Branson's happy with that outcome, he also now knows what First Group would be prepared to bid to win it when the tendering fiasco is finally sorted & both companies can re-tender for it.

Has anyone seen any reports anywhere that First Group would have still won the franchise even if the Dft calculations/figures had been correct?