BusTimes.org - general discussion

[gka472l]

I'm sure most of you on here are aware of the bustimes website with the map showing many vehicles all over the UK....

The West Midlands bit is here https://bustimes.org/vehicles#11/52.5194/-1.9054

My question is, with NXWM having been showing some routes in Wolverhampton, Coventry and a couple of Walsall/Perry Barr routes (plus Dundee is on too), is there any chance the rest of the fleet will appear at some point?

Cheers

[BusMan Greg]

Apparently next month all buses across the UK will have to track! Is this true?

[Pat]

Apparently next month all buses across the UK will have to track! Is this true?

Where did you hear that?  Why would buses have to track? 

[Lukeeee2018]

Where did you hear that?  Why would buses have to track?

This may be what he is referring to this.. https://twitter.com/busopendata/status/1285498366596710400

[Stu]

Apparently next month all buses across the UK will have to track! Is this true?

Where did you hear that?  Why would buses have to track? 

From the now defunct Traveline South East website:

The Bus Services Act of 2017 means that, by the end of 2020, it will be the bus operators' responsibility to make available timetable, fares and real-time location data. The Government expects "the market" (bus operators and internet information providers) to use the latest technological developments to give travel planning information to the travelling public.

I don't think it is the case that 'all buses across the UK will have to track' from any legal standpoint, but operators are expected to be able to offer this capability via data feeds into open APIs for third-parties to be able to utilise.

[Tony]

From the now defunct Traveline South East website:

I don't think it is the case that 'all buses across the UK will have to track' from any legal standpoint, but operators are expected to be able to offer this capability via data feeds into open APIs for third-parties to be able to utilise.

which won't include fleetnumbers

[Pat]

From the now defunct Traveline South East website:

I don't think it is the case that 'all buses across the UK will have to track' from any legal standpoint, but operators are expected to be able to offer this capability via data feeds into open APIs for third-parties to be able to utilise.

So operators have to publish their own timetable info etc themselves, basically what Traveline did?

[Tony]

So operators have to publish their own timetable info etc themselves, basically what Traveline did?

Not at all. They just have to supply open data

[Kevin]

which won't include fleetnumbers

To be honest, that detail is only relevant for enthusiasts. For the vast majority of users it *could* finally provide a useful replacement to the maps that most local authorities seem to have deemed unnecessary

[JoNi]

Not at all. They just have to supply open data

Tony is right, operators are only providing data, the onus is on web developers to create apps such as bustimes and the London Vehicle Finder, who chose to have the unenviable task of presenting the data in way that they feel meets users needs.
On Bustimes each vehicle gains an alias when it is tracked for the first time, some NX Coventry electric buses were tracked for the first time in October gaining numbers around 250,000, meaning more than a quarter of a million buses have been tracked, no small achievement!

[ross4122]

which won't include fleetnumbers

As per the Public Service Vehicles (Open Data) (England) Regulations 2020, the vehicle identifier will need to be provided - whether this is a fleet number or not is a different story.

However, if NXWM, or any other operator chooses to anonymise this, I know bustimes does allow for edits so that the correct fleet number shows on the site. An example of this would be East Coast Buses B8RLE vehicles which show as 3051-3065 in the TfE data feed but are actually 10051-10065 in reality (and show as this on bustimes).

I'm not sure what the benefit in anonymising or not providing fleet numbers is though, especially as (almost? I've not checked) every other operator who provides AVL location data to the BODS provides them. It's not as if it's commercially-sensitive information either given that the fleet number is visible on every bus in multiple locations.

It may actually come to the surprise of some that bustimes is not primarily focused at enthusiasts - but "ordinary" bus users have found it useful to know which bus to expect, its livery, whether it's a double decker, etc.

[Tony]

As per the Public Service Vehicles (Open Data) (England) Regulations 2020, the vehicle identifier will need to be provided - whether this is a fleet number or not is a different story.

However, if NXWM, or any other operator chooses to anonymise this, I know bustimes does allow for edits so that the correct fleet number shows on the site. An example of this would be East Coast Buses B8RLE vehicles which show as 3051-3065 in the TfE data feed but are actually 10051-10065 in reality (and show as this on bustimes).

I'm not sure what the benefit in anonymising or not providing fleet numbers is though, especially as (almost? I've not checked) every other operator who provides AVL location data to the BODS provides them. It's not as if it's commercially-sensitive information either given that the fleet number is visible on every bus in multiple locations.

It may actually come to the surprise of some that bustimes is not primarily focused at enthusiasts - but "ordinary" bus users have found it useful to know which bus to expect, its livery, whether it's a double decker, etc.

I would imagine the East Coast buses thing is because one of their internal systems cannot deal with 5 digit numbers

[ross4122]

I would imagine the East Coast buses thing is because one of their internal systems cannot deal with 5 digit numbers

I think that's correct - it's something along those lines anyway!

[JoNi]

I think that's correct - it's something along those lines anyway!

All Lothian/East Coast bus tickets show six digit Bus number eg 010063.
The well established Lothian App has always shown the bus number as a maximum of a four figure number for East Coast buses, North Berwick Gemini 20001 is 2001 on the App but bus times shows five figure 20001. Recently reinstated 2942 is shown as 942 on App and Bustimes, there's no logic! Its a nice to have but I use Bustimes to easily access timetables.

The future of "selling" buses has to involve open data on Apps such as Google Maps, however the use of meaningless destinations such as Kirby Corner Interchange that are little help to someone unfamiliar with buses in Coventry trying to get to Warwick University should be more of a concern.

Open Data what could be simpler, however it was implemented when Chris Grayling headed the transport department!

[Stuharris 6360]

The following is on LVFs facebook page.

"Well it seems that regrettably the work we are currently undertaking has been made public. I'm annoyed at the way this has occurred as it was so unnecessary and we would like to have made more progress before going public.
I would have to stress that we are still at a very early stage and apart from vehicle data and the fact that it shows vehicles and the routes they are on there is nothing else. The data only updates every 10 mins so not exactly useful at the moment.
To give a bit of background, the DfT is implementing a system to provide real time tracking of all public service vehicles on registered bus routes in England. It is not due to go live until January 2021 however we have become an early adopter of data. Currently there are over 7.700 vehicles that have been identified. This is probably about a half of the total we might expect. We have identified a number of problems with the feed, the most critical of which is that most of the data stops working at 5pm each evening and restarts at 7am.... The biggest problem for us is that the real time data does no more than identify the vehicle, the time and a location in Latitude/Longitude coordinates. No next stop, no predictions etc. The data is wonderful if you are going to plot vehicles on a map eg bustimes.org, but not very helpful if you want a service that looks like LVF. To transition from what we have to what we want means we need to hold timetable and route info. We haven't even started importing that data. Not only does it need to be imported for every route in England but we need to create a process that updates the information whenever there is a route or timetable change.
At this early stage we still need to QA a lot of the data we have, and we still have a large amount of work to do before we can present a working system. We would ask you all show a large amount of patience. The last thing we need at the moment is queries regarding any data you may see which would only distract us from achieving the end goal. There will be a period shortly after the initial release of the new system where we will encourage feedback especially of branding/advert buses and other special liveries."