Blackheath Bus Services

[richardjones210368]

From The Repaint Thread:
"But how anyone can think a 'Mellor Marrow Bone Massager' is an improvement on anything defeats me!! You try travelling on one when you're over 65 with shopping bags - you might change your view.

From where I'm standing Diamond is a bit of a minor operator in the West Midlands. They don't appear to have any double deckers in the area mostly making do with lightweight mini/midi bus stuff. The modern day equivalent of a Bedford OB operation of the 50s in my view."




Using the Diamond Bus 208 and 24 I cannot recall a Mellor being allocated the route when Rotala held the contract so do not understand your point as I am comparing like for like as short wheelbased Darts were used on the route please explain?

[Jack]

Mellor's did the 208 right till it went to NX...

[richardjones210368]

Mellor's did the 208 right till it went to NX...

The regular allocation were Short Wheelbased Darts and Solos I was a relief driver for Midland Red West in the early 90s on the 209 on  a Sunday driving a Merc Mini 609 so ejoyed the very last journey and the regular Diamond driver I knew well was stunned to discover I used to drive the route.. Mellors were not regulars on the 208 in its final months as I used it regulary to visit someone in Rowley Hospital before carrying on to Dudley.and never used one remember I am a big fan of the Mellors and would have welcomed then on the route if it hadnt been withdrawn. The 208/209/238/239 had ran for all of my 51 years as it passed one of my Aunties houses and I was quite sad to see it withdrawn.

[don]

To be honest, I don't want to argue with this you about this as I was really talking very generically. Specifically, NXWM 829 is not a short wheelbase Dart - it's an E200 and not even a short wheelbased one. NXWM have short wheelbased E200s as well, but 829 is not one.

In a generic sense you guys who like Diamond are not comparing apples and apples. NXWM is a much bigger operator running a large amount of commercial services - the fact they have a fleet of over 1000 double deckers and over 500 single deckers, mostly under 10 yrs old should tell you that. In comparison Diamond operate some competitive and some tendered routes but is a much smaller operation in the West Midlands. My main beef with this is that some of their commercial operation is not about running a full service but running some journeys where they feel they can cream off passengers and make some money.

However taste is a personal thing and I'm willing to accept some people like the under dog, maybe prefer blue buses etc etc and although I think they do a great job generally NXWM do make odd cock ups or mistakes. So it's not really worth arguing about taste, and if you want to sing the praises of Diamond there are Rotala threads where that can be done! And PS as a user I hate minibuses - they were a definite product of some of the worst aspects of Tory Policies in the 1980s - funny the coincidental reappearance eh?!!! It usually means there is not enough money being put into public services and engineering/economic aspects over ride customer service - on the rails the equivalent was/is the Pacer - how long before Pacer the second appears - oh it already has on Marston Vale..... 😏

[BK63 YWP]

To be honest, I don't want to argue about you with this as I was really talking very generically. Specifically, NXWM 829 is not a short wheelbase Dart - it's an E200 and not even a short wheelbased one. NXWM have short wheelbased E200s as well, but 829 is not one.

In a generic sense you guys who like Diamond are not comparing apples and apples. NXWM is a much bigger operator running a large amount of commercial services - the fact they have a fleet of over 1000 double deckers and over 500 single deckers, mostly under 10 yrs old should tell you that. In comparison Diamond operate some competitive and some tendered routes but is a much smaller operation in the West Midlands. My main beef with this is that some of their commercial operation is not about running a full service but running some journeys where they feel they can cream off passengers and make some money.

However taste is a personal thing and I'm willing to accept some people like the under dog, maybe prefer blue buses etc etc and although I think they do a great job generally NXWM do make odd cock ups or mistakes. So it's not really worth arguing about taste, and if you want to sing the praises of Diamond there are Rotala threads where that can be done! And PS as a user I hate minibuses - they were a definite product of some of the worst aspects of Tory Policies in the 1980s - funny the coincidental reappearance eh?!!! It usually means there is not enough money being put into public services and engineering/economic aspects over ride customer service - on the rails the equivalent was/is the Pacer - how long before Pacer the second appears - oh it already has on Marston Vale..... 😏

I thought the class 139 is the pacers second coming 😂 but you hit the nail on the head there @don

[don]

@SL 16 YPN I'd forgotten about the class 139 - similar to minibuses as well! The class 230, if you haven't experienced one between Bedford and Bletchley, are quite something - but heavily recycled London Underground trains.

To be fair the Pacers aren't that bad - just not good if you experience one which is completely full of people and luggage, such as around Manchester or say, Newton Abbott to Torquay.

@richardjones210368, I definitely also miss those old Midland Red routes around the Black Country and would dearly love to experience the D2, S56 etc etc. However travel patterns have changed so much, not least with the loss of so much manufacturing in the early 80s, I guess it's really nostalgia.

Perhaps we could persuade museums like Wythall and Aldridge to bring some relevant buses over and have a running day - I for one would love to hear the Leyland engined Fleetline, 6311, howling up the hill from Blackheath to the church, or up Portway Road. Some D9s and the S17 would be good as well. A VR maybe (Dudley-Wolverhampton).

[richardjones210368]

@SL 16 YPN I'd forgotten about the class 139 - similar to minibuses as well! The class 230, if you haven't experienced one between Bedford and Bletchley, are quite something - but heavily recycled London Underground trains.

To be fair the Pacers aren't that bad - just not good if you experience one which is completely full of people and luggage, such as around Manchester or say, Newton Abbott to Torquay.

@richardjones210368, I definitely also miss those old Midland Red routes around the Black Country and would dearly love to experience the D2, S56 etc etc. However travel patterns have changed so much, not least with the loss of so much manufacturing in the early 80s, I guess it's really nostalgia.

Perhaps we could persuade museums like Wythall and Aldridge to bring some relevant buses over and have a running day - I for one would love to hear the Leyland engined Fleetline, 6311, howling up the hill from Blackheath to the church, or up Portway Road. Some D9s and the S17 would be good as well. A VR maybe (Dudley-Wolverhampton).

To be honest @don we do not need a running day in Blackheath on many Sundays someone has an old Fleetline or National or Ailsa parked up by Sainsburys as many come with their mates to enjoy the traditional pubs in the town. You often see a WMPTE Fleetline being thrashed past St Giles Church on a ghostly 140 to be honest on a regular basis its surprising how many positive comments you get waiting for the 4H. In regard to your other comments I personally do not rate West Midlands Travel Limited as a competent operator that is fit for purpose in serving the needs of its customers all I see is a PLC using a Cash Cow to increase its dividends. The Company is only interested in own profits has no social conscious and treats the passenger authority with disdain and contempt. I fully welcome the increased regulation planned to be announced on March 11th which will finally clip the wings of company that operates solely for its own self serving needs. I support Diamond Bus Ltd simply because as a Sandwell resident I am supporting a local business, a local employer and a company that actually listens to its passengers together with offering highly competitive fares to one of the poorest areas of the country. The 2018 changes to bus services in Blackheath by West Midlands Travel are testimant  to a company operating in an oligopoly market which is of no benefit to anyone but the shareholders of National Express PLC. With regard to the Mellors I applaud them as they offer an low cost alternative to the council tax payer when procuring socially necessary services.such as the 231 I use regulary I much perfer them them and the Solos to the awfull E200s used by other operators in Blackheath which seem to frequently be reported as broken down on this forum.

[don]

I think a Dudley running day would be great!

On your objections to NXWM, do Diamond publish passenger satisfaction results on a regular basis for their West Midlands operation? I know NXWM do, and this has indicated, for instance an ongoing perceived improvement in the standard of vehicles. NXWM have gone out of their way to bring it's fleet to Euro 6 standard - that doesn't accord with your description. NXWM have a base in Sandwell as well, you know!! Not sure if that alone is bigger than Diamond's Tividale Depot, allocation wise.

When/if wider regulation occurs, I am hopeful that TfWM won't water down the spec of services so that operators who don't provide double deckers currently aren't excused from doing so in the future at the expense of passengers on routes like the 16 in Birmingham, which benefit from a regular service of high quality double deck capacity. They should keep passenger needs at the forefront of this.

Again harking back to the 80s, I lived in a town for a while where the local (Municipal) operator was replacing double deckers with single deckers - fine in the off peak - rubbish in the peak as many had to stand or got left behind on the pavement. The operator really shouldn't have been doing this as the level of service deteriorated significantly - the buses were also less manouverable so were subject to greater delays owing to parking (and standee single deckers were proven to be useless, passenger need wise, in Birmingham on the 36 as long ago as 1967-68 - they may be OK on Red Arrow 507 but elsewhere? Not really. On the 36 they were replaced ultimately by Jumbo Fleetlines 3967-79).

So let's hope TfWM get this right. As you will guess, I don't share your view of NXWM.

I am a fairly regular user of London's regulated buses - whilst many standards are very good (the oldest buses I regularly encounter are now 08 Trident/E400s) they seemingly don't require buses to have heaters for use in the winter. The buses provided in the Midlands are really of a similar and in many cases better (Platinum) standard.

[richardjones210368]

I think a Dudley running day would be great!

On your objections to NXWM, do Diamond publish passenger satisfaction results on a regular basis for their West Midlands operation? I know NXWM do, and this has indicated, for instance an ongoing perceived improvement in the standard of vehicles. NXWM have gone out of their way to bring it's fleet to Euro 6 standard - that doesn't accord with your description. NXWM have a base in Sandwell as well, you know!! Not sure if that alone is bigger than Diamond's Tividale Depot, allocation wise.

When/if wider regulation occurs, I am hopeful that TfWM won't water down the spec of services so that operators who don't provide double deckers currently aren't excused from doing so in the future at the expense of passengers on routes like the 16 in Birmingham, which benefit from a regular service of high quality double deck capacity. They should keep passenger needs at the forefront of this.

Again harking back to the 80s, I lived in a town for a while where the local (Municipal) operator was replacing double deckers with single deckers - fine in the off peak - rubbish in the peak as many had to stand or got left behind on the pavement. The operator really shouldn't have been doing this as the level of service deteriorated significantly - the buses were also less manouverable so were subject to greater delays owing to parking (and standee single deckers were proven to be useless, passenger need wise, in Birmingham on the 36 as long ago as 1967-68 - they may be OK on Red Arrow 507 but elsewhere? Not really. On the 36 they were replaced ultimately by Jumbo Fleetlines 3967-79).

So let's hope TfWM get this right. As you will guess, I don't share your view of NXWM.

I am a fairly regular user of London's regulated buses - whilst many standards are very good (the oldest buses I regularly encounter are now 08 Trident/E400s) they seemingly don't require buses to have heaters for use in the winter. The buses provided in the Midlands are really of a similar and in many cases better (Platinum) standard.

In Response:

1. To be honest I think Platnuim buses are the stupist concept ever in the West Midlands the concept is totally unsuitable for the urban routes they are they dark filthy hit evey bump in the road have seats like sitting on a comode and fèel as though you are in a travelling prison cell while the rest of WMT stock seems to be tired Tridents, Scanias falling apart and E200s that are poorly maintained giving the overall apperance of a PLC using a company as a cashcow with a total disregard to its customers.

2. Rotalas corporate head quarters are in Sandwell therefore as a Sandwell resident they are the only locally based bus company.

3. All operators passenger satisfaction levels are reviewed at the Bus Champion Meetings

4. It is interesting even a Conservative government elected on a large majority sees the need to place greater controls of the activities on bus operators thru  authorities such as the WMCA.

5. The London Model is fundamently flawed and only exists due to the huge level of subsidy to support it.

[richardjones210368]

I would like to refer all posters who do not agree with my comments about West Midlands Travel Ltd and its operations in Blackheath to page 52 of todays Birmingham Mail ; the readers letter page - Talkback - and the lead letter writers comments about thier experience of using the company on the 97 or will this letter writer also be attacked for thier honest views of West Midlands Travel Limited too part of a PLC that is currently in breach of its legal obligations under The Companies Act 2006 for failing to file a CS01 for one of its companies and whose Directors will ultimatly face prosecution if the matter is not rectified posters question why the company is not fit and proper!

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00775806

[don]

In Response:

1. To be honest I think Platnuim buses are the stupist concept ever in the West Midlands the concept is totally unsuitable for the urban routes they are they dark filthy hit evey bump in the road have seats like sitting on a comode and fèel as though you are in a travelling prison cell while the rest of WMT stock seems to be tired Tridents, Scanias falling apart and E200s that are poorly maintained giving the overall apperance of a PLC using a company as a cashcow with a total disregard to its customers.
I doubt a majority of passengers would agree with your comments about Platinum buses - and 'knackered Tridents' aren't a majority of NXWM buses. The fact Rotala does not operate double deckers in West Midlands suggests they are not fit to operate many of the services, which is why I would worry if they were invited to operate many of them

2. Rotalas corporate head quarters are in Sandwell therefore as a Sandwell resident they are the only locally based bus company.
Is their corporate HQ the ex Birmingham Coach Company depot at Tividale?

3. All operators passenger satisfaction levels are reviewed at the Bus Champion Meetings
Are Rotala's better than NXWM's

4. It is interesting even a Conservative government elected on a large majority sees the need to place greater controls of the activities on bus operators thru  authorities such as the WMCA.
I think they recognise the value of public transport, unlike previous Tory Governments - however whether they provide the money to operate Regulation satisfactorily is a moot point - any failure will be blamed on TfWM

5. The London Model is fundamently flawed and only exists due to the huge level of subsidy to support it.
It's certainly the best and most reliable and most integrated system I've encountered - I'd like to hear the alternative and also wonder under who's analysis it's been proven as flawed

I have annotated against your responses. You do seem to have a 'downer' on NXWM.

[richardjones210368]

I have annotated against your responses. You do seem to have a 'downer' on NXWM.

In.Response:
1. I have only seen Tridents all week on the 13A that are scruffy old and not fit to be on a main trunk route to the UKs 2nd City. I cannot see why anyone who uses Plantnum could ever like such monsterous hulks compered with Stagecoach Gold. When were out for an evening on a Daysaver5 my car driving mates share the same opinion they laugh at them and have nicknamed them zombie buses and they are the very folk we should be getting out of thier cars and onto buses. If required as Rotala operates double deckers in Redditch & Bolton why would Tividale be a problem if required.

3. I suggest you make Freedom of Information request to the WMCA .

4. The Buses Act is a sound foundation to build further regulation on through QEPs & EPs

5. Having worked in Whitehall I have never seen so much money spent on a pathetic public service I used daily late buses overcrowded buses buses broken down massive fare evision stabbings and muggings and more fires than diamond constantly hardly a model to suggest as such after using it for 5 years it is frankly laughable. I personally would always use the Paris model of RAPT .The London.version is a joke.

[danny]

Response to point 1 of this gentleman's response...

If Im really honest as long as a bus turns up I couldn't care less if its a volvo, E400MMC, old trident, or eclipse so long as it gets me from A-Z... My local route the 12/12A has a cheeky bit of everything on it, and I find it adds to the routes charm. Never know what's going to turn up... Reminds me of being a child in the 90s and it being a toss up between a metrobus or lynx on the 120... happy days, so long as a bus turns up, does the job and gets me where I need to go I couldn't give a hoot what turns up... And I think looking at it from a commuter's point of view I think most are of the same opinion, how many regular none enthusiasts know what a trident is, or a enviro 200.

[Mike K]

The Platinum concept is really no different to those brands operated by pretty much every other major operator up and down the country: E400MMCs with high backed seating, Wi-Fi and USB ports. The only real differences are the interior colour schemes. That sort of spec is now pretty much the norm on all new buses. Really can't see what the issue is. There a far more important things in life to moan about than modern grey buses.

[richardjones210368]

The Platinum concept is really no different to those brands operated by pretty much every other major operator up and down the country: E400MMCs with high backed seating, Wi-Fi and USB ports. The only real differences are the interior colour schemes. That sort of spec is now pretty much the norm on all new buses. Really can't see what the issue is. There a far more important things in life to moan about than modern grey buses.

They are so depressing and awfull Andrew Lincon could do with slaying the lot of them along with his zombies and how you can compere them to the Stagecoach Gold Scannias on the X80 From Torquay to Plymouth is just flabergasting .