Gold Corridors

[PM]

Why would rotala lose out if they don't upgrade. I remember petes travel & red arrow express purposely competing with the line 33 just to make the point that "all this bus priority quality partnership is a waste of money".
They pulled off when it became obvious that centro & WM were just ignoring the figures that were being presented to them.
The fact is they were cheaper & so even though the buses were by far inferior to WM they were attracting a large amount of passengers.
What do passengers want.
They want to know they don't have to wait too long for a bus that's going where they want & that it isn't going to cost that much when it arrives. In winter yes they do want a warm bus but everything else is just trimmings and is unnecessary.  The recent success of Sunny Travel vs Clarinets on the 71 should prove that. Clarinets have much better buses & drivers yet Sunny have on the whole more passengers as they are more frequent have have those cheap day & weekly tickets.

No both examples you use get passengers by racing in front of other operators to get to stops first and cash payers will nearly always just get on the first bus. What tat operators don't do is increase passenger numbers overall like operators like Claribels have done on the 94.

The only thing that will attract people out of their cars is quality, that includes timekeeping, driving standards and vehicles. NX gets plenty of critisism for the quality of its services, the state of the vehicles, and timekeeping and is trying to do something about both at the moment, although the timekeeping bit is more difficult. They are investing record amounts in new vehicles and talking direct to councils about pinch spots on routes to try an improve traffic flows. They are helping finance some safer travel police officers and also financing a Birmingham CEO to help with parking enforcements on bus routes. I didn't see either of the opertors you mention doing any of those things

You just said Claribels had upped the quality and passenger numbers?! Now you're saying tiny operators should be financing police officers, CEO's, parking enforcement?! I also don't see how NX helping with parking enforcement and helping fund parts of the travel police is useful-it convinces local authorities that they don't need to spend the money. Then what happens, management changes, accountants do a cost analysis and conclude it's negative, it gets scrapped and never replaced.

My issue with this is it claims to be new ideas. We've seen it all before. Superline 301 partnership, with buses of the same age as when that was launched until recently popping up. Then Line 33, new infrastructure, branding etc. All of which is decayed, dilapidated and the taxpayer will have to contribute when that needs another relaunch/partnership in a few years time. That was then being run with unrefurbed geminis, admittedly then improved by e400's.

We saw the bendibus-bus lanes installed and scrapped...

I just hate the fact that in the transport industry all we ever hear is the latest relaunch of this and that and money is just being wasted left right and centre to make headlines and there's less improvements to the basics eg Merry Hill and Dudley bus stations.

We get bold new ideas all the time. They last about 6 months, get watered down, costs get slashed and things end up as before. That's why I like operators like Claribels-they don't relaunch, have new groundbreaking partnerships, they just stick to the basics. Good buses, good fares, good drivers-that has been shown to grow ridership.

[Tony]

Why would rotala lose out if they don't upgrade. I remember petes travel & red arrow express purposely competing with the line 33 just to make the point that "all this bus priority quality partnership is a waste of money".
They pulled off when it became obvious that centro & WM were just ignoring the figures that were being presented to them.
The fact is they were cheaper & so even though the buses were by far inferior to WM they were attracting a large amount of passengers.
What do passengers want.
They want to know they don't have to wait too long for a bus that's going where they want & that it isn't going to cost that much when it arrives. In winter yes they do want a warm bus but everything else is just trimmings and is unnecessary.  The recent success of Sunny Travel vs Clarinets on the 71 should prove that. Clarinets have much better buses & drivers yet Sunny have on the whole more passengers as they are more frequent have have those cheap day & weekly tickets.

No both examples you use get passengers by racing in front of other operators to get to stops first and cash payers will nearly always just get on the first bus. What tat operators don't do is increase passenger numbers overall like operators like Claribels have done on the 94.

The only thing that will attract people out of their cars is quality, that includes timekeeping, driving standards and vehicles. NX gets plenty of critisism for the quality of its services, the state of the vehicles, and timekeeping and is trying to do something about both at the moment, although the timekeeping bit is more difficult. They are investing record amounts in new vehicles and talking direct to councils about pinch spots on routes to try an improve traffic flows. They are helping finance some safer travel police officers and also financing a Birmingham CEO to help with parking enforcements on bus routes. I didn't see either of the opertors you mention doing any of those things

You just said Claribels had upped the quality and passenger numbers?! Now you're saying tiny operators should be financing police officers, CEO's, parking enforcement?! I also don't see how NX helping with parking enforcement and helping fund parts of the travel police is useful-it convinces local authorities that they don't need to spend the money. Then what happens, management changes, accountants do a cost analysis and conclude it's negative, it gets scrapped and never replaced.

My issue with this is it claims to be new ideas. We've seen it all before. Superline 301 partnership, with buses of the same age as when that was launched until recently popping up. Then Line 33, new infrastructure, branding etc. All of which is decayed, dilapidated and the taxpayer will have to contribute when that needs another relaunch/partnership in a few years time. That was then being run with unrefurbed geminis, admittedly then improved by e400's.

We saw the bendibus-bus lanes installed and scrapped...

I just hate the fact that in the transport industry all we ever hear is the latest relaunch of this and that and money is just being wasted left right and centre to make headlines and there's less improvements to the basics eg Merry Hill and Dudley bus stations.

We get bold new ideas all the time. They last about 6 months, get watered down, costs get slashed and things end up as before. That's why I like operators like Claribels-they don't relaunch, have new groundbreaking partnerships, they just stick to the basics. Good buses, good fares, good drivers-that has been shown to grow ridership.

You using the 33 is a very poor example
Line 33 gets brand new B10Ls, when they get worn out, gets Brand New Geminis, when they get tired gets brand new E400s, isn't that what any good operator should do?

As for your comments about Claribels, I said by running quality vehicles they have increased numbers on the 94 corridor, it is the tat I abhor that doesn't know what a timetable is, doesn't have any intention of increasing passenger numbers, just has lunatic drivers trying to get in front of someone else. All that does is encourage the other operator to do exactly the same, and yes on some routes TWM/NX have been guilty of drivers doing that, but far less now.

What is so hard about registering times with VOSA and making a reasonable effort to run buses on those times?

Go and have a look in Bradford Place at Walsall and watch Sandwell Travel. Even when there buses are on the stand on their registered departure time they don't leave until the next bus of another operator pulls up behind them sometimes deliberately 7/8 minutes late, and that is not NX, their stop is shared with Thandi & Arriva.

There is a photo somewhere on my website that I cannot be bothered to find at the moment of a Sunny Travel driver overtaking an NX bus in an extremely dangerous manouver around Old Square in Birmingham City Centre, who then hit the kerb and just missed pedestrians, there is no place for idiots like that in the bus industry

[PM]

My point is on the 33 that the geminis being turned out by 2011 looked awful-the standard wasn't maintained. It's pointless to relaunch a route if you just let standards slip afterwards eg dirty seats/ingrained dirt/mismatched panels.

Fair enough-I can see you meant the operators on the 33 not Claribels.

It's pointless drivers sitting behind-ultimately getting ahead speeds passengers' journeys up and competition usually lowers fares which makes the journey seem more justifiable for poorer cash payers.

Sandwell though seem to do okay and have increased frequencies and lowered fares on that corridor.

I agree about dangerous driving and never even suggested that was okay.

My main gripe isn't whether these small operators are good quality/improve the overall picture or not. My main gripe is the money being wasted. Here's another example. Late 2006 next bus info installed on BR. Saw it working on and off, fair enough. 7/8 years on, all replaced with brand new equipment on the technology corridor with glass shelters-blank canvasses for vandals basically.

Weeks/months on they're full of litter, glass is etched and next stop info says please refer to timetables. Which could be an instruction on a bit of paper taped to the shelter. What on earth was the point of wasting money on all that rubbish?! How are they useful on a corridor NX run every 5 minutes on anyway?! The whole point is it's turn up and go so you don't have to look at timetables.

I just think:

Who paid for this?

What was the point?

Why was it yet another great initiative on the paper of a politician that then decayed and was never used?

Why not, in times of austerity, instead of wasting money on ludicrous grand plans, help operators struggling with BSOG cuts and Concessionary and Funding cuts?

[Steveminor]

I agree totally with you diamond dart.
The money being spent on these grand schemes is just wasted. If it actually increased patronage why do they get watered down so quickly. I mean the east birmingham solihull partnership between operators & centro called for timetables to be cemented for at least 12 months with no alterations to instill passenger confidence. Well it was about 3 months before routes & timetables began to be changed. All buses to be washed prior to service, well that lasted until the weather turned & for cleaners to be at chelmsley wood to clean every bus every trip, that never happened.  Why? Well it just wouldn't increase passenger revenue enough to cover costs. As for NXWM not racing their competitors nowadays well I would certainly disagree with that. ALL operators are guilty of it.  I recall an email that was circulated to all operators on 71 route regarding an incident when an elderly passenger was thrown to the front of a bus & hospitalised when a driver was allegedly driving so fast he had to take serious avoiding action to prevent hitting the car in front & no it wasn't a sunny travel bus.
As I have said if passengers don't have to wait long for a bus & it isn't too expensive then they will get on. If you had one route that had a bus every 10 mins & charged £1.00 & another that had environmentally friendly buses with leather seats wifi free tea & coffee dedicated drivers that were trained by the royal staff but only ran every 30 mins & charged £2.00 then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out which route the passengers would prefer.
For the sake of argument both routes with the same company.
Long story short spend the money keeping buses on routes that need them rather than money on all singing dancing buses on already well used profitable routes

[winston]

You just said Claribels had upped the quality and passenger numbers?! Now you're saying tiny operators should be financing police officers, CEO's, parking enforcement?! I also don't see how NX helping with parking enforcement and helping fund parts of the travel police is useful-it convinces local authorities that they don't need to spend the money. Then what happens, management changes, accountants do a cost analysis and conclude it's negative, it gets scrapped and never replaced.

My issue with this is it claims to be new ideas. We've seen it all before. Superline 301 partnership, with buses of the same age as when that was launched until recently popping up. Then Line 33, new infrastructure, branding etc. All of which is decayed, dilapidated and the taxpayer will have to contribute when that needs another relaunch/partnership in a few years time. That was then being run with unrefurbed geminis, admittedly then improved by e400's.

We saw the bendibus-bus lanes installed and scrapped...

I just hate the fact that in the transport industry all we ever hear is the latest relaunch of this and that and money is just being wasted left right and centre to make headlines and there's less improvements to the basics eg Merry Hill and Dudley bus stations.

We get bold new ideas all the time. They last about 6 months, get watered down, costs get slashed and things end up as before. That's why I like operators like Claribels-they don't relaunch, have new groundbreaking partnerships, they just stick to the basics. Good buses, good fares, good drivers-that has been shown to grow ridership.

You just said Claribels had upped the quality and passenger numbers?! Now you're saying tiny operators should be financing police officers, CEO's, parking enforcement?! I also don't see how NX helping with parking enforcement and helping fund parts of the travel police is useful-it convinces local authorities that they don't need to spend the money. Then what happens, management changes, accountants do a cost analysis and conclude it's negative, it gets scrapped and never replaced.

My issue with this is it claims to be new ideas. We've seen it all before. Superline 301 partnership, with buses of the same age as when that was launched until recently popping up. Then Line 33, new infrastructure, branding etc. All of which is decayed, dilapidated and the taxpayer will have to contribute when that needs another relaunch/partnership in a few years time. That was then being run with unrefurbed geminis, admittedly then improved by e400's.

We saw the bendibus-bus lanes installed and scrapped...

I just hate the fact that in the transport industry all we ever hear is the latest relaunch of this and that and money is just being wasted left right and centre to make headlines and there's less improvements to the basics eg Merry Hill and Dudley bus stations.

We get bold new ideas all the time. They last about 6 months, get watered down, costs get slashed and things end up as before. That's why I like operators like Claribels-they don't relaunch, have new groundbreaking partnerships, they just stick to the basics. Good buses, good fares, good drivers-that has been shown to grow ridership.

NX obviously think it is well worth investing the money in financing new Safer Travel officers, as it directly benefit the safety of it's passengers & staff, acts as a deterrent/potentially reduces the amount of crime & vandalism on the companies buses, increases revenue through regular revenue checks and removes out of date passes. By investing in dedicated parking officers they can target problem pinch points which delay the companies buses and potentially could result in lost trips.... If the current climate NX/Centro would have slim to no chance of gaining the funding for these additional resources specifically aimed at improving buses services, so fair play to them for swallowing the cost & expanding the provisions.

The ideas aren't new, only the brands are, the investment & re-launch is designed to promote growth and aimed at reducing car journeys. Previous attempts at showcasing a route with similar measures to the 'GoldCorridors' center around one specific route and their introductions were few & far between. What is different in this instance is that it is being introduced on a much large scale and will benefit many, I agree they need to keep the emphasis on keeping those  corridors 'Gold' still years after implementation, unlike in some previous instances.... the scrapping of bus lanes on the Tyburn Rd was a council decision.

No one can improve Merry Hill bus station without the previous backing of Westfield & now intu, Centro don't own the bus station, therefore their hands are tied. I agree the bus station needs to be dragged in to the 21st centuary with full enclosed glass shelters & walkways, it needs expanding, but needs extra land to do this & car parking will have to be sacrificed, which isn't something the shopping centres owners are too keen on or spending on public transport infrastructure improvements. Isn't Dudley bus station due an upgrade in the not too distant future, it was due to be re-developed with the planned Midland Metro extension to Merry Hill, but that doesn't seem very likely now.

Claribels are an exception to the rule when compared with most smaller operators, but prove that smaller companies can also provide higher standards of quality, new or newer vehicles. Claribels typically buy 2 new buses annually for general fleet replacement. I would like to see other smaller operators match the example set by Claribels

*edit* - Central Buses also operate an ultra modern fleet, have been established far less than others, can put brand new high spec buses out on new competing routes such as the Xpress55 and operate new/nearly new buses on various tendered routes

I agree totally with you diamond dart.
The money being spent on these grand schemes is just wasted. If it actually increased patronage why do they get watered down so quickly. I mean the east birmingham solihull partnership between operators & centro called for timetables to be cemented for at least 12 months with no alterations to instill passenger confidence. Well it was about 3 months before routes & timetables began to be changed. All buses to be washed prior to service, well that lasted until the weather turned & for cleaners to be at chelmsley wood to clean every bus every trip, that never happened.  Why? Well it just wouldn't increase passenger revenue enough to cover costs. As for NXWM not racing their competitors nowadays well I would certainly disagree with that. ALL operators are guilty of it.  I recall an email that was circulated to all operators on 71 route regarding an incident when an elderly passenger was thrown to the front of a bus & hospitalised when a driver was allegedly driving so fast he had to take serious avoiding action to prevent hitting the car in front & no it wasn't a sunny travel bus.
As I have said if passengers don't have to wait long for a bus & it isn't too expensive then they will get on. If you had one route that had a bus every 10 mins & charged £1.00 & another that had environmentally friendly buses with leather seats wifi free tea & coffee dedicated drivers that were trained by the royal staff but only ran every 30 mins & charged £2.00 then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out which route the passengers would prefer.
For the sake of argument both routes with the same company.
Long story short spend the money keeping buses on routes that need them rather than money on all singing dancing buses on already well used profitable routes

With the £1 operator, you've also got to expect that you will get what you pay for....

[Steveminor]

But which would you prefer a 10 min wait & £1 fare or 30 min wait & £2  fare on a more comfortable bus? £

[andy]

Oh this is going to be a long post so my apologies. We can't keep requoting each other when the posts are this long so you'll have to bear with me here....

Diamond Dart (Peter I seem to recall?) you have hit the nail on the head when it comes to my thoughts on all this. Wave after wave of relaunches, investments, infrastructure, network reviews etc that get millions chucked at them to extend the career of some politician or 'public servant' in the loosest sense of the word. They just pick a route or corridor and blitz it, then a couple of years later it's all forgotten. Remember the relaunch of the 377?? Take a look back at the all singing and dancing publicity that got when it was thrown together....mind boggling and patronising rubbish about women travelling on their own and safety....revisit it now and what have you got? Walsall's finest battered Tridents or whatever they have available with none of the stuff that all that money was supposedly going to support. Just a bus and a driver and a mildly reliable timetable. Exactly what there was before basically. I am only offering this as an example.

It's alright talking about NX not taking part in dirty tricks anymore. Well that's not surprising is it? They don't need to when they have been allowed to monopolise the travelcard market due to Centro's unwillingness to bother to do anything to seriously compete with it. Passengers have their travelcard and wait for their bus it's not rocket science.

I'm afraid I don't see this next phase as being any better, chiefly because Centro are at the helm. We talk about Claribels and yes they are a successful, quality independent operator. But don't forget they got their foothold in the early days when you could afford it. It's on those foundations they can trade and compete today with regular fleet investment.

Anybody who wanted to start up such an operation today would be hopelesssly knackered due to the closed shop that is NX and Centro. You get less Fuel rebate than ever before, buses are more expensive than ever before, to maintain and to buy / lease, revenue is lower than ever before due to the Travelcard, concessionary schemes and payments are harder to subscribe to and get paid by than ever before, NX frequencies are higher than ever before (funded it seems now by Centro themselves under this latest scheme) I could go on and on and on. How can a newcomer other than the established Souters, DB, First, Go Ahead or the like get in? Hell even they can't round here! It's the Emporer's New Clothes for Centro, not realising (or rather not caring) that they are getting hoodwinked on a regular basis by a board of directors.

And hence the NX and Centro love in will continue, effectively your council tax subsidising a private monopoly to replace its fleet and then they have the cheek to expect us to be grateful for it? Come to think of it, sounds just like the rail industry!

Rant over for now.....

[winston]

Andy,

Totally agree with your example of the showcasing of the 377, the 451 (now 5) still has its Presidents years on, most have been repainted, re-trimmed & branded, but the 1 has lost its added status from the same era.

You can argue that Diamond's origins & foundations also date back to the early days which predominated comprise The Birmingham Coach Company, Ludlows & to a lessor degree Pete's Travel. Both BCC & Ludlows started at deregulation, however Diamond doesn't operate the ultra modern fleet when compared with the likes of Claribel's, even on the long established commercial routes.

How is exactly is Council Tax being used to finance NX fleet replacement? It's coming from NX's own Cap Ex. Centro's part in the partnership is to provide infrastructure/information improvements only

But which would you prefer a 10 min wait & £1 fare or 30 min wait & £2  fare on a more comfortable bus? £

If I just turned up at the bus stop on spec (in this weather), I'd just go for whichever bus  pulled up first, if I was going on a longer journey I'd more than likely go for the more comfortable bus & pay a bit more, I certainly wouldn't stand around waiting 30 mins for one, I'd just ensure I was at the bus stop just before it was due.

[andy]

How is exactly is Council Tax being used to finance NX fleet replacement? It's coming from NX's own Cap Ex. Centro's part in the partnership is to provide infrastructure/information improvements only

Hi Winston. 

The point I was making (hence the word 'effectively') is that NX can make the investment because Centro are offering them years of partnership and infrastructure improvements (including free publicity and marketing) that effectively protect the revenue stream. My point is , and has always been, that Centro have done absolutely nothing to encourage other players. I know your feelings on this and we are unlikely to ever agree because I see the whole thing as a shocking stitch up, and will very probably never be persuaded otherwise I'm afraid.... But the debate will go on!

[monkeyjoe]

Long thread but it' interesting to read that Claribels are the only operator that have bothered to do anything with the Washwood Heath rd corridor, particularly since Lea Hall went,View still the same.

[Tony]

It's pointless drivers sitting behind-ultimately getting ahead speeds passengers' journeys up and competition usually lowers fares which makes the journey seem more justifiable for poorer cash payers.

Sandwell though seem to do okay and have increased frequencies and lowered fares on that corridor.

My main gripe isn't whether these small operators are good quality/improve the overall picture or not. My main gripe is the money being wasted. Here's another example. Late 2006 next bus info installed on BR. Saw it working on and off, fair enough. 7/8 years on, all replaced with brand new equipment on the technology corridor with glass shelters-blank canvasses for vandals basically.

Weeks/months on they're full of litter, glass is etched and next stop info says please refer to timetables. Which could be an instruction on a bit of paper taped to the shelter. What on earth was the point of wasting money on all that rubbish?! How are they useful on a corridor NX run every 5 minutes on anyway?! The whole point is it's turn up and go so you don't have to look at timetables.

I just think:

Who paid for this?

What was the point?

Why was it yet another great initiative on the paper of a politician that then decayed and was never used?

Why not, in times of austerity, instead of wasting money on ludicrous grand plans, help operators struggling with BSOG cuts and Concessionary and Funding cuts?

So you say racing other buses is OK? (it is illegal and dangerous) If you want to be in front of that bus register in front of it and run in front.

Sandwell do OK by deliberately not running on their registered timetables, but that is OK for supporters of small opertors whether they are good or bad.

I have never seen Central Buses using either of these tactics but still seem to be doing alright.

When was the last time you looked at the shelters on the Bristol Road? Broken glass is removed same day it is reported Realtime works 99% of the time. Shelters are cleaned (both literally and swept out regularly). So realtime is useless on a frequent corridor? Not every journey is every 5 minutes. If you are stood in Selly Oak needing the toilet waiting to get back to Longbridge at 9pm on a night wouldn't you like to know how many minutes away your bus was?

The West Midlands is a long way from a perfect bus service, but you attitude is just don't improve anything which is the attitude fom 30 years ago when bus use was dropping faster than a stone. At least now it is growing again

[winston]

How is exactly is Council Tax being used to finance NX fleet replacement? It's coming from NX's own Cap Ex. Centro's part in the partnership is to provide infrastructure/information improvements only

Hi Winston. 

The point I was making (hence the word 'effectively') is that NX can make the investment because Centro are offering them years of partnership and infrastructure improvements (including free publicity and marketing) that effectively protect the revenue stream. My point is , and has always been, that Centro have done absolutely nothing to encourage other players. I know your feelings on this and we are unlikely to ever agree because I see the whole thing as a shocking stitch up, and will very probably never be persuaded otherwise I'm afraid.... But the debate will go on!

Hi Andy,

I see where you're coming from, but doesn't that go to prove that partnerships are benefiting passengers through increased investment in new buses? Instead of the typical 125 new buses per year as in 2011 etc, the WM looks now set to get nearer double that, all with environmentally friendly Euro 6 engines etc. Arriva are active in the West Midlands, Go-Ahead I had high hopes for but soon came & went & couldn't even spare GWM a dedicated MD, Stagecoach only want WMT/TWM/NXWM or nothing. Rotala I believe have been involved with some of the Network Reviews then others have chosen not to get so involved with.

All these routes that will benefit from improved infrastructure, new buses etc there is still nothing at all stopping other operators registering competing services with cheaper fares, special return tickets etc

[arrifirststage]

The multitude of arguments above merely prove my often repeated point.
NEVER,EVER let PR wonks anywhere near anything..........all PR spin and meaningless jargon........much like modern day politicians.

[monkeyjoe]

Arriva, now seem to be doing a much better job on the Sutton lines than NXWM, following behind a bit like the Washwood Heath Corridor.