Scotrail Award

[winston]

I was hoping nx would have won it, but there again that's the way the cookie crumbles!!

And me, it would have given their UK Rail division a much needed boost and potentially would of allowed them to repay their debt quicker due to increased cash flows

as someone who experienced scotrail under nx previously , i for one am very glad they didnt get it!! - First are better than NX Scotrail were.

You're forgetting that NX is under completely different management & effectively a different company. Plus they also had former First Group Scotrail MD (Mary Grant) on board the bid team/was going to run if for NX if successful.

[Bob]

Tony LM have done and continue to provide a terrible service sometimes on the chase line.but they've got no competition!  If I don't like what l.m. do I can't swap to another operator cos there isnt one!!! Thats why rail privatisation is a bad thing.  A couple of saturdays ago on the 1901 from cannock which was really busy as it was a sat night no conductor came round and we got to aston and there had been a late villa match. The train was heaving. Not one fare collected. And nobody checking tickets at new st. Can you imagine the lost revenue?  On the other hand if everyone was honest and bought a ticket when they got off ( nobody did) the resultant queues would have meant we'd have missed loads of going out time

[Tony]

Tony LM have done and continue to provide a terrible service sometimes on the chase line.but they've got no competition!  If I don't like what l.m. do I can't swap to another operator cos there isnt one!!! Thats why rail privatisation is a bad thing.  A couple of saturdays ago on the 1901 from cannock which was really busy as it was a sat night no conductor came round and we got to aston and there had been a late villa match. The train was heaving. Not one fare collected. And nobody checking tickets at new st. Can you imagine the lost revenue?  On the other hand if everyone was honest and bought a ticket when they got off ( nobody did) the resultant queues would have meant we'd have missed loads of going out time

So if it was nationalised it would be better because there would be competition?

[Bob]

No my point was it should never have been privatised due to that fact. Weve ended up with a fragmented crap system

[Tony]

No my point was it should never have been privatised due to that fact. Weve ended up with a fragmented crap system

And with BR the chase line had a wonderful service. No direct trains to Birmingham, change at Walsall, 40 year old units that regularly failed. Track with lots of 20mph speed restrictions because it was so bad.
And the worst thing about BR was that government had final say on even more than they did today. Decisions like
You have a 40 year old 3 car train, you want a new one? - here's the money for a two car one
(BRs policy for DMU replacement forced on them by Government)
You want to electrify the East Coast Main Line? - here's the money for a cheap nasty electrification that will fall down every time the wind blows hard
You want a 155mph tilting train, here's £30m, about half what you need, you mean you haven't made it work yet, scrap it and waste that £30m
You want Diesels to replace all those steam engines - go and buy 10 -20 of various types and see which ones work best, haven't you got rid of those dirty steam engines you are still building? (no Mr Government the prototypes haven't arrived yet to test) That doesn't matter just buy loads of all of them however crap they are.

All wonderful things a nice Nationalised BR did, not because BR managers were useless, but because it was nationalised they had to answer to clueless politicians and civil servants. The most annoying thing is the worst parts of a privatised rail network are those things still decided by politicians

[Bob]

I do remember old dmus tony but they were replaced with sprinters while still under public ownership!  The old trains werent used for all that many years!  Plus lots of old trains are still in use in other parts of uk under the privatised era! I take it you didnt like transport in public ownership? Like the PTE'S when they operated an integrated network?

[Bob]

And as taxpayers money is spent by the million on the railways why shouldn't we own them too? Instead of profiteering private firms or worse still foreign state rail companies

[Tony]

I do remember old dmus tony but they were replaced with sprinters while still under public ownership!  The old trains werent used for all that many years!  Plus lots of old trains are still in use in other parts of uk under the privatised era! I take it you didnt like transport in public ownership? Like the PTE'S when they operated an integrated network?

It had its good points, but also a lot of bad. I started work as a 16 year old with West Midlands PTE as a junior wages clerk, one of around 70 wages clerks, who spent about a quarter of their time doing not much at all because all the work was done on certain days of the week. There was plenty of other over staffing as well. Have a look at timetables for bus services in Walsall in 1985 you will see many that were run for operating convenience, not for where passengers were. I grew up in Castle Bromwich my local route was the 194 (now the 94) it ran every 30 minutes at the time, 20 minutes in the peak (hmm wonderful service compared to now). Lots of estates had no buses at all through them (don't worry if people want to catch a bus they will walk up to a mile to the nearest main road attitude).

Integrated transport is brilliant, because of the crap 194 I used to catch a train to Marston Green and get the 165/185 home from the newly built interchange there, superb idea because WMPTE integrated the services and gave people the choice of using it, but do you remember T&WPTE opening the Newcastle Metro? Let's stop all buses crossing the Tyne and force people to change onto the Metro to get into Newcastle. Didn't work, people drove and clogged the roads, soon reversed and the buses were back on the bridges!

You need to get the balance right, the regulation of politicians, combined with the enterprise of private companies. The politicians to make sure the private companies are doing what they say they are going to do, while the private companies have the ideas and the freedom to make passengers to want to use there services

[Tony]

And as taxpayers money is spent by the million on the railways why shouldn't we own them too? Instead of profiteering private firms or worse still foreign state rail companies

As the profit margin on TOC's is about 3% that means that the private companies only have to increase passenger numbers by 3% and the government is better off. As for the millions of taxpayers money spent, have a look at where it goes. The vast majority to Network Rail, and who owns that?

[Bob]

Ok tony. Privatisation is ok in some respects.  In areas where theres been innovation etc. But look at where we both lice now...the service is horrendous ( bus wise I mean) compared with previously. We have a company with a virtual monopoly and as usual ill get slated for saying it, but they dont maintain tgeir buses!  I do not recall west midlands or mrn losing dozens of trips due to decrepit buses. Things have improved a bit with a few new buses but theyre still way way behind other garages. Only cannock could upgrade a route with deckers and have them break down on the first day in service and replaced with a midibus !

[Tony]

Article on the refurbished HSTs mentioned in the article
http://www.railengineer.uk/2017/03/23/scotrails-new-hsts/

[mikestone]

I'm amazed this is going ahead. I would have thougt either CAF or Stadler would have come up with an offer to produce new trains as a run on from other orders.

[The Real 4778]

I'm amazed this is going ahead. I would have thougt either CAF or Stadler would have come up with an offer to produce new trains as a run on from other orders.

Neither CAF or Stadler had any such orders at the time that the ScotRail franchise was bid.  The more likely offering would have been CAF MkV coaches and Class 68s, like Trans Pennine, but clearly HSTs made the cut by having a better business case.

[mikestone]

I realise that but subsequently they could have made the offer. No one really knows how much the toilet and door jobs are going to cost.

[The Real 4778]

No one really knows how much the toilet and door jobs are going to cost.

Potential suppliers provided binding costed proposals for the modifications when the franchise bids were being prepared.  This is the only way that the bidder can build its comparative business cases and write the most compelling one into its bid.