Are First looking to sell off Midland Red West all together?

[tank90]

To me it looks like it. They have already got rid of Evesham Garage, now alotments, then this year both Kidderminster (KR) and Redditch (RH), which only left First with Worcester (WR) and Hereford (HD). Now in the run up to sale First changed the ticket machines in Worcester and Hereford, leaving RH and KR on the older Wyvern Machines and at the same time WCCFS (Worcestershire County Council Fleet Services aka Whoosh) also changed there ticket machines. Now after looking at photos on here a similar pattern is forming, Leicester and Potteries are repainting buses MRW are not there are only a few in New colours and they have been delivered new and only one old Solo has had a repaint.

Like I said I think it is pretty likely First are going to get rid of WR and HD together but, 1 Stagecoach can have Worcester with no problems Hereford it could course a few problems as Stagecoach Gloucester Wyre & Dean and Wales run into Hereford. 2 NX would have no problems at all, but would they want half a network? 3 Whoosh, unlikely but still could if county wanted to. 4 Rotala the most likey to want to buy MRW to go with the other half they already have. 5 EYMS now silly as it sounds it could help Whittles. 6 Arriva now with them running Trains Wales and Hereford Railway Station in there control it could work for them. 7 Go-Ahead they have been around here before and may want to have a go again.

But who ever buys MRW will have to spend money and a fair bit as they didnt want to sell to many of the RH fleet to Diamond so are they going to do the same again, most proberly yes. Will it happen in 2014? If the right offer is made yes, will it be March no its more likely going to June/July time or even September.

And lastly does First have a reason to sell MRW yes, First Midland Red West worked as Four depots due to the fact that they were linked by routes. 143/144/145/146/247/551/550/ linked Redditch with Worcester and Kidderminster then on to Hereford. Since the sale of RH and KR the amount of people using linking routes has dropped ie 144/550/551 as if you fail to get the right ticket you can run the risk of paying £12. First where slow they should have seen if WCC would have aloud them to take on the 350 as this would have given them people traveling from Redditch to Worcester, or even going on a commercial basis thus giving them this market.

Ok so after this essay my point may have gotten lost, but I do think by 2015 FMRW and MRW will be lost for ever.

[StourportSam]

My comments and observations...

• I don't think EYMS have the money to buy any more operations with questionable profitability.
• My impression was that Diamond didn't want the Enviro 300s First had at Redditch, but have since realised they are good buses.
• Woosh looks likely to cease to exist if all of the subsidised bus services are withdrawn. What is clear at least is WCC doesn't want to spend any money on buses at all if it can help it.
• With Connecta, Plusbus and the likes, I can't see there being too many issues with ticketing?
• The simple fact is Kidderminster and to a lesser extent Redditch were losing money and had been for years, so Midland Red West didn't work.

There are lots of possibilities, who knows what may happen!

I cannot say any more, but what I have heard is quite the contrary, and suggests First want to keep what they have left.

[winston]

I personally think First Group screwed up breaking up Wyvern, it isn't a big enough operation to be split in two and many of the links with Kidderminster & Redditch have now been severed making First Wyvern day/week/month tickets less attractive, as certain passengers now have to use two different companies buses to make connections that were both previously both First buses.

The £270k losses that First were making at RH & KR depots is hardly significant at 5%, for me I don't think First wanted to/had the money to invest in those parts of Wyvern to attempt to make them break-even or even profitable. There has always been limited investment in Wyvern and even Worcester which is regarded as a profitable operation has only seen a few used E300's/E200's & ex Jersey Dart SLF/Caetano.

I'd have thought Stagecoach would be interested in both Worcester & Hereford, and if Worcester is as profitable as everyone thinks, I can't see no reason why NX wouldn't be interested as as bolt-on to NXWM as it is a self sufficient operation based within a City with higher frequency routes

First Group should have sold Wyvern as a whole, they would have of achieved a much better asking price / attracted more interest from other suitors had they thrown WR & HD in to pot as well, and would have got more than the paltry £1.5 million for the RH & KR bits

[PM]

I personally think First Group screwed up breaking up Wyvern, it isn't a big enough operation to be split in two and many of the links with Kidderminster & Redditch have now been severed making First Wyvern day/week/month tickets less attractive, as certain passengers now have to use two different companies buses to make connections that were both previously both First buses.

The £270k losses that First were making at RH & KR depots is hardly significant at 5%, for me I don't think First wanted to/had the money to invest in those parts of Wyvern to attempt to make them break-even or even profitable. There has always been limited investment in Wyvern and even Worcester which is regarded as a profitable operation has only seen a few used E300's/E200's & ex Jersey Dart SLF/Caetano.

I'd have thought Stagecoach would be interested in both Worcester & Hereford, and if Worcester is as profitable as everyone thinks, I can't see no reason why NX wouldn't be interested as as bolt-on to NXWM as it is a self sufficient operation based within a City with higher frequency routes

First Group should have sold Wyvern as a whole, they would have of achieved a much better asking price / attracted more interest from other suitors had they thrown WR & HD in to pot as well, and would have got more than the paltry £1.5 million for the RH & KR bits

Splitting up wyvern was a very foolish move I agree but surely if rotala had offered more for wyvern as a whole I think first would have said yes. Clearly first have no interest there at all as every other first subsidary has had a lot more new or upgraded buses and have far more in the new livery. I see redditch kidderminster as one unit and then Hereford separarely as it is a fair distance away. As such I could see worcester anf hereford being sold separately with rotala making a play for worcester as it is clearly a market they were interested in cracking. Stagecoach would no doubt get hereford. I really doubt nx would be interested as if they wrre then they could easily have outbid rotala gor redditch which is closer to the nx area than worcester anyway...

[winston]

I personally think First Group screwed up breaking up Wyvern, it isn't a big enough operation to be split in two and many of the links with Kidderminster & Redditch have now been severed making First Wyvern day/week/month tickets less attractive, as certain passengers now have to use two different companies buses to make connections that were both previously both First buses.

The £270k losses that First were making at RH & KR depots is hardly significant at 5%, for me I don't think First wanted to/had the money to invest in those parts of Wyvern to attempt to make them break-even or even profitable. There has always been limited investment in Wyvern and even Worcester which is regarded as a profitable operation has only seen a few used E300's/E200's & ex Jersey Dart SLF/Caetano.

I'd have thought Stagecoach would be interested in both Worcester & Hereford, and if Worcester is as profitable as everyone thinks, I can't see no reason why NX wouldn't be interested as as bolt-on to NXWM as it is a self sufficient operation based within a City with higher frequency routes

First Group should have sold Wyvern as a whole, they would have of achieved a much better asking price / attracted more interest from other suitors had they thrown WR & HD in to pot as well, and would have got more than the paltry £1.5 million for the RH & KR bits

Splitting up wyvern was a very foolish move I agree but surely if rotala had offered more for wyvern as a whole I think first would have said yes. Clearly first have no interest there at all as every other first subsidary has had a lot more new or upgraded buses and have far more in the new livery. I see redditch kidderminster as one unit and then Hereford separarely as it is a fair distance away. As such I could see worcester anf hereford being sold separately with rotala making a play for worcester as it is clearly a market they were interested in cracking. Stagecoach would no doubt get hereford. I really doubt nx would be interested as if they wrre then they could easily have outbid rotala gor redditch which is closer to the nx area than worcester anyway...

I would think it was fairly certain that First Group received various offers for the subsidiaries that weren't necessarily on the for sale list, other groups new First were under pressure to raise cash and would have tried to cash in on it. When NX were mooted to being close to concluding a deal for RH & KR prior to U-turn on First Group winning the WCML, I'd be very surprised if NX didn't suggest/make an offer to include Worcester or all of Wyvern. Distance from NXWM operating area would probably be more beneficial in being less likely to attract interest from the Oft, Worcester could have been operated as a stand alone unit like Dundee, Worcester already operates in to Birmingham/NXWM operating area with the 144

[PM]

I personally think First Group screwed up breaking up Wyvern, it isn't a big enough operation to be split in two and many of the links with Kidderminster & Redditch have now been severed making First Wyvern day/week/month tickets less attractive, as certain passengers now have to use two different companies buses to make connections that were both previously both First buses.

The £270k losses that First were making at RH & KR depots is hardly significant at 5%, for me I don't think First wanted to/had the money to invest in those parts of Wyvern to attempt to make them break-even or even profitable. There has always been limited investment in Wyvern and even Worcester which is regarded as a profitable operation has only seen a few used E300's/E200's & ex Jersey Dart SLF/Caetano.

I'd have thought Stagecoach would be interested in both Worcester & Hereford, and if Worcester is as profitable as everyone thinks, I can't see no reason why NX wouldn't be interested as as bolt-on to NXWM as it is a self sufficient operation based within a City with higher frequency routes

First Group should have sold Wyvern as a whole, they would have of achieved a much better asking price / attracted more interest from other suitors had they thrown WR & HD in to pot as well, and would have got more than the paltry £1.5 million for the RH & KR bits

Splitting up wyvern was a very foolish move I agree but surely if rotala had offered more for wyvern as a whole I think first would have said yes. Clearly first have no interest there at all as every other first subsidary has had a lot more new or upgraded buses and have far more in the new livery. I see redditch kidderminster as one unit and then Hereford separarely as it is a fair distance away. As such I could see worcester anf hereford being sold separately with rotala making a play for worcester as it is clearly a market they were interested in cracking. Stagecoach would no doubt get hereford. I really doubt nx would be interested as if they wrre then they could easily have outbid rotala gor redditch which is closer to the nx area than worcester anyway...

I would think it was fairly certain that First Group received various offers for the subsidiaries that weren't necessarily on the for sale list, other groups new First were under pressure to raise cash and would have tried to cash in on it. When NX were mooted to being close to concluding a deal for RH & KR prior to U-turn on First Group winning the WCML, I'd be very surprised if NX didn't suggest/make an offer to include Worcester or all of Wyvern. Distance from NXWM operating area would probably be more beneficial in being less likely to attract interest from the Oft, Worcester could have been operated as a stand alone unit like Dundee, Worcester already operates in to Birmingham/NXWM operating area with the 144

That is a good point-I imagine offers must have been put in for other businesses. I just wonder how close nx were to buying redditch and kidderminster and why they didnt and rotala did. If nx had wanted it then they have far more money than rotala to throw about so surely would have got it? Glad they didnt though as diamond worcestershire was rumoured to be close to being closed had the sale not gone through...

[j789]

I cannot see Worcester going for various reasons that I couldn't comment on but if it were to be sold I would think Stagecoach would be the most likely (and us drivers have heard mainly positive things from colleagues who have previously worked for them or who have gone over recently). However, I would think Arriva would also show an interest. NXWM would no doubt have something to say though about either of those two companies purchasing it because of the potential to infiltrate the West Mids area from Worcestershire. As for Rotala I don't think that would happen as I am pretty sure they would find themselves with no drivers if they took over!

[PM]

I cannot see Worcester going for various reasons that I couldn't comment on but if it were to be sold I would think Stagecoach would be the most likely (and us drivers have heard mainly positive things from colleagues who have previously worked for them or who have gone over recently). However, I would think Arriva would also show an interest. NXWM would no doubt have something to say though about either of those two companies purchasing it because of the potential to infiltrate the West Mids area from Worcestershire. As for Rotala I don't think that would happen as I am pretty sure they would find themselves with no drivers if they took over!

No drivers if rotala took over? Why? Some jumped ship when r&k were bought but a few and many drivers at tividale have worked for diamond for ages...

I am sure that the reasons you cannot refer to are the profitability of many Worcester routes which must bring in a bit...

[winston]

I personally think First Group screwed up breaking up Wyvern, it isn't a big enough operation to be split in two and many of the links with Kidderminster & Redditch have now been severed making First Wyvern day/week/month tickets less attractive, as certain passengers now have to use two different companies buses to make connections that were both previously both First buses.

The £270k losses that First were making at RH & KR depots is hardly significant at 5%, for me I don't think First wanted to/had the money to invest in those parts of Wyvern to attempt to make them break-even or even profitable. There has always been limited investment in Wyvern and even Worcester which is regarded as a profitable operation has only seen a few used E300's/E200's & ex Jersey Dart SLF/Caetano.

I'd have thought Stagecoach would be interested in both Worcester & Hereford, and if Worcester is as profitable as everyone thinks, I can't see no reason why NX wouldn't be interested as as bolt-on to NXWM as it is a self sufficient operation based within a City with higher frequency routes

First Group should have sold Wyvern as a whole, they would have of achieved a much better asking price / attracted more interest from other suitors had they thrown WR & HD in to pot as well, and would have got more than the paltry £1.5 million for the RH & KR bits

Splitting up wyvern was a very foolish move I agree but surely if rotala had offered more for wyvern as a whole I think first would have said yes. Clearly first have no interest there at all as every other first subsidary has had a lot more new or upgraded buses and have far more in the new livery. I see redditch kidderminster as one unit and then Hereford separarely as it is a fair distance away. As such I could see worcester anf hereford being sold separately with rotala making a play for worcester as it is clearly a market they were interested in cracking. Stagecoach would no doubt get hereford. I really doubt nx would be interested as if they wrre then they could easily have outbid rotala gor redditch which is closer to the nx area than worcester anyway...

I would think it was fairly certain that First Group received various offers for the subsidiaries that weren't necessarily on the for sale list, other groups new First were under pressure to raise cash and would have tried to cash in on it. When NX were mooted to being close to concluding a deal for RH & KR prior to U-turn on First Group winning the WCML, I'd be very surprised if NX didn't suggest/make an offer to include Worcester or all of Wyvern. Distance from NXWM operating area would probably be more beneficial in being less likely to attract interest from the Oft, Worcester could have been operated as a stand alone unit like Dundee, Worcester already operates in to Birmingham/NXWM operating area with the 144

That is a good point-I imagine offers must have been put in for other businesses. I just wonder how close nx were to buying redditch and kidderminster and why they didnt and rotala did. If nx had wanted it then they have far more money than rotala to throw about so surely would have got it? Glad they didnt though as diamond worcestershire was rumoured to be close to being closed had the sale not gone through...

All the rumours at the time suggested NX were very close to concluding a deal on RH & KR, then First Group were told that Virgin Trains would continue to run WCML until the franchise would be re-bid at somepoint in the future. All then went quiet on the NX deal plus rumours of other agreed deals for First Group disposals, in a number of instances it was suggested that one party walked away, I would have thought that this may have been First Group, to re-consider it's position, the WCML franchises with its turnover / profit was seen as a lifeline for First Group's financial woes in the short to medium term, even thought the final payments near the end of the franchise were seen as unrealistic. The winning of that franchise was given in one had & taken away with another, which left First Group well and truly in the sh*t! Hence their eventual cash call via the deeply discounted rights issue

[j789]

I am sure they are a good employer for long term employees, but if you take over a company where the drivers earn more than your own drivers, it isn't rocket science to see that it would be in that companies interest to get rid of the higher waged drivers. Also Diamond hardly covered themselves in glory when they attempted to gain a foothold in Worcester previously.

[PM]

I am sure they are a good employer for long term employees, but if you take over a company where the drivers earn more than your own drivers, it isn't rocket science to see that it would be in that companies interest to get rid of the higher waged drivers. Also Diamond hardly covered themselves in glory when they attempted to gain a foothold in Worcester previously.

I can see where you are coming from.

What was the issue with diamond in worcester previously? Was it not a professional looking operation with the branded buses etc?

[j789]

The buses looked ok, apart from getting the local press in a frenzy over certain branding, but they seemingly put in a number of unworkably low contract offers which obviously didn't work out. I do not believe the council was very smitten with them after that.

Going back to the earlier comments though, I do think that Wyvern is stronger now without Redditch and Kiddy draining resources. Maybe in MRW days they were profitable but competition has had a negative effect. I would think that if NXWM were ever nearing making an offer for Redditch and Kiddy they would have wanted the whole area rather than a loss making pair of garages.

[Liverpool Street]

I doubt NXWM would look at expanding. Too much risk - they're in a comfortable zone at the moment so I really think its urinating in the wind if you truly think NX are looking at enlarging their portfolio. (With those zones anyway.)

[Justin Tyme]

Worcester must surely be profitable - after all, First almost has the area to itself.  Herefordshire seems to have been pro-bus for a long time, so as long as Worcester continues to do well, I imagine First would probably like to stay in Hereford too.

I don't think the lack of connecting services is a problem (there is one route between Worcester and Hereford anyway).  Midland Red South was happy with Banbury - which was fully detached at times - until Stagecoach decided to transfer control to Oxford.  And the Staffordshire side of Arriva Midlands is only just about linked with the Leicestershire side.

First's problem has been its debt, which has restricted investment.  If its recovery plan works - and I expect it will - this should improve over the next two or three years.

I doubt NXWM would look at expanding. Too much risk - they're in a comfortable zone at the moment so I really think its urinating in the wind if you truly think NX are looking at enlarging their portfolio. (With those zones anyway.)

I agree!

[PM]

The buses looked ok, apart from getting the local press in a frenzy over certain branding, but they seemingly put in a number of unworkably low contract offers which obviously didn't work out. I do not believe the council was very smitten with them after that.

Going back to the earlier comments though, I do think that Wyvern is stronger now without Redditch and Kiddy draining resources. Maybe in MRW days they were profitable but competition has had a negative effect. I would think that if NXWM were ever nearing making an offer for Redditch and Kiddy they would have wanted the whole area rather than a loss making pair of garages.

But if NX had wanted a foot in the door then they would have bought redditch and kiddy and turned them around with new buses then they could have launched into worcester from there. Let's face it, £1.5 million is peanuts for NX group. I don't see NX as wanting to expand in Worcestershire at a time of WCC cuts personally-they are far too smart.