Old bus routes

[Stevo]

Should have said last PDR1s delivered to Merseyside PTE. Come to think of it did West Midlands have any dual door buses delivered as new, Merseyside had the jumbo Atlanteans with dual door, quite a few areas outside London had dual door buses delivered when they converted from crew operations to one man operation?

Moving it on, what were the Coventry Station routes before they got numbered to 8/8A/9/9A, i remember the 27, not sure if the other was 26 or 28, but i remember buses towards Coventry Station didn't serve Pool Meadow, but stopped on Hales Street opposite the bus station instead?

BCT had the two batches of two door Fleetlines, 3781-3880 standard length and the Jumbos (33 footers) 3881-3980, but 3980 was diverted to Johannesburg. 3881 to 3979 entered service with WMPTE. BCT also had the 18 two door AEC Swifts. Then there were the Wolverhampton Jumbos which became 3980 to 4004. All these were Park Royal. Then West Brom Jumbos 4005-4012 by Northern Counties. Last to come in 1970 were 4013-27 ordered by Walsall but standard length. The KOM L Nationals were only used as two door on NEC car park duty (unless anyone knows better!)
By the way, we're way off topic!

[busfan2847]

Should have said last PDR1s delivered to Merseyside PTE. Come to think of it did West Midlands have any dual door buses delivered as new,

Including constituents WMPTE operated the following dual door, delivered new with double doors.

Walsall Fleetline/Northern Counties 33-55L, 56L, 76-90L, 91-105L, 106-119L (also 2L, 4-13L, 15-3L were built as Center door and rebuilt as double door 1969-72)
Wolverhammpton Reliances 705-707N, Swift 708-713N, Roadliner 714-719N and Ford 720N
Coventry Fleetline 23-40Y, 41-58Y, 59-76Y, 77-94Y (most r/b 1973-79 as single door (except 59-9/71-5Y), Bristol RE 519-521Y later 5519-5521
Birmingham Swifts 3663-3680, Fleetlines 3781-3880
WMPTE Jumbo Fleetlines 3881-3979 (ordered by Birmingham), 3980-4004 (ordered by Wolverhampton), 4006-4012 (ordered by West Bromwich) - note 100th bus of Birmingham (3980) order went to South Africa, first bus of Wolvehampton order allocated to AG.
WMPTE Fleetlines 4013-4027 (ordered by Walsall)
WMPTE Ford 4028 (ordered by Wolverhampton, delivered as a demonstrator not owned)
WMPTE 4788-4799 (delivered for opening of NEC for use on NEC shuttles)
Plus, as mentioned above, the Commers 4236-4241 with two doors on opposite sides!

last double door vehicles withdrawn in 1986 (the Leyland Nationals)

Midland Red Fleetlines 6023, 6156/9, 6160/6/7, 6175, 6186-9, 6198-6200, 6202-4, 6210-5, 6219/20, 6223/4, 6261-6270, 6278-6283, 6286-6293 (6023, 6186/7, 6198-6200/2/4/10-4/23, 6268, 6280/1/7-9 not rebuilt to single door)

[busfan2847]

BCT had the two batches of two door Fleetlines, 3781-3880 standard length and the Jumbos (33 footers) 3881-3980, but 3980 was diverted to Johannesburg. 3881 to 3979 entered service with WMPTE. BCT also had the 18 two door AEC Swifts. Then there were the Wolverhampton Jumbos which became 3980 to 4004. All these were Park Royal. Then West Brom Jumbos 4005-4012 by Northern Counties. Last to come in 1970 were 4013-27 ordered by Walsall but standard length. The KOM L Nationals were only used as two door on NEC car park duty (unless anyone knows better!)
By the way, we're way off topic!

When new they were used as double door vehicles on ordinary services to the NEC (Birmingham International) from at least Solihull.

[Tony]

Including constituents WMPTE operated the following dual door delivered new with double doors.

Walsall Fleetline/Northern Counties 33-55L, 56L, 76-90L, 91-105L, 106-119L (also 2L, 4-13L, 15-3L were built as Center door and rebuilt as double door 1969-72)
Wolverhammpton Reliances 705-707N, Swift 708-713N, Roadliner 714-719N and Ford 720N
Coventry Fleetline 23-40Y, 41-58Y, 59-76Y, 77-94Y (most r/b 1973-79 as single door (except 59-9/71-5Y), Bristol RE 519-521Y later 5519-5521
Birmingham Swifts 3663-3680, Fleetlines 3781-3880
WMPTE Jumbo Fleetlines 3881-3979 (ordered by Birmingham), 3980-4004 (ordered by Wolverhampton), 4006-4012 (ordered by West Bromwich) - note 100th bus of Birmingham (3980) order went to South Africa, first bus of Wolvehampton order allocated to AG.
WMPTE Fleetlines 4013-4027 (ordered by Walsall)
WMPTE Ford 4028 (ordered by Wolverhampton, delivered as a demonstrator not owned)
WMPTE 4788-4799 (delivered for opening of NEC for use on NEC shuttles)
Plus, as mentioned above, the Commers 4236-4241 with two doors on opposite sides!

last double door vehicles withdrawn in 1986 (the Leyland Nationals)

You've missed the ex Midland Red Fleetlines

[j789]

Were any of the Nationals taken over by WMT in the 1990s from Tame Valley etc two door examples as they may actually be the last two door buses in service with them.

[busfan2847]

You've missed the ex Midland Red Fleetlines

You are correct, I have added them.

[winston]

Were any of the Nationals taken over by WMT in the 1990s from Tame Valley etc two door examples as they may actually be the last two door buses in service with them.

Yes, some Westlink dual door Nationals moved up to WMBuses and worked to cover Stevenson's & Metrowest etc

[busfan2847]

Were any of the Nationals taken over by WMT in the 1990s from Tame Valley etc two door examples as they may actually be the last two door buses in service with them.

I specified WMPTE and earlier.

There where double door Nationals acquired from Metrowest (1601/2, 1662, 1746, 1901-6 last withdrawn 1997). Your Bus Atlanteans 38, 42/3, 61/2/4, Fleetline 45, and of course SB220 5201 purchased after WMT took over Your Bus for an airport contract replacing the monorail, rebuilt to single door in 1999.

Leyland Nationals 1907-1912 were hired in from Westlink when Stevensons services were taken over in 1994 for a few months into 1995.

Finally all 33 articulated buses are dual door (6001-11, 6012-21, 6022-33) with 6021 still in service!

I do not have any from Tame Valley

[Other Walsall Tony]

I seem to remember a fatal accident in Brum when an elderly lady attempted to board a bus via the centre doors, fell and was run over, and after this no more two door deckers were ordered. Does anyone else recall this inncident?

[don]

I seem to remember a fatal accident in Brum when an elderly lady attempted to board a bus via the centre doors, fell and was run over, and after this no more two door deckers were ordered. Does anyone else recall this inncident?

Yes it was on the Bristol Road during the period that 3811-3878 operated the routes (basically during the end of 1968 and most of 1969). I think there were other issues and accidents which led to the signs being added to the between doors near side lower deck windows. After that a safety device was fitted which prevented the bus driving off with the centre door open - which negated any boarding/alighting time saving from having a central door - in fact it made them slower than single door vehicles - and also caused a loss of 4 seats in 30ft Fleetlines. It appears the idea of having two doors came at the time of changing double deck routes to one person operation - and the removal of rear number blinds. As a result of the issues no more dual door vehicles were purchased by WMPTE other than those already in order or under delivery except the NEC Nationals, which presumably required them for contractual reasons.

In fact apart from London and Lothian dual door buses generally went out of favour around the same period with a few sporadic exceptions presumably for the same reasons.

It's stated in several books that Midland Red drivers often didn't use the exit door on their buses and in any case the distance between the doors appeared much shorter than on the BCT or WMPTE ones.

The Walsall CT buses built with two doors were 31-55;56; and 76-119. Conversions in WMPTE days covered 2-30, with the exception of 17 and 24 (rebuilt with two doors and the later style front following severe collision damage in WCT days) whilst 3 and 14 were withdrawn in single door format in early WMPTE days (1970). 

[Pete50492]

Yes, the 159 was a former Midland Red route, along with many, many others in the Birmingham, Solihull and Black Country areas that were sold to WMPTE in 1973.

Midland Red ordered 118 Atlanteans as part of the 1972 NBC order.  I don't think it was announced where they would be allocated to, but it was academic because they never reached Midland Red.   The 50 that were ordered with MCW bodies were diverted to London Country (30) and Maidstone & District (20), and 60 of the 68 with Alexander bodies were indeed diverted to Merseyside PTE.

Anyone know what happened to the other eight?

I was aware that Midland Red attempted to order 118 Atlanteans that were diverted. i seem to recall from one of Malcolm keeley's books on Midland Red that some indeed went to LCBS with the rest I believe going to Southdown though I may be wrong on this. My question is , however that there seems to be some discussion as to some of the order ending up with Merseyside to full MPTE spec. Given that this was an NBC order and that MPTE was an entirely separate entity how did this come about? Was part of the order cancelled by NBC?

[Kevin]

...

The early Timesaver services were more Limited Stop than today's X services - Timesavers seemed more targeted at fast point-to-point links, whereas today's X routes are more focussed on stopping where people live or work.  To give an example, the X51 makes more stops than the original 951 did and loads better (at least off peak) as a result.

Rather moot point now given the conversation has swung onto old buses but....
One particular reason I see the X51 as being better than the 951 is the attitude of the drivers. The 951 drivers seemed to hate picking up passengers that weren't going beyond Walsall, one even shouted at me on my way to school once saying "you don't need to get this bus get the 51 instead"!

[Crosville]

Cheers everyone.

The Atlanteans were ordered but not built, so the Atlanteans could be built to Merseyside spec,, one of those that went to Merseyside, 1236 is preserved by Merseyside Transport Trust who have an article about 1236 on there site. http://mttrust.co.uk/1236-bkc-236k/4546687771

[Pete50492]

Cheers everyone.

The Atlanteans were ordered but not built, so the Atlanteans could be built to Merseyside spec,, one of those that went to Merseyside, 1236 is preserved by Merseyside Transport Trust who have an article about 1236 on there site. http://mttrust.co.uk/1236-bkc-236k/4546687771

Thanks For the info Crosville! Excellent article on 1236 as well.

[DeanM66A]

I somehow recall the 966 Wolverhampton - Airport journey time being 85 minutes at first.  I think the service was Limited Stop throughout, except between Walsall and Mere Green, and it bypassed Castle Bromwich and Smiths Wood by using the Collector Road between M6 junction 5 and Chelmsley Wood.   I rode the service in this form a couple of times - great rides although not alot of passengers.

Interestingly, a summer hourly all-night service was registered, but the service started on 26 October 1986 (Deregulation Day) and by summer 1987 there had been a change of mind and the night service did not start.

The early Timesaver services were more Limited Stop than today's X services - Timesavers seemed more targeted at fast point-to-point links, whereas today's X routes are more focussed on stopping where people live or work.  To give an example, the X51 makes more stops than the original 951 did and loads better (at least off peak) as a result.

The thread's moved on and it's taken me over a week to find this 966 photo and clean it up.  But I'm still going to put it on this thread! ;D

https://www.flickr.com/photos/69947186@N08/32804019862/in/photolist-RYMaLC-RYMbem