Claribels

[Justin Tyme]

The 1986 act is well overdue an overhaul and in my opinion it should include a clause whereby an operator can still register on any route and compete, but to have the registration accepted they should also have to present a business case to the authority to evidence how their introduction is going to benefit the passenger and provide growth in overall passenger numbers. If the business case doesn't add up, then the authority should have the ability to insist that the operator registers at intervals that are beneficial to the travelling public, making sure of course that the journeys will fit onto the required amount of running boards that the operator was looking to use, but if necessary reducing it.

This would put an end to people registering only on profitable sections or at profitable times, unless the operator could prove that numbers warranted it (ie where there is regular overcrowding of vehicles).

To be honest we are way past the point of no return with this.  Competition is a way of life everywhere - the public would ask why buses are that different.  They provide an essential service, but so do Tescos, Sainsburys and Aldi.

Between 1931 and 1980, when applying for a Road Service Licence an operator had to prove that there was an unmet need, and that an existing service would not be adversely affected.   This brought stability, but also made innovation difficult and there was little incentive to improve 'the product'.  In 1980 the rules were changed so that the onus was on an objector (i.e. the operator of an existing service that would be affected) - the assumption was that a licence would be granted unless it was against the public interest - whatever that was.

One effect of competition, even from those running two minutes ahead, is to keep operators on their toes.  Without it, would NXWM have introduced leather-seated buses, or stepped up their bus refurbishment programme?

[andy]

Competition can work but it doesn't necessarily keep other operators 'on their toes', it just encourages over bussing of coridors by all concerned while others are left neglected.

My point is that the current system is all centred around profit margins of operators and not needs of present and future passengers, and I'm calling for some realignment, not the old system.

[Steveminor]

But isn't a bus operator a business & isnt a business about profit margins?
For what it's worth I do agree that the current system needs an overhaul. The local authorities have been given the power by the government to set frequency and fare standards for bus routes but in the most part choose not to use them.
The closest we have come is the SQP in Birmingham City Centre but even that is flawed.

What we really need I believe is a system like TFL.
Everyone bids for a route as a gross tender with the authority setting out fares vehicle standards and timetables. It is then upto the winner to meet these contractual standards or risk losing the
route. Also as the network is operating as gross tenders the authority don't have to worry about reimbursing the operators for all the concessionary passes allowing this extra money to be ploughed back into bus infrastructure I.e bus stops, roadside information etc.
Can't see it ever happening though as there seems no political will

[PM]

But isn't a bus operator a business & isnt a business about profit margins?
For what it's worth I do agree that the current system needs an overhaul. The local authorities have been given the power by the government to set frequency and fare standards for bus routes but in the most part choose not to use them.
The closest we have come is the SQP in Birmingham City Centre but even that is flawed.

What we really need I believe is a system like TFL.
Everyone bids for a route as a gross tender with the authority setting out fares vehicle standards and timetables. It is then upto the winner to meet these contractual standards or risk losing the
route. Also as the network is operating as gross tenders the authority don't have to worry about reimbursing the operators for all the concessionary passes allowing this extra money to be ploughed back into bus infrastructure I.e bus stops, roadside information etc.
Can't see it ever happening though as there seems no political will

Why on earth do we want a TfL style system. Even Metro admitted it would cost more and Bus Users Uk said it would not be interest of passengers. Why on earth do we want a TfL style system where transport is controlled by policians as opposed to by transport and industry experts?? I personally don't rate London's transport system greatly-I far prefer the Go-Ahead group, Stagecoach and Rotala's operations outside London-I know rotala dont run in London but still. Let's face it, you dont need costly re-regulation to get passenger numbers up-NCT does it in a dergegulated environment and so do many other operators and I dont see leather seats, stagecoach gold, trent barton, black diamond royale buses in central london. I see a fleet of well used and tired looking buses. There are deregulated environments where similar levels of passenger growth have been achieved as London without the associated costs. However, I do think we need to address market dominance and ensure that there is an environment in which people are able to compete. Competition, where it exists, works and drives up passenger numbers-eg oxford. Plus, not only would council taxes have to go up if reregulation were introduced so would fares! I personally do not think there is a great deal wrong with the current system. In most places, competition exists and passenger numbers are going up. I do think however that we need more SQBPs and co-ordination which CAN and should take place in a deregulated environment.

[Ash]

I think more competition within the West Midlands would be good but would like to see operators such as diamond create their own services try them out and may be get a subsidary for them for a bit off centro too encourage operators to create new services for 6 months lets say if they then can run on their own that bus company continues to operate them as their own service commerically if not they get withdrawn. For example centro could subsidise an express service between Walsall and Wolverhampton lets say the X529 and use NXWM or another operator such as Arriva or Rotala. If it's commerically viable they continue the service without centro's help if not its gets withdrawn but at least the network grows and gives other operators the chance to try out newly created services with less risk. 
Bet i will get absolutely slaughtered over this idea but suppose it's a forum for discussion and debates.

[PM]

I think more competition within the West Midlands would be good but would like to see operators such as diamond create their own services try them out and may be get a subsidary for them for a bit off centro too encourage operators to create new services for 6 months lets say if they then can run on their own that bus company continues to operate them as their own service commerically if not they get withdrawn. For example centro could subsidise an express service between Walsall and Wolverhampton lets say the X529 and use NXWM or another operator such as Arriva or Rotala. If it's commerically viable they continue the service without centro's help if not its gets withdrawn but at least the network grows and gives other operators the chance to try out newly created services with less risk. 
Bet i will get absolutely slaughtered over this idea but suppose it's a forum for discussion and debates.

What a good idea! This would encourage innovation on the part of operators without such a great amount of financial risk. Perhaps this would also succeed in growing the bus network which is only a good thing. I like this idea providing it is the operators deciding which routes to try out not the pte-the pte just cough up the money.

[monkeyjoe]

So are Claribels doing the right thing then ? ?

[PM]

So are Claribels doing the right thing then ? ?

Yes. Undoubtedly. They have entered into the spirit of deregulation and offer choice and competition and quality all of which is in the interest of the passenger.

[Discodave]

I think more competition within the West Midlands would be good but would like to see operators such as diamond create their own services try them out and may be get a subsidary for them for a bit off centro too encourage operators to create new services for 6 months lets say if they then can run on their own that bus company continues to operate them as their own service commerically if not they get withdrawn. For example centro could subsidise an express service between Walsall and Wolverhampton lets say the X529 and use NXWM or another operator such as Arriva or Rotala. If it's commerically viable they continue the service without centro's help if not its gets withdrawn but at least the network grows and gives other operators the chance to try out newly created services with less risk. 
Bet i will get absolutely slaughtered over this idea but suppose it's a forum for discussion and debates.

There is enough buses down the 529 route or parts of it already I am not knocking the idea it is good just a wrong choice trying express routes everywhere when there is no room for bus lanes etc or cause more problems than they solve mentioned before about the 529 route bus lanes into Wolves traffic queues miles before them and the ones local to me on the 301 are being taken out as they always parked in as they run right next to houses most have no driveway so have no choice but to park in them and look at the tyburn road ones they did not last long and caused chaos.

[Ash]

I think more competition within the West Midlands would be good but would like to see operators such as diamond create their own services try them out and may be get a subsidary for them for a bit off centro too encourage operators to create new services for 6 months lets say if they then can run on their own that bus company continues to operate them as their own service commerically if not they get withdrawn. For example centro could subsidise an express service between Walsall and Wolverhampton lets say the X529 and use NXWM or another operator such as Arriva or Rotala. If it's commerically viable they continue the service without centro's help if not its gets withdrawn but at least the network grows and gives other operators the chance to try out newly created services with less risk. 
Bet i will get absolutely slaughtered over this idea but suppose it's a forum for discussion and debates.

There is enough buses down the 529 route or parts of it already I am not knocking the idea it is good just a wrong choice trying express routes everywhere when there is no room for bus lanes etc or cause more problems than they solve mentioned before about the 529 route bus lanes into Wolves traffic queues miles before them and the ones local to me on the 301 are being taken out as they always parked in as they run right next to houses most have no driveway so have no choice but to park in them and look at the tyburn road ones they did not last long and caused chaos.

I was think more using the black country route from junction 10 and leaving for willenhall and rejoining for Wolverhampton so not using any bus lanes just using whats actually already there. So would cover all stops only between Walsall and Junction 10.

[Tony]

I think more competition within the West Midlands would be good but would like to see operators such as diamond create their own services try them out and may be get a subsidary for them for a bit off centro too encourage operators to create new services for 6 months lets say if they then can run on their own that bus company continues to operate them as their own service commerically if not they get withdrawn. For example centro could subsidise an express service between Walsall and Wolverhampton lets say the X529 and use NXWM or another operator such as Arriva or Rotala. If it's commerically viable they continue the service without centro's help if not its gets withdrawn but at least the network grows and gives other operators the chance to try out newly created services with less risk. 
Bet i will get absolutely slaughtered over this idea but suppose it's a forum for discussion and debates.

There is enough buses down the 529 route or parts of it already I am not knocking the idea it is good just a wrong choice trying express routes everywhere when there is no room for bus lanes etc or cause more problems than they solve mentioned before about the 529 route bus lanes into Wolves traffic queues miles before them and the ones local to me on the 301 are being taken out as they always parked in as they run right next to houses most have no driveway so have no choice but to park in them and look at the tyburn road ones they did not last long and caused chaos.

I was think more using the black country route from junction 10 and leaving for willenhall and rejoining for Wolverhampton so not using any bus lanes just using whats actually already there. So would cover all stops only between Walsall and Junction 10.

During the peak heading towards Walsall the 529 route is quicker than the Black Country Route approaching Junction 10. An express route was tried on Deregulation in 1986 (966) but didn't work because not that many people actually do the full length of the route. Most of the 529 business is from intermediate stops to Walsall, Willenhall and Wolverhampton

[Ash]

Ok thanks Tony for the Information

[Isle of Stroma]

An express route was tried on Deregulation in 1986 (966) but didn't work because not that many people actually do the full length of the route. Most of the 529 business is from intermediate stops to Walsall, Willenhall and Wolverhampton

My own experience of the 966 is of heaving Timesavers, with the load not easing until Erdington. I've used it many a time to get back from Wolvo' to (what is now) the Spitfire Island.

Whilst it may not be beneficial to the operator concerned (hence why the 900, 966 etc are now split into several 'short' sections), the long routes were useful for ad-hoc journeys. I've previously used the 900 (using the 28xx 'Timesavers') for Quinton - Coventry trips en route to Brandon for the Speedway, & I wasn't the only one to do so. Incidentally, there used to be special services laid on between Pool Meadow & Brandon (Special Bus services to sporting venues, anyone else on here old enough to remember them ? ;-) ), hence the 900 being more convenient than the Train!

[Stevo]

Two Claribel Optare Versas were in Solihull showing 'Shuttle Bus' - long wheelbase, I think, 13 reg.

[Isle of Stroma]

Two Claribel Optare Versas were in Solihull showing 'Shuttle Bus' - long wheelbase, I think, 13 reg.

YJ13HJC/D, V12100 models. Tony understands there to be three of them, but I've only seen these two so far.