first sells part of London

[sconehead85]

 First and Stagecoach- particularly the latter- have got HUNDREDS of Volvo Olympians to remove and are not ordering sufficient new buses to replace them.  Stagecoach will HAVE to cascade if they are to meet the 2016 DDA deadline, mainly from the 17xxx series Dennis Tridents.

If London goes for leasing, who is going to buy new? 

sconehead85

[tank90]

If you look at it Stagecoach are better at buying than First but if you  look at how much First has spent in London in the last 3 years then First wouldnt have any Step DDs and or very few Singles too.

[winston]

If you look at it Stagecoach are better at buying than First but if you  look at how much First has spent in London in the last 3 years then First wouldnt have any Step DDs and or very few Singles too.

I did see it suggested on one of the forums, that some of the more recent First London deliveries may be leased, which may account for the big differences in the prices paid in the two separate deals i.e. Metroline paid £57.5million for 494 buses, whilst Transit Systems paid £21.3 million for 400 buses. I was also under the impression that First may have bid low to secure the 100 buses worth of work off Stagecoach for Lea Interchange i.e. Tfl routes 25, 26 & 30. First London were only producing approx 4% profit margins overall, with the sale of First London, UK bus profit margins overall will actually increase from the current 8% up to around 10%+

[Tony]

First and Stagecoach- particularly the latter- have got HUNDREDS of Volvo Olympians to remove and are not ordering sufficient new buses to replace them.  Stagecoach will HAVE to cascade if they are to meet the 2016 DDA deadline, mainly from the 17xxx series Dennis Tridents.

If London goes for leasing, who is going to buy new? 

sconehead85

Whether leased of purchased doesn't make any difference to the total number of new vehicles. All leasing means is leasing companies own the vehicles instead of operating companies. They will still be available when they have finished the initial lease.

What will stop the supply of ex London Double decks to the provinces is the Borismaster Currently most routes in London are allocated on 7 year deals so there is currently a supply of 7 year old buses for purchase or transfer within large groups.
Some Routes are then allocated second hand buses so some stay in London so are available later.

With Borismasters going to all do 15 years in London before release their is going to be a big gap after the older buses finish coming out of London and the first Borismasters do

[CRP2012]

First and Stagecoach- particularly the latter- have got HUNDREDS of Volvo Olympians to remove and are not ordering sufficient new buses to replace them.  Stagecoach will HAVE to cascade if they are to meet the 2016 DDA deadline, mainly from the 17xxx series Dennis Tridents.

If London goes for leasing, who is going to buy new? 

sconehead85

im sure both Stagecoach & Firstbus have got plans for it

- Firstbus can now order more buses for other fleets in next years order without having london to update
- Stagecoach,If stagecoach order 500 new buses next year for 14/15 then thats DAA Sorted

[sconehead85]

Stagecoach have still got 120 Volvo B10M buses to clear out as well as 400-500 Volvo Olympians so they have  still distance to go.

sconehead85

[Kevin_Brum12]

Whether leased of purchased doesn't make any difference to the total number of new vehicles. All leasing means is leasing companies own the vehicles instead of operating companies. They will still be available when they have finished the initial lease.

What will stop the supply of ex London Double decks to the provinces is the Borismaster Currently most routes in London are allocated on 7 year deals so there is currently a supply of 7 year old buses for purchase or transfer within large groups.
Some Routes are then allocated second hand buses so some stay in London so are available later.

With Borismasters going to all do 15 years in London before release their is going to be a big gap after the older buses finish coming out of London and the first Borismasters do.

The Borismaster is the achillees heel for the bus industry.  Prior to its arrival, bus operators could buy standardised buses for London work built to a London specification, and when the contract ended transfer up for provincial operations mid life buses with the London foibles (like the middle door) taken out.

Now operators are faced with the prospect of leasing Borismasters for their London operations which they will be stuck with for 15 years and which, after that length of time will be fit for scrap, and having to acquire new buses for their out of London companies once the tap of Tridents, Enviro 400's, Geminis, Presidents etc is turned off.

Also many smaller operators (e.g. Green Bus) have bought mid life London buses for their operations.  Without these being available where are they going to acquire buses from, as I can't see the likes of First or Stagecoach selling their surplus stock willingly to potential competitors who could undermine their profits?

[Justin Tyme]

The Borismaster is the achillees heel for the bus industry.  Prior to its arrival, bus operators could buy standardised buses for London work built to a London specification, and when the contract ended transfer up for provincial operations mid life buses with the London foibles (like the middle door) taken out.

Now operators are faced with the prospect of leasing Borismasters for their London operations which they will be stuck with for 15 years and which, after that length of time will be fit for scrap, and having to acquire new buses for their out of London companies once the tap of Tridents, Enviro 400's, Geminis, Presidents etc is turned off.

Also many smaller operators (e.g. Green Bus) have bought mid life London buses for their operations.  Without these being available where are they going to acquire buses from, as I can't see the likes of First or Stagecoach selling their surplus stock willingly to potential competitors who could undermine their profits?

On the other hand...

So far it looks like Borismasters are only going to be supplied by TfL for Inner London trunk services.  TfL is leasing Borismasters to operators with the contracts to run these services, so it will be the bus routes, rather than necessarily the operators, that will be 'stuck' with them for 15 years.

Away from these trunk services it looks like the current system of getting operators to provide their own 'mainstream' buses - including double decks - for all other parts of the TfL empire will continue.

Also, I don't know if you recall that when Stagecoach bought back its London operations, it announced that it would lease buses for London in the future.  This seems to have pleased provincial Stagecoach companies who - in due course - will no longer have tired mid-life London-spec buses foisted on them when other types would be more suitable.  I believe some other London operators also lease their buses.

So I think that the Borismasters will reduce, but not end, the number of mid-life buses available on the secondhand market in a few years' time.

[Tony]

The Borismaster is the achillees heel for the bus industry.  Prior to its arrival, bus operators could buy standardised buses for London work built to a London specification, and when the contract ended transfer up for provincial operations mid life buses with the London foibles (like the middle door) taken out.

Now operators are faced with the prospect of leasing Borismasters for their London operations which they will be stuck with for 15 years and which, after that length of time will be fit for scrap, and having to acquire new buses for their out of London companies once the tap of Tridents, Enviro 400's, Geminis, Presidents etc is turned off.

Also many smaller operators (e.g. Green Bus) have bought mid life London buses for their operations.  Without these being available where are they going to acquire buses from, as I can't see the likes of First or Stagecoach selling their surplus stock willingly to potential competitors who could undermine their profits?

On the other hand...

So far it looks like Borismasters are only going to be supplied by TfL for Inner London trunk services.  TfL is leasing Borismasters to operators with the contracts to run these services, so it will be the bus routes, rather than necessarily the operators, that will be 'stuck' with them for 15 years.

Away from these trunk services it looks like the current system of getting operators to provide their own 'mainstream' buses - including double decks - for all other parts of the TfL empire will continue.

Also, I don't know if you recall that when Stagecoach bought back its London operations, it announced that it would lease buses for London in the future.  This seems to have pleased provincial Stagecoach companies who - in due course - will no longer have tired mid-life London-spec buses foisted on them when other types would be more suitable.  I believe some other London operators also lease their buses.

So I think that the Borismasters will reduce, but not end, the number of mid-life buses available on the secondhand market in a few years' time.

Yes I agree, the Borismaster goes back to traditional London thinking like the RT & Routemaster. 'This is the bus that we need in London' everyone else can have buses they think suit their needs. If you want ex London buses you can have them when they have paid their purchase price back to Londoners.

All we need now is for a massive works to do overhauls on them mid-life and 'bingo'.
Why would anyone want 7-15 year buses of an odd design dumped on them as either an operator or passenger I don't know.

This craze started with the DMSs which with their staircases designed for the centre exit being dumped all over the country and hasn't stopped since.

[winston]

On the other hand...

So far it looks like Borismasters are only going to be supplied by TfL for Inner London trunk services.  TfL is leasing Borismasters to operators with the contracts to run these services, so it will be the bus routes, rather than necessarily the operators, that will be 'stuck' with them for 15 years.

Away from these trunk services it looks like the current system of getting operators to provide their own 'mainstream' buses - including double decks - for all other parts of the TfL empire will continue.

Also, I don't know if you recall that when Stagecoach bought back its London operations, it announced that it would lease buses for London in the future.  This seems to have pleased provincial Stagecoach companies who - in due course - will no longer have tired mid-life London-spec buses foisted on them when other types would be more suitable.  I believe some other London operators also lease their buses.

So I think that the Borismasters will reduce, but not end, the number of mid-life buses available on the secondhand market in a few years' time.

London currently has a Pvr of 7635 buses, only 600 Borismasters have been ordered to date, the remainder of the London bus requirement will continue to be standard diesels for some time to come yet

[Tony]

On the other hand...

So far it looks like Borismasters are only going to be supplied by TfL for Inner London trunk services.  TfL is leasing Borismasters to operators with the contracts to run these services, so it will be the bus routes, rather than necessarily the operators, that will be 'stuck' with them for 15 years.

Away from these trunk services it looks like the current system of getting operators to provide their own 'mainstream' buses - including double decks - for all other parts of the TfL empire will continue.

Also, I don't know if you recall that when Stagecoach bought back its London operations, it announced that it would lease buses for London in the future.  This seems to have pleased provincial Stagecoach companies who - in due course - will no longer have tired mid-life London-spec buses foisted on them when other types would be more suitable.  I believe some other London operators also lease their buses.

So I think that the Borismasters will reduce, but not end, the number of mid-life buses available on the secondhand market in a few years' time.

London currently has a Pvr of 7635 buses, only 600 Borismasters have been ordered to date, the remainder of the London bus requirement will continue to be standard diesels for some time to come yet

What will be interesting is when Wright lose exclusive rights to build 'Borismasters' and other builders are allowed to bid. I think wright have the exclusive rule for 5 years

[winston]

What will be interesting is when Wright lose exclusive rights to build 'Borismasters' and other builders are allowed to bid. I think wright have the exclusive rule for 5 years

Wasn't aware of that one, I had assumed Wrights had won the sole right to build the Borismaster.

Surely Wrights will still have the competitive advantage, as they were involved with the design & development from scratch and already have the production line up & running. If ADL for example were to commence building Borismasters, Tfl would need to order sufficient quantities to offset the cost of setting up a new production line / training staff etc

[Justin Tyme]

What will be interesting is when Wright lose exclusive rights to build 'Borismasters' and other builders are allowed to bid. I think wright have the exclusive rule for 5 years

Wasn't aware of that one, I had assumed Wrights had won the sole right to build the Borismaster.

Surely Wrights will still have the competitive advantage, as they were involved with the design & development from scratch and already have the production line up & running. If ADL for example were to commence building Borismasters, Tfl would need to order sufficient quantities to offset the cost of setting up a new production line / training staff etc

There's a good chance that 5 years will be enough to build all the Borismasters TfL need.  I can't see anyone else buying any, although I guess the best affordable features will probably appear in a more mainstream vehicle.

[winston]

What will be interesting is when Wright lose exclusive rights to build 'Borismasters' and other builders are allowed to bid. I think wright have the exclusive rule for 5 years

Wasn't aware of that one, I had assumed Wrights had won the sole right to build the Borismaster.

Surely Wrights will still have the competitive advantage, as they were involved with the design & development from scratch and already have the production line up & running. If ADL for example were to commence building Borismasters, Tfl would need to order sufficient quantities to offset the cost of setting up a new production line / training staff etc

There's a good chance that 5 years will be enough to build all the Borismasters TfL need.  I can't see anyone else buying any, although I guess the best affordable features will probably appear in a more mainstream vehicle.

I agree, the Borismaster was a 'new bus for London' I can't see anyone else being interested in taking the type

[tank90]

The "BoirsMaster" is an easy flo design, both up and stairs, I can see Lothian being interested in it for there airport service as they dont need the central door, but I can't see much use in the UK for it. But the World market might want an easy flo Double Decker it just depends on if it works in London. I'm sure people where saying the same about the Route Master behind closed doors and they proved a it outside of London so NBfL may aslo find some surpport from elsewhere in the UK.