Competetion in the Midlands

[Discodave]

Hello to all Tony please post in the relevent section if wrong.

I know no company can have a monopoly but looking at how buses are going in the midlands do you really have a choice apart from NX.  Here is how it looks on my view at the moment.

Bigger operators

Arriva a few services but not taking it to any level mainly tendered or services from out of county
First non existant just out of town into Mids
Stagecoach doing ok in coventry Nothing any where else
Go ahead nothing in Midlands except trains
Rotala will put as big but losing ground to NX plus look a rag tag operation here compared to Bristol with fleet quality do not think they will last or sell up to concentrate elsewhere.

Smaller operators

VIP/Thandi/Travel express/sandwell not really a threat more than likely took off road by authorities
Claribels seems to be doing ok on its core routes
Green bus mainly school but not doing too bad but NX are not too worried
de coursey doing ok in coventry and NX work

I have lost track with many operators but there is no alternative being we are in one of the biggest PTE areas outside of London.

[Ash]

I hope Rotala sells their bus operation in the West Midlands and some like Arriva buy it up or someone like de courcey if they wanted to expand their business in Birmingham and the Black Country.

[Bob]

Does anyone think Arriva will successfully expand?

[PM]

About buying diamond......
Decourcey wouldnt take the risk and also risk upsetting national express.
Arriva wouldnt have the clout
Go-Ahead have already had their fingers burnt and only seem able to run buses when tendered or with networks designed by TAS-unfair, but true
First are clueless
Stagecoach know what they are doing and look at south yorkshire-tracky used to be a bit all over the place lets face it and first wiped the floor on them. Now the tables are turning
Unfortunately, stagecoach seems to have its sights constantly set on WMT as opposed to anything else.

I hope rotala dont sell. I for one think they are an interesting and innovative group. I would just like them to occasionally show a bit more business nouse and compete better and innovate even more. Having said that, overall I far prefer them to arriva/first/national express. No, bob I dont think arriva will successfully expand. After the initial tendering success, nothing more seems to have come of it and arriva are bad at running businesses when they have a monopoly let alone anything else-colchester's a good example.

[Justin Tyme]

Other operators probably have more of a foothold in the Black Country than elsewhere.  Diamond have a strong presence on the 4 and the 301 particularly, and don't forget Hansons in the Dudley area.  Banga also run on several services in Wolverhampton.

[PM]

Other operators probably have more of a foothold in the Black Country than elsewhere.  Diamond have a strong presence on the 4 and the 301 particularly, and don't forget Hansons in the Dudley area.  Banga also run on several services in Wolverhampton.

Banga have been around for years and seem to survive and Hanson's is a fantastic example of the operator deregulation was designed to bring. Yes, in the black country it seems to be easier to be an independant. I dont know whether it is because less people have travelcards or what....

[NXWM Spectra]

Other operators probably have more of a foothold in the Black Country than elsewhere.  Diamond have a strong presence on the 4 and the 301 particularly, and don't forget Hansons in the Dudley area.  Banga also run on several services in Wolverhampton.

Banga fit into the category with Travel Express, VIP and Sandwell Travel, who are more likely to have their licenses removed than they are to expand.

But to be honest, after buying 4 Solos from NX, they bought another recently, so they must have plans as they're not much newer than the buses that they have.
They could however be looking to go low floor soon, but that sounds unlikely.

[Ash]

There are other quite large bus groups in the UK such as transdev, i quite like the yellow buses brand they have created in Bournemouth and have business elsewhere in the Uk such as London. I thought with diamond two years ago that they were trying to create a very innovative business trying their best to compete with NXWM on some key services such as:

16- had 4 brand new MCV' evolution buses for branded the super 16 (this has been lost and replaced with Hybrids which i think have just ended up on the service due to the emmission ruling in Jan) MCV's exported to New Zealand.
002- 6 branded centro's with a very catchy 002 branding which still remains.
142/401E- both had specific solo's branded stourbridge shuttle and yew tree connection, both services have lost their branding and now often just see 10+ old darts.
301- seemed to have their own dedicated cadets 201-7 which now seem to end up shared still on the 301 and 4 services.
56/202- have royale centro's dedicated to the services which remain but were intially for the 9 service and after that havent really settled on one particular service and still end up on services like the 301 and previously the 417 which I havent got a clue why there were needed on there.
404E- had 10 striking purple black country connection MCV evolution buses all have been exported to New Zealand and since then the 4 service see's anything that's available at Tividale for the day.
Also red diamond had their own 9 mcv's which have also been exported to New Zealand.

So the innovative brands have mostly been lost along with the buses and have been replaced by buses which are over 10 years old in most cases and with people posting their turnover and profits do Rotala have the finances for exansion or even any new buses especially with the cadets for sale. In my opinion unless a significant financial injection happens especially for the West Midlands bus operations how are they going to develop for the future, services like the 4/56/002/301/40/42/43 specifically I have noticed to be very well used and must be making a significant profit surely enough for some investment on these services.

[Westy]

Wasnt there a story in one of the local rags about one of Banga's relatives working for WMT until they got the push?

Its going back a few years addmittedly.

[SMK]

Wasnt there a story in one of the local rags about one of Banga's relatives working for WMT until they got the push?

Its going back a few years addmittedly.

Wasn't that the guy who started the company after supposedly failing to be chosen for a higher-level position when he worked at WMT?

[PM]

There are other quite large bus groups in the UK such as transdev, i quite like the yellow buses brand they have created in Bournemouth and have business elsewhere in the Uk such as London. I thought with diamond two years ago that they were trying to create a very innovative business trying their best to compete with NXWM on some key services such as:

16- had 4 brand new MCV' evolution buses for branded the super 16 (this has been lost and replaced with Hybrids which i think have just ended up on the service due to the emmission ruling in Jan) MCV's exported to New Zealand.
002- 6 branded centro's with a very catchy 002 branding which still remains.
142/401E- both had specific solo's branded stourbridge shuttle and yew tree connection, both services have lost their branding and now often just see 10+ old darts.
301- seemed to have their own dedicated cadets 201-7 which now seem to end up shared still on the 301 and 4 services.
56/202- have royale centro's dedicated to the services which remain but were intially for the 9 service and after that havent really settled on one particular service and still end up on services like the 301 and previously the 417 which I havent got a clue why there were needed on there.
404E- had 10 striking purple black country connection MCV evolution buses all have been exported to New Zealand and since then the 4 service see's anything that's available at Tividale for the day.
Also red diamond had their own 9 mcv's which have also been exported to New Zealand.

So the innovative brands have mostly been lost along with the buses and have been replaced by buses which are over 10 years old in most cases and with people posting their turnover and profits do Rotala have the finances for exansion or even any new buses especially with the cadets for sale. In my opinion unless a significant financial injection happens especially for the West Midlands bus operations how are they going to develop for the future, services like the 4/56/002/301/40/42/43 specifically I have noticed to be very well used and must be making a significant profit surely enough for some investment on these services.

I agree with you Ash. Rotala have just had another £11 million pound loan so surely time for some investment in the WM region. They need to buy good solid reliable buses-not optares or stuff they dont want and just buy because its going cheap. They could also do well to transfer the centros from wessex back to birmingham and replace the buses in bristol if only the operations there can justify new buses. They also need to buy at least one solid money making operation-like wigan was-to bring in some cash. They also need to have managers out watching the 50 and 16 and why they dont make as much money as they should do. They need to repaint a few more centros into the nifty livery-the ovs centro and the pzh one as well and fight hard to try to get greenbus off the route.

[Discodave]

Lets hope some of the loan money is for newer buses in the black country not just Birmingham due to the LEZ it always is the case when an area has to have new buses the crap is cascaded elsewhere look at the 4 10 yr old plus darts the same is happening to the 301 too well used routes the both and crap put on them same with other West Brom routes mentioned

[PM]

Lets hope some of the loan money is for newer buses in the black country not just Birmingham due to the LEZ it always is the case when an area has to have new buses the crap is cascaded elsewhere look at the 4 10 yr old plus darts the same is happening to the 301 too well used routes the both and crap put on them same with other West Brom routes mentioned

sorry dave i meant birmingham as in the diamond operation in the west midlands as opposed to say preston etc not as in birmingham in particular. Should have been clearer...... :(

[Ash]

I always think the 4 (404E) is diamonds 'showcase' service as it had originally the centro's before going to wessex and branded for the 002 and 50 and the mcv's after. This is shown by the extra cleaners being put on to the 4 service by centro at West Brom to ensure the buses leaving the bus station are spotless so showing a bit of investment in a partnership with centro. Even now the 4 has over 10 year old dart on it with around 4/5 cadets on per day, i will hate to see how many breakdowns will occur when the weather start warming up as the buses have hardly any breaks when on the 4H and 4M and the cadets aren't brilliant when the sun comes out. With the 16 and 50 if they want to increase passenger numbers they need extra buses on the service 5 centro on the 50 and 6 hybrids on the 16 is too little when compared to all of NXWM vehicles with the addition on GRS and Green buses on the 16 and 50 respectively. The 40/42/43 are key local services for diamond they can get very busy at times and even thought the darts are over 10 years old they have the capacity needed where the solos and shorter darts are useless and get full far too quickly. Also if they want to increase passenger usage get the diamond returns advertised on the buses if their cheaper than NXWM get people to know that diamond offer return tickets, also haven't got a clue why they have brought an odd enviro 200 they might aswell as just put the 54 eclipse they have for sale into the fleet and not brought the enviro 200, must say thought the wessex red fleet is brilliant and the livery is superb. The same thing is happening with Preston thought they still have old olympian deckers and leyland lynx still in use when some of the older darts from blue diamond which are parked at Tividale could have transferred up there to replace these.

[winston]

There are other quite large bus groups in the UK such as transdev, i quite like the yellow buses brand they have created in Bournemouth and have business elsewhere in the Uk such as London. I thought with diamond two years ago that they were trying to create a very innovative business trying their best to compete with NXWM on some key services such as:

16- had 4 brand new MCV' evolution buses for branded the super 16 (this has been lost and replaced with Hybrids which i think have just ended up on the service due to the emmission ruling in Jan) MCV's exported to New Zealand.
002- 6 branded centro's with a very catchy 002 branding which still remains.
142/401E- both had specific solo's branded stourbridge shuttle and yew tree connection, both services have lost their branding and now often just see 10+ old darts.
301- seemed to have their own dedicated cadets 201-7 which now seem to end up shared still on the 301 and 4 services.
56/202- have royale centro's dedicated to the services which remain but were intially for the 9 service and after that havent really settled on one particular service and still end up on services like the 301 and previously the 417 which I havent got a clue why there were needed on there.
404E- had 10 striking purple black country connection MCV evolution buses all have been exported to New Zealand and since then the 4 service see's anything that's available at Tividale for the day.
Also red diamond had their own 9 mcv's which have also been exported to New Zealand.

So the innovative brands have mostly been lost along with the buses and have been replaced by buses which are over 10 years old in most cases and with people posting their turnover and profits do Rotala have the finances for exansion or even any new buses especially with the cadets for sale. In my opinion unless a significant financial injection happens especially for the West Midlands bus operations how are they going to develop for the future, services like the 4/56/002/301/40/42/43 specifically I have noticed to be very well used and must be making a significant profit surely enough for some investment on these services.

I agree with you Ash. Rotala have just had another £11 million pound loan so surely time for some investment in the WM region. They need to buy good solid reliable buses-not optares or stuff they dont want and just buy because its going cheap. They could also do well to transfer the centros from wessex back to birmingham and replace the buses in bristol if only the operations there can justify new buses. They also need to buy at least one solid money making operation-like wigan was-to bring in some cash. They also need to have managers out watching the 50 and 16 and why they dont make as much money as they should do. They need to repaint a few more centros into the nifty livery-the ovs centro and the pzh one as well and fight hard to try to get greenbus off the route.

Peter123,

How far do you think £11 million is going to go? Rotala have already spent £1.8 Million of it buying the Avonmouth Depot which was previously leased, so the remaining funds are already down to £9.2 Million, Rotala need to concentrate on improving the profitability at their existing operations before attempting to buy in to any new areas, the profit margins they make across the group are way below average. The most they should consider buying is smaller independents to use as bolt on operations that will help to strengthen their market share / profitability in existing areas. They should certainly steer clear of anything First are looking to sell, as they don't have the funding to invest in large quantities of new vehicles, at present neither do they seem to be able to turn around the financial fortunes of existing businesses to achieve even average profit margins. Rotala Plc stock market valuation is currently worth less than £16.1 million of debt the group currently owes (@ 44.5p /share = Mcap £15.7 Million)

Their West Midlands bus business has been in decline for a number of years with the total fleet size / routes operated shrinking year on year, they don't seem to be prepared to do anything to try & stem the decline, instead simply just giving up & withdrawing off routes the latest being the 37 & 97 etc