Rotala Management - Questions & Answers

[winston]

Who else is there to have a go on the 97 other than possibly Claribels? Do they have capacity at their depot to expand any further?

1) Names have been put forward. Some spoof, some have thought about it.

2) Nope, full to the brim at current premises. Possible to outstation more at Airparks I suppose.

Cheers Dave,

I thought that was case with Claribels depot

[winston]

Who else is there to have a go on the 97 other than possibly Claribels? Do they have capacity at their depot to expand any further?

1) Names have been put forward. Some spoof, some have thought about it.

Yes, I remember being told that Arriva were going on the 97s last year....still waiting!

Arriva don't seem very intent of starting a bus war with NX at the moment, and obviously took fright at NX's Cannock tender wins....

[Steveminor]

It's not the first time they have thought about running the 97 though. A fair few years ago they actually registered the 96 as it was then, this was at the time when Serverse ran the 96/97 against TWM. They ended up cancelling the registration when Serverse threatened an all out bus war in Tamworth matching Arriva bus for bus on the entire town network.
IMHO if they chose to run the 97 now then NX would just do what Serverse threatened & take Tamworth off the, so I doubt they would take the risk.

[winston]

It's not the first time they have thought about running the 97 though. A fair few years ago they actually registered the 96 as it was then, this was at the time when Serverse ran the 96/97 against TWM. They ended up cancelling the registration when Serverse threatened an all out bus war in Tamworth matching Arriva bus for bus on the entire town network.
IMHO if they chose to run the 97 now then NX would just do what Serverse threatened & take Tamworth off the, so I doubt they would take the risk.

That is one of the big problems that Arriva have should they decide to go head to head against NX. NX could retaliate in Arriva strongholds such as Telford (from WN), Tamworth (from PB) & Cannock (from WA). Judging by their reaction to NX winning Cannock tenders, I doubt they'll now make a move......

[Steveminor]

I think we may see rotala taking more tentative steps with competing with NX for the same reason.
It wouldn't take much for NX to cruise down the road to redditch or Kidderminster.
In fact let's ask Simon.
What is your position now towards defending your new territories, would you now look at less competition with the big groups to try & prevent them attacking you or is it still fair game to attack NX & the like?

[andy]

It's not the first time they have thought about running the 97 though. A fair few years ago they actually registered the 96 as it was then, this was at the time when Serverse ran the 96/97 against TWM. They ended up cancelling the registration when Serverse threatened an all out bus war in Tamworth matching Arriva bus for bus on the entire town network.
IMHO if they chose to run the 97 now then NX would just do what Serverse threatened & take Tamworth off the, so I doubt they would take the risk.

I love the constant assertions on here that any old Tom Dick or Harry can just roll up in an Arriva area and take over it, and that Arriva will never make any moves in the market 'just incase....'

What a load of balderdash. Do you want me to list the operators that have engaged Arriva in Tamworth and been blown out of the water?

[PM]

3.   There are two reasons why

1.   We expected the Competition Commission report, to have a greater impact on the Multi-Operator ticketing in the West Midlands.  It didn't.   

 

Here we have it from the horse's mouth..... this is why no operator will ever make any serious inroads into NX's monopoly. And why Rotala in particular chooses to make its investment and concentrate it resources in other areas, where they can actually achieve a decent market share.  I don't think people realise how much of a monopoly NX have achieved via the lack of multi operator ticketing in this area. It simply doesn't happen anywhere else.

I worked at Long Acre before i moved out of Birmingham and whe Central Connect did the 17's 37's and 97's NXWM didnt like it . We carried so many in the peaks, passengers loved it as our lil Darts would get them from A to B quicker and with less hassle than NXWM. The livery designs were good too. Its a shame that NXWM have such a hold on the area, passengers and enthusiasts think this is great but in reality its pants. Theres so much potential with Rotala if no one believes me then just look at their Preston operations.

I would have said that the 17/97 did a lot lot better than the 37 and I know I always used to catch central connect instead of nx on these routes as they were just far more pleasant to travel on-cleaner, faster and no people smoking weed on the routes which is always nice. Connect drivers were and still are nice and the liveries eye catching-I think the rotala effort on these routes was textbook-just a shame it went downhill so fast-replacing the darts with solos may have been a good plan but really they are too small and the livery easily missed-if you're competing, a smart bit boring livery-like the blue-doesnt seem to be what you want. You want something bold, bright and noticable even if it doesnt look great. And I agree-their monopoly isnt at all good. And finally someone agrees with me!! I do believe rotala have a lot of potential and have achieved a lot since their formation.

[Westy]

It's not the first time they have thought about running the 97 though. A fair few years ago they actually registered the 96 as it was then, this was at the time when Serverse ran the 96/97 against TWM. They ended up cancelling the registration when Serverse threatened an all out bus war in Tamworth matching Arriva bus for bus on the entire town network.
IMHO if they chose to run the 97 now then NX would just do what Serverse threatened & take Tamworth off the, so I doubt they would take the risk.

That is one of the big problems that Arriva have should they decide to go head to head against NX. NX could retaliate in Arriva strongholds such as Telford (from WN), Tamworth (from PB) & Cannock (from WA). Judging by their reaction to NX winning Cannock tenders, I doubt they'll now make a move......

Don't NX have capacity issues in Brum anyway?

A few what would've been Perry Barr routes are now operated by Walsall thesedays!

Dead mileage issues maybe too?

[winston]

It's not the first time they have thought about running the 97 though. A fair few years ago they actually registered the 96 as it was then, this was at the time when Serverse ran the 96/97 against TWM. They ended up cancelling the registration when Serverse threatened an all out bus war in Tamworth matching Arriva bus for bus on the entire town network.
IMHO if they chose to run the 97 now then NX would just do what Serverse threatened & take Tamworth off the, so I doubt they would take the risk.

I love the constant assertions on here that any old Tom Dick or Harry can just roll up in an Arriva area and take over it, and that Arriva will never make any moves in the market 'just incase....'

What a load of balderdash. Do you want me to list the operators that have engaged Arriva in Tamworth and been blown out of the water?

Andy, but any old Tom Dick or Harry can roll up in an Arriva area, just they they could in an NX area. I was purely going on Arriva's reaction to the NX Cannock tender wins, they've effectively blocked NX from entering Cannock by taking on journey's commercially that they previously wanted support for

The majority of the attacks in Tamworth in the past have come from smaller independent that don't have the finance to throw at any new operation that the big groups have, anyhow it's probably unlikely to happen anyway.

[winston]

It's not the first time they have thought about running the 97 though. A fair few years ago they actually registered the 96 as it was then, this was at the time when Serverse ran the 96/97 against TWM. They ended up cancelling the registration when Serverse threatened an all out bus war in Tamworth matching Arriva bus for bus on the entire town network.
IMHO if they chose to run the 97 now then NX would just do what Serverse threatened & take Tamworth off the, so I doubt they would take the risk.

That is one of the big problems that Arriva have should they decide to go head to head against NX. NX could retaliate in Arriva strongholds such as Telford (from WN), Tamworth (from PB) & Cannock (from WA). Judging by their reaction to NX winning Cannock tenders, I doubt they'll now make a move......

Don't NX have capacity issues in Brum anyway?

A few what would've been Perry Barr routes are now operated by Walsall thesedays!

Dead mileage issues maybe too?

PB are full to the brim, but things can always be moved around show the need arise, WN & WA should both have capacity. It's is more than likely than such a thing would ever happen now, as war bus wars are a thing of the past & generally the big groups don't normally tread on each other toe's.

Dead mileage would be cheaper than setting up an new base local to any new operating area

[dayvid]

Who else is there to have a go on the 97 other than possibly Claribels? Do they have capacity at their depot to expand any further?

1) Names have been put forward. Some spoof, some have thought about it.

Yes, I remember being told that Arriva were going on the 97s last year....still waiting!

Tony i heard the exact same rumour

[andy]

The majority of the attacks in Tamworth in the past have come from smaller independent that don't have the finance to throw at any new operation that the big groups have, anyhow it's probably unlikely to happen anyway.

And that is the point Winston. All out bus wars are far too expensive for large bus groups with shareholders to answer to, and generally result in very little long term gain.  I can't ever see NX and Arriva properly engaging each other in such a way. The furthest this will go is the odd bit of tit for tat on largely worthless tenders such as the Cannock episode. Every now and then they will clash over a tender that both went for, but 9 times out of 10 only one operator or the other will have been interested in the tender.

Each operator will give a little and take a little. The exercise is all about market share, not predominance. And the same will apply with Rotala now that they appear to have given up on the commercial challenge to NX while the scandal of Centro's cosy relationship with them remains not dealt with.

[PM]

The majority of the attacks in Tamworth in the past have come from smaller independent that don't have the finance to throw at any new operation that the big groups have, anyhow it's probably unlikely to happen anyway.

And that is the point Winston. All out bus wars are far too expensive for large bus groups with shareholders to answer to, and generally result in very little long term gain.  I can't ever see NX and Arriva properly engaging each other in such a way. The furthest this will go is the odd bit of tit for tat on largely worthless tenders such as the Cannock episode. Every now and then they will clash over a tender that both went for, but 9 times out of 10 only one operator or the other will have been interested in the tender.

Each operator will give a little and take a little. The exercise is all about market share, not predominance. And the same will apply with Rotala now that they appear to have given up on the commercial challenge to NX while the scandal of Centro's cosy relationship with them remains not dealt with.

I don't think rotala have given up at all-they have just faced up for the fact that no listed company can make a return and invest by competing on routes like the 97 dominated by NX. Not to say they arent profitable, but they aren't sufficiently profitable to ensure consistent investment in new buses etc. Smaller operators with lower overheads can but rotala are trapped in the sense that gwm were as well-they are essentially operating routes run by small companies like petes with leased buses and low costs with their own buses which are heavier and possibly use more fuel with larger overheads. Thats the problem and as ever Andy I agree about NX and centro-when rotala entered the WM they had started to change that, as cento nominated them for that award they got and there was a lot of publicity with centro but now things seem to have returned to how they were.....

[winston]

The majority of the attacks in Tamworth in the past have come from smaller independent that don't have the finance to throw at any new operation that the big groups have, anyhow it's probably unlikely to happen anyway.

And that is the point Winston. All out bus wars are far too expensive for large bus groups with shareholders to answer to, and generally result in very little long term gain.  I can't ever see NX and Arriva properly engaging each other in such a way. The furthest this will go is the odd bit of tit for tat on largely worthless tenders such as the Cannock episode. Every now and then they will clash over a tender that both went for, but 9 times out of 10 only one operator or the other will have been interested in the tender.

Each operator will give a little and take a little. The exercise is all about market share, not predominance. And the same will apply with Rotala now that they appear to have given up on the commercial challenge to NX while the scandal of Centro's cosy relationship with them remains not dealt with.

Andy, agreed it is unlikely that it would ever be more than a potential threat than a reality, bus wars were a thing of the 1990's when costs were much lower i.e. fuel/insurance etc not in the current climate. As you say the bigger groups have the odd spat here & there but no setting up on each other's patch generally.

As Simon has confirmed the competition commission have looked in to the local bus market with case studies by Rotala but haven't deemed it necessary to intervene in the West Midlands with NX's market share/ dominance etc

[PM]

The majority of the attacks in Tamworth in the past have come from smaller independent that don't have the finance to throw at any new operation that the big groups have, anyhow it's probably unlikely to happen anyway.

And that is the point Winston. All out bus wars are far too expensive for large bus groups with shareholders to answer to, and generally result in very little long term gain.  I can't ever see NX and Arriva properly engaging each other in such a way. The furthest this will go is the odd bit of tit for tat on largely worthless tenders such as the Cannock episode. Every now and then they will clash over a tender that both went for, but 9 times out of 10 only one operator or the other will have been interested in the tender.

Each operator will give a little and take a little. The exercise is all about market share, not predominance. And the same will apply with Rotala now that they appear to have given up on the commercial challenge to NX while the scandal of Centro's cosy relationship with them remains not dealt with.

Andy, agreed it is unlikely that it would ever be more than a potential threat than a reality, bus wars were a thing of the 1990's when costs were much lower i.e. fuel/insurance etc not in the current climate. As you say the bigger groups have the odd spat here & there but no setting up on each other's patch generally.

As Simon has confirmed the competition commission have looked in to the local bus market with case studies by Rotala but haven't deemed it necessary to intervene in the West Midlands with NX's market share/ dominance etc

Things can always change though-who's to say that in 2015 if(when) labour gain power that we couldnt even see reregulation? I wouldnt be in favour of it but it could happen quite possibly with all what is going on in tyne and wear. And if we're honest, has the competition commission ever done anything useful in the transport world? I think not-that report they did wasted a lot of money and said absolutely nothing. Personally, I'd far rather listen to Roger French than anyone from the cc as he offers and has offered in brighton practical proposals to get people using buses.