would it make sense to agglomerate routes?

[keyy927]

(if this thread goes elsewhere pls lmk)

i was wondering if it would make sense to agglomerate routes to make them 1 route? for instance (please ignore the fact that this includes both nxwm and diamond), the 202, 002, 4H and 4M can be agglomerated to make a single route from rednal to merry hill.

i got bored and decided to make an idea:

7: Merry Hill to Hayley Green
new route running every 20 minutes to replace 002 between Merry Hill and Halesowen, and 4H between Halesowen and Hayley Green

X7: Merry Hill to Bromsgrove
new route running every 20 minutes to replace the 4M between Merry Hill and Blackheath, 4H between Blackheath and Halesowen, 002 between Halesowen and Bartley Green, and 202 between Bartley Green and Frankley. from Frankley, it runs up Frankley Beeches Lane, down Tessall Lane, then follows the X20 to Bromsgrove (1ph), the other two terminating at Leach Green Lane

X9: Rowley to Redditch
the rowley section is kinda hard to explain so i'm gonna avoid, but the segment between Blackheath and Bartley Green is the same as the X7, then runs to Weoley Castle following the 002, then to Northfield following the old 46, then to Rednal Island before u-turning through Cofton Hackett up Groveley Lane to Longbridge Lane, then the fastest route to Redditch Bus Station past the Abbey Sports Ground. Rowley and Redditch are served hourly, Blackheath to Rednal 3x hourly. runs every 20 mins.

other changes:
002: cut
4: more services between West Brom and Blackheath to account for removal of 4H and 4M
4H: cut
4M: cut
202: curtailed to Frankley from Bromsgrove

it would open up more cross city links whilst still being viable as it taps into existing consumer bases at the same frequency that they currently exist, there may just be a couple more changes (which can open up town centres as more people will change buses, potentially more shopping) - i also did calculations:

X7 full length - 1h 54m
X7 Merry Hill to Rednal - 1h 25m
X7 Blackheath to Rednal - 56m (late night)
X9 full length - 1h 51m
X9 Blackheath to Rednal - 1h 9m

also if you have any ideas for routes that can do this, please let me know

[2206]

Don't think Rowley to Redditch is going to be viable or Merry Hill to Bromsgrove.
Especially 3 an hour.
Longbridge to Redditch seems to barely be able to sustain the tendered 182/183 using vans let alone 3bph. The X city line probably being the reason for that maybe.

[karl724223]

(if this thread goes elsewhere pls lmk)

i was wondering if it would make sense to agglomerate routes to make them 1 route? for instance (please ignore the fact that this includes both nxwm and diamond), the 202, 002, 4H and 4M can be agglomerated to make a single route from rednal to merry hill.

i got bored and decided to make an idea:

7: Merry Hill to Hayley Green
new route running every 20 minutes to replace 002 between Merry Hill and Halesowen, and 4H between Halesowen and Hayley Green

X7: Merry Hill to Bromsgrove
new route running every 20 minutes to replace the 4M between Merry Hill and Blackheath, 4H between Blackheath and Halesowen, 002 between Halesowen and Bartley Green, and 202 between Bartley Green and Frankley. from Frankley, it runs up Frankley Beeches Lane, down Tessall Lane, then follows the X20 to Bromsgrove (1ph), the other two terminating at Leach Green Lane

X9: Rowley to Redditch
the rowley section is kinda hard to explain so i'm gonna avoid, but the segment between Blackheath and Bartley Green is the same as the X7, then runs to Weoley Castle following the 002, then to Northfield following the old 46, then to Rednal Island before u-turning through Cofton Hackett up Groveley Lane to Longbridge Lane, then the fastest route to Redditch Bus Station past the Abbey Sports Ground. Rowley and Redditch are served hourly, Blackheath to Rednal 3x hourly. runs every 20 mins.

other changes:
002: cut
4: more services between West Brom and Blackheath to account for removal of 4H and 4M
4H: cut
4M: cut
202: curtailed to Frankley from Bromsgrove

it would open up more cross city links whilst still being viable as it taps into existing consumer bases at the same frequency that they currently exist, there may just be a couple more changes (which can open up town centres as more people will change buses, potentially more shopping) - i also did calculations:

X7 full length - 1h 54m
X7 Merry Hill to Rednal - 1h 25m
X7 Blackheath to Rednal - 56m (late night)
X9 full length - 1h 51m
X9 Blackheath to Rednal - 1h 9m

also if you have any ideas for routes that can do this, please let me know

Don't give up your day time job

[keyy927]

Don't think Rowley to Redditch is going to be viable or Merry Hill to Bromsgrove.
Especially 3 an hour.
Longbridge to Redditch seems to barely be able to sustain the tendered 182/183 using vans let alone 3bph. The X city line probably being the reason for that maybe.

well between longbridge and bromsgrove / redditch both of the buses would have been 1 per hour with the rest ending in rednal, and rowley to blackheath would also be 1 per hour, it was more just toying with services and seeing how they could agglomerate together

[keyy927]

Don't give up your day time job

i wasn't going to? i just have some spare time every now and again and like to imagine what routes (hypothetically) could exist, and i'd never played with the idea of combining multiple routes together it was never a "i want this route now and should be top planner thing" it was just a hypothetical jeez

[Gareth]

If cross city routes worked, we would have them. They try them periodically and they always get split up again.
It's bad enough that there was/is talk of reintroducing various cross city routes including the such absolute nonsense as a combined 50/87.

[Mike K]

(if this thread goes elsewhere pls lmk)

i was wondering if it would make sense to agglomerate routes to make them 1 route? for instance (please ignore the fact that this includes both nxwm and diamond), the 202, 002, 4H and 4M can be agglomerated to make a single route from rednal to merry hill.

i got bored and decided to make an idea:

7: Merry Hill to Hayley Green
new route running every 20 minutes to replace 002 between Merry Hill and Halesowen, and 4H between Halesowen and Hayley Green

X7: Merry Hill to Bromsgrove
new route running every 20 minutes to replace the 4M between Merry Hill and Blackheath, 4H between Blackheath and Halesowen, 002 between Halesowen and Bartley Green, and 202 between Bartley Green and Frankley. from Frankley, it runs up Frankley Beeches Lane, down Tessall Lane, then follows the X20 to Bromsgrove (1ph), the other two terminating at Leach Green Lane

X9: Rowley to Redditch
the rowley section is kinda hard to explain so i'm gonna avoid, but the segment between Blackheath and Bartley Green is the same as the X7, then runs to Weoley Castle following the 002, then to Northfield following the old 46, then to Rednal Island before u-turning through Cofton Hackett up Groveley Lane to Longbridge Lane, then the fastest route to Redditch Bus Station past the Abbey Sports Ground. Rowley and Redditch are served hourly, Blackheath to Rednal 3x hourly. runs every 20 mins.

other changes:
002: cut
4: more services between West Brom and Blackheath to account for removal of 4H and 4M
4H: cut
4M: cut
202: curtailed to Frankley from Bromsgrove

it would open up more cross city links whilst still being viable as it taps into existing consumer bases at the same frequency that they currently exist, there may just be a couple more changes (which can open up town centres as more people will change buses, potentially more shopping) - i also did calculations:

X7 full length - 1h 54m
X7 Merry Hill to Rednal - 1h 25m
X7 Blackheath to Rednal - 56m (late night)
X9 full length - 1h 51m
X9 Blackheath to Rednal - 1h 9m

also if you have any ideas for routes that can do this, please let me know

While you're at it, why not combine the 48 with whatever random route in the Northfield area to create helpful new links from the likes of Warley and Bearwood to somewhere like Hawkesley? 

Oh hang on a minute...

[Justin Tyme]

Well ...

When I was a teenager - many years ago - I used to think about radical new routes, and I'm sure I'm not the only person to have done this.

I once thought about a huge sort of "Outer Outer Circle" linking Solihull, Northfield, Halesowen, West Bromwich,  Sutton Coldfield, Airport and back to Solihull. At the time it would have taken around 4 hours. I kept it to myself.

I suppose it is theoretically possible to link anywhere to anywhere. But would they be links that people want? And take into account that the more agglomeration you make, the more difficult timekeeping tends to be. That's why routes like the 11A/11C Outer Circle have been split.

You could try a slightly different challenge. If you were a TfWM planner charged with planning a new bus route network for franchising, what would you come up with?  And why?

[keyy927]

Well ...

When I was a teenager - many years ago - I used to think about radical new routes, and I'm sure I'm not the only person to have done this.

I once thought about a huge sort of "Outer Outer Circle" linking Solihull, Northfield, Halesowen, West Bromwich,  Sutton Coldfield, Airport and back to Solihull. At the time it would have taken around 4 hours. I kept it to myself.

I suppose it is theoretically possible to link anywhere to anywhere. But would they be links that people want? And take into account that the more agglomeration you make, the more difficult timekeeping tends to be. That's why routes like the 11A/11C Outer Circle have been split.

You could try a slightly different challenge. If you were a TfWM planner charged with planning a new bus route network for franchising, what would you come up with?  And why?

i did this exact same route except i had it through longbridge and frankley instead of northfield. it's refreshing to see someone who isn't riding a jackhammer about it. as for a whole network, i haven't ever actually thought that far into it as it was always a radical change here or a town there, but i could definitely get back to you on that. 

[Rachvince53]

I would suggest extending one bus per hour on the 16 (Wolves-Stourbridge) to Kidderminster via Kinver replacing the current 242 and 580. 

[Zeddan]

Well ...

When I was a teenager - many years ago - I used to think about radical new routes, and I'm sure I'm not the only person to have done this.

I once thought about a huge sort of "Outer Outer Circle" linking Solihull, Northfield, Halesowen, West Bromwich,  Sutton Coldfield, Airport and back to Solihull. At the time it would have taken around 4 hours. I kept it to myself.

I suppose it is theoretically possible to link anywhere to anywhere. But would they be links that people want? And take into account that the more agglomeration you make, the more difficult timekeeping tends to be. That's why routes like the 11A/11C Outer Circle have been split.

You could try a slightly different challenge. If you were a TfWM planner charged with planning a new bus route network for franchising, what would you come up with?  And why?

Like the 360 in Cov, amazing in theory, and actually having demand, but not great in the timetabling department. Interestingly the 51 and 60 seem to be two of the most consistently on-time routes in the city now that they aren't combined into one. 

[GoldenSquid]

I once thought about a huge sort of "Outer Outer Circle" linking Solihull, Northfield, Halesowen, West Bromwich,  Sutton Coldfield, Airport and back to Solihull. At the time it would have taken around 4 hours. I kept it to myself.

I suppose it is theoretically possible to link anywhere to anywhere. But would they be links that people want? And take into account that the more agglomeration you make, the more difficult timekeeping tends to be. That's why routes like the 11A/11C Outer Circle have been split.

You could try a slightly different challenge. If you were a TfWM planner charged with planning a new bus route network for franchising, what would you come up with?  And why?

I thought about how would Birmingham do a Superloop network recently and would it actually be worth it.

[GoldenSquid]

Like the 360 in Cov, amazing in theory, and actually having demand, but not great in the timetabling department. Interestingly the 51 and 60 seem to be two of the most consistently on-time routes in the city now that they aren't combined into one.

Long routes don't work anymore, there's too much traffic. As well as bad drivers causing issues like crashes or constant random roadworks. It's why I think they've started to cut cross city routes, such as the ones in Coventry (6/13/16)

[BlackCountryBusSpotter]

(if this thread goes elsewhere pls lmk)

i was wondering if it would make sense to agglomerate routes to make them 1 route? for instance (please ignore the fact that this includes both nxwm and diamond), the 202, 002, 4H and 4M can be agglomerated to make a single route from rednal to merry hill.

i got bored and decided to make an idea:

7: Merry Hill to Hayley Green
new route running every 20 minutes to replace 002 between Merry Hill and Halesowen, and 4H between Halesowen and Hayley Green

X7: Merry Hill to Bromsgrove
new route running every 20 minutes to replace the 4M between Merry Hill and Blackheath, 4H between Blackheath and Halesowen, 002 between Halesowen and Bartley Green, and 202 between Bartley Green and Frankley. from Frankley, it runs up Frankley Beeches Lane, down Tessall Lane, then follows the X20 to Bromsgrove (1ph), the other two terminating at Leach Green Lane

X9: Rowley to Redditch
the rowley section is kinda hard to explain so i'm gonna avoid, but the segment between Blackheath and Bartley Green is the same as the X7, then runs to Weoley Castle following the 002, then to Northfield following the old 46, then to Rednal Island before u-turning through Cofton Hackett up Groveley Lane to Longbridge Lane, then the fastest route to Redditch Bus Station past the Abbey Sports Ground. Rowley and Redditch are served hourly, Blackheath to Rednal 3x hourly. runs every 20 mins.

other changes:
002: cut
4: more services between West Brom and Blackheath to account for removal of 4H and 4M
4H: cut
4M: cut
202: curtailed to Frankley from Bromsgrove

it would open up more cross city links whilst still being viable as it taps into existing consumer bases at the same frequency that they currently exist, there may just be a couple more changes (which can open up town centres as more people will change buses, potentially more shopping) - i also did calculations:

X7 full length - 1h 54m
X7 Merry Hill to Rednal - 1h 25m
X7 Blackheath to Rednal - 56m (late night)
X9 full length - 1h 51m
X9 Blackheath to Rednal - 1h 9m

also if you have any ideas for routes that can do this, please let me know

What do you propose replaces the Walsall to Merry Hill link then or The More Direct route that the 3 doesn't serve between West Bromwich and Merry Hill or What do you propose replaces the West Bromwich to Halesowen/Hayley Green Route. You can't do all of these because a big area like West Bromwich loses frequency to Merry Hill that's a busy section of Route, as to is Halesowen, the 3 isn't Direct, Walsall to Merry Hill is less of a concern because I doubt anyone uses it from end to end and would probably connect with the 4M somewhere along the route and the 4H to get Halesowen or Walsall or Merry Hill, but the West Bromwich section is really busy so what do you propose for that

[keyy927]

What do you propose replaces the Walsall to Merry Hill link then or The More Direct route that the 3 doesn't serve between West Bromwich and Merry Hill or What do you propose replaces the West Bromwich to Halesowen/Hayley Green Route. You can't do all of these because a big area like West Bromwich loses frequency to Merry Hill that's a busy section of Route, as to is Halesowen, the 3 isn't Direct, Walsall to Merry Hill is less of a concern because I doubt anyone uses it from end to end and would probably connect with the 4M somewhere along the route and the 4H to get Halesowen or Walsall or Merry Hill, but the West Bromwich section is really busy so what do you propose for that

the general idea was to use a hub model, eg, in this case, blackheath would be the hub where services connect to one another and then people change over their services, for a couple of reasons
- by agglomerating shorter routes into longer ones, more areas are accessible on the same service. 
- if the routes aren't being used end to end, and they get agglomerated, the new links may be more beneficial than the old links (obviously without passenger numbers i'm none the wiser, and this was mostly fantastical anyways)

the X9 draft was originally meant to go to west bromwich at the same frequency as the 4H but it wouldn't fit into the timetable, like at all. so for west bromwich to halesowen, it'd be down to one of two things:
- passengers change at blackheath market from the 4 (which would be increased in frequency to match current demand on the blackheath corridor) onto X7/X9
- the 4 can be extended to halesowen/hayley via long lane and mucklow hill as the fastest (?) route, whilst the X7/X9 run along coombs lane as the current 4H does. extending the 4 to hayley green would increase services as the 7 would go there from merry hill.

in terms of merry hill, it's somewhat similar.
from halesowen, frequency increases as you now have the 7 running the 002 route and the X7 using 4H/4M roads between halesowen, blackheath and merry hill.
for west bromwich from merry hill, a number of things could happen:
- passengers use the 74 and then change onto the 8
- passengers use the 3 until blackheath and change to the X7
- a new route is formed (if it isn't absurdly long) that uses new birmingham road, birmingham road, and duncan edwards way, which would also link tividale and burnt tree (which don't have direct links as all buses go to dudley)
- the 4M stays, instead using throne road, portway road (with the 3), hawes lane, siviters road, and moor road before rejoining its current route at rowley hospital. (the 4M changes granted that the X7 stays, as the blackheath merry hill line is staying)

idk i'd have to take a deeper look into it considering i just used google maps and quickly skimmed roads and bus combinations. again, the entire thing was in theory although i do like the challenge you presented