Birmingham Connected

[Tony]

You will never persuade the vast majority to leave their cars behind & take public transport unless yo radically increase the costs of car use, which no British government will do for the very real fear of being voted out of power at the next election. Buses/trams & trains will never be able to be flexible enough for what most people want. There is now more car usage than ever before while bus patronage has seen only a few miserly % increase trams not really proving profitable & rail use dropping as fares rise experientially.

not sure where you have that from?
Rail use has risen every year on all types of services despite fare rises, and despite the recession

Rail use in this area will continue to rise aswell while the purchase of a ticket is a voluntary arrangement, as it virtually has been for well over a year now. None of the operators or Network Rail are going to be remotely interested in getting passengers to pay while the subsidies keep flying in.

Fare paying rail use has risen as well!

While I too have a problem with London Midland's revenue protection (or lack of it) ocassionally they do a couple of things that make me smile. After I reported to them about the first train of the day filling up with night shift staff from Rugeley Amazon so people at Cannocki had to stand who knew only a few had to pay each day just because of the numbers of them the conductor could not get round for a few days now LM have set up a barrier at Rugeley Trent Valley at 6am with a couple of RPIs only letting people onto the station once they had purchased a ticket. Number of Amazon workers on the train has reduced dramatically!

[PM]

You will never persuade the vast majority to leave their cars behind & take public transport unless yo radically increase the costs of car use, which no British government will do for the very real fear of being voted out of power at the next election. Buses/trams & trains will never be able to be flexible enough for what most people want. There is now more car usage than ever before while bus patronage has seen only a few miserly % increase trams not really proving profitable & rail use dropping as fares rise experientially.
My full time job is a traffic warden & in the 2 years I have done it the amount of tickets issued has doubled not because I have done anything different but because more cars feel the need to park on double yellow lines & disabled spaces as more & more frequently legitimate parking spaces have become harder to find.
I say stop spending vast some of money trying to get new ridership & spend it where it is most needed, those unfortunate people that have lost their bus service to cut backs (to release funds for these schemes).

As seems to often be the case, I agree with Steve on this! Grand initiatives taking money away from BSOG, concessionary pass reimbursement rates. Government policy, as several operators have pointed out, has taken money away from basic service provision to pump into grand schemes that will never happen.

First Bristol are experiencing 17.6% growth through better buses and better services with simpler fares. Did Midland Metro lead to such increased passenger volumes across public transport?

[Tony]

You will never persuade the vast majority to leave their cars behind & take public transport unless yo radically increase the costs of car use, which no British government will do for the very real fear of being voted out of power at the next election. Buses/trams & trains will never be able to be flexible enough for what most people want. There is now more car usage than ever before while bus patronage has seen only a few miserly % increase trams not really proving profitable & rail use dropping as fares rise experientially.
My full time job is a traffic warden & in the 2 years I have done it the amount of tickets issued has doubled not because I have done anything different but because more cars feel the need to park on double yellow lines & disabled spaces as more & more frequently legitimate parking spaces have become harder to find.
I say stop spending vast some of money trying to get new ridership & spend it where it is most needed, those unfortunate people that have lost their bus service to cut backs (to release funds for these schemes).

As seems to often be the case, I agree with Steve on this! Grand initiatives taking money away from BSOG, concessionary pass reimbursement rates. Government policy, as several operators have pointed out, has taken money away from basic service provision to pump into grand schemes that will never happen.

First Bristol are experiencing 17.6% growth through better buses and better services with simpler fares. Did Midland Metro lead to such increased passenger volumes across public transport?

Trouble is a lot of money taken out of those things was to do what Steve wants to do 'Rural Bus Subsidy Grant (RBSG)' was put in to provide exactly what he wants to do, but ended up paying for empty buses running around while subsidies were cut for more important routes.

As you have pointed out Better buses/services increases bus use, hence the Birmingham connected idea which everyone seems to be saying is a waste of money.
The other thing people forget is bus companies have to permanently find new customers just to stand still as some of their existing passengers are either passing away or buying cars, so if you follow Steve's idea above all that happens is passenger numbers keep decreasing and slowly dying. Most of the companies he has been involved in only want to pinch existing passengers off other operators though and not looking for any new ones of their own

[PM]

You will never persuade the vast majority to leave their cars behind & take public transport unless yo radically increase the costs of car use, which no British government will do for the very real fear of being voted out of power at the next election. Buses/trams & trains will never be able to be flexible enough for what most people want. There is now more car usage than ever before while bus patronage has seen only a few miserly % increase trams not really proving profitable & rail use dropping as fares rise experientially.
My full time job is a traffic warden & in the 2 years I have done it the amount of tickets issued has doubled not because I have done anything different but because more cars feel the need to park on double yellow lines & disabled spaces as more & more frequently legitimate parking spaces have become harder to find.
I say stop spending vast some of money trying to get new ridership & spend it where it is most needed, those unfortunate people that have lost their bus service to cut backs (to release funds for these schemes).

As seems to often be the case, I agree with Steve on this! Grand initiatives taking money away from BSOG, concessionary pass reimbursement rates. Government policy, as several operators have pointed out, has taken money away from basic service provision to pump into grand schemes that will never happen.

First Bristol are experiencing 17.6% growth through better buses and better services with simpler fares. Did Midland Metro lead to such increased passenger volumes across public transport?

Trouble is a lot of money taken out of those things was to do what Steve wants to do 'Rural Bus Subsidy Grant (RBSG)' was put in to provide exactly what he wants to do, but ended up paying for empty buses running around while subsidies were cut for more important routes.

As you have pointed out Better buses/services increases bus use, hence the Birmingham connected idea which everyone seems to be saying is a waste of money.
The other thing people forget is bus companies have to permanently find new customers just to stand still as some of their existing passengers are either passing away or buying cars, so if you follow Steve's idea above all that happens is passenger numbers keep decreasing and slowly dying. Most of the companies he has been involved in only want to pinch existing passengers off other operators though and not looking for any new ones of their own

But I'm on about putting leather seats on buses, upping frequencies and cutting/simplifying fares and improving marketing to create growth ie cheaper stuff that makes a real difference.

Of course I appreciate companies should attract growth and I'm always pleased to hear of increasing passenger numbers.

I am just not in favour of vanity projects. Bus use wasn't lost due to lack of guided busways. It was lost due to slashed frequencies, increased fares and dirty, unreliable buses.

I'm absolutely with you on the end goal-think we just disagree on how to get there/what areas of expenditure should be prioritized.

[Tony]

You will never persuade the vast majority to leave their cars behind & take public transport unless yo radically increase the costs of car use, which no British government will do for the very real fear of being voted out of power at the next election. Buses/trams & trains will never be able to be flexible enough for what most people want. There is now more car usage than ever before while bus patronage has seen only a few miserly % increase trams not really proving profitable & rail use dropping as fares rise experientially.
My full time job is a traffic warden & in the 2 years I have done it the amount of tickets issued has doubled not because I have done anything different but because more cars feel the need to park on double yellow lines & disabled spaces as more & more frequently legitimate parking spaces have become harder to find.
I say stop spending vast some of money trying to get new ridership & spend it where it is most needed, those unfortunate people that have lost their bus service to cut backs (to release funds for these schemes).

As seems to often be the case, I agree with Steve on this! Grand initiatives taking money away from BSOG, concessionary pass reimbursement rates. Government policy, as several operators have pointed out, has taken money away from basic service provision to pump into grand schemes that will never happen.

First Bristol are experiencing 17.6% growth through better buses and better services with simpler fares. Did Midland Metro lead to such increased passenger volumes across public transport?

Trouble is a lot of money taken out of those things was to do what Steve wants to do 'Rural Bus Subsidy Grant (RBSG)' was put in to provide exactly what he wants to do, but ended up paying for empty buses running around while subsidies were cut for more important routes.

As you have pointed out Better buses/services increases bus use, hence the Birmingham connected idea which everyone seems to be saying is a waste of money.
The other thing people forget is bus companies have to permanently find new customers just to stand still as some of their existing passengers are either passing away or buying cars, so if you follow Steve's idea above all that happens is passenger numbers keep decreasing and slowly dying. Most of the companies he has been involved in only want to pinch existing passengers off other operators though and not looking for any new ones of their own

But I'm on about putting leather seats on buses, upping frequencies and cutting/simplifying fares and improving marketing to create growth ie cheaper stuff that makes a real difference.

Of course I appreciate companies should attract growth and I'm always pleased to hear of increasing passenger numbers.

I am just not in favour of vanity projects. Bus use wasn't lost due to lack of guided busways. It was lost due to slashed frequencies, increased fares and dirty, unreliable buses.

I'm absolutely with you on the end goal-think we just disagree on how to get there/what areas of expenditure should be prioritized.

I agree with you on all those, it is others I don't agree with. The one biggest thing that will get people out of their cars though is good bus priority measure on the roads. Sprint and other things include this, although I am very wary of the idea of 24m Bendibuses which cost more to buy and run than normal buses.

Completely the opposite of what is happening in Liverpool at the moment.

Most bus lanes don't not increase car journey times. They do extend the length of the queue of traffic which is what people see, and why some people are so against them.

An example of my statement above is the one leading up to Perry Barr roundabout (If it was used properly) on Birchfield Road. The bus lane finishes about 6 car lengths before the actual roundabout, so every time there is a gap in traffic on the roundabout two cars get out, one from each lane, that wouldn't change if the bus lane was removed, so the time taken to get out would be exactly the same for normal traffic. With the bus lane in use properly though all the vehicles are in one lane so the queue is twice as long compared to if the bus lane was removed, so to most people it looks twice as bad.

[PM]

I agree-I'm with you on Sprint. How is forcing people to stand going to increase ridership? Scrapping this system of transport had popular support in London-though non Borismaster deckers seem to struggle on busier routes eg 73.

People standing and this tube/cattletruck style approach won't work-people will give it a go, have to stand and jump back in their cars.

Leather seated e400's would create more growth imo-up the frequency, brand the route, have some onboard marketing. Any road improvements would be a bonus provided they are actually maintained and there is continuous investment-they're not just left to rust with broken RTI.

I personally doubt Sprint will ever actually happen...

I also agree on bus lanes-the ones in Selly Oak seem to help the bus quite considerably. Shame they don't continue through the high street and that the Bristol Road from Edgbaston Cricket Ground inwards isn't widened to allow for bus lanes.

When bus lanes are kept, again I think they're a good idea. What annoys me is when money is wasted building something that's not used, under used, never repaired or badly maintained/broken eg old RTI on BR.

[hartshill busman 724210]

I`m not sure that a scheme that for instance terminates at Quinton is the answer. I`ve driven the 9 and passengers do go beyond Quinton. Change onto a bus that might not be there how does that improve things? Even if its a late full bus at least your on it and should complete your journey in one go.

[winston]

I`m not sure that a scheme that for instance terminates at Quinton is the answer. I`ve driven the 9 and passengers do go beyond Quinton. Change onto a bus that might not be there how does that improve things? Even if its a late full bus at least your on it and should complete your journey in one go.

May be terminating at Halesowen might have been a better answer & provided far more onward journey options.

[monkeyjoe]

Longer term plan is to extend to Halesowen according to the documentation.

[D10]

I assumed that the Quinton route terminus in one of practicality. As this is Birmingham Connected and the Quinton Sprint is likely to be the first of these lines off the ground, it won't initially go past the Birmingham boundary as Birmingham City Council can of course take the responsibility for any road changes in their area.

Hopefully in time agreements will be able to be worked out with Dudley MBC to extend to Halesowen. In the same way deals will need to be done with the other councils to extend the routes into their areas with the appropriate highway improvements.

[monkeyjoe]

Isn't it more to do with issues with plans that are outside the Centro regions as opposed to the various councils. I think the Quinton project has already received the funding separate to the wider connected project and will be the trial or benchmark what ever you wanted call it. It is also worth noted that talking about the councils they are all on about clumping together to form a super power to avoid getting over taken by greater Manchester etc, very topical at the moment.

[Justin Tyme]

Add me to the people who are sceptical about Sprint.  Most people want a seat and they don't want an artificial change of vehicle forced upon them.  The Quinton Sprint will be limited stop, so what will serve all stops?  The 9, 140 and 141?  If so, that's surely the wrong way round.

It would be much better to have high quality double decks that can use the Sprint route and continue beyond - similar to the Cambridge Busway, which has been a great success (and definitely worth riding if you get the chance).