Connected City finalised map

[Tony]

I always thought that road was far too narrow and far too tight for a bus!

I'm sure it looked extremely tidy and functional on whatever software the desk monkey was using when he came up with it! He had probably never seen a bus, or the junction, and was using the dimensions of a Trident or something that someone had Googled for him....not a full length Eclipse.

This will be another part of what could be a jigsaw of gridlock unfortunately. The Carrs Lane/High St junction, the right turn into Albert St with the possibility of up to 4 or 5 buses being parked there, the numerous extra traffic lights along the Queensway (complete with 3 or 4 sequences to accomodate pedestrians) and the cramming in of too many buses into such a small area.

It's also noteworthy that in bus stations there are rules about how many bus movements can take place per stand in an hour / or by frequency, yet there are no such restrictions or rules in evidence here? What would they do if a new operator came along and registered the same frequency as NXWM on 3 or 4 of these services? It doesn't bear thinking about!

There are exactly the same rules being introduced in Birmingham as you quote are in use in Centro Bus Stations. Each stop can only have one departure every 5 minutes. That is why Claribels are getting a seperate 55/94 stop to the NXWM services. The new rules are also being enforced by VOSA and not by Centro so they can refuse any registration that duplicates an existing service using the same stop.

Incidently Centro's bus station rules can actually disadvantage passengers.
An operator currently runs a service every 15 minutes from a Bus Station to an estate nearby. No other operator runs from that bus station to the same estate so no competition involved. The operator wants to increase the frequency to every 10 minutes. Centro will not allow it because the stop is shared by another service going to a completely different place (not even one stop is duplicated) and the departure times will then clash. No other stand is available so passengers don't get their increase in frequency operator wants to provide.

This is a genuine ongoing case so I will not mention the route on here

[andy]

Well that sounds barmy, it should all be about passenger convenience and if the opportunity is there to make a service improvement bus station / stop politics should not be a priority. I also don't think competing operators should be forced onto other stands, not least because it confuses the hell out of passengers, especially if they're not local.

So Tony what would happen if a new operator wanted to register? Because I can't think of anywhere in this plan where there is spare capacity.

And what do you honestly think about some of my other concerns? Or aren't you allowed to say!! It's just I've seen this sort of exercise end in chaos time after time and this one I'm afraid has all the hallmarks, I really hope I'm wrong!!

[Gareth]

If each stop can only have 1 departure every 5mins, how come NXWM are advertising on their website, a new combined frequency to Washwood Heath of every 3-4 mins with the 55/55A/94? Or is the 5 min rule an average throughout the peak period?

" The frequency will be improved to every 7-8 minutes and will combine with services 55 & 55A as far as the Fox & Goose to provide buses every 3-4 minutes to Washwood Heath."

[arrifirststage]

Surely the absurdity of departures from a stop being no closer than 5 minutes can be shown at almost any stop in the suburbs during the rush hour.
A bunching of buses will cause 3 or 4 to arrive together with a likely gap of 15 minutes until the next bunch arrive .
Do any of these theory beloved officials actually have any practical experience in operating buses?

[andy]

In a word, no! They got to Uni, get degrees in Transport Planning or, as they like to call it now, Modelling, and go straight into jobs with consultancies who then get contracted by the Authorities. They use software packages to design layouts and movements. You can go into one of these jobs just by going to Uni, you never have to see a bus, a passenger or a road.  The consultants that came up with this could have been based anywhere.  There should be a requirement that they consult local transport professionals and operatives before their plans are allowed to be put in place.

The balls up by Arriva in Tamworth 4 years ago when they did something similar was designed by somebody in Leicester who'd never even been there, I saw his plans and very meticulous they were.  Unfortunately he didn't know that buses could run early or late or break down, or some were bigger than others meaning the lovely little spaces and flows he had engineered were not always as they should have been and result was complete gridlock and a 30 per cent reduction in passengers. Some of the services still haven't recovered to this day.

Transport Modelling is one of the most annoying professions to have been created in my opinion. It should be left to people who know what happens on the ground, and more importantly what can go wrong!

[monkeyjoe]

Are we suggesting that this Brum plan is set to fail then. I can see problems round the markets and round the carrs lane area.

[nx4737]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

That's all I'm saying.

[Stu]

So much negativity, before this has all actually been put into operation! Seriously, give it a chance, you might be surprised how effectively it'll work.

And in response to the 'if it ain't broke' comment, spend some time on Corporation Street during peak-times, to see just how congested and sluggish things get, with a vast number of buses on high frequency routes squeezing down a narrow street, trying to manoeuvre in and out of stopped buses, and getting stuck behind other vehicles which clearly shouldn't be on that street (I thought it was buses, taxis and delivery vehicles only, but plenty of cars going down there too).

And everyone is assuming that all buses will be waiting for five minutes at their designated terminus stops, I think you'll find that won't be the case at all times!

And for people moaning about a 'short walk' between interchanges, if you're travelling between areas, its likely you're already having to walk a short distance to get from one bus service to another. The exercise will do you good!

If its going to fail, lets give it a chance to fail, before dooming it to failure before it begins. Some positivity please!

[dayvid]

 I look forward to the megabuses bringing the city to a standstill because of its new position. Who thought of this plan, my gosh no thought. Megabuses are anything between 12m-18m long and sometimes with 2 coaches at a time. (18m atromega+trailer)

[MW]

I've only just noticed, does this mean the Stratford Road services will now be serving Digbeth again, as they used to a couple of years ago. All of them currently serve Bradford Street, with the exception of the 37.

[MW]

I've only just noticed, does this mean the Stratford Road services will now be serving Digbeth again, as they used to a couple of years ago. All of them currently serve Bradford Street, with the exception of the 37.

Ah, maybe not. I've just taken a look. The 6, 31, 31A & X20 will serve Digbeth like the 37 does, whilst the rest will still go up Bradford Street but will follow the current 50, turning right by the coach station and left onto Bradford Street. It'd make more sense to keep the 5, 6, X20 together, and then the 2, 3, 31, 31A together, but hey.

[Tony]

I've only just noticed, does this mean the Stratford Road services will now be serving Digbeth again, as they used to a couple of years ago. All of them currently serve Bradford Street, with the exception of the 37.

Ah, maybe not. I've just taken a look. The 6, 31, 31A & X20 will serve Digbeth like the 37 does, whilst the rest will still go up Bradford Street but will follow the current 50, turning right by the coach station and left onto Bradford Street. It'd make more sense to keep the 5, 6, X20 together, and then the 2, 3, 31, 31A together, but hey.

I think the 6 is back on Digbeth

[Justin Tyme]

So much negativity, before this has all actually been put into operation! Seriously, give it a chance, you might be surprised how effectively it'll work.

And in response to the 'if it ain't broke' comment, spend some time on Corporation Street during peak-times, to see just how congested and sluggish things get, with a vast number of buses on high frequency routes squeezing down a narrow street, trying to manoeuvre in and out of stopped buses, and getting stuck behind other vehicles which clearly shouldn't be on that street (I thought it was buses, taxis and delivery vehicles only, but plenty of cars going down there too).

And everyone is assuming that all buses will be waiting for five minutes at their designated terminus stops, I think you'll find that won't be the case at all times!

And for people moaning about a 'short walk' between interchanges, if you're travelling between areas, its likely you're already having to walk a short distance to get from one bus service to another. The exercise will do you good!

If its going to fail, lets give it a chance to fail, before dooming it to failure before it begins. Some positivity please!

It's going to happen and, while there is no alternative to buses leaving Corporation Street, I do not think that leaving the busiest thoroughfare in the city centre where thousands of passengers daily catch buses can be seen as a positive - especially by the infirm and elderly.

Still, we need to move on and, whatever we may think of the changes, it is going to be a very interesting time.  No doubt there will be teething troubles at the start but, as long as no showstoppers happen, things should then settle down for a few weeks.  The real test will be after the school holidays, when peak hour travel is at its maximum.   Birmingham City Council, Centro and the bus operators (especially traffic regulators on the ground) will no doubt do their damnedest to make sure it all works.  How well it does work in practice we will have to wait and see.  I think late September will be the time to make a fair judgement.

[monkeyjoe]

Why have the 73 and the 17 services been seperated by the look of things, that doesn't make sense does it??

[Tony]

Why have the 73 and the 17 services been seperated by the look of things, that doesn't make sense does it??

Because the 73 is tight for time so gets the quick way out of City, and at times the 73 was getting full with 17 passengers and leaving its own. This makes sure 73 passengers will be able to board. If you want a choice you will need to wait at the stop at the top of Digbeth