Messages

[not wanting to selling the two depots.]

Simon
I'm not quite sure as to whether £10m+ is a serious valuation, or just a way of saying it's not for sale. It might be better not to mention a figure if it's the latter. As to the 125, I did of course notice that you had not said exactly whether you would running a 125, and that why I used the word 'If'. I was hoping to tease that out. You've told us that another company has registered the 125, but you still haven't told us whether you will or won't be running such a service. Your 62 did get rid of Green Bus.
Regards, Andrew

Simon's clearly stated that Rotala do not want to sell RH & KR, therefore it ends there! Winston

Dear All,

1.  I had hoped when quoting the figure it would prove our resolve in not wanting to selling the two depots.

Winston,
If you don't want any discussion on the value of these operations, then Simon doesn't have to come on this thread and say that someone would have to pay 'north of £10m' to buy them. I've no objection to Simon coming on this thread, but I wouldn't want it to inhibit fair comment.

The £10+ Million plus offer was to reiterate that Rotala has no desire to sell, everyone else gets it....... Winston

All I see, Winston, is that you want to close down discussion, and you seem to have succeeded. You even edit my post to make your own comment.

No, I want you to accept what Rotala's Chief Exec is telling you. When's it going to register??? There's nothing to discuss. Yes and I can also delete as well, Winston

There's no point in taking part in these discussions, if we cannot discuss legitimate topics.

[not wanting to selling the two depots.]

Simon
I'm not quite sure as to whether £10m+ is a serious valuation, or just a way of saying it's not for sale. It might be better not to mention a figure if it's the latter. As to the 125, I did of course notice that you had not said exactly whether you would running a 125, and that why I used the word 'If'. I was hoping to tease that out. You've told us that another company has registered the 125, but you still haven't told us whether you will or won't be running such a service. Your 62 did get rid of Green Bus.
Regards, Andrew

Simon's clearly stated that Rotala do not want to sell RH & KR, therefore it ends there! Winston

Dear All,

1.  I had hoped when quoting the figure it would prove our resolve in not wanting to selling the two depots.

Winston,
If you don't want any discussion on the value of these operations, then Simon doesn't have to come on this thread and say that someone would have to pay 'north of £10m' to buy them. I've no objection to Simon coming on this thread, but I wouldn't want it to inhibit fair comment.

The £10+ Million plus offer was to reiterate that Rotala has no desire to sell, everyone else gets it....... Winston

All I see, Winston, is that you want to close down discussion, and you seem to have succeeded. You even edit my post to make your own comment.

No, I want you to accept what Rotala's Chief Exec is telling you. When's it going to register??? There's nothing to discuss. Yes and I can also delete as well, Winston

[not wanting to selling the two depots.]

Simon
I'm not quite sure as to whether £10m+ is a serious valuation, or just a way of saying it's not for sale. It might be better not to mention a figure if it's the latter. As to the 125, I did of course notice that you had not said exactly whether you would running a 125, and that why I used the word 'If'. I was hoping to tease that out. You've told us that another company has registered the 125, but you still haven't told us whether you will or won't be running such a service. Your 62 did get rid of Green Bus.
Regards, Andrew

Simon's clearly stated that Rotala do not want to sell RH & KR, therefore it ends there! Winston

Dear All,

1.  I had hoped when quoting the figure it would prove our resolve in not wanting to selling the two depots.

Winston,
If you don't want any discussion on the value of these operations, then Simon doesn't have to come on this thread and say that someone would have to pay 'north of £10m' to buy them. I've no objection to Simon coming on this thread, but I wouldn't want it to inhibit fair comment.

The £10+ Million plus offer was to reiterate that Rotala has no desire to sell, everyone else gets it....... Winston

Simon
I'm not quite sure as to whether £10m+ is a serious valuation, or just a way of saying it's not for sale. It might be better not to mention a figure if it's the latter. As to the 125, I did of course notice that you had not said exactly whether you would running a 125, and that why I used the word 'If'. I was hoping to tease that out. You've told us that another company has registered the 125, but you still haven't told us whether you will or won't be running such a service. Your 62 did get rid of Green Bus.
Regards, Andrew

When Simon Dunn mentioned £10m+, I admit I was surprised. Profitability must be pretty good. Even Kidderminster can't be so poor a bus area as some imply. I have in mind the £1.5m Diamond paid First just a couple of years ago. It's a little unfair to compare those figures because Diamond had the value of an existing business in Redditch. It also didn't buy many buses from First. Since then Whittles has withdrawn from the 3, the 1, the 2a/c, and virtually closed, and Diamond has gained the 7 and 192, all of which improve its position. Still, quite impressive in a couple of years, isn't it? At the current share price, Rotala is valued at about £21.5m. To buy it, someone would have to pay more. I've no idea what that figure would be, but it would be at least £25m. I expect the Directors would say more. Are Redditch and Kidderminster two-fifths of Rotala's activities? And the best bits? That is, £10m out of £25m? Of course, it's profitability, not size, that would determine its price and we don't know the profit make-up. I am just trying to see if the £10m+ is in the ballpark. As has been said, Redditch and Kidderminster are susceptible to someone choosing to compete. With the bigger groups that's also true, but they're not going to get competition in all their areas.

If Simon Dunn denies that Diamond will be running a 125 against Central's 125, then fair enough. However I think it was reasonable speculation that they might. Is this the Diamond that a few months ago registered and ran a 62 two minutes earlier than Green Bus? Is this the Diamond that runs its 149 and 145A against igo's 145? If you know these routes, you would know that having competitive services on them is laughable. Moreover is this the Diamond which defeated the mighty First in Redditch? They didn't do it by pussyfooting around. Was Kidderminster's own 1 service capable of sustaining two operators? What was Diamond's motivation in doing all this? Central itself is very competitive and I can hardly think its arrival in Kidderminster is welcome to Diamond. Pleasing though Simon Dunn's appearance on this board is, we must not suspend our common sense.   

Good news it looks like Central Buses have now got both Stourbridge and Bridgnorth sections of the 125 yeah!  :D

http://centralbuses.com/timetables/125.pdf

Central Buses 125 vs Arriva Bus 297

Who will win?

A light-hearted comment. Yes this isn't Lichfield and Tamworth. I am sure Diamond will welcome Central.

The route will be worth persevering with as it only requires 1 extra vehicle to what was already used on the 144/a. It is mainly OAPs who use it but as with anything, if you give it a chance it can be successful. There is far too much focus in the bus industry on instant results rather than focusing on the long term and developing routes and this is a criticism of all companies. I know money must be made but if routes can be given enough time (6 months is not longer enough eg the X1) then they will build custom up.

One change I would make to the 147 is to reroute it through Catshill so it serves Fairfield as there are more people living there to use the bus. However, this may not go down too well with the 318 operator.

I think that's a very good idea about Fairfield. The point about developing routes is also the explanation why a much better service exists on some routes compared to others, yet they seem to have the same characteristics. The 318 was once half-hourly, yet it has dwindled to a subsidised two-hourly service. I know where I'd like the other 144a to go eventually.

I think the long term plan would be to send it to Merry Hill but Midland Red/First has never seemed to like treading on WMT/nxwm toes in the West Mids so if it did happen it would probably run Halesowen to Merry Hill along one of the Centro subsidised routes. From my point of view as a driver, I think NXWM are missing a trick not setting up partnership routes with the other big groups around the Midlands - First/ Stagecoach and Arriva. This could lead to frequent long distance routes linking the major areas  - Brum/Coventry to Worcester/ Warwick/ Lichfield/ Tamworth/ Redditch/ Stratford/ Stafford/ Nuneaton/ Leicester etc. By working in partnership (eg from 2 garages 1 of each company), the driving regulation issues could be solved as no driver would have to do the full trip if more than 50km in total. It would certainly take some cooperation and teamwork but the West Mids and surrounding areas could develop a wide range of routes that could compete with the train between the areas, especially on price.

Ever since the creation of WMPTE 40 years ago, the break-up of Midland Red, the privatisation of WMT as a single company, and huge public investment in railways, the cross-border bus routes have mostly dwindled/struggled. I agree that longer bus routes suffer (which means in some cases they don't exist or are poor) because companies don't cooperate, which I've always put down to worries about the competition authorities, or simply that companies wouldn't trust each other. Rail isn't the answer in many cases: there are no stations between Worcester and Tewkesbury -and its station is inconveniently located- which is also true of Bromsgrove Station. I shall be interested to see how the extension of the cross-city line with 3 trains an hour affects the 144. Not very much I hope. I was pleased to see First take the initiative with the 147 and the 363. Developing existing routes is important. I would like the 550 to continue to Evesham creating with the 551 a half-hourly service. It might do a circular of Evesham, like the 28 does, making it very convenient to travel to Worcester.

The route will be worth persevering with as it only requires 1 extra vehicle to what was already used on the 144/a. It is mainly OAPs who use it but as with anything, if you give it a chance it can be successful. There is far too much focus in the bus industry on instant results rather than focusing on the long term and developing routes and this is a criticism of all companies. I know money must be made but if routes can be given enough time (6 months is not longer enough eg the X1) then they will build custom up.

One change I would make to the 147 is to reroute it through Catshill so it serves Fairfield as there are more people living there to use the bus. However, this may not go down too well with the 318 operator.

I think that's a very good idea about Fairfield. The point about developing routes is also the explanation why a much better service exists on some routes compared to others, yet they seem to have the same characteristics. The 318 was once half-hourly, yet it has dwindled to a subsidised two-hourly service. I know where I'd like the other 144a to go eventually.

What a pity though that it took so long to do a deal. The business is bound to have been harmed by the delay and uncertainty. I wonder why Johnsons didn't buy it earlier.

Does anyone know the Council's thinking behind having an 'in-house' bus operator like Woosh? Is it because no-one else is interested in operating the route or wants too much money to do so?

I just don't understand Diamond's reasoning on this. I realise it's difficult integrating the 2L so that Bewdley has a half hour service through the day from Diamond. If Diamond operates the 125, their offering might become a little better. With an hourly service at least you automatically know the times. With half-hourly, ditto, and you don't have to worry too much about missing one. Forty minute services are awkward: you need a timetable. In Redditch for 60 years right back to BMMO days, buses to Astwood Bank were half hourly, but after First gave up competing on the service, Diamond cut it to 40 minutes. Forty minute frequencies do put people off using the service. Now it's gone hourly. When the school kids get on, ordinary passengers get left at the stop, particularly with Diamond's small buses.

Someone else on the Rotala Management thread asked Simon Dunn about Worcs CC's list of changes which suggested the 2 would be cut back to every 40 minutes which was odd as Whittle's 2A/C was ceasing. He replied that no application had been submitted. Well, the latest Worcs CC list no longer has that change, Wribbenhall's not mentioned, and the changes to the 2L have also disappeared. It might all have been a misunderstanding, but just in case it's pretty useful to have access to the top man. 

Neither Arriva nor Diamond tendered for the service in May 2013. Whittle was the only company to tender.
http://shropshire.gov.uk/media/492151/lbs-tender-results-1-april-2009-to-present.pdf (scroll right to the very end of the document).
Presumably, Ced, you'd prefer Arriva to nobody. I am sure there is a limit to what Shropshire Council will pay, without scaling back the service. I think it would be good for Arriva to show some interest. I wonder what will happen to the Stourbridge section, as I understand that it is commercial and Worcestershire Council says, 'Rail is the fastest and most reliable (surface) mode of transport.' They don't mention convenience.

806 was being driven by a rotala inspector

1) Rotala have inspectors?
2) 806? Not NXWM? Haha

Liverpool Street,

Yes they certainly do they have got one in Redditch and one in Kidderminster the latter one (Kidder) he's well I'm not even saying on here as I do believe there are Rotala management staff on this forum unfortunately hence why I am saying nothing..

Diamond have buses in Kidderminster???!!! When did this happen - I was there for four hours on Friday and didn't see any buses at all. Let alone inspectors!! Perhaps I didn't travel on the roads they serve!!

2 years ago come March 2015, they bought First Wyvern's Redditch & Kidderminster operations off First, have a garage & the largest fleet in the town??? Where were you standing?

I wasn't able to do any standing around bus gazing as I had no free time - I ended up driving there so travelled in from the east, went part round the ring road, out towards Bewdley and into a housing estate - arrived at lunchtime and left in the evening peak - never saw a single bus - a concerted effort to get a public transport route yielded great connections by rail but I was surprised Diamond didn't figure in the Traveline route (which incidentally had a ten minute walk either end as well - seriously ten mins from the rail station!!) - I decided I'd need to go by taxi if I used public transport to be sure of timings. 

The only non NXWM bus I saw in my whole drive through North Worcestershire/ South Birmingham was a double decker 144 near Bromsgrove.

Now that would have been impossible even on a Sunday in Midland Red days!!

Going back into Midland Red days, in 1952 the 144 was every 20 minutes Monday to Fridays and Sundays, every 15 mins on Saturdays. Apart from Sundays, today's offering is not so bad. The 318 Bromsgrove to Stourbridge was every 30 minutes every day including Sundays and evenings (every 20 minutes Saturday evening). How this route has declined! Now a subsidised two-hourly affair.
OK, that's in the past, but I do think that bus companies particularly in Worcestershire have been a bit slow to try commercial services on Sundays. The day has completely changed from my youth when nothing happened and all the shops were shut. In the West Midlands County, there is a much better situation. There are towns in Worcestershire, it's not all rural space.