In the future when we have Sprint services and Cross-City services what service number could be used.
Firstly the hopefully near future Sprint service from Walsall to Solihull replacing the 51 and X1:
Will it be 51 along the whole route or X2, or could it be a completely new type of service number
Secondly the proposed Cross-City service replacing 50, 82 and 87:
Will it be 82/87 along the whole route or 50/50A, or again could it be a completely new type of service number
They could number them Sprint 1 or SPR1 etc or S1 etc .
Quote from: Steve3229vp on August 14, 2023, 11:38:52 AMFirstly the hopefully near future Sprint service from Walsall to Solihull replacing the 51 and X1:
Will it be 51 along the whole route or X2, or could it be a completely new type of service number
I would of thought it will be completely new number. As mentioned above S1 or something along those lines would make sense. Just have to wait and see.
Are they still asking for the Sprint services to be worked by artics 'with at least three doors' as they said some time ago?
25.
Quote from: ellspurs on August 14, 2023, 04:38:31 PM25.
I think you're missing the point, I think they will have unique service numbers, my suggestions would be:
C prefix for all stop Cross-City services
S prefix for Sprint services
We already have
X for limited stop and express/fast services
Have they not given up on the stupid idea of cross city services yet?
Quote from: Gareth on August 14, 2023, 06:18:06 PMHave they not given up on the stupid idea of cross city services yet?
Unfortunately not, they just finished putting in a bus gate at Moseley Road/Haden Way jnc. ready for the 50/82/87
I did wonder at the time if the changing of the S- prefix for the Solihull bus network to A- (for "Arden") was done deliberately, with a view to that becoming the prefix for any new Sprint routes.
S1 - Walsall to Birmingham Airport
S2 - Walsall to Solihull
Regarding the cross-city services, I'm not really sure if a new prefix would be needed. As these just merge existing bus routes together, I think either existing numbers will be retained, or new ones will be used.
So for example, regarding the 50/82/87, you could have:
82 - Bearwood to Maypole
87 - Dudley to Maypole
Or by getting creative with combining the numbers together, you could have:
57 - Dudley to Maypole
57A - Bearwood to Maypole
(I remember the original proposals only mentioned Maypole as the terminus, not Druids Heath, hence my suggestions)
Quote from: Stu on August 14, 2023, 07:24:54 PMI did wonder at the time if the changing of the S- prefix for the Solihull bus network to A- (for "Arden") was done deliberately, with a view to that becoming the prefix for any new Sprint routes.
S1 - Walsall to Birmingham Airport
S2 - Walsall to Solihull
Regarding the cross-city services, I'm not really sure if a new prefix would be needed. As these just merge existing bus routes together, I think either existing numbers will be retained, or new ones will be used.
So for example, regarding the 50/82/87, you could have:
82 - Bearwood to Maypole
87 - Dudley to Maypole
Or by getting creative with combining the numbers together, you could have:
57 - Dudley to Maypole
57A - Bearwood to Maypole
(I remember the original proposals only mentioned Maypole as the terminus, not Druids Heath, hence my suggestions)
To be honest I think a big campaign will be made for the first cross-city services so I think TfWM will want something that stands out so my proposal would be:
C50 Druids Heath to Bearwood
C51 Druids Heath to Dudley
I do think cross city bus routes would be a good idea for main corridors. With all the tram works going on the bus stops, the roads can get crowded and congested so if waiting times were a while away from the city that would help. for example short routes not too far from city, like 82 from bearwood to druids Heath following the 50 route sounds realistic. I don't think combining long mileage routes would work regardless if they're limited stop.
CC1
CC2
Or
XC1
XC2
Maybe 🤔
What is the timeline for this cross-city plan to be completed then? And is it actually going to work, or are buses just going to get stuck in the blackhole which is Birmingham City Centre?
Plus it says it will benefit passengers by not needing to change buses in the City Centre, but that depends on where you're going to really doesn't it. It doesn't cover that many crossovers.
Quote from: MasterPlan on August 14, 2023, 09:21:09 PMWhat is the timeline for this cross-city plan to be completed then? And is it actually going to work, or are buses just going to get stuck in the blackhole which is Birmingham City Centre?
Plus it says it will benefit passengers by not needing to change buses in the City Centre, but that depends on where you're going to really doesn't it. It doesn't cover that many crossovers.
I agree. I can imagine a lot of people jumping on these cross city services and changing over in the city to another service depending on how frequent sprint will be.
They tried cross city many years ago with lots of routes, then got rid of them all. Just like how they had trams.. then got rid of them to bring them back in 2012.
Quote from: MasterPlan on August 14, 2023, 09:21:09 PMWhat is the timeline for this cross-city plan to be completed then? And is it actually going to work, or are buses just going to get stuck in the blackhole which is Birmingham City Centre?
Plus it says it will benefit passengers by not needing to change buses in the City Centre, but that depends on where you're going to really doesn't it. It doesn't cover that many crossovers.
Buses will get stuck in more than just the black hole which is Birmingham city centre in my opinion. Buses heading out of the city centre in the morning towards the likes of Castle Bromwich will be 20 minutes late because of the traffic on Harborne High St for example. No amount of bus priority measures will address that.
The whole concept of these cross-city services is strange. They've not worked before due to traffic issues and reliability. Those same problems are as bad now as they've ever been.
Cross city routes work in smaller city's, I don't see them working at all in Birmingham with the amount of traffic on the whole network. I've seen the 50 come in groups of 5 into Birmingham and that's without it being a cross city route, or imagine worse than that.
QuoteCross city routes work in smaller city's, I don't see them working at all in Birmingham with the amount of traffic on the whole network. I've seen the 50 come in groups of 5 into Birmingham and that's without it being a cross city route, or imagine worse than that.
The outer circle is probably the worst, around 3 coming together all the time
Quote from: GoldenSquid on August 15, 2023, 12:46:24 PMCross city routes work in smaller city's, I don't see them working at all in Birmingham with the amount of traffic on the whole network. I've seen the 50 come in groups of 5 into Birmingham and that's without it being a cross city route, or imagine worse than that.
The convoluted road layout of one-way systems in Birmingham city centre now doesn't really seem suited to allowing the 'smooth' operation of cross-city bus services, in my opinion.
It would appear that the Sprint route from Walsall to Solihull/Airport will likely just use James Watt Queensway and Moor Street Queensway in both directions to 'join' the 51 and X1/X2 services together.
Quote from: Stu on August 15, 2023, 08:37:17 PMThe convoluted road layout of one-way systems in Birmingham city centre now doesn't really seem suited to allowing the 'smooth' operation of cross-city bus services, in my opinion.
It would appear that the Sprint route from Walsall to Solihull/Airport will likely just use James Watt Queensway and Moor Street Queensway in both directions to 'join' the 51 and X1/X2 services together.
As Sprint has a lot of dedicated bus lanes, I feel like that project would just about work. But the 50/82/7 merge won't work as well.
Quote from: GoldenSquid on August 16, 2023, 07:16:01 PMAs Sprint has a lot of dedicated bus lanes, I feel like that project would just about work. But the 50/82/7 merge won't work as well.
The 82 will probably go
Quote from: 18WilliamsLi on August 20, 2023, 03:39:22 PMIt will go completely
No it won't, are you not paying attention to this topic?
back in the day somebody thought the 999 was a good service Solihull to NEC ltd stop express, it lost money, as it was basically just pick up at one end set down at the other, it was withdrawn in a big cull that saw the 182, 183, 184, 153 all go (among others)#
i do not see how having a ltd stop express sprint bus on the same route as say the 51 & X51, its likely to be more expensive and surely your diluting the available customers on one road, i cannot see a future for the sprint bus and i think in the end the Tram will over stretch itself
Quote from: Celestial Toymaker on August 28, 2023, 03:43:46 PMback in the day somebody thought the 999 was a good service Solihull to NEC ltd stop express, it lost money, as it was basically just pick up at one end set down at the other, it was withdrawn in a big cull that saw the 182, 183, 184, 153 all go (among others)#
i do not see how having a ltd stop express sprint bus on the same route as say the 51 & X51, its likely to be more expensive and surely your diluting the available customers on one road, i cannot see a future for the sprint bus and i think in the end the Tram will over stretch itself
It won't be a separate service, the new sprint service will replace both the 51 and X2
Just wondering when is now the predicted date for the sprint to start.
I just seen a map of sprint. kind of on the 126, 63, X14 bus routes, I hope if this does go ahead it will not be replacing theses services, route wise or vehicle wise. But will aid them, if there's enough seats.
I think passengers would rather be sat on a spacious (2007/11) e400 on the 126 than a new cramped 'tram articulated bus' with less seats than a scania. Never mind the idea of platinums coming off the X14 for 'tram style buses' to passengers. the new ADL Evs work well/green enough don't they? If they wanted to try something different a wright Electroliner would be a fair choice ...
I remember the bendi buses retired early... but however ,, A takeaway is the seating arrangements in the old bendis was a lot better than these 'trams' are going to be.
Quote from: Owen on September 17, 2023, 06:11:45 PMI just seen a map of sprint. kind of on the 126, 63, X14 bus routes, I hope if this does go ahead it will not be replacing theses services, route wise or vehicle wise. But will aid them, if there's enough seats.
Someone do correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the sprint routes joining together existing services? For example the X2 and 51 joining together to create one Sprint route?
Purely crystal ball gazing: Belfast style Van Hool artics will be ordered for the Walsall-Airport-Solihull route, WMCA have invested in too much publicity for this not to happen, lots of resources will initially be needed to combat fare dodging. Cross-city 50/82/87 will be introduced using (electric?) deckers as a test-bed to see if traffic delays on such long routes impact reliability (I suspect they will) if not, other proposed cross-city routes will be rolled out. The expense of changes to infrastructure or other factors will prove too expensive to use artics on some or possibly all of these new routes. All this will take several years. I'll update this in 2026.
Other than I maintain that each route should be numbered '25', it has been announced today (or well it has been reported today) that the next four routes have been funded.
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/black-country/huge-70m-upgrade-buses-across-27781215
https://www.wmca.org.uk/news/cross-city-bus-route-network-to-make-services-quicker-and-easier-for-passengers/
Wow. I expected longbridge to castle vale,
And Bartley Green to chelmsley wood.
The others come as a bit of a surprise.
Will all these by 'tram articulated' vehicles?.. Or just Solihull to Walsall? And druids Heath - Bearwood...
This what I would do:
C53 West Brom-Chelmsley Wood replacing part of 74 and all of 97
74 Dudley to West Brom only.
C55 Bartley Green-Chelmsley replacing 23 and 95
C56 Quinton Road West-Chelmsley replacing 24 and 94
C63 Frankley-Castle Vale replacing 61 or 63 and 67
C64 Longbridge-Hamstead replacing 16 and 45/47
I don't think they'll start in double digit numbers, when (C)1-10 haven't been used yet.
I think they'll come up with a strategy to make the routes 'sound familiar' like 51 and X2 would be C2
Are these sprint services likely to takeover the actual services and alltogether ?
Meaning the X2, 67, 74, 87, 97 exc.. be terminated as a 'regular' route and wholly dependent on sprint?
Quote from: Owen on September 25, 2023, 04:42:09 PMAre these sprint services likely to takeover the actual services and alltogether ?
Meaning the X2, 67, 74, 87, 97 exc.. be terminated as a 'regular' route and wholly dependent on sprint?
Makes sense to do that tbf although i can see the 74 being curtailed between dudley and WB seeing how sprint only goes west brom
Quote from: EK40 on September 25, 2023, 04:46:17 PMMakes sense to do that tbf although i can see the 74 being curtailed between dudley and WB seeing how sprint only goes west brom
While I appreciate that,
It just doesn't make sense with the tram going to West Brom literally just of the soho rd. it's surprising.
I'm sure the trams were meant to go up bordsley Green rd... to Cwood, NEC, Solihull.
~ Connecting wolves to Solihull. So sprint along this route would be temporary?
Quote from: Owen on September 25, 2023, 04:42:09 PMAre these sprint services likely to takeover the actual services and alltogether ?
Meaning the X2, 67, 74, 87, 97 exc.. be terminated as a 'regular' route and wholly dependent on sprint?
If you read the articles posted, there is no mention of Sprint & articulated vehicles whatsoever, they're just new 'cross-city bus routes' with various bus priorities / improvements.
All that has been announced today is what many people already know about.
This has all been in the planning for some time.
As Winston has already pointed out, these are cross-city services, not Sprint.
I'm sure I've asked this before but are these cross City routes definitely replacing some regular routes or running alongside them?
I'd have thought the latter really with the regular service maybe dropping slightly in frequency.
Well the tram is meant to go via the 97 route some time in the future. So what's the point making the 97 and 74 cross city when a tram is destined to take there place?
I thought they were sprint but I'm mistaken. I'm still wondering wether the whole of these service are going to be cross city. you know, with some journeys been terminated in city.
I suppose we'll be seeing the 6970 - 7505 e400mmcs rebranded or de-branded completely.
I take it by the time these changes happen the 97 brands would have either been withdrawn or just removed branding
Quote from: MasterPlan on September 25, 2023, 06:51:44 PMI'm sure I've asked this before but are these cross City routes definitely replacing some regular routes or running alongside them?
I'd have thought the latter really with the regular service maybe dropping slightly in frequency.
Bartley Green/Quinton to Chelmsley is the 94/95 and 23/24 merged. Could see it just replacing them.
It could probably be up to a couple of years before some of these are introduced I would guess. Which won't be until bus lanes, amendments to junctions/bus stops etc have been introduced. By which time the tridents on the 97 will probably have been withdrawn.
Quote from: 2206 on September 25, 2023, 07:58:26 PMBartley Green/Quinton to Chelmsley is the 94/95 and 23/24 merged. Could see it just replacing them.
It could probably be up to a couple of years before some of these are introduced I would guess. Which won't be until bus lanes, amendments to junctions/bus stops etc have been introduced. By which time the tridents on the 97 will probably have been withdrawn.
I was thinking that. Any speculation yet in what might merge with the Suttons or Hagley road lines?
Quote from: Owen on September 25, 2023, 08:16:33 PMI was thinking that. Any speculation yet in what might merge with the Suttons or Hagley road lines?
The initial plans are shown in the map on Stu's website here:
https://wmbu.org.uk/2023/02/first-cross-city-bus-routes-edge-closer-to-reality-but-are-they-really-needed/
Hagley Road isn't down as one of the cross-city routes on that map.
Quote from: Owen on September 25, 2023, 08:16:33 PMI was thinking that. Any speculation yet in what might merge with the Suttons or Hagley road lines?
Nothing. The money is for the routes listed.
Quote from: Tony on September 25, 2023, 08:37:44 PMNothing. The money is for the routes listed.
Just a question, as if these were to become bountiful in the midlands in the next few years. I've made an appropriate thread for it now if people are interested.
Quote from: 2206 on September 25, 2023, 07:58:26 PMBartley Green/Quinton to Chelmsley is the 94/95 and 23/24 merged. Could see it just replacing them.
It could probably be up to a couple of years before some of these are introduced I would guess. Which won't be until bus lanes, amendments to junctions/bus stops etc have been introduced. By which time the tridents on the 97 will probably have been withdrawn.
I'm not sure what tridents have to do with what I asked. If they were to replace well-used and long-standing routes completely they'd have to be very reliable and frequent.
I would think all the new cross-city routes would be operated by Electric buses
Quote from: MasterPlan on September 25, 2023, 06:51:44 PMI'm sure I've asked this before but are these cross City routes definitely replacing some regular routes or running alongside them?
I'd have thought the latter really with the regular service maybe dropping slightly in frequency.
Nothing is getting replaced, it is existing services being merged together.
One thing that I assume will be lost with these cross-city routes is the 'city loop' that the 23/24 currently follow, linking Suffolk St, New St station and the Snow Hill / Colmore Row financial district. Either parts of that route will need to be dropped completely or served only in one direction, with some links lost.
That's a pity because quite a few people seem to use the routes to get from one part of the city centre area to another.
Quote from: Stu on September 26, 2023, 08:57:31 AMNothing is getting replaced, it is existing services being merged together.
So 2 services getting replaced by 1 then.
Well I would have thought the x22/x21 would have been better contenders then the 24/23. As they provide more useful links like a hospital and uni.
Quote from: Owen on September 26, 2023, 12:32:54 PMWell I would have thought the x22/x21 would have been better contenders then the 24/23. As they provide more useful links like a hospital and uni.
If you look at the 23/24 and 94/95 you'll see that the frequencies match for most of the time (every 10-12 minutes each, combining a 5/6 minute frequency), linking the 94/95 would create an imbalance.
B = Birmingham (all stops)
S = Sprint (stops only at the Terminus and city center stops)
Package 1: City Center - BA & BC
Package 2: Hamstead to Longbridge - B1/S1
Perry Common to Hawksley - B6/S6
Package 3: Dudley to Druids Heath - B2/S2
Bearwood to Maypole - B7/S7
Package 4: Sutton Coldfield to Longbridge - B3/S3
Package 5: Harborne to Castle Bromwich - B4/S4
Package 6: West Bromwich to Meadway - B5/S5
Colour coordinated routes as per https://www.wmca.org.uk/news/cross-city-bus-route-network-to-make-services-quicker-and-easier-for-passengers/
Hamstead to Longbridge - F1/F1A
Druids Heath to Bearwood/Dudley - P1/P1A
Longbridge to Castle Vale - T1/T1A
Bartley Green to Chelmsley Wood - O1/O1A
West Bromwich to Chelmsley - G1
I think an easy solution would be to use the 90-99 numbering.
Longbridge to Hampstead (90/91) replacing 16/45/47
Frankley to Castle Vale (92/93) replacing 61/63/67 (plus 65?)
Quinton Rd West/Bartley Green to Chelmsley Wood (94/95) replacing 23/24/94/95
West Bromwich to Chelmsley Wood (97) replacing 74/97
Bearwood/Dudley to Druids Heath (98/99) replacing 50/82/87
Route 74 I would assume would continue West Bromwich to Dudley only with the same route number
I would also renumber the 96 out of this numbering to free up for a future cross city service (maybe the 6/33 for instance?)
The route from Frankley to Castle Vale seems to frequent at the Castle Vale end if incorporating both the 61/63 as they are both every 12 minutes and the 67 also is every 12 minutes so it may only incorporate one of the services (even though looks like both are highlighted in green). But I would personally bring in the 65 having the 61/65 and 63/67 as cross city 92/93. It share most of the infrastructure along the A5127 but only bottleneck would be Slade Road. The 65 would be strange on its own without the 67 as would either the 61 or 63.
Sprint should continue with the X1/X2 numbering in my opinion but just extending Cross City. I was under the belief that Sprint is replacing the X51 (between Birmingham & Walsall) not the normal stopping 51 service? As many people have mentioned the 51 not the X51?
So they are starting works on washwood heath bus lanes next year and fast tracking this route, wonder how they will enforce the bus lanes and where they will be??
It's on Andy streets Facebook page btw
Quote from: monkeyjoe on December 20, 2023, 08:16:21 PMSo they are starting works on washwood heath bus lanes next year and fast tracking this route, wonder how they will enforce the bus lanes and where they will be??
It's on Andy streets Facebook page btw
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/disruption-warning-work-install-bus-28323202
Also with news article that doesn't explain much.
I really look forward to the day my five minute frequency bus routes is a five minute frequency. I just hope whilst being installed, the services don't get even worse than they are now.
Quote from: Gareth on December 21, 2023, 05:08:46 PMI just hope whilst being installed, the services don't get even worse than they are now.
Unfortunately that is usually what happens.
Two of my colleagues at work drive in from Coventry, and they had nightmare journeys while the works took place on the A45 for Sprint, and I remember reading about how badly affected the X1 and X2 were as well as the 60.
The phrase that is supposed to reassure people is "short-term pain for long-term gain".
At least it seems now the demolition of Saltley Viaduct will take place after the new viaduct has opened. That would have been a nightmare. It was awful whilst it was closed for 9 months this year.