In the event of any conflict between occupied pushchair space(s) by mother and child, would a Driver be prepared to carry a wheelchair user on the platform?...at least for a short distance? perhaps to the first available sheltered stop in the event of heavy rain? :-\ :-\ do WM have a company policy? or is there an element of driver descretion? :-\ :-\
No, Wheelchairs must be in the proper allocated space for safety reason, the main one being it cannot tip over if the driver has to brake hard
Refusal by an idle chav chariot minder to dispose of their wheels in favour of the wheelchair would be a simple handbrake on/paper out situation for me, no questions asked.
Too true! Although I believe there may currently be a major court dispute in progress as we speak but I'm not sure which bus group may be involved...or their company policy :-\ :-\
Quote from: windy miller on November 20, 2014, 08:10:46 PM
Too true! Although I believe there may currently be a major court dispute in progress as we speak but I'm not sure which bus group may be involved...or their company policy :-\ :-\
It's First who are involved. I believe their policy is probably the same as most bus companies. Namely that if the wheelchair space is occupied, the occupier will be asked to move, but can not be forced.
Seems the most sensible policy as although it goes without saying that wheelchair users should have priority there will always be folk who refuse to move.
I'm glad that First are appealing against the earlier decision. What is the driver meant to do then,get out of his can and manhandle the pushchair out of the way? That is what the court seemed to be saying!
Quote from: D10 on November 20, 2014, 08:59:02 PM
I'm glad that First are appealing against the earlier decision. What is the driver meant to do then,get out of his can and manhandle the pushchair out of the way? That is what the court seemed to be saying!
Not atall. Like I said, handbrake on, paper out until they've made the space available.
I'm going to sound like such a bad guy here, and I honestly don't mean to cause offence, but the way I see it, NX operate a two buggy policy, which means that if a mother, father, gran or grandad is the 3rd buggy along the route, and they can't fold the buggy down for whatever reason, they have to wait for the next available bus, this isn't discrimination, this is common sense.
Now same situation, but this time mother 3 with the massive buggy is on the bus and another buggy user is also on the bus, when somebody in a wheelchair rocks up, can you really ask someone to get off the bus who would not be allowed on if he or she was the one trying to board??
Who is being discriminated against really??
Quote from: danny on November 20, 2014, 11:21:08 PM
I'm going to sound like such a bad guy here, and I honestly don't mean to cause offence, but the way I see it, NX operate a two buggy policy, which means that if a mother, father, gran or grandad is the 3rd buggy along the route, and they can't fold the buggy down for whatever reason, they have to wait for the next available bus, this isn't discrimination, this is common sense.
Now same situation, but this time mother 3 with the massive buggy is on the bus and another buggy user is also on the bus, when somebody in a wheelchair rocks up, can you really ask someone to get off the bus who would not be allowed on if he or she was the one trying to board??
Who is being discriminated against really??
The point you're missing is that nobody is telling anybody to get off the bus, just to free the space up. That space is the only one available to a wheelchair, which cannot be folded up. The owner of the pushchair can sit or stand anywhere on the bus with a folded pushchair.
May be bus companies can do what super markets and our carparking companies do and thats put signs on the floor marking out where push chairs and wheel chairs go. with a sign on the window next to the disabled area reading a long the lines of disabled space, if a wheel chair user needs this sapce please move. Either fold your buggy or leave the bus. OK that is in your face, but at the end of the day wheel chair users have been drawing the short straw with buses for years. When i was a wee lad in the early 1990's my mum would have shopping me and a buggy she folded the buggy up, ok maybe my mum isnt a good comparision as she used to work in the old Redditch bus station in the canteen untill late 1989 but the drivers would help her. But then again you could say socialty has changed since then.
In Weston a woman caught my merc minibus & was happy to fold down the buggy (we had significantly cheaper fares than first). She got off the bus in town unfolded the pushchair then transferred onto a First bus going to Crabbs Causeway. A wheelchair passenger wanted to get on & she refused to fold her buggy because "it's too big to fold up myself". Just goes to show how thoughtless & selfish people can be. The poor guy in the wheelchair had to wait an hour for the next bus. Fortunately one of my drivers offered to take him personally in his car.
you can add large shopping trolleys to that
It had occured to me that we in the WM catchment area appear to be reasonably well blessed with an excellent Ring&ride facility?. if the wheelchair user has a flat battery on his/her wheelchair and/or has no mobile phone/signal could a driver contact control and ask them to arrange a collection from his present Loc? :-\
Wheelchair user loses case. Bad state of affairs.
Quote from: monkeyjoe on December 08, 2014, 11:32:42 AM
Wheelchair user loses case. Bad state of affairs.
At last common sense prevailed today. What more can a compnay do other than ask the rider to move and if she doesn't that is not the fault of the bus company.
If a person wants to be a pr*** what can any bus company do?
Sorry, but i disagree with arguments on here regarding this situation.
Surely the legislation is designed so that disabled people are treated in exactly the same way as able bodied people. If the bus pulls up at a stop and a wheelchair user is already occupying the space and a pushchair user wished to board, then unless the pushchair is folded down, then they have to wait for the next service. However if a pushchair user is already occupying the space, then if the pushchair user is unwilling to fold the pushchair (and it may be difficult), then the wheelchair user must wait for the next service.
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on December 08, 2014, 06:23:24 PM
Sorry, but i disagree with arguments on here regarding this situation.
Surely the legislation is designed so that disabled people are treated in exactly the same way as able bodied people. If the bus pulls up at a stop and a wheelchair user is already occupying the space and a pushchair user wished to board, then unless the pushchair is folded down, then they have to wait for the next service. However if a pushchair user is already occupying the space, then if the pushchair user is unwilling to fold the pushchair (and it may be difficult), then the wheelchair user must wait for the next service.
I see both sides of the argument, it is true what stu said but then it's life unfortunately
Hopefully we haven't heard the last of this.
Quote from: trident4370 on December 08, 2014, 08:07:11 PM
Hopefully we haven't heard the last of this.
No hopefully we have, any other ruling would have put drivers in an impossible position
Quote from: trident4370 on December 08, 2014, 08:07:11 PM
Hopefully we haven't heard the last of this.
Hopefully from a bus company prospective we have. You can go into the rights/wrongs of the argument for ever - but ultimately the judgment from the last case made the bus company legally responsible for the actions of its passengers - something it can't have control over.
In addition there is (currently) no requirement that a bus even needs to be accessible to wheelchairs. First could be found 'guilty' in this case, but then change the route to step-entrance operation meaning the man can never travel and in theory face no repercussions.
If it is decided by the lawmakers that wheelchair users should have the space no matter what, it needs to be the law for the person sat with the pram/sat in the wheelchair space etc. rather than the bus company. (E.g. your legal duty as a passenger, rather than the legal duty of the company).
In reality, this would be a silly law - there are far to many 'what ifs' - What if the pram is carrying a disabled child? What if the mother of the child in the pram is disabled and unable to lift the child/fold the pram? What if the space is occupied by a disabled person with a zimmer frame, where the bus only has a small wheelchair/buggy zone with no where else safe to accommodate the zimmer frame? Don't forget its not even got to be a pram, it could in theory be anyone sat in the bay - even without prams, trolleys etc.
I agree with the outcome. There is nothing more than a driver can do, but ask a passenger if they are able to fold a buggy. And a lot of them are practically unfoldable.
I have every sympathy for a wheelchair user, I imagine that life can be tough, but surely any passenger with any decency will do the right thing. Hopefully the mass tutting of every other passenger on a bus will be enough to shame someone.
A lot of Disablility laws are done with good intentions, but actually in practice work out stupidly.
You have a train running from Inverness to Thurso with one disabled toilet on board and one normal toilet. On the way to Thurso the disabled toilet breaks. Because that train now only has a non-disabled it is illegal for it to start a new Journey (back to Inverness) meaning all passengers now have a two hour wait for the next one - including any disabled people.
If Scotrail use a train without any toilets fitted whatsoever that is legal!
Quote from: Tony on December 08, 2014, 09:09:39 PM
A lot of Disablility laws are done with good intentions, but actually in practice work out stupidly.
You have a train running from Inverness to Thurso with one disabled toilet on board and one normal toilet. On the way to Thurso the disabled toilet breaks. Because that train now only has a non-disabled it is illegal for it to start a new Journey (back to Inverness) meaning all passengers now have a two hour wait for the next one - including any disabled people.
If Scotrail use a train without any toilets fitted whatsoever that is legal!
Is that to do with distance? Or Scottish law? On a 350 the 'Universal' toilet (the expression disabled is not allowed) is always the first one to screw up leaving only the standard one. In many cases that one can screw up too leaving no working toilets. And the 323's only have standard toilets. Yet nothing ever gets cancelled for these reasons even if the train is going all the way to Euston or Liverpool?
Quote from: andy on December 08, 2014, 09:21:47 PM
Quote from: Tony on December 08, 2014, 09:09:39 PM
A lot of Disablility laws are done with good intentions, but actually in practice work out stupidly.
You have a train running from Inverness to Thurso with one disabled toilet on board and one normal toilet. On the way to Thurso the disabled toilet breaks. Because that train now only has a non-disabled it is illegal for it to start a new Journey (back to Inverness) meaning all passengers now have a two hour wait for the next one - including any disabled people.
If Scotrail use a train without any toilets fitted whatsoever that is legal!
Is that to do with distance? Or Scottish law? On a 350 the 'Universal' toilet (the expression disabled is not allowed) is always the first one to screw up leaving only the standard one. In many cases that one can screw up too leaving no working toilets. And the 323's only have standard toilets. Yet nothing ever gets cancelled for these reasons even if the train is going all the way to Euston or Liverpool?
323s, not having a universal toilet are exempt until 2020, when they will have to have one fitted, or the normal one removed (which also makes them legal from 2020!)
The law states that trains should not start a journey with the disabled toilet not working (if there is one) so if it screws up on route it can continue. A lot of 350s run in pairs and threes into & out of Euston, so will still have a Universal toilet on departure even if it is in another unit
Well that's interesting. I know for a fact that 4 car 350's run into Euston with no Universal and straight back out again on a regular basis.
I think the wheelchair user should always receive first priority, but that's just my opinion
Quote from: Sh4318 on December 09, 2014, 01:06:57 AM
I think the wheelchair user should always receive first priority, but that's just my opinion
In a perfect world yes, but sadly the world is far from perfect. The bus is full to capacity, the buggy is practically unfoldable and the poor excuse of a luggage area is full. Where does the buggy go? Where does mother and child go? After much arguing with the driver, they have to get off. But she paid cash fare and the operator has an exact fare policy. How does she catch the next bus?
After a long delay in arguing and getting off and wheelchair getting on, it's now everybody who's missed their train connection, not just the wheelchair passenger.
Quote from: Sh4318 on December 09, 2014, 01:06:57 AM
I think the wheelchair user should always receive first priority, but that's just my opinion
What makes a wheelchair user any different from any other disabled person? Are we saying that someone with an amputated finger should be able to get on a full bus at the expense of someone in front of him in the queue?
Isn't this argument about equality? So with that a wheelchair user could wait for the next bus just as an able bodied person would have to say if the bus is full. Seems to me that as soon as they don't get preferential treatment (which contradicts equality for others) then there's a big song and dance about it. Yes it's harsh having to be in a wheelchair but the world doesn't owe you everything all of the time.
Easy way to sort it out.
Child fare holders must stand whenever an adult fare holder wants to sit down
Buggys must be folded
Only one space allowed on the bus for wheelchairs who pre book.
The fact that priority space is lacking on buses should be all the more argument to say it should be kept for those who need it most, not those who use it for convenience.
Pre booking I don't think is a viable option. Inevitably someone will rock up on the off chance of getting on and being refused just leads to a headache for the driver. Also, a space may have been booked and the person fail to turn up. The bus might not even turn up for that matter. Anything could happen eg mechanical breakdown or RTC etc.
In my experience of driving buses (which is limited). Certain routes take wheelchair users more than others and by the same token these passengers are usually regular and know the score. I try to assist as much as I can and get recognised by these passengers because of it. One example is one day a guy in a 'chair gets on and off we go. Ten mins up the road there's another wheelchair user waiting for my service. I stop (lots of drivers would drive straight past) to explain to him I can't let him board as I've got one already. I carry on. Two stops later an elderly lady berates me in front of everyone because I didn't pick him up. When the first guy gets off he said he felt bad because the bloke waiting was in a worse state than he was - this from a guy with no legs!! Point is doesn't matter what you do or how you do it you can't make everyone happy all of the time.
I've seen the abuse some drivers have received when they politely try to explain to a mum with a pushchair trying to get on that there are already two buggies on board and they'll have to fold up their buggy or wait for the next bus, and this was on the 37 which operates every few minutes anyway.
Drivers just can't win either way, it must be worse if a service operates every 30 mins or hourly though and there's not enough room.
Quote from: Tony on December 09, 2014, 06:15:30 PM
Quote from: Sh4318 on December 09, 2014, 01:06:57 AM
I think the wheelchair user should always receive first priority, but that's just my opinion
What makes a wheelchair user any different from any other disabled person? Are we saying that someone with an amputated finger should be able to get on a full bus at the expense of someone in front of him in the queue?
I'm disabled myself, I'd rather a wheelchair user go ahead of me in the queue if the only seating option was a fold down chair
Well for one, the wheelchair user can't use their legs! The wheelchair user doesn't have the freedom to sit wherever they want. Seating is very limited. Like I said, in my opinion, the wheelchair user should always get first priority
Quote from: the trainbasher on December 09, 2014, 06:53:37 PM
Only one space allowed on the bus for wheelchairs who pre book.
What would be the point in that when Ring and Ride already exists?
Quote from: Sh4318 on December 10, 2014, 12:10:30 AM
Quote from: Tony on December 09, 2014, 06:15:30 PM
Quote from: Sh4318 on December 09, 2014, 01:06:57 AM
I think the wheelchair user should always receive first priority, but that's just my opinion
What makes a wheelchair user any different from any other disabled person? Are we saying that someone with an amputated finger should be able to get on a full bus at the expense of someone in front of him in the queue?
I'm disabled myself, I'd rather a wheelchair user go ahead of me in the queue if the only seating option was a fold down chair
Well for one, the wheelchair user can't use their legs! The wheelchair user doesn't have the freedom to sit wherever they want. Seating is very limited. Like I said, in my opinion, the wheelchair user should always get first priority
But this is where it gets messy. Whilst yes there are lots of wheelchair users who do fully require a wheelchair, there are numerous who do have mobility, but find it easier to use the chair.
There is one man I've seen board buses before, who pushes his wheelchair onto the bus and then sits in it.
It is far too simplistic to have a rule 'wheelchair users should always get priority'. There will be situations where the wheelchair user can transfer to a seat far more easily than a mother may be able to pick up their child and fold down the pram.
It is also important to remember, this case wasn't just about mothers with prams. It includes elderly people with shopping trolleys/zimmer frames and any able-bodied people stood or sat in the wheelchair bay.
If the judgement had stood - would it have included people standing on a bus full to capacity in the wheelchair bay?
It also depends on the frequency of services along the route the person in a wheelchair wants to board. While on a Optare Solo recently which had a pushchair already on board it stopped where an intending customer was waiting in a wheelchair. The driver pointed to the Real Time Information and said the next bus is in a minute which the wheelchair user accepted preventing delay to my and fellow passengers journeys. With staff like that no wonder the bus company was Bus Operator the year.
Quote from: JoNi on December 10, 2014, 01:37:52 PM
It also depends on the frequency of services along the route the person in a wheelchair wants to board. While on a Optare Solo recently which had a pushchair already on board it stopped where an intending customer was waiting in a wheelchair. The driver pointed to the Real Time Information and said the next bus is in a minute which the wheelchair user accepted preventing delay to my and fellow passengers journeys. With staff like that no wonder the bus company was Bus Operator the year.
Which company was this?
Nottingham City Transport at a stop in West Bridgeford where all buses were going to the Nottingham city loop with next buses clearly visible on Real Time Information.
You could use the same aurgument with Disabled and Parent & Child car parking. Because on this score no parent with a child in a push chair that is a monster can be told to move there car to allow a disabled customer park. Why do I say that because most bus companies like car parking firms display the wheel chair sticker on the front of the bus and some times in the window of the bay. So what is the difference when painted on tarmac?
My personal opinion is that all buses should have two bays at the front on each side one with wheel chair users in mind and those who have Zimmers, then one on the other side for zimmers and buggies.
And the zones to be marked out like in a carpark. Because if my mum parked in a Parent and child space with me (yes im 24 but I'm still her child) she would be asked to move. As would a mother with a baby or toddler parking in a disabled space so why can't it happen on a bus?
But I do think with DDA buses parents and grandparents siblings have gotten into the habit of buying bulky buggies and prams which need a tool box to fold up to fit into a luggage rack or next to you in the seat well. I remember the light weight buggy my mum had in the early to mid 90's she could fold it up and put it on a bus or in the boot of a classic polo, but with some of the buggies today you need a van.
Quote from: tank90 on December 10, 2014, 11:28:47 PM
You could use the same aurgument with Disabled and Parent & Child car parking. Because on this score no parent with a child in a push chair that is a monster can be told to move there car to allow a disabled customer park. Why do I say that because most bus companies like car parking firms display the wheel chair sticker on the front of the bus and some times in the window of the bay. So what is the difference when painted on tarmac?
My personal opinion is that all buses should have two bays at the front on each side one with wheel chair users in mind and those who have Zimmers, then one on the other side for zimmers and buggies.
And the zones to be marked out like in a carpark. Because if my mum parked in a Parent and child space with me (yes im 24 but I'm still her child) she would be asked to move. As would a mother with a baby or toddler parking in a disabled space so why can't it happen on a bus?
But I do think with DDA buses parents and grandparents siblings have gotten into the habit of buying bulky buggies and prams which need a tool box to fold up to fit into a luggage rack or next to you in the seat well. I remember the light weight buggy my mum had in the early to mid 90's she could fold it up and put it on a bus or in the boot of a classic polo, but with some of the buggies today you need a van.
Exactly. Where I live we used to have Merry Hill Minibuses and Midland Red West (Kiddy depot) and both routes had steppys on. Lances for the MRW route and Sherpas/MCW Metroriders/Optare Metroriders for the TMH route.
The buggy I used to be put it was as lightweight as anything so it could be folded up easy (and when i outgrew it, my brother had it, then my other brother had it. Lightweight and built to last.
Working in a parking department my biggest bugbear is people who don't have a blue badge parking in those spaces (often business people or mothers with their baby's. They have normal parking spaces for them in Dudley (only 1 or 2 council car parks in the whole borough have P&T bays...)
Parents today have got so used to abusing facilities for the disabled like BB bays, or in the case of buses, wheelchair areas, that's why I advocate a return to parents folding up the pushchairs as compulsory, as a national bus policy.
Quote from: the trainbasher on December 11, 2014, 01:35:41 PM
Parents used to abusing facilities for the disabled like BB bays, or in the case of buses, wheelchair areas, that's why I advocate a return to parents folding up the pushchairs as compulsory, as a national bus policy.
Surely this would result in the loss of patronage from mothers. This day and age we should be encouraging more people to use public transport not give more reasons not to?
Maybe the solution is to reduce the number of seats? ;)
Take out all the seats at the front, just have a couple of rows at the back, put in more grab-rails to hold onto. Plenty of room for buggies and wheelchairs!
But I bet you'd still have people crowding in the narrow gangway or by the driver, making it a struggle to actually get on or off the bus.
Quote from: Stu on December 11, 2014, 08:00:16 PM
Maybe the solution is to reduce the number of seats? ;)
Take out all the seats at the front, just have a couple of rows at the back, put in more grab-rails to hold onto. Plenty of room for buggies and wheelchairs!
But I bet you'd still have people crowding in the narrow gangway or by the driver, making it a struggle to actually get on or off the bus.
Ok... Let's take the piss and take it one step further...
All buses should be dual door deckers, with no seats whatsoever downstairs.
Advocating compulsory folding up of buggies is unrealistic these days. Like it or not, a bit like modern cars, modern buggies are huge compared to how they were a few decades back. Many of them are 'transport systems' incorporating car seats and all sorts. Both my kids have been out of pushchairs for a little while now but take it from me, getting on a bus with a 2 year old and a 4 year old, trying to fold a modern buggy whilst attempting to hold a 2 year old and stopping the 4 year old falling flat on her face is no laughing matter.
I know parents had to do this years ago. But wheelchair users had to take a taxi years ago. Times change, pushchairs have changed, buses have changed.
The situation that prompted all this debate is an unusual one. There are relatively few wheelchair bus users and most parents with buggies would do what they could to help accommodate the wheelchair on the bus. We should get things into perspective.
Quote from: Mike K on December 11, 2014, 10:38:57 PM
Advocating compulsory folding up of buggies is unrealistic these days. Like it or not, a bit like modern cars, modern buggies are huge compared to how they were a few decades back. Many of them are 'transport systems' incorporating car seats and all sorts. Both my kids have been out of pushchairs for a little while now but take it from me, getting on a bus with a 2 year old and a 4 year old, trying to fold a modern buggy whilst attempting to hold a 2 year old and stopping the 4 year old falling flat on her face is no laughing matter.
I know parents had to do this years ago. But wheelchair users had to take a taxi years ago. Times change, pushchairs have changed, buses have changed.
The situation that prompted all this debate is an unusual one. There are relatively few wheelchair bus users and most parents with buggies would do what they could to help accommodate the wheelchair on the bus. We should get things into perspective.
Very diplomatic Michael.
Next thing is you'll be calling Christmas 'Winter Festival'.
(Hahaha! ;-) )
Just saying it as I see it LS.
And another thing. Being able to push a buggy straight onto a bus helps speed up loading and unloading times. Right, I've said my piece. Happy Christmas.
This is leading to a very healthy debate, not only on here but other forums as well.
What we DON't know in all of this is the position of the pushchair owner who wouldn't move and caused this whole case to go to court. Was she just being pedantic and saying, i was here first and i ain't folding my pushchair for anyone, OR was she taking her sick child to the doctors and wouldn't move and fold the pushchair because she was thinking of the welfare of the child OR any other number of reasons? Sadly we will never know.
I agree with Tonys comment that this shouldn't go any further, you cannot put the onus on the driver in these cases to sort the problem out. You have to rely on peoples decency and respect where pushchairs are concerned and wheelchairs users have to understand occasionally that they may not be able to board the bus of there choice!!