http://disabilitynewsservice.com/2014/11/court-appeal-set-definitive-ruling-bus-access-priority/
Personally if I was the mother I would have folded up my chair and let the wheel chair user on board, however the route could have been really frequent and they are just taking the mick. Debate???
QuoteA First Bus spokesman said that its policy was for wheelchair-users to have priority use of the wheelchair space, but that its drivers "have no actual power to require people to vacate this space".
And 9 times out of 10 if the driver did enforce the policy it'd be a case of tea no biscuits.
How did they cope before slf.
But there again buggys are just as bad, especially the modern monstrositys. Make them fold them all I say!!
I think Disabled people should have priority over buggies for the spaces, nine times out of ten buggies can be folded, they just aren't, whereas you can't turn a disability off or fold it away. I agree with Trainbasher all buggies be folded and out the way not just for the bays but for everyone else who has to 'negotiate' a way through when you get a tank blocking half the aisle.
They should definitely fold them up. Obviously wheel chair uses should get priority. It makes me laugh when mothers kick off when asked to fold up, say if theres already a couple of pushchairs on board. I remember this young girl going mental in cannock once swearing the lot ( proper chavvy slapper with council and dole dosser written through her like a stick of rock lol).
My only problem with this is that the court ruled First bus had broken the equality act. It is not equality if one person has more rights than another due to their disability or anything else for that matter. It should be the disabled priority act.
Do I think pushchairs should give up a space for a wheelchair. He'll yes & I have had so much verbal abuse for insisting a push chair user they needed to fold up a push chair as the space was needed for a wheelchair.
What I think would help is if All buses carried a sign saying "wheelchairs have priority in this space", like they do for pensioners in the first 2 seats "please give up these seats for elderly passengers or for those that require them" or similarly worded.
Item made the BBC national news at 1 o'clock. First who lost original case, appealed, case heard at Old Bailey today. BBC's opinion was it could lead to all bus companies having to give priority to wheelchair users over buggies. Result likely in a couple of weeks.
Quote from: JoNi on November 11, 2014, 01:26:38 PM
BBC's opinion was it could lead to all bus companies having to give priority to wheelchair users over buggies. Result likely in a couple of weeks.
I hope so, a step forward for common sense aswell as disabled rights.
What the Jezza candidates really kick off? That is so bad, remember the days when every buggie had to be folded away. Love to put one of them in their place if I ever used the bus.
They don't have time to fold em up they gotta be down the DSS for an appointment lol
Just to be the devils advocate.....
Disabled rights say disabled people have the rights to be treated like anyone else;
So does this mean they should wait in line like the rest of us? First come first served etc
~~
But yes, fold the damn buggies up you selfish ugly battered Northfield scumbag!
Quote from: Liverpool Street on November 11, 2014, 06:01:09 PM
But yes, fold the damn buggies up you selfish ugly battered Northfield scumbag!
Lmao
What if a wheelchair user is waiting for the bus and another is already on the bus, would they have to argue it out between them which one is more disabled? (also just playing devils advocate)
As far as I can tell from the original case, the driver asked people to vacate the wheelchair space. What more could the bus company do?
Is there any sort of special needs transport in leeds?
Some buggies cannot just be easily folded. Have you seen the size of some of them?
What was the mother supposed to do, get off and wait for the next bus? Maybe she would have missed her train connection and arrived an hour late and become embarrassed and lack in confidence. Could she sue under the equality act?
It's a tricky case, and I think one with no clear answers. The bus driver asked the lady to move, I don't think he could have done any more.
Quote from: Gareth on November 12, 2014, 12:41:25 PM
Some buggies cannot just be easily folded. Have you seen the size of some of them?
What was the mother supposed to do, get off and wait for the next bus? Maybe she would have missed her train connection and arrived an hour late and become embarrassed and lack in confidence. Could she sue under the equality act?
It's a tricky case, and I think one with no clear answers. The bus driver asked the lady to move, I don't think he could have done any more.
My biggest worry is that if First do lose the case at appeal the wheelchair space will be just that and have to remain empty if one is not aboard, which is 95% of the time. Bus companies will still want to provide buggy space, as that does increase passenger numbers and revenue, so we will end up with even fewer seats in the lower saloon
Maybe not easily folded but they can be folded
Quote from: Bob on November 12, 2014, 12:49:00 PM
Maybe not easily folded but they can be folded
But where does it go when folded? Who holds the baby while the parent is folding up the buggy? Where do the 15 shopping bags that are hanging on the handles go?
What's going to delay the journey more? Arguments between wheelchair passenger, parent and driver? Or the folding up and trying to store somewhere the spaceship sized buggy?
Whatever the outcome of the appeal. Someone is going to be very inconvenienced. Each side has it's own pros and cons.
Well then how about banning buggies from using buses then.
I'll say it again. How did parents cope prior to SLF?
Quote from: the trainbasher on November 12, 2014, 02:52:32 PM
Well then how about banning buggies from using buses then.
I'll say it again. How did parents cope prior to SLF?
A lot didn't catch them! That is my point above allowing buggies on buses has increased passenger numbers, those one or two extra a journey may make the difference between profit and loss
In my childhood, many many years ago, my parents managed to travel by bus into the city centre with myself and my sister without too many problems. I was old enough to walk so I either walked or was carried. My sister was in a pushchair which was small enough to be folded up and stowed under the stairs by the conductor. In those days, my local route was operated by Bristol KSW's or Lodekkas which certainly were pushchair unfriendly. The thing is that parents in those days prepared themselves for a journey by bus knowing that a large pram or pushchair was out of the question. These days, SLF's have made parents think that they can take anything on board irrespective of how much space they take up. What annoys me these days are the buggies built like Chieftan tanks that take up about 3 seats and are used to accommodate children who are old enough to walk.
A particular example I've seen on a couple of occasions is where someone with a buggy will get on the bus, park the buggy in the zone, and then take child out the buggy and go sit elsewhere on the bus with the child on their lap, or even put the child on a seat. The buggy could have been easily folded away (it didn't have masses of bags hanging from it), yet a space was taken up (preventing an unfoldable buggy coming on), and two seats were lost elsewhere for passengers to sit on.
Maybe they could get rid of the useless free Metro newspapers, all they do is end up littering the bus, and they fill up one of the little luggage racks available that people can put stuff into.
Disabled wheel-chair users have got more than adequate provision for transport locally by using WMSNT minibuses.
So, if we're going to be politically correct, in the interests of tackling equality and discrimination, let's open up all those minibuses to buggy-users .... ;)
Quote from: Stu on November 12, 2014, 07:40:34 PM
Maybe they could get rid of the useless free Metro newspapers, all they do is end up littering the bus, and they fill up one of the little luggage racks available that people can put stuff into.
No thanks, I quite enjoy a flick through the metro! They've nearly always run out by 10am anyway, most of the buggy brigade are only just starting out at that time.
Quote from: Ossie on November 12, 2014, 07:41:38 PM
Disabled wheel-chair users have got more than adequate provision for transport locally by using WMSNT minibuses.
So, if we're going to be politically correct, in the interests of tackling equality and discrimination, let's open up all those minibuses to buggy-users .... ;)
And let able-bodied people travel on Ring-And-Ride! :D
Hear hear!
Quote from: Stu on November 12, 2014, 07:40:34 PM
Maybe they could get rid of the useless free Metro newspapers, all they do is end up littering the bus, and they fill up one of the little luggage racks available that people can put stuff into.
Cannot see that happening as the bus companies get paid for having them on the buses - easy money when you think about it really.
As for the main question, we covered this in a CPC session at Worcester last year and there was much debate amongst the drivers. I don't think there is an easy answer because you may soon get to the stage where a driver of a bus with a wheelchair on already refuses another one getting on and then that company ends up in court again for discrimination. Also, the local newspapers love a story about the terrible way the big bad bus companies treat their passengers. You really cant win either way.
Quote from: the trainbasher on November 12, 2014, 02:52:32 PM
Well then how about banning buggies from using buses then.
I'll say it again. How did parents cope prior to SLF?
When I was a little lad, and just about old enough to walk, my mum would push my younger brother in the foldable pushchair she had up to the bus stop, then she'd pick up my brother, fold up the pushchair and then put it in the ample sized luggage rack on the bus while we travelled into Dudley town centre, with both of us on her lap, or me on the seat next to her; she'd never let either one of us out of her sight. As I got a little older and able to walk further, the bus trips stopped, and we'd walk all the way to Dudley and back.
Quote from: Ossie on November 12, 2014, 07:41:38 PM
Disabled wheel-chair users have got more than adequate provision for transport locally by using WMSNT minibuses.
Have they? Have you knowledge of someone who has tried to use ring & ride. How would you like having to book your journeys a week in advance just to make sure you could get where you are going, oh and you are housebound on Sundays, what time do you have to be home? Sorry no spaces that day you will have to get your hospital appointment changed!
Oh well, fair enough, Tony, I don't have that sort of knowledge of the R&R operation. I thought the booking/operation of it was a bit more flexible than it obviously is .....
I am completely in favour for wheelchair users to get the priority over buggy users - without a doubt!
But, while this may not be relevant to the matter, it annoys me how people just sit in the bay as happy as Larry, with nothing to warrant them sitting there, and won't move until a wheelchair/pushchair user asks them to move. It annoys me how some people have a lack of courtesy for others that have the allowance of the bay, whether its pushchair or wheelchair. I remember getting on the bus once, and these 4 people wouldn't move until the mother asked them to move so she could use the bay for her pushchair, even though they saw her wanting to get on, while the other bay was full with another pushchair.
Quote from: Tony on November 12, 2014, 12:47:49 PM
Quote from: Gareth on November 12, 2014, 12:41:25 PM
Some buggies cannot just be easily folded. Have you seen the size of some of them?
What was the mother supposed to do, get off and wait for the next bus? Maybe she would have missed her train connection and arrived an hour late and become embarrassed and lack in confidence. Could she sue under the equality act?
It's a tricky case, and I think one with no clear answers. The bus driver asked the lady to move, I don't think he could have done any more.
My biggest worry is that if First do lose the case at appeal the wheelchair space will be just that and have to remain empty if one is not aboard, which is 95% of the time. Bus companies will still want to provide buggy space, as that does increase passenger numbers and revenue, so we will end up with even fewer seats in the lower saloon
...at this rate the whole lower saloon would be disabled bays and fold up seats!!!
Quote from: Liverpool Street on November 12, 2014, 10:40:28 PM
Quote from: Tony on November 12, 2014, 12:47:49 PM
Quote from: Gareth on November 12, 2014, 12:41:25 PM
Some buggies cannot just be easily folded. Have you seen the size of some of them?
What was the mother supposed to do, get off and wait for the next bus? Maybe she would have missed her train connection and arrived an hour late and become embarrassed and lack in confidence. Could she sue under the equality act?
It's a tricky case, and I think one with no clear answers. The bus driver asked the lady to move, I don't think he could have done any more.
My biggest worry is that if First do lose the case at appeal the wheelchair space will be just that and have to remain empty if one is not aboard, which is 95% of the time. Bus companies will still want to provide buggy space, as that does increase passenger numbers and revenue, so we will end up with even fewer seats in the lower saloon
...at this rate the whole lower saloon would be disabled bays and fold up seats!!!
Ha, ha
Quote from: arrivadays on November 12, 2014, 10:02:30 PM
I am completely in favour for wheelchair users to get the priority over buggy users - without a doubt!
But, while this may not be relevant to the matter, it annoys me how people just sit in the bay as happy as Larry, with nothing to warrant them sitting there, and won't move until a wheelchair/pushchair user asks them to move. It annoys me how some people have a lack of courtesy for others that have the allowance of the bay, whether its pushchair or wheelchair. I remember getting on the bus once, and these 4 people wouldn't move until the mother asked them to move so she could use the bay for her pushchair, even though they saw her wanting to get on, while the other bay was full with another pushchair.
The other morning there was a crowd of people waiting to get on the bus, and even though there was a woman with a buggy in the queue, other people were getting on and sitting in the fold-down seats in the buggy zone! ???
Why should people be made to stand when there is fold down seats in the buggy bay then? Surely just an ounce of decent positioning would mean only 1 fold down is unable to be used instead of 3 or 4
Quote from: the trainbasher on November 13, 2014, 07:04:05 PM
Why should people be made to stand when there is fold down seats in the buggy bay then? Surely just an ounce of decent positioning would mean only 1 fold down is unable to be used instead of 3 or 4
My point was that people are willingly choosing to sit in the buggy zone, knowing full well that someone with a buggy will also be getting on. There were other seats available on the bus they could sit on.
I am always surprised that wheelchairs or pushchairs can even get to the bay, what with all those people standing by the luggage racks blocking the whole front of the bus aisle cause they don't want to stand (or sit) further back on the bus.
Quote from: Steveminor on November 13, 2014, 10:44:18 PM
I am always surprised that wheelchairs or pushchairs can even get to the bay, what with all those people standing by the luggage racks blocking the whole front of the bus aisle cause they don't want to stand (or sit) further back on the bus.
It is madness. I think its natural instinct to be close to the doors... Or to the driver? I don't know...
What I do know is its so uncomfortable to have passengers breathing down your neck and staring at you driving and such with a full load. Makes me shudder to think of it again. Glad those days are behind me ha.
Quote from: Liverpool Street on November 13, 2014, 10:51:24 PM
Quote from: Steveminor on November 13, 2014, 10:44:18 PM
I am always surprised that wheelchairs or pushchairs can even get to the bay, what with all those people standing by the luggage racks blocking the whole front of the bus aisle cause they don't want to stand (or sit) further back on the bus.
It is madness. I think its natural instinct to be close to the doors... Or to the driver? I don't know...
What I do know is its so uncomfortable to have passengers breathing down your neck and staring at you driving and such with a full load. Makes me shudder to think of it again. Glad those days are behind me ha.
Or maybe the person by the luggage racks standing is only going a couple of stops so why should they sit down just to get back up in a few seconds anyway. I personally stand if I am only going a few minutes up the road. There is no compulsory sit down if there is a seat but is merely a recommendation.
Sometimes, if its a fit female driver than thats another reason to stand by the luggage racks! :-)
Quote from: the trainbasher on November 13, 2014, 11:21:02 PM
Quote from: Liverpool Street on November 13, 2014, 10:51:24 PM
Quote from: Steveminor on November 13, 2014, 10:44:18 PM
I am always surprised that wheelchairs or pushchairs can even get to the bay, what with all those people standing by the luggage racks blocking the whole front of the bus aisle cause they don't want to stand (or sit) further back on the bus.
It is madness. I think its natural instinct to be close to the doors... Or to the driver? I don't know...
What I do know is its so uncomfortable to have passengers breathing down your neck and staring at you driving and such with a full load. Makes me shudder to think of it again. Glad those days are behind me ha.
Or maybe the person by the luggage racks standing is only going a couple of stops so why should they sit down just to get back up in a few seconds anyway. I personally stand if I am only going a few minutes up the road. There is no compulsory sit down if there is a seat but is merely a recommendation.
Sometimes, if its a fit female driver than thats another reason to stand by the luggage racks! :-)
I think that's too much of a rarity to be considered an excuse ;-) ha ha
I see very little justification for a buggy to get priority over a wheelchair and was surprised that First took this case so far.
Buggies can be folded, wheelchairs can't.
Parents choose to have/keep offspring but wheelchair users don't generally choose to be disabled.
Buggies the size of a small family car are generally way out of proportion to the size of the child and are a cumbersome nuisance, both on public transport and simply barging their way down the street or around shops.
A child can be carried or sat on a lap - a disabled person cannot.
The only circumstances which might give rise to difficulties are either very infrequent rural services or the last bus late at night (though why anyone would be out and about with a small infant I don't know).
What's worse is when a wheelchair user is not able to travel on the bus because there is a pushchair in the wheelchair bay, but empty, with the kids and parents upstairs. Lucky, the next bus was 2mins after!!
Quote from: Matt.N0056 on November 14, 2014, 05:46:02 PM
What's worse is when a wheelchair user is not able to travel on the bus because there is a pushchair in the wheelchair bay, but empty, with the kids and parents upstairs. Lucky, the next bus was 2mins after!!
The rule is, if I remember now... "Buggies must be occupied throughout the journey. If the buggy is left empty you would be asked to fold it down." - Words to that effect anyhow.