Once all the current E400's have been delivered to WB, NXWM's double fleet (assuming no more Spectra withdrawal's) will number 989, just shy of two thirds of the total fleet.
IIRC the proportion of double deckers hasn't been that high since TWM started withdrawing large chunks of the Metrobus fleet and replacing them with low floor single deckers.
Yes, I've noticed this as well Winston. Indeed except at Coventry (25 new B7RLEs), it seems almost all of the Mercedes have been replaced with double deckers, and probably some B10Ls as well.
I think it's great, nothing like a good fleet of double deckers - I recall having to travel, at the time, with two young children on Ipswich buses around the time they replaced Atlanteans with single deckers - standing was no pleasure especially with young children, and the worst of the worst were those appalling minibuses in Torbay - laden with elderly people carrying shopping, mostly standing - those Torbay routes are now covered by double decker Enviros, Tridents or in some cases Stagecoach Gold Enviros - many fully laden but everyone seated - how things change in two decades :)
Quote from: don on September 12, 2014, 01:00:47 PM
Yes, I've noticed this as well Winston. Indeed except at Coventry (25 new B7RLEs), it seems almost all of the Mercedes have been replaced with double deckers, and probably some B10Ls as well.
I think it's great, nothing like a good fleet of double deckers - I recall having to travel, at the time, with two young children on Ipswich buses around the time they replaced Atlanteans with single deckers - standing was no pleasure especially with young children, and the worst of the worst were those appalling minibuses in Torbay - laden with elderly people carrying shopping, mostly standing - those Torbay routes are now covered by double decker Enviros, Tridents or in some cases Stagecoach Gold Enviros - many fully laden but everyone seated - how things change in two decades :)
A large number of the B6LE's & Excels have also been replaced indirectly with double deckers through cascading existing single deckers.
Double deckers are the ultimate people mover over artics due to their size. The only downside is the top deck/back seat idiots they attract ::)
Can you remember when the double fleet proportion was last so high, I'm guessing it might be around early 2000 ish? I remember the TWM fleet was stood at circa 1800 buses, where it is now circa 1520 buses
Quote from: Winston on September 12, 2014, 12:52:29 PM
Once all the current E400's have been delivered to WB, NXWM's double fleet (assuming no more Spectra withdrawal's) will number 989, just shy of two thirds of the total fleet.
With the hybrids added I think it will be slightly more than 1000. Single deckers (including bendies) around 500 (assuming 60 Mercs remain and no B6LE or B10L). Yes Winston, this level of double deckers is almost back to the level in the early 2000s (presuming all 1800 vehicles were actually operational - as the fleet size at deregulation was about 1850, it seems likely the total included 'reserve fleet' buses to me. Realistically the double decker fleet would only increase by around 80 from the current level if remaining Mercs and bendies are replaced by them - unless there's an increase in overall fleet size.
Quote from: don on September 12, 2014, 05:33:23 PM
Quote from: Winston on September 12, 2014, 12:52:29 PM
Once all the current E400's have been delivered to WB, NXWM's double fleet (assuming no more Spectra withdrawal's) will number 989, just shy of two thirds of the total fleet.
With the hybrids added I think it will be slightly more than 1000. Single deckers (including bendies) around 500 (assuming 60 Mercs remain and no B6LE or B10L). Yes Winston, this level of double deckers is almost back to the level in the early 2000s (presuming all 1800 vehicles were actually operational - as the fleet size at deregulation was about 1850, it seems likely the total included 'reserve fleet' buses to me. Realistically the double decker fleet would only increase by around 80 from the current level if remaining Mercs and bendies are replaced by them - unless there's an increase in overall fleet size.
Don,
The 989 double deckers is total double deck fleet which already includes the hybrids, it will remain just shy of a 1000 until we know the make-up of 2015's orders. I think the 1800 was operational fleet back then, but the reserve fleet was sizeable as well. I agree at max 80 more double deckers, as once the remaining Mercs are gone, the next oldest single deckers will be the 2006 (56 plate) B7RLE which aren't to be withdrawn anytime soon.
If double deckers are the ultimate people movers why are they only in the uk ? Every country and city in Europe see single deckers and bendi buses as being better. In my experience, and i spend a lot of time abroad they are correct.
Quote from: andyr on September 13, 2014, 05:58:06 PM
If double deckers are the ultimate people movers why are they only in the uk ? Every country and city in Europe see single deckers and bendi buses as being better. In my experience, and i spend a lot of time abroad they are correct.
Land & road space is at a premium in the UK compared with our European counterparts, which is why we all live on top of one another and struggle to get about.
Another thing European's find it acceptable to stand on buses, where we in the UK want a seat. Artics can ultimately shift the most people but the proportion of seated to standee's in a lot lower than a double decker. I understand artics are more expensive to buy compared with a double decker and will do fewer miles per gallon due to their weight.
Hong Kong don't touch bendis either, they prefer tri-axle double deckers and the US & Canada have started taking increasing numbers of double deckers for work other than sightseeing
Quote from: andyr on September 13, 2014, 05:58:06 PM
If double deckers are the ultimate people movers why are they only in the uk ? Every country and city in Europe see single deckers and bendi buses as being better. In my experience, and i spend a lot of time abroad they are correct.
Possibly cost and capacity eg why pay 2 drivers on 2 single deckers when you can pay 1 driver 1 bus and near enough the same capacity? Not saying this is correct im just looking at it in a cost way. In Europe they are miles ahead of us brits. Theyre not too shy to invest.
I have considered over many decades that the double decker is the best bus for Britain, with plenty of seats for those travelling longer distances, this being due to the lack of Rapid transit systems.
I have recently had to reconsider my opinion, since the conversion of one of my local routes to single deck operation, that is the 59, which is single deck, due to it interworking with the 58. I find that loading and unloading on the very busy Coventry Road section seems quicker than with double deckers and due to the nature of the route there are plenty of seats available once the route turns off the Coventry Road. Many of the passengers on the Coventry Road only travel for a few stops. I wonder if the 60 would work better with single deckers. Turning at the Cranes Park terminus may be a difficulty.
The theoretical maximum capacity of the B7RLE is 100, compared with about 90 for the Tridents, but I doubt if this could ever be achieved.
In most of Europe the maximum height is 4 metres which is too low for an urban double decker - you can manage with a coach, like a Neoplan Skyliner, but you need more headroom for a bus. So those unfortunate continentals have long been used to standing. (And they've got used to hard seats if they can find one, which we'll have to get used to on the Metro as the new trams are off the peg ' Eurospec'.) Artics are OK but they weigh 18 tonnes or more for only fifty-odd seats, and they're 18 metres long compared to 11 metres for a decker, so you'd need more depots to keep them in.
Once 6116/7/22 enter service at PN, baring anymore Spectra's being withdrawn over & above those already reported on the forum, I make that 1000 double deckers in the NXWM fleet, a first for a good number of years!
Quote from: Winston on March 27, 2015, 02:51:36 PM
Once 6116/7/22 enter service at PN, baring anymore Spectra's being withdrawn over & above those already reported on the forum, I make that 1000 double deckers in the NXWM fleet, a first for a good number of years!
6118-21 should get to Pensnett over the weekend, so Monday will definitely be over 1000 baring a catastrophe
Quote from: Tony on March 27, 2015, 02:55:50 PM
6118-21 should get to Pensnett over the weekend, so Monday will definitely be over 1000 baring a catastrophe
It is a 1001 with 6123, but that's not likely to enter service yet.
The proportion of DD's hasn't been that high since the Metrobuses dominated the fleet IIRC
14'8" overall height on these omnicities, didn't realise that they was that high. No 14'6 bridge by sandwell and dudley train station for them then!
I remember when the Ailsas worked regularly under that bridge, and the height in the driver's cab said 14/9" if I remember right. But they went under without trouble.
Quote from: Liverpool Street on March 27, 2015, 05:25:48 PM
14'8" overall height on these omnicities, didn't realise that they was that high. No 14'6 bridge by sandwell and dudley train station for them then!
I have been in a metrobus which seems much higher then an ALX400. An ALX400 is around 14'5, that metrobus did fit comfortably under the Highgate road bridge, which is 14'3.
Quote from: ronnoc1k8 on March 27, 2015, 07:17:41 PM
I have been in a metrobus which seems much higher then an ALX400. An ALX400 is around 14'5, that metrobus did fit comfortably under the Highgate road bridge, which is 14'3.
Metrobus & Presidents 14'6, Tridents 14'5, B7TL ALX400 14'3,
Quote from: Liverpool Street on March 27, 2015, 05:25:48 PM
14'8" overall height on these omnicities, didn't realise that they was that high. No 14'6 bridge by sandwell and dudley train station for them then!
OmniCity 4697 is 13'11 if I remember correctly from Tuesday
Quote from: Liverpool Street on March 27, 2015, 07:46:03 PM
Metrobus & Presidents 14'6, Tridents 14'5, B7TL ALX400 14'3,
Although always labelled as 14'6" Metrobuses were actually about 14'3"
Quote from: Tony on March 27, 2015, 07:50:58 PM
Although always labelled as 14'6" Metrobuses were actually about 14'3"
No one was brave enough to test it though ;-)
Are Omnicities really that tall or does it take AVL Aerials and stuff into consideration?
Quote from: Matt on March 27, 2015, 08:10:12 PM
If you are still referring to the one by Sandwell & Dudley - I've been under there on a Metro.
D12; D13s & Ailsas were banned from services under there
Quote from: Matt on March 27, 2015, 08:10:12 PM
If you are still referring to the one by Sandwell & Dudley - I've been under there on a Metro.
No I meant no one who was driving a metro would risk going under a 14'3-14'5 bridge, even if the height is known to be 14'3. I've driven metros underneath there myself on some occasions, or another 14'6 bridge ibcsnt recall where.
In the early years of Metrobus operation, Hartshill drivers would take Fleetlines (14' 2") and Metrobuses (14' 6") under the railway bridge on Cradley Rd., junction Chester Rd. and Station St., Cradley Heath, to take up an afternoon Works Special. The bridge is marked 14' 3", but was well known to be higher. Care was exercised to ensure the soft suspension of the Metrobus did not bounce. Though no problem was ever encountered, the practice was banned, I believe, after a number of bridge incidents at other locations.
You have to be very careful with the bridges around Cradley, wasn't a Trident deroofed on a diversion in Cradley a few years ago
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on March 28, 2015, 04:18:24 PM
You have to be very careful with the bridges around Cradley, wasn't a Trident deroofed on a diversion in Cradley a few years ago
4253 was involved, if I was a bus driver and I took a wrong turn in to a road with a low bridge, I would never try and fit under the bridge.
It was the bridge that the 17 goes under.
The bridge the 243 goes under is suitable for deckers (4199 and a E400 both did it ok!)
Quote from: the trainbasher on March 28, 2015, 04:32:10 PM
It was the bridge that the 17 goes under.
The bridge the 243 goes under is suitable for deckers (4199 and a E400 both did it ok!)
Was 4253 taller then?
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on March 28, 2015, 04:36:43 PM
Was 4253 taller then?
The bridge was at Corngreaves road, the bridge was 13'3 I believe.
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on March 28, 2015, 04:36:43 PM
Was 4253 taller then?
The bridge in question is the tesco end of the high street.
The 243/53 uses the one at the Five Ways end of the high street.
Ailsas certainly were no banned from the Sandwell and Dudley Bridge - many's the time I went on them under it.
Quote from: Liverpool Street on March 27, 2015, 07:46:03 PM
Metrobus & Presidents 14'6, Tridents 14'5, B7TL ALX400 14'3,
I knew there was a size difference between the 2. Always thought the B7s were taller ::)
Out of all these fantastic double deckers we have, which do we have the most ?! I.e. do we have more Emviro 400s than Tridents and so on ...
@BusFan NXWM current fleetlist is on the main WMBusphotos website, link FYI
http://wmbusphotos.com/NXWM/fleetlist/Index%20page.html
Quote from: BusFan on March 30, 2015, 05:12:39 PM
Out of all these fantastic double deckers we have, which do we have the most ?! I.e. do we have more Emviro 400s than Tridents and so on ...
Check out the fleet list part of this site, you'll be able to do the calculations very easily from there. I worked them out once a couple of years ago in a few minutes, when I was finding it especially hard to sleep.
Based on more recent deliveries, and from memory, I reckon ALX400 Tridents 41XX, 43XX, 44XX, 45XX, 46XX are the most commonplace, then the various Enviro generation 47XX, 48XX, 49XX (two sorts if I'm correct), the Eclipses 45XX, 46XX, 47XX, ALX Volvos 42XX, 44XX and Presidents 40XX, the growing fleet of 61XX MMC Enviros now outnumber the fading 40XX Spectras, and last up, PB's half dozen 47XX Omnis. I've generalised massively here and ignored batch-creep and prototypes.
EDIT: I forgot the greeeen buses, 30 and 18 of each type.
By my reckoning, before withdrawals and based on memory and a fag-packet:
Dennis/ Transbus Trident ALX400 - 360
Transbus Enviro 400/ E40 - 166
B7TL Eclipse - 138
B7TL ALX400 - 110
B7TL President - 102
Enviro 400 Trident - 90
MMC Enviro - 48
E400 Hybrid? - 30
Spectra - 22
Volvo Hybrid? - 18
Scania Omnidecker - 6
Quote from: The Real 4778 on March 30, 2015, 05:57:56 PM
Check out the fleet list part of this site, you'll be able to do the calculations very easily from there. I worked them out once a couple of years ago in a few minutes, when I was finding it especially hard to sleep.
Based on more recent deliveries, and from memory, I reckon ALX400 Tridents 41XX, 43XX, 44XX, 45XX, 46XX are the most commonplace, then the various Enviro generation 47XX, 48XX, 49XX (two sorts if I'm correct), the Eclipses 45XX, 46XX, 47XX, ALX Volvos 42XX, 44XX and Presidents 40XX, the growing fleet of 61XX MMC Enviros now outnumber the fading 40XX Spectras, and last up, PB's half dozen 47XX Omnis. I've generalised massively here and ignored batch-creep and prototypes.
EDIT: I forgot the greeeen buses, 30 and 18 of each type.
I was attempting to save myself from all that ! I've always gather Tridents/ ALX400s are the most populous buses we have, it's a shame we don't have more OmniCity's