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Quote from: First Stock ReleaseUK Bus We are working through our comprehensive plan to recover performance and equip our UK Bus business to achieve sustainable revenue and patronage growth, and are seeing early positive signs in some of our markets. During the period we achieved steady growth with like-for-like passenger revenue expected to increase by 2.4%. As previously stated, we expect the full year operating margin to be approximately 8%. In line with our strategy to pursue selected business and asset disposals, today we are pleased to announce the sale of five of our London depots to Metroline, an existing London bus operator, and three of our London depots to Transit Systems Group, an Australian transport company, for a combined consideration of approximately GBP80m. Both disposals are subject to the necessary regulatory approvals including contractual obligations with Transport for London.[/url]
Quote from: trainbasher on April 09, 2013, 10:20:55 AM
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Quote from: First Stock ReleaseUK Bus We are working through our comprehensive plan to recover performance and equip our UK Bus business to achieve sustainable revenue and patronage growth, and are seeing early positive signs in some of our markets. During the period we achieved steady growth with like-for-like passenger revenue expected to increase by 2.4%. As previously stated, we expect the full year operating margin to be approximately 8%. In line with our strategy to pursue selected business and asset disposals, today we are pleased to announce the sale of five of our London depots to Metroline, an existing London bus operator, and three of our London depots to Transit Systems Group, an Australian transport company, for a combined consideration of approximately GBP80m. Both disposals are subject to the necessary regulatory approvals including contractual obligations with Transport for London.
First has sold all its London bus operation, the tiny bit unaccounted for is Dagenham depot, that currently has a Pvr of 84 buses, but this will be reduced by half once Stagecoach London take up their new Tfl tender wins later in the year
http://www.firstgroup.com/corporate/latest_news/?id=009241
Just saw this story on Route Ones Facebook page. I wonder how long the Australians will last, or if they will sell on to someone else.
Quote from: Gareth on April 09, 2013, 10:36:17 AM
Just saw this story on Route Ones Facebook page. I wonder how long the Australians will last, or if they will sell on to someone else.
I was expecting the other 3 depots to be sold to RAPT or Abellio rather than someone completely new. Is Transit the outfit that bought Diamond's MAN/MCV's?
I'm surprised NX haven't gone back into the London game yet
Quote from: trainbasher on April 09, 2013, 10:57:04 AM
I'm surprised NX haven't gone back into the London game yet
I'm surprised NX didn't end up buying the entire First London business, part of the reason they left last time was because Travel London didn't have scale & would taken too much money to grow it. First London had 11.57% share of the bus London market & a fleet of around 900 buses
Quote from: Winston on April 09, 2013, 10:38:32 AM
Quote from: Gareth on April 09, 2013, 10:36:17 AM
Just saw this story on Route Ones Facebook page. I wonder how long the Australians will last, or if they will sell on to someone else.
I was expecting the other 3 depots to be sold to RAPT or Abellio rather than someone completely new. Is Transit the outfit that bought Diamond's MAN/MCV's?
Yes it is but they are based in New Zeland
Quote from: Winston on April 09, 2013, 10:38:32 AM
Quote from: Gareth on April 09, 2013, 10:36:17 AM
Just saw this story on Route Ones Facebook page. I wonder how long the Australians will last, or if they will sell on to someone else.
I was expecting the other 3 depots to be sold to RAPT or Abellio rather than someone completely new. Is Transit the outfit that bought Diamond's MAN/MCV's?
Different Transit in New Zealand. Transit Systems (Australia) is an umbrella organisation, which was formed to oversee the operations of Swan Transit (Perth), Torrens Transit (Adelaide), Bay Islands Transit (Brisbane), Gladstone Ferries (Gladstone) and the combined Stradbroke Ferries and Big Red Cat (Brisbane). The London operation will be their first international fleet ( http://www.transitsystems.com.au/articles/315-australian-public-transport-innovator-acquires-first-international-fleet ). They also have been awarded Contract 3 in Sydney for 200 buses which will transition to Transit from October 2013.
Typical First spent loads of money in London and now have sold most of it off what was the point in that?
They should have leased the buses instead of buing them which would have ment some areas would have had new buses earlier.
Hydrogen buses?
Quote from: dgss1 on April 09, 2013, 05:41:04 PM
Hydrogen buses?
Powered by hydrogen rather than Diesel or Hybrid engines. They are on the RV1. Here is one -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/john-s-91/7274842450/
Oh dear! I warned against this move as it will deprive First of a supply of mid-life low floor double decks. Now they will have to buy new or second hand, or perhaps come to some agreement to buy some 200 ex First LFDDs once the new owners have finished with them.
sconehead85
I think this will help First.
Cascading old London vehicles to the non London operations is one of their problems. It starves the provincial fleets off new vehicles as all the investment goes towards the London fleet.
When Stagecoach re acquired the London opeartions they clearly stated that all new London vehicles would be leased and returned at the the end of the contact to avoid dumping them all on the provincial fleets.
This was also an issue with Nat Ex, I seem to remember the 2009 Enviro order for 60 vehicles for the West Midlands was reduced to 30 (4800> batch) the remaining 30 were sent to London
Quote from: Wolves256 on April 10, 2013, 12:27:02 PM
I think this will help First.
Cascading old London vehicles to the non London operations is one of their problems. It starves the provincial fleets off new vehicles as all the investment goes towards the London fleet.
When Stagecoach re acquired the London opeartions they clearly stated that all new London vehicles would be leased and returned at the the end of the contact to avoid dumping them all on the provincial fleets.
This was also an issue with Nat Ex, I seem to remember the 2009 Enviro order for 60 vehicles for the West Midlands was reduced to 30 (4800> batch) the remaining 30 were sent to London
Many London operators are now going down the leasing route rather than buying them outright, plus Tfl are hsifting towards supplying their own buses with buying 600 Borismasters to lease to operators over the next couple of years.
First could still buy batches of ex London / ex lease buses on the secondhand market, but may not have their preferred specifications etc and get the quantities they want?
NX also diverted most of the double deck order in 2005/6 to Travel London as large quantities of Gemini & Early E400 were delivered there, TWM only took the 10 x B7TL (4687-4696), 1 x Omnicity Double Decker (4697) & 1 x ADL E400 (4698) in 2005 & 38 x B7RLE (1750-1787) & 18 x B7TL (4700-4717) in 2006. It was the focus on expanding Travel London back then that is catching up with NXWM now, as the majority of its decker fleet are now getting on for between 9 - 14 years old
I also think this will help First.
With the big disposals now sorted, this should enable the business to concentrate on getting itself back into shape.
First and Stagecoach- particularly the latter- have got HUNDREDS of Volvo Olympians to remove and are not ordering sufficient new buses to replace them. Stagecoach will HAVE to cascade if they are to meet the 2016 DDA deadline, mainly from the 17xxx series Dennis Tridents.
If London goes for leasing, who is going to buy new?
sconehead85
If you look at it Stagecoach are better at buying than First but if you look at how much First has spent in London in the last 3 years then First wouldnt have any Step DDs and or very few Singles too.
Quote from: tank90 on April 10, 2013, 11:32:00 PM
If you look at it Stagecoach are better at buying than First but if you look at how much First has spent in London in the last 3 years then First wouldnt have any Step DDs and or very few Singles too.
I did see it suggested on one of the forums, that some of the more recent First London deliveries may be leased, which may account for the big differences in the prices paid in the two separate deals i.e. Metroline paid £57.5million for 494 buses, whilst Transit Systems paid £21.3 million for 400 buses. I was also under the impression that First may have bid low to secure the 100 buses worth of work off Stagecoach for Lea Interchange i.e. Tfl routes 25, 26 & 30. First London were only producing approx 4% profit margins overall, with the sale of First London, UK bus profit margins overall will actually increase from the current 8% up to around 10%+
Quote from: sconehead85 on April 10, 2013, 10:08:25 PM
First and Stagecoach- particularly the latter- have got HUNDREDS of Volvo Olympians to remove and are not ordering sufficient new buses to replace them. Stagecoach will HAVE to cascade if they are to meet the 2016 DDA deadline, mainly from the 17xxx series Dennis Tridents.
If London goes for leasing, who is going to buy new?
sconehead85
Whether leased of purchased doesn't make any difference to the total number of new vehicles. All leasing means is leasing companies own the vehicles instead of operating companies. They will still be available when they have finished the initial lease.
What will stop the supply of ex London Double decks to the provinces is the Borismaster Currently most routes in London are allocated on 7 year deals so there is currently a supply of 7 year old buses for purchase or transfer within large groups.
Some Routes are then allocated second hand buses so some stay in London so are available later.
With Borismasters going to all do 15 years in London before release their is going to be a big gap after the older buses finish coming out of London and the first Borismasters do
Quote from: sconehead85 on April 10, 2013, 10:08:25 PM
First and Stagecoach- particularly the latter- have got HUNDREDS of Volvo Olympians to remove and are not ordering sufficient new buses to replace them. Stagecoach will HAVE to cascade if they are to meet the 2016 DDA deadline, mainly from the 17xxx series Dennis Tridents.
If London goes for leasing, who is going to buy new?
sconehead85
im sure both Stagecoach & Firstbus have got plans for it
- Firstbus can now order more buses for other fleets in next years order without having london to update
- Stagecoach,If stagecoach order 500 new buses next year for 14/15 then thats DAA Sorted
Stagecoach have still got 120 Volvo B10M buses to clear out as well as 400-500 Volvo Olympians so they have still distance to go.
sconehead85
Quote from: TonyWhether leased of purchased doesn't make any difference to the total number of new vehicles. All leasing means is leasing companies own the vehicles instead of operating companies. They will still be available when they have finished the initial lease.
What will stop the supply of ex London Double decks to the provinces is the Borismaster Currently most routes in London are allocated on 7 year deals so there is currently a supply of 7 year old buses for purchase or transfer within large groups.
Some Routes are then allocated second hand buses so some stay in London so are available later.
With Borismasters going to all do 15 years in London before release their is going to be a big gap after the older buses finish coming out of London and the first Borismasters do.
The Borismaster is the achillees heel for the bus industry. Prior to its arrival, bus operators could buy standardised buses for London work built to a London specification, and when the contract ended transfer up for provincial operations mid life buses with the London foibles (like the middle door) taken out.
Now operators are faced with the prospect of leasing Borismasters for their London operations which they will be stuck with for 15 years and which, after that length of time will be fit for scrap, and having to acquire new buses for their out of London companies once the tap of Tridents, Enviro 400's, Geminis, Presidents etc is turned off.
Also many smaller operators (e.g. Green Bus) have bought mid life London buses for their operations. Without these being available where are they going to acquire buses from, as I can't see the likes of First or Stagecoach selling their surplus stock willingly to potential competitors who could undermine their profits?
Quote from: Kevin_Brum12 on April 14, 2013, 11:44:54 AM
The Borismaster is the achillees heel for the bus industry. Prior to its arrival, bus operators could buy standardised buses for London work built to a London specification, and when the contract ended transfer up for provincial operations mid life buses with the London foibles (like the middle door) taken out.
Now operators are faced with the prospect of leasing Borismasters for their London operations which they will be stuck with for 15 years and which, after that length of time will be fit for scrap, and having to acquire new buses for their out of London companies once the tap of Tridents, Enviro 400's, Geminis, Presidents etc is turned off.
Also many smaller operators (e.g. Green Bus) have bought mid life London buses for their operations. Without these being available where are they going to acquire buses from, as I can't see the likes of First or Stagecoach selling their surplus stock willingly to potential competitors who could undermine their profits?
On the other hand...
So far it looks like Borismasters are only going to be supplied by TfL for Inner London trunk services. TfL is leasing Borismasters to operators with the contracts to run these services, so it will be the bus routes, rather than necessarily the operators, that will be 'stuck' with them for 15 years.
Away from these trunk services it looks like the current system of getting operators to provide their own 'mainstream' buses - including double decks - for all other parts of the TfL empire will continue.
Also, I don't know if you recall that when Stagecoach bought back its London operations, it announced that it would lease buses for London in the future. This seems to have pleased provincial Stagecoach companies who - in due course - will no longer have tired mid-life London-spec buses foisted on them when other types would be more suitable. I believe some other London operators also lease their buses.
So I think that the Borismasters will reduce, but not end, the number of mid-life buses available on the secondhand market in a few years' time.
Quote from: Justin Tyme on April 14, 2013, 12:29:27 PM
Quote from: Kevin_Brum12 on April 14, 2013, 11:44:54 AM
The Borismaster is the achillees heel for the bus industry. Prior to its arrival, bus operators could buy standardised buses for London work built to a London specification, and when the contract ended transfer up for provincial operations mid life buses with the London foibles (like the middle door) taken out.
Now operators are faced with the prospect of leasing Borismasters for their London operations which they will be stuck with for 15 years and which, after that length of time will be fit for scrap, and having to acquire new buses for their out of London companies once the tap of Tridents, Enviro 400's, Geminis, Presidents etc is turned off.
Also many smaller operators (e.g. Green Bus) have bought mid life London buses for their operations. Without these being available where are they going to acquire buses from, as I can't see the likes of First or Stagecoach selling their surplus stock willingly to potential competitors who could undermine their profits?
On the other hand...
So far it looks like Borismasters are only going to be supplied by TfL for Inner London trunk services. TfL is leasing Borismasters to operators with the contracts to run these services, so it will be the bus routes, rather than necessarily the operators, that will be 'stuck' with them for 15 years.
Away from these trunk services it looks like the current system of getting operators to provide their own 'mainstream' buses - including double decks - for all other parts of the TfL empire will continue.
Also, I don't know if you recall that when Stagecoach bought back its London operations, it announced that it would lease buses for London in the future. This seems to have pleased provincial Stagecoach companies who - in due course - will no longer have tired mid-life London-spec buses foisted on them when other types would be more suitable. I believe some other London operators also lease their buses.
So I think that the Borismasters will reduce, but not end, the number of mid-life buses available on the secondhand market in a few years' time.
Yes I agree, the Borismaster goes back to traditional London thinking like the RT & Routemaster. 'This is the bus that we need in London' everyone else can have buses they think suit their needs. If you want ex London buses you can have them when they have paid their purchase price back to Londoners.
All we need now is for a massive works to do overhauls on them mid-life and 'bingo'.
Why would anyone want 7-15 year buses of an odd design dumped on them as either an operator or passenger I don't know.
This craze started with the DMSs which with their staircases designed for the centre exit being dumped all over the country and hasn't stopped since.
Quote from: Justin Tyme on April 14, 2013, 12:29:27 PM
On the other hand...
So far it looks like Borismasters are only going to be supplied by TfL for Inner London trunk services. TfL is leasing Borismasters to operators with the contracts to run these services, so it will be the bus routes, rather than necessarily the operators, that will be 'stuck' with them for 15 years.
Away from these trunk services it looks like the current system of getting operators to provide their own 'mainstream' buses - including double decks - for all other parts of the TfL empire will continue.
Also, I don't know if you recall that when Stagecoach bought back its London operations, it announced that it would lease buses for London in the future. This seems to have pleased provincial Stagecoach companies who - in due course - will no longer have tired mid-life London-spec buses foisted on them when other types would be more suitable. I believe some other London operators also lease their buses.
So I think that the Borismasters will reduce, but not end, the number of mid-life buses available on the secondhand market in a few years' time.
London currently has a Pvr of 7635 buses, only 600 Borismasters have been ordered to date, the remainder of the London bus requirement will continue to be standard diesels for some time to come yet
Quote from: Winston on April 14, 2013, 01:11:27 PM
Quote from: Justin Tyme on April 14, 2013, 12:29:27 PM
On the other hand...
So far it looks like Borismasters are only going to be supplied by TfL for Inner London trunk services. TfL is leasing Borismasters to operators with the contracts to run these services, so it will be the bus routes, rather than necessarily the operators, that will be 'stuck' with them for 15 years.
Away from these trunk services it looks like the current system of getting operators to provide their own 'mainstream' buses - including double decks - for all other parts of the TfL empire will continue.
Also, I don't know if you recall that when Stagecoach bought back its London operations, it announced that it would lease buses for London in the future. This seems to have pleased provincial Stagecoach companies who - in due course - will no longer have tired mid-life London-spec buses foisted on them when other types would be more suitable. I believe some other London operators also lease their buses.
So I think that the Borismasters will reduce, but not end, the number of mid-life buses available on the secondhand market in a few years' time.
London currently has a Pvr of 7635 buses, only 600 Borismasters have been ordered to date, the remainder of the London bus requirement will continue to be standard diesels for some time to come yet
What will be interesting is when Wright lose exclusive rights to build 'Borismasters' and other builders are allowed to bid. I think wright have the exclusive rule for 5 years
Quote from: Tony on April 14, 2013, 03:19:53 PM
What will be interesting is when Wright lose exclusive rights to build 'Borismasters' and other builders are allowed to bid. I think wright have the exclusive rule for 5 years
Wasn't aware of that one, I had assumed Wrights had won the sole right to build the Borismaster.
Surely Wrights will still have the competitive advantage, as they were involved with the design & development from scratch and already have the production line up & running. If ADL for example were to commence building Borismasters, Tfl would need to order sufficient quantities to offset the cost of setting up a new production line / training staff etc
Quote from: Winston on April 14, 2013, 04:06:22 PM
Quote from: Tony on April 14, 2013, 03:19:53 PM
What will be interesting is when Wright lose exclusive rights to build 'Borismasters' and other builders are allowed to bid. I think wright have the exclusive rule for 5 years
Wasn't aware of that one, I had assumed Wrights had won the sole right to build the Borismaster.
Surely Wrights will still have the competitive advantage, as they were involved with the design & development from scratch and already have the production line up & running. If ADL for example were to commence building Borismasters, Tfl would need to order sufficient quantities to offset the cost of setting up a new production line / training staff etc
There's a good chance that 5 years will be enough to build all the Borismasters TfL need. I can't see anyone else buying any, although I guess the best affordable features will probably appear in a more mainstream vehicle.
Quote from: Justin Tyme on April 14, 2013, 06:37:47 PM
Quote from: Winston on April 14, 2013, 04:06:22 PM
Quote from: Tony on April 14, 2013, 03:19:53 PM
What will be interesting is when Wright lose exclusive rights to build 'Borismasters' and other builders are allowed to bid. I think wright have the exclusive rule for 5 years
Wasn't aware of that one, I had assumed Wrights had won the sole right to build the Borismaster.
Surely Wrights will still have the competitive advantage, as they were involved with the design & development from scratch and already have the production line up & running. If ADL for example were to commence building Borismasters, Tfl would need to order sufficient quantities to offset the cost of setting up a new production line / training staff etc
There's a good chance that 5 years will be enough to build all the Borismasters TfL need. I can't see anyone else buying any, although I guess the best affordable features will probably appear in a more mainstream vehicle.
I agree, the Borismaster was a 'new bus for London' I can't see anyone else being interested in taking the type
The "BoirsMaster" is an easy flo design, both up and stairs, I can see Lothian being interested in it for there airport service as they dont need the central door, but I can't see much use in the UK for it. But the World market might want an easy flo Double Decker it just depends on if it works in London. I'm sure people where saying the same about the Route Master behind closed doors and they proved a it outside of London so NBfL may aslo find some surpport from elsewhere in the UK.
Quote from: tank90 on April 15, 2013, 09:22:32 PM
The "BorisMaster" is an easy flo design, both up and stairs, I can see Lothian being interested in it for there airport service as they dont need the central door, but I can't see much use in the UK for it. But the World market might want an easy flo Double Decker it just depends on if it works in London. I'm sure people where saying the same about the Route Master behind closed doors and they proved a it outside of London so NBfL may aslo find some surpport from elsewhere in the UK.
Well, who knows what may happen in the world market? The Borismaster is certainly a quality bus but I am sure it would be *alot* more expensive to buy than the mainstream hybrids, which are no doubt up to the job in the rest of the UK. It was the same story with the Routemaster - a fine bus but over-specified for non-London operators, who could get types that were fine for them more cheaply.