Does anyone else think its wrong that arriva are allowed to now have a complete monopoly in Cannock? The state of the buses is already bad and can surely only get worse? Why do garages like Tamworth get lots of investment and Telford at least maintain their older buses to a high standard yet Cannock are consistently poor? Surely there should be at least an element of competition on key routes???
bob- As an outsider I have been doing some research, and the answer is NO.
Cannocks population is 30,000 and is simply too small to sustain two commercial operators.
The town is surrounded by Cannock Chase - green belt and the nearest towns and cities only Wolverhampton and Walsall MIGHT sustain a second operator (Nat Ex WM) but other towns such as Lichfield, Rugeley and Stafford have only villages and green belt between them.
The only hope is perhaps in tendered service provision. Forget bus wars- they are only short lived affairs. A small time competitor is only likely to provide poor quality vehicles of the type you complain about as regards to Arriva.
Lo siento, Roberto! Grass and trees are pretty but they dont pay bus fares!
sconehead85
Rubbish! We used to have the Green Bus Service, West Midlands Travel operated most services to Walsall ( midland reds X31 used to go through Walsall in the 90s), Chase Bus Services and others!
The Cannock to Walsall and Cannock to Wolverhampton services in particular could do with some competition. If NXWM competed with Arriva to Walsall theyd prob win
Quote from: bob on February 27, 2013, 12:52:04 AM
The Cannock to Walsall and Cannock to Wolverhampton services in particular could do with some competition. If NXWM competed with Arriva to Walsall theyd prob win
Could NX be a**ed thesedays?
As far as Walsall to Cannock, dont look like it currently!
Between Walsall & Bloxwich, which route would they use?
Bloxwich Road or Somerfield Road?
They would prob go through leamore
More competition in Cannock...............you have answered your own question,if it were worth it would NX have withdrawn,and Green Bus found it so lucrative that the Company folded.
Bus companies exist not to provide competition for it's own sake but to make a profit.Cannock has been tried and found to be unsuccessful.
There must have been some call for more than one operator before, otherwise NX and TWM before wouldn't have operated the 950/1/2/3 and 351 for so long
Green bus didnt bloody fold there licence was revoked, chase got pushed out by arriva registering on their Walsall service and obviously Midland have been took over. Nx should do to arriva what they did to chase theyd wipe the floor with them if they competed on the 1 ! And also provide links to other bits of WM £3.90 or £6 for a daysaver? I know which id use
It has been since midland red days fares differed between wm and the staffs area. Wm fares are set by the PTE hense all single fares cost the same NX moved out of the shires as non of it was making money regardless of passenger loads and buses used plus they never charged cross border fares like they should have, also NX did a 350 service which followed the 1 route and only ran on peaks so did not make much money otherwise it would still be on today.
Been on the X96 today on an R reg merc and a refurbedd T reg on the way back, interiors of both were in better nick than the Arriva route 1 branded buses and despite the R reg sounding rough it still didnt sound as bad as the 1 buses
Wasn't there a operator who ran 1 bus think he had a leyland
National
Yes used to operate the 19 to Wimblebury in a nbc green National
thats the the one with the ley nat what was the operaor called
Dont know cant remember
bob- Economic reality, not rubbish. Whether you like it or not, the future is with the big companies. Have you forgotten PREMIERE? And that was in Nottingham- a major city.
If bus companies dont wish to waste money on bus wars no one will make them. There is also a RECESSION on.
Perhaps the best way is for someone to pressurise Arriva to improve- no easy task given that I live in a mainly Arriva area. Grass and trees dont pay bus fares.
As for Chase Coaches they had a fleet of 30-year old Leyland Nationals which simply had to be retired!
sconehead85
So the future is big huge private empires then? Wheres the choice that privatisation was supposed to bring? Non existent! Maggie the rotten b***h!
Quote from: sconehead85 on February 27, 2013, 06:26:29 PM
bob- Economic reality, not rubbish. Whether you like it or not, the future is with the big companies. Have you forgotten PREMIERE? And that was in Nottingham- a major city.
If bus companies dont wish to waste money on bus wars no one will make them. There is also a RECESSION on.
Perhaps the best way is for someone to pressurise Arriva to improve- no easy task given that I live in a mainly Arriva area. Grass and trees dont pay bus fares.
As for Chase Coaches they had a fleet of 30-year old Leyland Nationals which simply had to be retired!
Thank God some readers of this forum have a grasp of reality..................many posters seem to think it is only necessary to run a service and passengers will miraculously appear.
Like I keep saying,Cannock does not justify a serious competitor.
Why do you think that Arriva,a huge multinational operator with vast resources,does not consider Cannock worthy of expensive investment?
Managers in senior positions in any large operator are not stupid.
The trouble is passenger numbers are falling. I remember a time that yes the 991 was so lucrative that twm & Petes competed head to head on it. If I remember Petes used to take in excess of £200 a day on it. But there are so few passengers on it now that it barely breaks even & that's with just 1 operator, so there is no way it could support 2.
The same can be said for a lot of routes & not only in Cannock. As has been said on another thread look at the 146 once every 20 mins now hourly with hardly any peak running.
It's not as if other operators haven't wanted to compete in Cannock, I know of 3 who have seriously looked at operating in the Cannock area, it's just they can't see anything as being profitable enough.
Which 3 are those then?
bob- The whole bus deregulation thing was a con-trick played by out-of-touch wealthy Tories whose only encounter with buses were "darn big nuisances which stopped one driving one's Bentley a little faster". A fit of good sense stopped them inflicting deregulation upon London.
The 1985 Transport Act was the b*****d child of wealthy toffs who didnt give the price of a wet bus ticket about the transport needs of those too poor to buy a car.
Even in 1986 it was known there were few golden eggs in running bus services. In those days there was an abundance of cheap second-hand buses and reddundant drivers with which to start bus companies up. Now the chickens have come to roost- the drivers made redundant in 1986 were not replaced, there is an ageing workforce (I see few young bus drivers) and the banks will not lend to a small time bus operator these days. Those small firms which havent been taken over could/have been dropping like flies in the last year or so.
One of the greatest failures of the Blair-Brown government was their abject failure to repeal the poisonous 1985 Act and re-regulate bus operation.
Co-ordination and regulation not competition is the only way to better bus services. So in Cannock, Catterick or Clackmannan dont hold your breath!
sconehead85
Sorry bob but I won't disclose confidential information especially not on a public forum. Suffice it to say they ranged from what people on here perceive as the good & cowboy operators.
I have looked at routes in Cannock myself & am sorry to say I can't see anywhere busy enough to support 2 operators. Yes there are routes which a fairly well used but you have to remember that any new operator can only really expect to get 30% of the passengers at most during the first few months of operation. In Cannock that would mean running at a considerable loss for some time. In today's climate there aren't many companies that could or would risk that outlay
I think as ive said if nxwm were to compete on the 1 to Walsall they would get the lions share of passengers. Admittedly routes like the 62 ( once a profitable service now operated by crap midibuses), 68, possibly the 70 probably wouldnt be. I do think theres a market for a decent ( going nowhere NEAR the M6!) bus service to Birmingham. The number of times ive gone for the train and it hasnt turned up has put me off for life. Even the X31 with its timekeeping issues wasnt that unreliable. It was unfortunate what happened with it but says it all about how rubbish Arriva route planners/management are that they even CONSIDERED running a bus down the M6! Drivers at the time said it wouldnt work! Also using normal buses on what was supposed to be a flagship express route? Surely DP seated vehicles couldve been found from somewhere at the very least. But thats consigned to history now
I am afraid the passenger count like most have said would not support 2 operators most of Cannocks operations yes were good but that was in the past and operated badly now I am suprised if it just breaks even. With the constant tinkering and messing people in the shires have just got hacked off with Arriva and just got cars so folks getting on has nose dived and even with new buses or a bus war you propose and cheaper fare offers it would just bankrupt both companies. Bus companies are getting less and less in revenue from concessonary passes (and the future of the all England pass is in doubt due to cost as it was just a grey vote winner.). As much as the all England pass is good the costs were not taken propperly into account by the last Labour govt and it is costing a fortune just like the Scottish and Welsh passes too. Eventually the fuel duty rebate bus companies get will go completely so either fares (even in PTE areas) will either have to go up or council tax payers will pay more or more routes will have to be cut. Where is the money going to come from to compete just sticking buses on to take arriva on will cost a lot of money. (Even though I do agree Arriva need a competetor in Cannock its just not economically sound).
Well Arriva are s###e dave so expect ridership in cannock to decline terminally lol along with the crap state of the buses ( if thats possible)
Bob, maybe you and Dave could start your own bus company? ::)
To be fair if I could drive buses, had an o license and the money Id have a stab at the X31 with deckers
I wonder if Cannock does barely make a profit now?
Quote from: Peter123 on February 28, 2013, 07:43:16 PM
To be fair if I could drive buses, had an o license and the money Id have a stab at the X31 with deckers
Which route would you take it?
Quote from: Stu on February 28, 2013, 07:38:40 PM
Bob, maybe you and Dave could start your own bus company? ::)
not bob and Dave bob and Reiss
Quote from: dgss1 on February 28, 2013, 07:45:25 PM
Quote from: Stu on February 28, 2013, 07:38:40 PM
Bob, maybe you and Dave could start your own bus company? ::)
not bob and Dave bob and Reiss
Whats that supposed to mean? I dont make ludicrous route suggestions...
No you don't, you think Cannock could have as much transport routes and competing, but Cannock is a small town of 65,022,with 27.7% of the populationwithout cars which means approximately 16,255 people using buses so with that small figure getting smaller, it's unlikely that Cannock (sadly) won't have a good bus network,but with profits so low chances are Arriva will sell it.
Quote from: dgss1 on February 28, 2013, 07:45:25 PM
Quote from: Stu on February 28, 2013, 07:38:40 PM
Bob, maybe you and Dave could start your own bus company? ::)
not bob and Dave bob and Reiss
Cannock > Merry hill cnt every 20 mins were we comming ;D ;D ;D
'Chances are Arriva will sell it'? But if its an unprofitable basket case whod want to buy it?
Quote from: bob on February 28, 2013, 08:41:22 PM
'Chances are Arriva will sell it'? But if its an unprofitable basket case whod want to buy it?
Diamond? hell, they might aswell, another Redditch all over
Quote from: Kevin on February 28, 2013, 09:24:28 PM
Quote from: bob on February 28, 2013, 08:41:22 PM
'Chances are Arriva will sell it'? But if its an unprofitable basket case whod want to buy it?
Diamond? hell, they might aswell, another Redditch all over
Redditch should be good operating territory and as someone who uses local buses there, they often do well
Diamond?? They'd proberbly have the Pye Greens ever 20 seconds like they do with the 301!! I wonder how The Green Bus would cope competing in Cannock
Quote from: Kevin on February 28, 2013, 09:24:28 PM
Quote from: bob on February 28, 2013, 08:41:22 PM
'Chances are Arriva will sell it'? But if its an unprofitable basket case whod want to buy it?
Diamond? hell, they might aswell, another Redditch all over
right,so people are complaing about Arrivas buses & want to replace them with a company known for Nasty Darts ::) & do you realy think that if diamond get arriva cannock buses they will change the interior 1 bit? ::)
Quote from: CRP2012 on February 28, 2013, 10:18:46 PM
Quote from: Kevin on February 28, 2013, 09:24:28 PM
Quote from: bob on February 28, 2013, 08:41:22 PM
'Chances are Arriva will sell it'? But if its an unprofitable basket case whod want to buy it?
Diamond? hell, they might aswell, another Redditch all over
right,so people are complaing about Arrivas buses & want to replace them with a company known for Nasty Darts ::) & do you realy think that if diamond get arriva cannock buses they will change the interior 1 bit? ::)
Kinda meant tongue in cheek, but take it whichever way you will....
I doubt Diamond would be bothered with Cannock, although nxwm apparently were considering taking over the whole network & running it from Walsall not that long ago supposedly just prior to the Chase takeover. I wonder what happened there
Well it ay just the interior is it, its deciding what colour diamond they'd use lol.....I think well stick with Arriva for the time being ;)
You never know tho mate, you gotta admit it does look like Arriva havent got much interest in running Cannock any more ...
Maybe Travel Express lol..... Be nice to see somr antique buses pottering about in Cannock ;D
True but I think its a case (and I'm not slating arriva) of they think there the "big boys" of cannock, no competitors so they can do what they like
Yea but if its not that profitable they might just f##k it off
Must admit Id like NX to take over Cannock, but would that mean, if they closed Cannock & run operations from Walsall(68 & 70 from Wolves I guess!), would they keep routes terminating in Cannock, or would there be an increase in routes continuing to & from Walsall.
Personally Id like to see them back down Somerfield Rd in Leamore, as Arriva's always late!
Quote from: Stu on February 28, 2013, 07:38:40 PM
Bob, maybe you and Dave could start your own bus company? ::)
Bus driving is a thankless job I would only get behind the wheel of a bus if I could get £1000 a week running a company no chance just rather watch others fail thanks.
Only thing if nxwm took over, if its anything like the 301/302/529 you'll have about d or 6 buses turn up together!! As for the somerfield road.... Have u never clocked the traffic from the junction by nisa in leamore and the 4 crosses round about! When I used to drive my car down there I always got stuck no matter what the time of the day was
Lol so seriously then does anyone think Arriva might be planning to flog their Cannock operation?
I can't see it myself m8
I could, look at how they get the crap of the fleet and they dont bother re furbing anything or maintaining ?
I can see some cuts probably coming on some services as well, the 25/26 at the freq their at cant be making money?
If nxwm took over i couldnt see em increasing walsall routes but they might absorb some in to others, like get rid of 25/6 and run walsall to hednesford. Thatd actually make sense if arriva did it
bob-I have mentioned this as well- Arriva purchased and acquired a VAST number of Dennis Dart SLF/MPDs in the run up to 2000, and would need to order 500 single decks alone just to remove those not from the Transbus era. I see no sign of such an order. Arriva TGM still have some work to do replacing step-entry double decks and the dozen or so s/e single decks as well.
Until such an order materialises, Arriva are stuck.
sconehead85
Quote from: Westy on March 01, 2013, 10:46:11 AM
Must admit Id like NX to take over Cannock, but would that mean, if they closed Cannock & run operations from Walsall(68 & 70 from Wolves I guess!), would they keep routes terminating in Cannock, or would there be an increase in routes continuing to & from Walsall.
Personally Id like to see them back down Somerfield Rd in Leamore, as Arriva's always late!
Id love to see them take over as well!!
Quote from: bob on March 01, 2013, 01:34:22 PM
Lol so seriously then does anyone think Arriva might be planning to flog their Cannock operation?
ARRIVA (the idots that put on a four carrige train peak time when there max is 11) have made a dog's dinner of cannock and with the figures shown last post there is a 75% chance cannock will be sold, or fall apart by itself.
Quote from: dgss1 on March 01, 2013, 08:35:35 PM
Quote from: bob on March 01, 2013, 01:34:22 PM
Lol so seriously then does anyone think Arriva might be planning to flog their Cannock operation?
ARRIVA (the idots that put on a four carrige train peak time when there max is 11) have made a dog's dinner of cannock and with the figures shown last post there is a 75% chance cannock will be sold, or fall apart by itself.
if its that bad then they wont be able to sell it on,wonder what would happen if arriva withdrew all services without selling & cannock`s left without a bus service,it might happen if arriva want rid but carnt sell it
Quote from: CRP2012 on March 01, 2013, 09:10:28 PM
if its that bad then they wont be able to sell it on,wonder what would happen if arriva withdrew all services without selling & cannock`s left without a bus service,it might happen if arriva want rid but carnt sell it
Impossible. In this case it isn't two letters two long. I'm no lawyer but I dont think that arriva can just do that. Plus they shoudnt risk making bob angrier.
I have never heard so much cobblers in my life.....
Quote from: arrivaaston on March 01, 2013, 12:50:41 PM
Only thing if nxwm took over, if its anything like the 301/302/529 you'll have about d or 6 buses turn up together!! As for the somerfield road.... Have u never clocked the traffic from the junction by nisa in leamore and the 4 crosses round about! When I used to drive my car down there I always got stuck no matter what the time of the day was
I do. I live by there!
Why don't they turn right at KFC, coming from Bloxwich, along the other Leamore Lane & go into Walsall via Beechdale instead?
(Would also give a route from Somerfield Road area to the retail park at Reedswood. Would certainly assist my old mum, as she has to catch a bus to Walsall then a Beechdale back out, yet we only live 20 minutes walk as the crow flies!)
Quote from: dgss1 on March 01, 2013, 08:35:35 PM
Quote from: bob on March 01, 2013, 01:34:22 PM
Lol so seriously then does anyone think Arriva might be planning to flog their Cannock operation?
ARRIVA (the idots that put on a four carrige train peak time when there max is 11) have made a dog's dinner of cannock and with the figures shown last post there is a 75% chance cannock will be sold, or fall apart by itself.
What figures? Group or Midlands/Cannock ones??
Facts have to be faced - either Arriva monopoly or NXWM monopoly. No point in two bald men fighting over a comb, which is what I liken bus wars to.
sconehead85
Id much rather a Nxwm monopoly to be fair. Their buses arent perfect and yes theyve got sheds as well but the ratio of sheds to decent is lower at most garages. Cannocks is about 75%. One of the route 1 buses was in front of me today with the front door draught excluders literally hanging off, almost to the road!
Quote from: dgss1 on February 28, 2013, 08:02:34 PM
No you don't, you think Cannock could have as much transport routes and competing, but Cannock is a small town of 65,022,with 27.7% of the populationwithout cars which means approximately 16,255 people using buses so with that small figure getting smaller, it's unlikely that Cannock (sadly) won't have a good bus network,but with profits so low chances are Arriva will sell it.
Theese figures
Well heres hoping they flog it :))
Downfall with that is it would make it even longer, itas already 35 mins on the 1 and 45 on the 2/2A without it being longer, would make more sense if nxwm did some alterations to the 70, they could have the 70A serving the Beechdale and Dudley Fields and the 70 could come from Bloxwich down to KFC turn right as u said
Will be interesting to see if & when they do sell it & who to cos they sure dont give s##t about it
Imagine travel express or banga travel taking over..... Now that I would love to see
Quote from: arrivaaston on March 02, 2013, 02:57:49 PM
Downfall with that is it would make it even longer, itas already 35 mins on the 1 and 45 on the 2/2A without it being longer, would make more sense if nxwm did some alterations to the 70, they could have the 70A serving the Beechdale and Dudley Fields and the 70 could come from Bloxwich down to KFC turn right as u said
Thats better, but make it 70a via Kfc instead, as I bet they still would not operate evening & Sunday past Kfc.
Dream on folks. Small operators are going down like flies -its either Arriva, NXWM or Rotala.
I have to remind you again about Premiere in a BIG CITY.
sconehead85
But could Rotala do any better I doubt it they still have Darts for most of the fleet and you hate them Bob not all of them have the newer type cummins engine.
Well if Arriva dont want it itll be nx or rotala then eh...
Went on 2 Diamond Darts yesterday Dave, an old interiored S reg & a refurbed W reg, although they arent my favourite bus the older one had faded seats but werent threadbare like Cannocks and the refurbed had a smart interior. Neither sounded mechanically s#####d or rattled banged and gad screeching brakes like most of Cannocks..
Quote from: bob on March 02, 2013, 07:13:53 PM
Well if Arriva dont want it itll be nx or rotala then eh...
Nx will not be intrested even though they were there in the past and if they were you would not get a daysaver for £3.90 in staffordshire I could not see NX allowing you to pay £3.90 for a full days travel from staffordshire across into warwickshire taking all NXWM and Coventry buses into account the price would go to Arriva rates espically as people pay them prices. They would not cut all the fares to match WM area as you would hope. To quote from a past post NXWM are a business not a charity.
Quote from: bob on March 02, 2013, 07:17:33 PM
Went on 2 Diamond Darts yesterday Dave, an old interiored S reg & a refurbed W reg, although they arent my favourite bus the older one had faded seats but werent threadbare like Cannocks and the refurbed had a smart interior. Neither sounded mechanically s#####d or rattled banged and gad screeching brakes like most of Cannocks..
Trust me Bob worked there you must have been lucky as most are knackered yes internally they are better.
They charge £3.90 now on the X51, and were the only operator on the Entire Walsall corridor previously and always charged the same for a daysaver /travel card
Certainly no worse than Arriva's. Cannock garage has break downs almost every day! 2 wks ago a an MPD had to be towed off the bus stn, at the same time a B10 wouldnt start, an ALX has had to be tow trucked from hednesford today, 2 MPDs were faulty, theres a load of it happening. I know nx buses break down in walsall eg but with nowhere near the regularity of Cannocks fleet. Oh and of course the B10 that caught fire...
Quote from: bob on March 02, 2013, 07:32:01 PM
Certainly no worse than Arriva's. Cannock garage has break downs almost every day! 2 wks ago a an MPD had to be towed off the bus stn, at the same time a B10 wouldnt start, an ALX has had to be tow trucked from hednesford today, 2 MPDs were faulty, theres a load of it happening. I know nx buses break down in walsall eg but with nowhere near the regularity of Cannocks fleet. Oh and of course the B10 that caught fire...
Cannock runs too many routes and has too many buses to maintain including Staffords being just an outstation how are the fitters supposed to cope. Yes Stafford has pits but not much is done there.