Sucess of Arriva in the West Midlands?

[Discodave]

Reading a quote in the new buses mag about the Midland takeover which states from John Barlow (finance director arriva) "Midland has an exellent standing and reputation" will that last they have failed in the past with Chase and do Arriva really want to buy up other West Mids companies to expand.  One reason I think Chase failed was they tried to run it all from head office like all other depots and they had no clue and NXWM destroyed them.  I hope sucess for Arriva but I have doubts. What do others think?

[andy]

Reading a quote in the new buses mag about the Midland takeover which states from John Barlow (finance director arriva) "Midland has an exellent standing and reputation" will that last they have failed in the past with Chase and do Arriva really want to buy up other West Mids companies to expand.  One reason I think Chase failed was they tried to run it all from head office like all other depots and they had no clue and NXWM destroyed them.  I hope sucess for Arriva but I have doubts. What do others think?

I think this is a different situation to Chase. I think they got Chase on the cheap for 2 reasons...Chase were eager to sell as I don't think they were making much money and were at a point where they had a potential 100% fleet replacement to deal with, and also Arriva were desperate for the Walsall corridor exclusivity, which they achieved. The rest of the operation was a take or leave to them I think, although they certainly could and should have done a better job. I think NXWM had them over a barrell though in that they were prepared to leave Cannock on the proviso that Arriva ditched the majority of its ex Chase services within the West Mids barring the 560. Ironically it was Midland who benefitted but NXWM have no such bargaining tool this time.

Midland is being acquired at a time when they are following a very different strategy, and there is no obvious competition related benefit in acquiring them in terms of home soil. Also I would think they have paid a much more realistic price. I can't see them making the same mistakes as they did at Chase although I think they have their work cut out as the recent tender round demonstrated. I do however think they are extremely serious about this expansion and won't be going away.

Fleet investment will be the big indication as the Midland fleet and much of the Cannock and Stafford fleets don't have much left to offer. If we see wholescale fleet replacement then I think we will be able to judge this development in a very different light.

[Bob]

Nxwm were prepared to pull out of Cannock if Arriva ditched Chase routes? that isnt true Nxwm only operated one main service to Walsall, the 351 which ran a completely different route to the 1, nx ditched it cos it ran at a loss

[andy]

Nxwm were prepared to pull out of Cannock if Arriva ditched Chase routes? that isnt true Nxwm only operated one main service to Walsall, the 351 which ran a completely different route to the 1, nx ditched it cos it ran at a loss

I did say 'I think'.......obviously neither company would ever admit to it if they did, but that doesn't mean these things don't happen.

[Bob]

im hoping NXWM come back into Cannock at some point, theyd wipe the floor with Arriva! It wont happen though unfortunately

[PM]

With Cannock, nxwm could decide to swamp cannock or somewhere in arriva's territory perhaps as a message-u are not welcome in the west midlands!! Dont forget, thats what NXWM did with stevensons although I know this is unlikely

[Tony]

Reading a quote in the new buses mag about the Midland takeover which states from John Barlow (finance director arriva) "Midland has an exellent standing and reputation" will that last they have failed in the past with Chase and do Arriva really want to buy up other West Mids companies to expand.  One reason I think Chase failed was they tried to run it all from head office like all other depots and they had no clue and NXWM destroyed them.  I hope sucess for Arriva but I have doubts. What do others think?

That statement show some poor logic from Arriva.
"Midland has an exellent standing and reputation"

So what are Arriva going to do? - completely delete the Midland name from day one, so the "excellent reputation" company will just disappear and a new company most passengers don't know will appear in their place.

[Bob]

With Cannock, nxwm could decide to swamp cannock or somewhere in arriva's territory perhaps as a message-u are not welcome in the west midlands!! Dont forget, thats what NXWM did with stevensons although I know this is unlikely

itll never happen NXWM have absolutely zilch interest in Cannock, i wouldnt imagine it being a very profitable area for even Arriva these days. Pity tho, if nxwm competed on the number 1 theyd win hands down

[j789]

It is a shame nxwm and other operators don't join together sometimes to jointly run routes. I would think a cannock route could be done with Arriva, and in other areas too.  I think nxwm and First could work together on a Bromsgrove corridor too and possibly with Stagecoach in Coventry to Leamington.

[andy]

With Cannock, nxwm could decide to swamp cannock or somewhere in arriva's territory perhaps as a message-u are not welcome in the west midlands!! Dont forget, thats what NXWM did with stevensons although I know this is unlikely

As I've said elsewhere, I doubt NXWM are too concerned about this. There is more than enough to go round in the West Mids these days and I would imagine they are baffled as to how nobody's wanted a share up until now. Even so, it will be a very minor share when you look at the scale of NX's network. No other conurbation the size of West Midlands in the UK only has one of the large groups as a predominant operator.

The days of setting up tit for tat operations like the Burton and Derby scenarios are I believe long gone. The costs sre simply too high and can't be warranted anymore. Look for instance at how long it takes and how much it costs to employ a few drivers these days? That's before you start looking at vehicles and premises and / or dead mileage.

Large operators are better off investing resource into their key corridors and networks to make sure there is little room for a serious competitor and NXWM have managed that up until now.

[4006]

It has to be said although I am no expert on anything to do with routes/tenders/operations e.t.c surely if Midland had anything reasonable to offer, NX would have bought it not Arriva and offered more money!? I persume therefore NX do not see this as any threat. I would therefore also question that Midland buy several new buses spray them up give a good image and then sell up within months later?? Arriva's recent takeover of Wolves routes do not seam to have picked up either, often buses are emply or have just a few passengers on as with many midland routes, they do not seam to be that much 'In demand'
My opinion....passengers will sufer in the end (well a few anyways)

[winston]

It has to be said although I am no expert on anything to do with routes/tenders/operations e.t.c surely if Midland had anything reasonable to offer, NX would have bought it not Arriva and offered more money!? I persume therefore NX do not see this as any threat. I would therefore also question that Midland buy several new buses spray them up give a good image and then sell up within months later?? Arriva's recent takeover of Wolves routes do not seam to have picked up either, often buses are emply or have just a few passengers on as with many midland routes, they do not seam to be that much 'In demand'
My opinion....passengers will sufer in the end (well a few anyways)

If NX attempted to buy up any operators in the WM region i.e. Rotala, Midland, Claribels etc, no doubt any moves would be blocked / or referred to the MMC due to NXWM's dominance and already high market share in the region. Therefore I would think that NX hands are tied in terms of making a counter offer for a business Arriva may be targeting. The biggest problem any competitor has operating against NXWM is the size & scale of its network and its own range of travelcards. More passengers buy NXWM travelcards than NWM due to them being more cost effective, any competing operator can only take passengers of NXWM services that pay cash or hold NWM passes

[winston]

With Cannock, nxwm could decide to swamp cannock or somewhere in arriva's territory perhaps as a message-u are not welcome in the west midlands!! Dont forget, thats what NXWM did with stevensons although I know this is unlikely

As I've said elsewhere, I doubt NXWM are too concerned about this. There is more than enough to go round in the West Mids these days and I would imagine they are baffled as to how nobody's wanted a share up until now. Even so, it will be a very minor share when you look at the scale of NX's network. No other conurbation the size of West Midlands in the UK only has one of the large groups as a predominant operator.

The days of setting up tit for tat operations like the Burton and Derby scenarios are I believe long gone. The costs sre simply too high and can't be warranted anymore. Look for instance at how long it takes and how much it costs to employ a few drivers these days? That's before you start looking at vehicles and premises and / or dead mileage.

Large operators are better off investing resource into their key corridors and networks to make sure there is little room for a serious competitor and NXWM have managed that up until now.

If Arriva did get ever NXWM's back up no doubt they would just increase frequencies / offer return fares / introduced special tickets aimed at putting the squeeze on the competing Arriva services.

If it did ever come to an all out war which seems unlikely, NXWM could easily introduce competing services on Cannocks more lucrative routes and operate them out of WA garage without too much dead mileage or possibly even strike in Tamworth operating from PB

[Justin Tyme]

Arriva seem to be concentrating on tendered services in the Centro area - so isn't its main competitor Rotala, not NXWM?

[winston]

Arriva seem to be concentrating on tendered services in the Centro area - so isn't its main competitor Rotala, not NXWM?

At present I'd agree with the above, but I can't help thinking the Centro tendered work will be a stepping stone to grander plans in the future which may well involve in to introducing further commercial services and possibly swallowing up Rotala Plc. After all it was said the Arriva won all the first tranche of tenders at knock down prices over a 5 year term, even Arriva couldn't justify making a loss or only breaking even on the WM tendered operations forever