Local Daysaver

[Kevin]

Very few people make a journey by bus, but do not go back later. The thrufare that was 50p and valid for an hour when it was launched in the west midlands was before day tickets were available

I beg to differ on the "very few" bit to an extent. I've done it myself numerous times & I know a number of people who do similar for an evening out (20ish minute bus into town and use the same single on the app to get a Broad St bus a few stops, then have to get a taxi home because lol no night buses). Obviously it's not going to be loads and loads of people and anecdotes do not make data etc... but there is a genuine use for it and people do use it that way, regardless of how "few" people do it.

Also, obviously this isn't London where such practice is more commonplace because the 1 hour limit is the standard fare for buses full stop.

[Tony]

It is very few out of the million passengers a day, London's day ticket is 4.95 as well which makes the 1.65 hop more attractive for those doing a return journey

[wulfrun]

Where does NX explain in their terms and conditions of travel you can use a Single Ticket on any number of buses within 30 mins of being issued? 
https://nxbus.co.uk/west-midlands/help-information/ticket-terms-conditions

Does this extend to paper tickets too - paid with cash or Swift PAYG?

You simply present the paper ticket, as with mTicket to the driver, where the driver on seeing it is a single ticket, will want to inspect the time of issue on the ticket, where if issued with within 30 mins - the driver will allow you to board the bus?
 

[2206]

Where does NX explain in their terms and conditions of travel you can use a Single Ticket on any number of buses within 30 mins of being issued?
https://nxbus.co.uk/west-midlands/help-information/ticket-terms-conditions

Does this extend to paper tickets too - paid with cash or Swift PAYG?

You simply present the paper ticket, as with mTicket to the driver, where the driver on seeing it is a single ticket, will want to inspect the time of issue on the ticket, where if issued with within 30 mins - the driver will allow you to board the bus?

I've never heard of that. I think a single ticket is valid for a single journey only. 

[wulfrun]

never heard of that. I think a single ticket is valid for a single journey only.

Sorry @2206, I was continuing on from what @Kevin was saying above about singles purchased on mTicket. I too have not heard you can use Singles on more than one journey within 30 mins. Hence I asked the question.

[Tony]

Singles on Mticket have to be done like that because without a time limit they could be used all day

[wulfrun]

Singles on Mticket have to be done like that because without a time limit they could be used all day

So what you are saying Tony is that because mTickets are not issued or identified by the ticket machine, they have to be presented to the driver in the same was as a paper ticket, where a timer is required on the mTicket to provide a "window of opportunity" to give the user time to activate their ticket before boarding the bus, before the ticket auto expires, to prevent reuse.

Therefore enabling customers to abuse this protocol to their advantage, by using the ticket on as many journeys they require within this 30 min "window of opportunity" – which WMT Ltd accepts as valid practice?

A practice that is not permitted if the customer is using other WMT Ltd Single ticket / fare issued – when purchased using a system that works as intended.

It is not the customer's fault that WMT Ltd can't install adequate equipment on their vehicles to validate tickets issued by the company for travel.

Why should customers be penalised for paying by cash / Swift PAYG / Swift Go - because those systems work as intended?

Customers purchasing single fares issued as a paper ticket; should be able to present the same ticket for use on any number of WMT Ltd services within 30 mins of the time stamped on the ticket issued.

With Swift Go, operators can define the rules of travel. Where, unlike mTicket, each time the user taps in with Swift Go, the time, stop, route and vehicle boarded is recorded, leaving a unique anonymous digital tail across the network, that helps transport planners identify common travel patterns to design a bus network that meets customer requirements.

mTickets are incapable of collecting this vital information. Unless WMT Ltd are not informing mTicket users the app is "spyware" using their device's GPS/network IP, to track the user's every movement – perhaps another reason the user is told to keep the device on at all times?

If tapping in using Swift Go on NXWM services, NXWM can set a rule that charges a capped fare of £2.40 for all tap ins within the first 30 mins of use for that day. Thereafter, as done now, the customer is capped at Day Saver rate, capped further at 3 and 5 days if making the same journey for the number of days per week, paid in arrears, every Sunday.

Where as mTicket forces the customer to commit to pay for a ticket in advance, for journeys the user may not even make, or be forced to pay more for an additional ticket, due to an unforeseen need to travel on other days in the week, or beyond the required Low Fare Zone or a need to use another operator.

With Swift Go, because you pay in arrears, your fare is auto upgraded depending on your next move. From £3 to £4 if you tap in outside the initial NXWM Low Fare Zone. If an additional operator is required to the normal operator of choice, no problems, the normal operator's day cap (NXWM LFZ Walsall £3) is auto upgraded to an nBus equivalent (nBus Walsall £3.20) for the day or 3/5 days capped, which ever is the cheapest. Whereas the user is forced to pay an additional fare when using NXWM mTicket app or Diamond mTicket app, as they have already committed to purchasing the wrong ticket, or be charged separate fares for each operator if tapping in with a Bank Card.

To make an assumption that not many people make more than one journey paying an NXWM mTicket Single – can only be deduced by comparing the number of mTicket sales against all ticket sales made on a particular day.

Where at a guess, I assume mTickets are not the bulk purchase, and of those very few buy mTicket Singles. Therefore by law of averages one can claim not many people use mTicket Singles, multiple times, compared to other tickets sold - but as for the exact figure NXWM don't actually know, because that data is not recorded.

Unlike Swift Go, which records the time, stop, route and vehicle boarded, each time the card is tapped in - using an inert plastic card that fits easily into purse/wallet/back pocket, which does not need the user to spend £100+ on an electronic device to install the mTicket app on, which also requires an external power supply to ensure the ticket remains valid, or the user faces a criminal charge for fare evasion. The Swift customer can view their travel log and current fare (to pay from their Swift Account, via a number of payment methods on the coming Sunday) at anytime, when accessing their account online or the TfWM app.

Why does WMT Ltd still encourage customers to use the inferior mTicket app that provides loop holes that customers can exploit to the company's detriment, by offering only the cheapest tickets on the mTicket platform, like a carrot to lure people to download the app (prime use being to harvest customer personal details?), instead of promoting the full gamut of WMT Ltd fares on Swift, a platform that provides greater flexibility for both customer and operator, with no loopholes that customers can exploit, as well as helping planners know how users are accessing the network, the fares being used, and help reduce fare evasion - with a need to validate the Swift card on a pad each time the user boards a bus?

Especially when you consider membership to the WM Bus Alliance includes a promise from the operator to support the Swift platform.

[MW]

Can you buy an nbus ticket onboard a NXWM bus and pay by card? I've been meaning to ask this question.

[Westy]

Can you buy an nbus ticket onboard a NXWM bus and pay by card? I've been meaning to ask this question.

Be surprised if you could!

You don't get a paper ticket, if you pay by contactless, but you do, if you use Swift  Paygo, as I've bought both Nx Daysaver & the Nbus equivalent off Nx.

[2206]

Can you buy an nbus ticket onboard a NXWM bus and pay by card? I've been meaning to ask this question.

No don't think so.
I think the way it works is one scan it charges a single fare, second scan and more it charges capped at £4 all day. And caps it at £11.50 for 3 days and £15 for 7 days. Adult NX day ticket only of course as well.

[andy41]

So what you are saying Tony is that because mTickets are not issued or identified by the ticket machine, they have to be presented to the driver in the same was as a paper ticket, where a timer is required on the mTicket to provide a "window of opportunity" to give the user time to activate their ticket before boarding the bus, before the ticket auto expires, to prevent reuse.

Therefore enabling customers to abuse this protocol to their advantage, by using the ticket on as many journeys they require within this 30 min "window of opportunity" – which WMT Ltd accepts as valid practice?

A practice that is not permitted if the customer is using other WMT Ltd Single ticket / fare issued – when purchased using a system that works as intended.

It is not the customer's fault that WMT Ltd can't install adequate equipment on their vehicles to validate tickets issued by the company for travel.

Why should customers be penalised for paying by cash / Swift PAYG / Swift Go - because those systems work as intended?

Customers purchasing single fares issued as a paper ticket; should be able to present the same ticket for use on any number of WMT Ltd services within 30 mins of the time stamped on the ticket issued.

With Swift Go, operators can define the rules of travel. Where, unlike mTicket, each time the user taps in with Swift Go, the time, stop, route and vehicle boarded is recorded, leaving a unique anonymous digital tail across the network, that helps transport planners identify common travel patterns to design a bus network that meets customer requirements.

mTickets are incapable of collecting this vital information. Unless WMT Ltd are not informing mTicket users the app is "spyware" using their device's GPS/network IP, to track the user's every movement – perhaps another reason the user is told to keep the device on at all times?

If tapping in using Swift Go on NXWM services, NXWM can set a rule that charges a capped fare of £2.40 for all tap ins within the first 30 mins of use for that day. Thereafter, as done now, the customer is capped at Day Saver rate, capped further at 3 and 5 days if making the same journey for the number of days per week, paid in arrears, every Sunday.

Where as mTicket forces the customer to commit to pay for a ticket in advance, for journeys the user may not even make, or be forced to pay more for an additional ticket, due to an unforeseen need to travel on other days in the week, or beyond the required Low Fare Zone or a need to use another operator.

With Swift Go, because you pay in arrears, your fare is auto upgraded depending on your next move. From £3 to £4 if you tap in outside the initial NXWM Low Fare Zone. If an additional operator is required to the normal operator of choice, no problems, the normal operator's day cap (NXWM LFZ Walsall £3) is auto upgraded to an nBus equivalent (nBus Walsall £3.20) for the day or 3/5 days capped, which ever is the cheapest. Whereas the user is forced to pay an additional fare when using NXWM mTicket app or Diamond mTicket app, as they have already committed to purchasing the wrong ticket, or be charged separate fares for each operator if tapping in with a Bank Card.

To make an assumption that not many people make more than one journey paying an NXWM mTicket Single – can only be deduced by comparing the number of mTicket sales against all ticket sales made on a particular day.

Where at a guess, I assume mTickets are not the bulk purchase, and of those very few buy mTicket Singles. Therefore by law of averages one can claim not many people use mTicket Singles, multiple times, compared to other tickets sold - but as for the exact figure NXWM don't actually know, because that data is not recorded.

Unlike Swift Go, which records the time, stop, route and vehicle boarded, each time the card is tapped in - using an inert plastic card that fits easily into purse/wallet/back pocket, which does not need the user to spend £100+ on an electronic device to install the mTicket app on, which also requires an external power supply to ensure the ticket remains valid, or the user faces a criminal charge for fare evasion. The Swift customer can view their travel log and current fare (to pay from their Swift Account, via a number of payment methods on the coming Sunday) at anytime, when accessing their account online or the TfWM app.

Why does WMT Ltd still encourage customers to use the inferior mTicket app that provides loop holes that customers can exploit to the company's detriment, by offering only the cheapest tickets on the mTicket platform, like a carrot to lure people to download the app (prime use being to harvest customer personal details?), instead of promoting the full gamut of WMT Ltd fares on Swift, a platform that provides greater flexibility for both customer and operator, with no loopholes that customers can exploit, as well as helping planners know how users are accessing the network, the fares being used, and help reduce fare evasion - with a need to validate the Swift card on a pad each time the user boards a bus?

Especially when you consider membership to the WM Bus Alliance includes a promise from the operator to support the Swift platform.

You'll never last on here!

[Gareth]

You'll never last on here!

As I strongly suspect it could very well be our old friend from Blackheath, I certainly hope not.

[don]

So what you are saying Tony is that because mTickets are not issued or identified by the ticket machine, they have to be presented to the driver in the same was as a paper ticket, where a timer is required on the mTicket to provide a "window of opportunity" to give the user time to activate their ticket before boarding the bus, before the ticket auto expires, to prevent reuse.

Therefore enabling customers to abuse this protocol to their advantage, by using the ticket on as many journeys they require within this 30 min "window of opportunity".....

No doubt NXWM has done a full risk assessment on this - how far are you going to get in 30 mins in the built up area (eg Wolverhampton), fella?? Presumably they have determined the potential losses through that method are outweighed by the advantages.

[andy41]

As I strongly suspect it could very well be our old friend from Blackheath, I certainly hope not.

He makes some very valid points 

[Stu]

As I strongly suspect it could very well be our old friend from Blackheath, I certainly hope not.

No it is not.