West Midlands Bus Partnership to End

[monkeyjoe]

Name other innovative operators. That's a challenge let's see.
Birmingham coach company, north Birmingham busways, Stevenson's, midland choice, Hansons, serverse Travel, Burman Travel, Frontline Buses, vanguard coaches.

Is that enough for you or do I keep going.

Oh & previous comment yes I did work for Pete's Travel 377X 452 628 & 96A were just a few of my innovations at that firm. Shall I go on.

As simon said every operator at some point gone head to head competing with another. At the time that's what deregulation was about operators competing to bring different benefits fares etc to the travelling public. Would you tell Morrisons they cant sell milk because Asda sell milk.

I was asked & answered as honestly as I can what I believe is the best way to put the entrepreneurial spirit back into the bus network whilst providing a good network that works for both operators and travelling public. This in my opinion is what the national bus strategy is looking to do.

Covid has given this push to provide a better network & there are many challenges yet to come for the bus industry to regain lost patronage, whatever happens it's going to be a very interesting new normal.

Let's not look back now on who did what to who & let's solve these challenges & come up with arrangements that allow ALL operators to survive & grow profitably whist giving passengers a joined up network

Frontline / serverse didn't they all just jump on the bandwagon of operating on the  94, 97, 96 .

I was always curious who promoted tmw to create the 377 extension that saw it go erdington , bromford and c wood.

There was a lot of innovation in the 90s from the independents but not a lot of it has lasted  as a % 30 % of it??.

[j789]

Name other innovative operators. That's a challenge let's see.
Birmingham coach company, north Birmingham busways, Stevenson's, midland choice, Hansons, serverse Travel, Burman Travel, Frontline Buses, vanguard coaches.

Is that enough for you or do I keep going.

Oh & previous comment yes I did work for Pete's Travel 377X 452 628 & 96A were just a few of my innovations at that firm. Shall I go on.

As simon said every operator at some point gone head to head competing with another. At the time that's what deregulation was about operators competing to bring different benefits fares etc to the travelling public. Would you tell Morrisons they cant sell milk because Asda sell milk.

I was asked & answered as honestly as I can what I believe is the best way to put the entrepreneurial spirit back into the bus network whilst providing a good network that works for both operators and travelling public. This in my opinion is what the national bus strategy is looking to do.

Covid has given this push to provide a better network & there are many challenges yet to come for the bus industry to regain lost patronage, whatever happens it's going to be a very interesting new normal.

Let's not look back now on who did what to who & let's solve these challenges & come up with arrangements that allow ALL operators to survive & grow profitably whist giving passengers a joined up network

There it is again, profits profits profits, absolutely nothing to do with improving the passenger experience, just wanting a bigger slice of the network for yourself. What exactly would you do if your company ran more routes? Have crazy frequencies that are non-sensical?

Also, those innovations from the companies you list? The vast majority didn't work out long term? You blame NXWM but maybe it should be put down to bad business management of those companies. Being innovative and being profitable are 2 completely different things, I'd expect someone in the industry to know that and not to take the simplistic stance that the failure of most of those operators was down to NXWM. Your company used to use coaches on bus routes, was that innovation? What about all those clapped out Nationals and Darts used by others, what a great advert for using the bus that gave, I think not! You are deluded if you think that was innovative. One example, Petes on the 22 using city buses against NXWM accessible buses. Which company was offering the best service for passengers, not 'innovative' Petes that is for sure!

You never answered the question of the situation Petes caused in Redditch and the race to the bottom in terms of standards that created. The current poor network in Redditch is a direct result of this and was certainly not innovation or of any benefit to passengers. Why don't clarinets start operating there and offer new services for those passengers. Let me guess why, lack of profits!

All I see is a lack of willingness from certain companies to try new things, just playground whining about it being unfair. It's a competitive marketplace, compete or fail, don't moan about it.

[metrocity]

There it is again, profits profits profits, absolutely nothing to do with improving the passenger experience, just wanting a bigger slice of the network for yourself. What exactly would you do if your company ran more routes? Have crazy frequencies that are non-sensical?

Also, those innovations from the companies you list? The vast majority didn't work out long term? You blame NXWM but maybe it should be put down to bad business management of those companies. Being innovative and being profitable are 2 completely different things, I'd expect someone in the industry to know that and not to take the simplistic stance that the failure of most of those operators was down to NXWM. Your company used to use coaches on bus routes, was that innovation? What about all those clapped out Nationals and Darts used by others, what a great advert for using the bus that gave, I think not! You are deluded if you think that was innovative. One example, Petes on the 22 using city buses against NXWM accessible buses. Which company was offering the best service for passengers, not 'innovative' Petes that is for sure!

You never answered the question of the situation Petes caused in Redditch and the race to the bottom in terms of standards that created. The current poor network in Redditch is a direct result of this and was certainly not innovation or of any benefit to passengers. Why don't clarinets start operating there and offer new services for those passengers. Let me guess why, lack of profits!

All I see is a lack of willingness from certain companies to try new things, just playground whining about it being unfair. It's a competitive marketplace, compete or fail, don't moan about it.

Perhaps you could show all the other operators what they have been missing and what innovation really is?

https://www.gov.uk/apply-vehicle-operator-licence

[j789]

Perhaps you could show all the other operators what they have been missing and what innovation really is?

https://www.gov.uk/apply-vehicle-operator-licence

Daft argument, it's not me banging on about how innovative small operators have been in the West Midlands since 1986. Perhaps you should read the earlier posts properly. I am questioning what exactly this so called innovation was (and still am unsure as the evidence provided so far isn't exactly strong), nowhere am I saying I could do a better job! Just questioning comments made by others about NXWM.

[Simon Dunn]

There it is again, profits profits profits, absolutely nothing to do with improving the passenger experience, just wanting a bigger slice of the network for yourself. What exactly would you do if your company ran more routes? Have crazy frequencies that are non-sensical?

Also, those innovations from the companies you list? The vast majority didn't work out long term? You blame NXWM but maybe it should be put down to bad business management of those companies. Being innovative and being profitable are 2 completely different things, I'd expect someone in the industry to know that and not to take the simplistic stance that the failure of most of those operators was down to NXWM. Your company used to use coaches on bus routes, was that innovation? What about all those clapped out Nationals and Darts used by others, what a great advert for using the bus that gave, I think not! You are deluded if you think that was innovative. One example, Petes on the 22 using city buses against NXWM accessible buses. Which company was offering the best service for passengers, not 'innovative' Petes that is for sure!

You never answered the question of the situation Petes caused in Redditch and the race to the bottom in terms of standards that created. The current poor network in Redditch is a direct result of this and was certainly not innovation or of any benefit to passengers. Why don't clarinets start operating there and offer new services for those passengers. Let me guess why, lack of profits!

All I see is a lack of willingness from certain companies to try new things, just playground whining about it being unfair. It's a competitive marketplace, compete or fail, don't moan about it.

There is nothing wrong with standards of bus services in Redditch.  The network is a reflection of usage and demand.  The fares are within the lowest in the country if not the lowest. 

[Steveminor]

Been there twice mate & got bought out twice, young family now so the position I'm in suits the life I need. Maybe you should have a go?

Serverse was inventive the longstanding 96 to Tamworth through villages that today see hardly any buses serverse ran through those hourly or the 70 which today forms the basis of the 75.
Those operators aren't about now well some  were through the owners having serious health conditions or those guys are no longer with us & some are gone through operator buy outs.
Routes change as the market is ever changing but a lot of those routes or the basis of them still exists today.

When it comes to Redditch the best thing that happened was First pulling out as there is much more investment now than there had been from First towards the end

[metrocity]

Daft argument, it's not me banging on about how innovative small operators have been in the West Midlands since 1986. Perhaps you should read the earlier posts properly. I am questioning what exactly this so called innovation was (and still am unsure as the evidence provided so far isn't exactly strong), nowhere am I saying I could do a better job! Just questioning comments made by others about NXWM.

You don't seem willing to allow others to have a view unless it matches your narrative

People who express themselves in the manner you have simply illustrate an ignorance that theirs is the only relevant view

[j789]

You don't seem willing to allow others to have a view unless it matches your narrative

People who express themselves in the manner you have simply illustrate an ignorance that theirs is the only relevant view

No that is not true at all. I have replied to comments made by others protesting that the current transport system is broken in the West Midlands, just because there is a dominant operator. I have merely argued this is not the case at all and West Midlands passengers have it very good compare to neighbouring counties. Perhaps you don't agree. However, saying I'm ignorant to their views is daft in the extreme, I am just highlighting the other side of the argument. Those two advocating changes are doing so as it would clearly benefit their companies and future profits. Please tell me I'm wrong if this is not the case?

[Steveminor]

Where exactly do you think the money to invest in new vehicles comes from if not from profits????

[j789]

Been there twice mate & got bought out twice, young family now so the position I'm in suits the life I need. Maybe you should have a go?

Serverse was inventive the longstanding 96 to Tamworth through villages that today see hardly any buses serverse ran through those hourly or the 70 which today forms the basis of the 75.
Those operators aren't about now well some  were through the owners having serious health conditions or those guys are no longer with us & some are gone through operator buy outs.
Routes change as the market is ever changing but a lot of those routes or the basis of them still exists today.

When it comes to Redditch the best thing that happened was First pulling out as there is much more investment now than there had been from First towards the end

Steve before commenting on Redditch, please look at the historical picture and the Redditch network in the 1990s and early 2000s. It was a far stronger network then, even in the early days of first ownership. I know because I have worked in this area for a long period of time. As for no investment, the reason is as I stated, the competition caused a race to the bottom in standards so first we're never going to invest there. You honestly think Diamond would have invested to the same degree if First were still there, of course not. Your old company did create that situation through competition. First certainly didn't help matters by failing to really fight back but don't be so naive to think Redditch is better now than 15 or 20 years ago. It really isn't. The 146 used to be half hourly during First operation, now it's scrapped. What services there have actually improved frequency since those days?

Likewise, in response to Simon, the reason for the low fares are a direct result of competition with first, I remember the £1 day tickets etc. You surely can't be saying that this is an ideal situation for your company as I'm sure you'd prefer higher fares but years of competition have created this situation. The whole of Worcestershire is poorer than previously in all areas. I'm not saying Diamond are to blame for this directly as they are not but equally no one can say the current Worcestershire network from all operators is anywhere near as good as it was in the past.

[j789]

Where exactly do you think the money to invest in new vehicles comes from if not from profits????

Yes and this is why NXWM have invested so much in their fleet yet you are complaining that the system is broken and they are the bad guys. I really don't get it!?!

[Steveminor]

The way in which operators are reimbursed for the passengers they carry is what needs to change & a method that allows any operator the ability to be innovative with routing without the dominant operators pass being a barrier.
A system that allows passengers to use any bus without financial impact to the passenger or operator.
It's not just in the West Midlands its across the country hence why we have a "National Bus Strategy"

[Simon Dunn]

Steve before commenting on Redditch, please look at the historical picture and the Redditch network in the 1990s and early 2000s. It was a far stronger network then, even in the early days of first ownership. I know because I have worked in this area for a long period of time. As for no investment, the reason is as I stated, the competition caused a race to the bottom in standards so first we're never going to invest there. You honestly think Diamond would have invested to the same degree if First were still there, of course not. Your old company did create that situation through competition. First certainly didn't help matters by failing to really fight back but don't be so naive to think Redditch is better now than 15 or 20 years ago. It really isn't. The 146 used to be half hourly during First operation, now it's scrapped. What services there have actually improved frequency since those days?

Likewise, in response to Simon, the reason for the low fares are a direct result of competition with first, I remember the £1 day tickets etc. You surely can't be saying that this is an ideal situation for your company as I'm sure you'd prefer higher fares but years of competition have created this situation. The whole of Worcestershire is poorer than previously in all areas. I'm not saying Diamond are to blame for this directly as they are not but equally no one can say the current Worcestershire network from all operators is anywhere near as good as it was in the past.

Overall bus usage over a long period of time has reduced.  The number of vehicles operated by all operators have reduced.  This is due to many factors, but in essence there has been massive passenger decline.  There is not one reason why.   In this decline some operations have been able to thin out the networks better than others.  If buses are every 3 minutes to reduce to every 5,7,10 is less obvious. 

The problem with the 146 is that it operates over a long distance, parallel to a train service which is cheaper, and quicker.  A bus service will always struggle to exist alongside this. 



Simon

[the trainbasher]

Part of the problem thats caused the decline in revenue, and subsequently route mileage, is ENCTS. ENCTS needs to be reformed or replaced, but any government that will do that will lose the election.

Ideally it should have been made so if you were a resident of say Worcs, the only free travel you got was Worcs, Warks, WM, Staffs, Shropshire and Herefordshire. Not every English County and its dog. That and fairer payments to operators.

The other problem is the Daysaver/Faresaver. But that harks back to DReg, ideally WMT should not have been allowed to keep the Faresaver as their own product and instead the PTE should have kept it as the multi op bus ticket (that and WMT should have been split GM style).

[j789]

Overall bus usage over a long period of time has reduced.  The number of vehicles operated by all operators have reduced.  This is due to many factors, but in essence there has been massive passenger decline.  There is not one reason why.   In this decline some operations have been able to thin out the networks better than others.  If buses are every 3 minutes to reduce to every 5,7,10 is less obvious. 

The problem with the 146 is that it operates over a long distance, parallel to a train service which is cheaper, and quicker.  A bus service will always struggle to exist alongside this. 



Simon

I agree with the statement about passenger decline in Worcestershire. All areas have suffered there but no company has really tried to fight back against this trend. I would argue that there should be far more willingness from Worcestershire operators to form similar partnerships to spread cost there, but this is off topic to this specific thread. Even worse with a car friendly council.

However, this highlights how superior the West Midlands is and how much better for passengers in the vast majority of areas there. We really don't know how lucky we are to have the network coverage we do have. I'm pretty sure anyone living in Worcestershire, Staffordshire and Shropshire would think this too.