It's that time of year again......

[2900]

Ah the annual fare rise its a given you know it's gona happen so why bother , express and star banner headlines its a lazy article to fill a few columns they can't even be bothered to put in a relevant up to date picture. From my point of view I do see fair number passengers who over pay £2.20-£2.50 for £2.10 tickets, £5 notes £4 daysavers or £10 for £8 family savers these people seem more than happy to pay it ,compared to taxi fares its peanuts. I,ve seen people pay £2 and travel one stop insane. May be if all the fare Dodgers over riders were dealt with the annual rise could come down or be frozen.

[winston]

"Bulk of the fleet will have a two tone maroon livery' great! I personally think it looks terrible, too red, and too London, and presume no Tridents will be painted and anything older meaning two liveries on the streets again, what a month after it will be eliminated? Maybe not if 1688 keeps going

1688 was the trainer that self combusted, I assume you mean 1668.

[Tony]

I do think a 5% rise is too high, as most passengers will not have received a similar rise in income over the past year. In addition to that, a fleet renewal programme should be part of the company budget, without over inflation increases to pay for it.

Finally, somebody in this place that gets it! Fleet renewal should not be connected to revenue, it should (and always did) have a completely seperate budget source. Revenue streams support operating cost variables such as fuel, wages, insurance etc.....NOT infrastructure and rolling stock. Bus companies have become far too good at passing excessive fares rises off as a route to fleet renewal, when fleet renewal is a basic and given programme that should have nothing to do with revenue atall.

If a company can't operate profitably and renew its assets at the same time (and that applies to any line of business), it needs to look at its operating model, not its fare structure.

If fleet replacement doesn't come from Revenue Stream where does it come from? The money to buy new buses has to come from the same pot as everything else!

Investment. From shareholders and if necessary borrowing. Speculating to accumulate. Making your fleet pay for itself by making efficiencies on supply, maintenance etc. And we all know that this is what actually happens. No bus company in the country actually needs to wait until it increases fares to order new buses! So why do they continually insult our intelligence when it comes to fares rise time by wheeling the 'new buses' argument out? They should be honest and say that the increase is to cover operating costs and maintain profits. Because that's what it's for and everybody knows it. No company in the world just has a 'pot' with one budget for everything, so they shouldn't try to pretend to people that this is how they work.

Incidentally I am not only talking about NX here.

Tell me one company in any business whatsoever that does normal asset renewal by asking shareholders for more money?

I am sorry Andy, I normally like & respect your posts, but this one is nonsense. All companies have an expected income from selling their products or services, and an expected outgoings on all operating costs which includes asset renewal.

I do agree with you that new buses isn't an excuse for fare increases, but if the price of the things you buy in to run your business rise, then you have two choices. Increase your prices, although there is a limit to this where if prices go up to much you sell fewer and actually get less income, or you cut costs, the two main costs that normally get cut are human resources (not one anyone likes happening - lower wages or less staff) or delayed asset renewal, so we're back at the new buses arguement again!

[andy]

I do think a 5% rise is too high, as most passengers will not have received a similar rise in income over the past year. In addition to that, a fleet renewal programme should be part of the company budget, without over inflation increases to pay for it.

Finally, somebody in this place that gets it! Fleet renewal should not be connected to revenue, it should (and always did) have a completely seperate budget source. Revenue streams support operating cost variables such as fuel, wages, insurance etc.....NOT infrastructure and rolling stock. Bus companies have become far too good at passing excessive fares rises off as a route to fleet renewal, when fleet renewal is a basic and given programme that should have nothing to do with revenue atall.

If a company can't operate profitably and renew its assets at the same time (and that applies to any line of business), it needs to look at its operating model, not its fare structure.

If fleet replacement doesn't come from Revenue Stream where does it come from? The money to buy new buses has to come from the same pot as everything else!

Investment. From shareholders and if necessary borrowing. Speculating to accumulate. Making your fleet pay for itself by making efficiencies on supply, maintenance etc. And we all know that this is what actually happens. No bus company in the country actually needs to wait until it increases fares to order new buses! So why do they continually insult our intelligence when it comes to fares rise time by wheeling the 'new buses' argument out? They should be honest and say that the increase is to cover operating costs and maintain profits. Because that's what it's for and everybody knows it. No company in the world just has a 'pot' with one budget for everything, so they shouldn't try to pretend to people that this is how they work.

Incidentally I am not only talking about NX here.

Tell me one company in any business whatsoever that does normal asset renewal by asking shareholders for more money?

I am sorry Andy, I normally like & respect your posts, but this one is nonsense. All companies have an expected income from selling their products or services, and an expected outgoings on all operating costs which includes asset renewal.

I do agree with you that new buses isn't an excuse for fare increases, but if the price of the things you buy in to run your business rise, then you have two choices. Increase your prices, although there is a limit to this where if prices go up to much you sell fewer and actually get less income, or you cut costs, the two main costs that normally get cut are human resources (not one anyone likes happening - lower wages or less staff) or delayed asset renewal, so we're back at the new buses arguement again!

What I actually meant was raising money from the markets, not asking shareholders.

I think you actually know what I'm really on about Tony. Asset renewal is a something companies should have well advanced budgetary plans for. The asset renewal budget operates over a much longer period than the revenue and income budgeting, which in many cases is done over no more than a year as it is not an exact science and there are so many unpredictable variables such as weather, recession, competition, lost contracts etc...

That is why the two areas are difficult to connect directly. And that is why in my opinion companies PR machines shouldn't treat us as idiots by simplifying it that way in their spin.

If you remember that I'm not specifically knocking NX here then you might be able see what I'm on about. Indeed Arriva are one of the worst offenders, as I have said in other posts before.

[andy]

Ah the annual fare rise its a given you know it's gona happen so why bother , express and star banner headlines its a lazy article to fill a few columns they can't even be bothered to put in a relevant up to date picture. From my point of view I do see fair number passengers who over pay £2.20-£2.50 for £2.10 tickets, £5 notes £4 daysavers or £10 for £8 family savers these people seem more than happy to pay it ,compared to taxi fares its peanuts. I,ve seen people pay £2 and travel one stop insane. May be if all the fare Dodgers over riders were dealt with the annual rise could come down or be frozen.

It's a lovely sentiment. But unfortuantely bus and train operators find it far easier and cheaper to extract more money from the willing payers than to go after the ones who don't. It's that simple.

[Bryan]

Ah the annual fare rise its a given you know it's gona happen so why bother , express and star banner headlines its a lazy article to fill a few columns they can't even be bothered to put in a relevant up to date picture. From my point of view I do see fair number passengers who over pay £2.20-£2.50 for £2.10 tickets, £5 notes £4 daysavers or £10 for £8 family savers these people seem more than happy to pay it ,compared to taxi fares its peanuts. I,ve seen people pay £2 and travel one stop insane. May be if all the fare Dodgers over riders were dealt with the annual rise could come down or be frozen.

I would doubt that any passengers are happy to pay more, it's just that they don't have the correct change, but are law abiding citizens who pay for their journey. The fact they end up having to pay more than required to travel is, in my opinion, a sad reflection of NXWM's policy of no change given, which does not encourage passengers.

[j789]

Ah the annual fare rise its a given you know it's gona happen so why bother , express and star banner headlines its a lazy article to fill a few columns they can't even be bothered to put in a relevant up to date picture. From my point of view I do see fair number passengers who over pay £2.20-£2.50 for £2.10 tickets, £5 notes £4 daysavers or £10 for £8 family savers these people seem more than happy to pay it ,compared to taxi fares its peanuts. I,ve seen people pay £2 and travel one stop insane. May be if all the fare Dodgers over riders were dealt with the annual rise could come down or be frozen.

I would doubt that any passengers are happy to pay more, it's just that they don't have the correct change, but are law abiding citizens who pay for their journey. The fact they end up having to pay more than required to travel is, in my opinion, a sad reflection of NXWM's policy of no change given, which does not encourage passengers.

I have to disagree with the point about 'no change given'. As a driver in Worcester where we do give out change, I wish we had the no change policy as it would mean no handling of cash and aggro from passengers who think you are trying to swindle them when they try to pay with a £20 note in the morning for a £2.20 fare, and you have no change. It is much simpler to put the money in a shute and take the responsibility away from the driver.

I do think NXWM would benefit from investing in cash box technology that when money was placed in the fare box, it would be automatically counted and let the driver know how much was paid. This could be coupled with software that prevented production of a ticket until the full amount was paid. This would reduce people putting in loads of pennies and not paying the correct fare. Maybe this would be too expensive but I would think with today's technology it wouldn't be that difficult to sort out.

[2900]

Well I do say to customers I can't give change in most cases the response I get no problem driver keep it, I wish I could it would be a  nice bonus. As for exact fare policy this was in force well before NX took over, it's probably been in force for well over 30 years. Giving change out would be nite mare considering the  loading on the main roads imagine the delays to service. The other problem driver safety just imagine all that cash in the cab there would be daily robberies. No thanks to giving change, I like the rule as driver for West Midlands you don't handle the cash, except finding loose change on walk round checks which I place straight in the schute.

[Tony]

Well I do say to customers I can't give change in most cases the response I get no problem driver keep it, I wish I could it would be a  nice bonus. As for exact fare policy this was in force well before NX took over, it's probably been in force for well over 30 years. Giving change out would be nite mare considering the  loading on the main roads imagine the delays to service. The other problem driver safety just imagine all that cash in the cab there would be daily robberies. No thanks to giving change, I like the rule as driver for West Midlands you don't handle the cash, except finding loose change on walk round checks which I place straight in the schute.

The first cash vaults were fitted in the 1960s, so coming up to 50 years

[j789]

Well I do say to customers I can't give change in most cases the response I get no problem driver keep it, I wish I could it would be a  nice bonus. As for exact fare policy this was in force well before NX took over, it's probably been in force for well over 30 years. Giving change out would be nite mare considering the  loading on the main roads imagine the delays to service. The other problem driver safety just imagine all that cash in the cab there would be daily robberies. No thanks to giving change, I like the rule as driver for West Midlands you don't handle the cash, except finding loose change on walk round checks which I place straight in the schute.

The first cash vaults were fitted in the 1960s, so coming up to 50 years

Are the vaults used on today's buses recycled from withdrawn buses as in old photos the coin shuts look the same as today? Any idea how old these are?

[2900]

Crickey I had no idea cash vaults date back to the 60s, as a school kid in the 80s is when I became aware of exact fares. My dad used to drive for Midland red in 80s based at digbeth he used to have to carry the money bag about with him while taking breaks cause he was responsible for cash, imagine the weight of those coins. Not good imO

[2900]

Cash vaults are recycled from old buses but they reconditioned before fitting to new vehicles they look odd sometimes.

[Tony]

Crickey I had no idea cash vaults date back to the 60s, as a school kid in the 80s is when I became aware of exact fares. My dad used to drive for Midland red in 80s based at digbeth he used to have to carry the money bag about with him while taking breaks cause he was responsible for cash, imagine the weight of those coins. Not good imO

It isn't quite that bad for drivers who give change because they get given more notes and can get rid of a lot of their coins.

My dad also used to drive at Sutton Coldfield garage in Midland Red/WMPTE days when they gave change, I remember one stor he told me of a bloke who would get on an early bus with a £20 note every day hoping the driver wouldn't have built up enough change, so would be offered a free ride.  He kept £20 of 10ps with him two days running, when bloke gets on and offers £20 response from my dad was "I have just picked up my £20 float" open the back of 10p take the note off him, take the fare out the bag of 10ps and hand him the bag containing 197 10 pence pieces. After two days he never got on offering a note again!

[PM]

Crickey I had no idea cash vaults date back to the 60s, as a school kid in the 80s is when I became aware of exact fares. My dad used to drive for Midland red in 80s based at digbeth he used to have to carry the money bag about with him while taking breaks cause he was responsible for cash, imagine the weight of those coins. Not good imO

It isn't quite that bad for drivers who give change because they get given more notes and can get rid of a lot of their coins.

My dad also used to drive at Sutton Coldfield garage in Midland Red/WMPTE days when they gave change, I remember one stor he told me of a bloke who would get on an early bus with a £20 note every day hoping the driver wouldn't have built up enough change, so would be offered a free ride.  He kept £20 of 10ps with him two days running, when bloke gets on and offers £20 response from my dad was "I have just picked up my £20 float" open the back of 10p take the note off him, take the fare out the bag of 10ps and hand him the bag containing 197 10 pence pieces. After two days he never got on offering a note again!

Haha :P I certainly am a fan of exact fare on busy city services to speed up loading. Arriva North East give change and it's noticeable how much slower city journeys are up here than in the WM. Change vouchers were introduced by Preston Bus to give the best of both worlds, exchanged at bus station-change given in effect but still the security and safety of not touching the cash/not having to cash in/wander round with a cashbag.

[2900]

Tony, that's brilliant your dad handing over 197 10  pence pieces, that made me chuckle.