Hagley Road First Sprint Network.

[dayvid]

NXWM are far from perfect but compared to the other companies in the region are much better.

Erm.....why?

And is that a good reason to create a permanent monopoly? And exclude new entrants?

I would suggest that the relationship between Centro and NX has only lasted so long due to Centro being one of the least progressive and most stagnant PTE's in the country with low standards and aspirations.

Andy i fully agree with you buddy. when compared to Tfgm (Up in Manchester). Easy comparison is the Tram routes Metrolink vs Midland metro.

[winston]

NXWM are far from perfect but compared to the other companies in the region are much better.

Erm.....why?

And is that a good reason to create a permanent monopoly? And exclude new entrants?

I would suggest that the relationship between Centro and NX has only lasted so long due to Centro being one of the least progressive and most stagnant PTE's in the country with low standards and aspirations.

Andy i fully agree with you buddy. when compared to Tfgm (Up in Manchester). Easy comparison is the Tram routes Metrolink vs Midland metro.

Despite Birmingham being the 'second city' Manchester gets far more government funding for transport related projects than the West Midlands. You've only got to look at the number of Hybrids that have been funded by various Green Bus Funds in Manchester compared with the West Midlands. TfGM are even now using brand new Hybrid Versa's on school routes which is a complete waste, as they'll spend most of their day/lives parked up in the depot.

[Stu]

Birmingham Central would seem the most logical to house Sprint bendi's with it's large open plan parking areas. I'm still not convinced that NX wont operate Sprint, it would be daft to have a different operator running Sprint when NX run the Metro & the three quarters of all the buses in the region. Sprint needs to compliment existing Hagley Rd services by attracting new passengers, not by simply taking them off the buses & the frequency of those is cut.

I disagree slightly with you there; I watched an interesting video about BRT in Bogota, Columbia (which they've had for about 10 years now!) a while back; their system has 'regular' buses acting as shuttles which 'feed' the BRT routes, ie you get a bus to the BRT interchange and then change onto the BRT bus to your destination. The BRT buses are very frequent, so are 'turn-up-and-go'.

So for Sprint to actually be successful here, it would need to mostly replace the current Hagley Road services, and be easy enough for bus passengers to transfer from connecting bus services. For example say, the current 9 service would operate frequently as it does now between Stourbridge and Quinton, with maybe infrequent journeys continuing to the City Centre, but the majority of passengers would be transferring to/from the Sprint service. Likewise for a service such as the 120, which would operate between Dudley and Bearwood only as a 'feeder service', where passengers can transfer to/from the Sprint service at Bearwood.

The positives from this to be gained are that these 'local' services can be more reliable, as they no longer have to travel in and out of the city centre, as the Sprint BRT buses will handle this part of the journey. But it will all hinge on accessibility and integration, the main one being able to use bus passes and day tickets, so as not to increase the cost of using the new network. Otherwise, it will just end up as a novelty white elephant, that hardly anyone will use.

Thanks for that Stu, for that to work as you have seen in Bogota, Columbia, NXWM would need to be awarded the rights to operate Sprint as per the Metro and NXWM's network needs to be integrated to providing feeder services to Sprint as you suggest. Centro do not have the right legally for Sprint to take over the Quinton - B'ham section of the Hagley Road corridor and tell NXWM to alter it's service without  NXWM being involved in the project. Otherwise when Sprint is launched, the way you see if working from previous models NXWM are going to potentially loose a large chunk of revenue from the lucrative Hagley Road services, Pensnett Garage would find itself with approx 15-20 buses redundant along with all the drivers and a massive drop in garage Pvr NX pass holders would be barred from using Sprint and no doubt NX pass holders would be barred from using Sprint. All of which I can't see happening as Sprint would be another White Elephant  Back when the Metro was launched the Timesaver 979 was scrapped & the 79 cut short to WB, however the Soho Rd services are busier than ever with the Metro running a parallel, this is despite NX operating both.

I know some say NX have a monopoly on routes & with their travelcard in the West Midlands, and that another bus group should operate Sprint. But I don't think that there is anyone that can argue that NX isn't invested heavily over the past 3 years in the West Midlands with new buses & refurbishing it's existing fleet and is continuing to do so with the ADL 5 year deal. Once the next 175 new buses join during 2015, the oldest buses in the fleet will be the Y-reg Tridents 4125 onwards which will be 14 years old, I expect most if not all of the Presidents will have left the fleet once that lot arrive. Ultimately NXWM's travelcard is so popular because if significantly cheaper than anything NWM can offer and covers most routes/areas anyway. As long as Centro keep NX on their toes with the Quality Partnerships & threat of bring other operators in, I think Sprint should be integrated in to NXWM bus network & with The Metro even if NX only run Sprint on an management contract with Centro/NWM setting the pricing structyure etc

Dare I say that Sprint will only be successful if SWIFT is fully rolled out and operational for ALL forms of public transport in the West Midlands (bus, rail, tram) in much the same way as Oyster is in London?

That's true multi-modal integrated transport. I can arrive anywhere in London, and travel around by bus, train or Tube, just by touching my Oyster card on the readers. All I have to worry about is having either an appropriate season ticket loaded, or enough credit!

My vision of the future, is of very few regular buses in the city centre, but people using Sprint or Metro, both of which ferry people in and out of the city centre. There would need to be Sprint or Metro lines along key routes, north, west, south and east, linking to interchanges around the outskirts of the city centre, where people then change onto local bus services if required, to continue their onward journeys. And interchanges further out, linking to local services in outlying areas.

As an example in theory, say I'm travelling from home in Acocks Green to my parents house near Oldbury. I'd get my 'local bus' the 37, to a BRT interchange on the Stratford Road in Sparkbrook, where I'd get on a Sprint bus into the city centre terminus, change onto another Sprint bus going along the Hagley Road out to a BRT interchange at Bearwood, and then join the 'local' 120 bus to get to my parents. All the time, I'm not having to buy tickets, I just touch a SWIFT card on the readers. And the Sprint buses are running every five minutes or so, offering a real 'turn-up-and-go' service, and shouldn't have any major capacity issues.

It's just a theory, and there would need to be massive infrastructure changes to support this theory, but I just wanted to share an example of how I feel Sprint/BRT needs to work in order to be successful. Otherwise it will really just be 'the bus that thinks its a tram' and only used by people who can afford to do so.

[Ally]

Is this whole Sprint thing definitely going to happen this time round? Like the Coventry & Warwickshire one that was all fully constructed with services starting 2 years ago - oh, wait, none of that actually happened, sorry!

Don't get me wrong, I personally agree with the whole thing and would love it to happen, but it's not just going to be one of those things they get everyone hyped up about only to never hear a thing about it ever again, as per the above Sprint flop.

Not sure on those worm buses either, look what happened with London and their artics, I can see it being round 2 here with those, people demanding they get rid of them and when that time finally comes, they have to be scrapped because nobody else wants them.

I can't remember all the exact plans for these Sprint corridors now but would it eventually connect all the Midlands Towns/Cities with Birmingham? I would think that that would be a good idea to do, if they haven't thought of it already.

Fingers crossed they do actually bother with it this time round!

[winston]

Dare I say that Sprint will only be successful if SWIFT is fully rolled out and operational for ALL forms of public transport in the West Midlands (bus, rail, tram) in much the same way as Oyster is in London?

That's true multi-modal integrated transport. I can arrive anywhere in London, and travel around by bus, train or Tube, just by touching my Oyster card on the readers. All I have to worry about is having either an appropriate season ticket loaded, or enough credit!

My vision of the future, is of very few regular buses in the city centre, but people using Sprint or Metro, both of which ferry people in and out of the city centre. There would need to be Sprint or Metro lines along key routes, north, west, south and east, linking to interchanges around the outskirts of the city centre, where people then change onto local bus services if required, to continue their onward journeys. And interchanges further out, linking to local services in outlying areas.

As an example in theory, say I'm travelling from home in Acocks Green to my parents house near Oldbury. I'd get my 'local bus' the 37, to a BRT interchange on the Stratford Road in Sparkbrook, where I'd get on a Sprint bus into the city centre terminus, change onto another Sprint bus going along the Hagley Road out to a BRT interchange at Bearwood, and then join the 'local' 120 bus to get to my parents. All the time, I'm not having to buy tickets, I just touch a SWIFT card on the readers. And the Sprint buses are running every five minutes or so, offering a real 'turn-up-and-go' service, and shouldn't have any major capacity issues.

It's just a theory, and there would need to be massive infrastructure changes to support this theory, but I just wanted to share an example of how I feel Sprint/BRT needs to work in order to be successful. Otherwise it will really just be 'the bus that thinks its a tram' and only used by people who can afford to do so.

That vision of the future would potentially wipe out a third of NXWM's bus fleet / business. I can't see NX being very happy about that proposal if they weren't involved with the running of Sprint, but simply providing feeder services.

For an Oyster style mutli-modal scheme to be implemented in the West Midlands, NXWM would need to relinquish it's travelcard business and by compensated accordingly by Centro, otherwise Centro would have to consider compulsory purchasing the business that's if they had the power to do so, which I suspect they don't.

Additionally, Centro don't have the power the tell NXWM to stop running the No 9 every 7/8mins (peaks) & every 10 mins (daytime) between Birmingham & Quinton just because they are introducing Sprint. For Sprint to work, NX needs to be involved for it to be integrated in the existing transport network and set-up within NXWM & Centro's quality partnership.

[the trainbasher]

@Winston unless they follow the London model...

[winston]

@Winston unless they follow the London model...

But they can't follow the London model, as Centro's hands are tied as they don't have the power to take over control of NXWM's bus routes and suddenly make them have to tender for them along with any other operators. Even if Centro did have such powers, NX would still need to be compensated financially by Centro as the bus routes are registered to NXWM. Likewise with their Travelcard business.

[Stuharris 6360]

(as an aside, my 2000th post)

Would not the London model of bus operation work within the West Midlands, ie: Centro control all the services and they tender them out to operators who apply to run them, but as a whole service, by that i mean that any tendered journeys must be run by that operator. All fares to be managed by Centro with all passes, smartcards etc valid on all services. then Surely Sprint could be amalgamated into the services correctly, who ever is given the contract to run it?

Yes it would be a little mucky at first, but it would stop the operators who just want to make rich pickings on routes, running when they want to, & behaving inappropriately!

[winston]

(as an aside, my 2000th post)

Would not the London model of bus operation work within the West Midlands, ie: Centro control all the services and they tender them out to operators who apply to run them, but as a whole service, by that i mean that any tendered journeys must be run by that operator. All fares to be managed by Centro with all passes, smartcards etc valid on all services. then Surely Sprint could be amalgamated into the services correctly, who ever is given the contract to run it?

Yes it would be a little mucky at first, but it would stop the operators who just want to make rich pickings on routes, running when they want to, & behaving inappropriately!

As I said above, why would NXWM suddenly hand over control of their commercial route network (registered to WMT (ta NXWM) with the traffic commissioner) and their NXWM travelcard business without financial compensation?

Centro would effectively need to seize control of NXWM bus business, which is never going to happen.

Therefore, how can a London Style of operation ever be implemented in the West Midlands? Not least the amount of subsidy tax payers would need to stump up, but that's another story that's been discussed on her numerous times.

[Justin Tyme]

Also, don't forget the passengers.

A forced change of vehicle will not be popular unless it provides a significant time advantage. I can't see getting off a bus seat at Bearwood to have to stand on a Sprint to town going down well.  Nor would just missing a bus to Halesowen on arrival at Quinton.

Car users don't change cars in mid-journey.  I hope that planners bear this in mind and don't impose a forced change on bus users.  I am disappointed that the Sprint consultation document gives no reassurance on that score.

[Tony]

Also, don't forget the passengers.

A forced change of vehicle will not be popular unless it provides a significant time advantage. I can't see getting off a bus seat at Bearwood to have to stand on a Sprint to town going down well.  Nor would just missing a bus to Halesowen on arrival at Quinton.

Car users don't change cars in mid-journey.  I hope that planners bear this in mind and don't impose a forced change on bus users.  I am disappointed that the Sprint consultation document gives no reassurance on that score.

I remember when Tyne & Wear PTE tried that in the 1980s with their metro. All bus route were changed to go to Metro stations with very few routes crossing the Tyne into Newcastle. Went down like a lead balloon with passengers and the through buses were soon reinstated

[Alex]

I'm curious what type of buses they're planning to use or would it just be a case of uprating the engines on the Scania bendy buses on the 67, and replacing them with conventional buses

[winston]

I'm curious what type of buses they're planning to use or would it just be a case of uprating the engines on the Scania bendy buses on the 67, and replacing them with conventional buses

A simple Google search of Sprint will find you all what you need to know:

http://www.centro.org.uk/about-us/news/2014/sprint-to-make-birmingham-debut-on-broad-street-and-hagley-road/
https://www.centro.org.uk/transport/sprint/
http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/business/business-news/sprint-buses-down-hagley-road-7529015

Why would they use Scania Bendi's which will be 12 years old in 2016 on such a high profile route?

[arrifirststage]

Most of the above is yet further proof........don't let PR crackpots loose with anything.
If I wanted to go (to use a previous example) from Acocks Green to Oldbury then my own car will inevitably be easier than any bus alternative with or without changes.
By all means improve routes along Hagley Road,or any other road,by improving the road network,not by blocking the existing space with ever larger buses.
If these monsters do not work in a small place like York,they sure as he'll will be even worse in larger cities.

[winston]

Most of the above is yet further proof........don't let PR crackpots loose with anything.
If I wanted to go (to use a previous example) from Acocks Green to Oldbury then my own car will inevitably be easier than any bus alternative with or without changes.
By all means improve routes along Hagley Road,or any other road,by improving the road network,not by blocking the existing space with ever larger buses.
If these monsters do not work in a small place like York,they sure as he'll will be even worse in larger cities.

Exactly! Centro will be a decade behind First Groups FTR project by the time Sprint is finally launched, have Centro not observed the massive flop that is FTR??? First Group are now stuck with these £300k machines and don't really know what to do with them......