Coventry Garage

[Tony]

So yes, this is now pretty much guaranteed unreliability!
The slightest thing can knock NXC's timetables because, compared with other companies, they just don't provide the same flexibility in their schedules.

Which other companies are you referring to that provide 'flexibility'?
The small competitors in the West Midlands run to tighter timetables than NX. Arriva/First certainly don't give there timetables any slack

Not being overly familiar with the West Midlands, I am not too sure about this area.
(Though WMSNT's service 1 was very good and had loads of stand time, until NX took it over when (coincidentally I'm sure) Centro modified the route and reduced this time heavily.)
However, up North, it just seems to be standard practice for there to be appropriate recovery time built into the timetable.
For example, Wigan Road in Warrington sometimes becomes gridlocked if there is an accident on one of the nearby motorways.
Arriva's 329 is allocated 12 minutes' recovery time in Warrington to account for this, and their 360 gets 10 minutes.
This is generally enough to cope with such times, and of course provides excellent reliability and punctuality on almost every journey -- something which, surprisingly enough, passengers really value.

If what you say is true and all of Arriva's services have 0 minutes' time between each run, then it sounds like Arriva is much less realistic down here, and they are even worse than National Express for providing a service which can actually function in accordance with the schedule on every journey of every day.

Funnily enough, I once did a 110 from Tamworth to Birmingham, and not only did it depart Tamworth a few minutes late, but it also became further and further behind over the journey, arriving in Birmingham something like 20 minutes late.
And this was on a Sunday with there being no major incidents or the like en route.
This is of course a one-journey experience, but put it this way, I have never tried to make that journey by bus again.

I suppose that, whatever the case though, surely no company can beat Megabus's insanely tight timetables which require flat-out running and pretty much no opportunity to recover lost time whatsoever.
It's just foolish, and has cost them a bob or two in compensatory tickets to me for journeys running unacceptably late and getting further and further behind as time went on.

Put it this way, many international students at Warwick University are very unimpressed with public transport in England, based on what they have seen around here.
Some have said to me that transport companies in their home countries face huge fines (and public criticism) if there is late running, even by just a couple of minutes: it is almost an unspeakable event.
Whereas around here, you get to the bus stop knowing that anything could happen.

Anyway, I shall be watching the changes to the 11 closely, and we shall see what happens.

You quote 12/10 minutes layover time as good. A Lot of NXWM routes get more than that! The 14 for example gets about 12 minutes on each trip during the day and 25 minutes in the peak at Chelmsley Wood. Most other routes I drove at BC had similar times.

[Valandil]

Yes, I had notified NXC about some of these errors hence their website now linking to the hardly any better Centro version of the timetable, which also includes the likely expired University Holiday version of the timetable under the old route.
On the very same MF 0916 journey the timings for Hearsall Common and onwards are meant to be 10 minute earlier than shown.   ::)
That University Security office timing point for some service 12 journeys is also a bit strange, Outbound timings rarely seem to match up with Inbound, Sunday daytimes being a good example, unless the buses are going around the loop twice?

Some progress there at least! :)

I do hope that drivers observe the loop twice.
I know that some students do not bother with the unversity bus stop by the Digital Laboratory and engineering buildings, walking across campus to the Arts Centre stop instead, because reliability is (understandably) better there.
(Though this also seems to be in part because they see buses displaying 'Not in Service' go past the engineering stop, which then go and park up at the Arts Centre bus stop, which in many cases is what the timetable intends.)

[Valandil]

You quote 12/10 minutes layover time as good. A Lot of NXWM routes get more than that! The 14 for example gets about 12 minutes on each trip during the day and 25 minutes in the peak at Chelmsley Wood. Most other routes I drove at BC had similar times.

The times you quote sound very good on the face of it (though I am not familiar with the route of the 14).
It seems to me that the timetables are much more realistic and accommodating in Birmingham than in Coventry, in general.
I might try and mooch around for some reliability statistics, as it would be interesting to know how Coventry and Birmingham depots compare.

Actually, there is a good one: the 900 seems to be good at departing Coventry on time, due to stand time, but very often departs Birmingham late in my experience, as there is very little at that end.
This route demonstrates perhaps a reversal of fortunes!

[Valandil]

All I'm saying is ... so far, oh dear!

I have not been around all day, but I have just walked around campus and between 1853 and 1858 I saw THREE 11's towards Coventry (I can only assume that these were the 1816, 1831 and 1846 as timed from the Security Gatehouse), plus one 12 displaying Coventry so must have been the 1823, or else had the destination set incorrectly -- it should have been on NIS/Setting Down Only if it was the 1906.

I also had a brief stint here before and noted an 11 towards Coventry and a 12 arriving together at 1520 (I assume these were the 1506 and 1521), with the 11 departing at 1522 and the 12 at 1524.
And the 11 towards Leamington meant to be there at 1521 also came at 1533 and departed at 1535; this was also still showing 'Leamington Spa // High Street' instead of 'Tachbrook Road' (or 'Tatchbrook Road' according to some parts of the timetable :P).

It is early days, but I think that this is par for the course.
Though I imagine that Stagecoach is happy: the 16 towards Coventry seemed to get quite a bit of custom when the 11 meant to be there at 1506 didn't show up until it was 'too late' for some.

[Valandil]

I was only around for a short time in the middle of the day today, but while I was there I noted that some may have thought that the 11 was departing early because it was in fact nearly 30 minutes late (departed Rootes Bus Stop at 1332 instead of 1306).
(There was no sign of the 11 in the other direction due at 1321 so I am not sure how late that was.)
The 12's don't seem to be as bad from what I have seen so far though, with the one I saw earlier running only 4 minutes late.

EDIT: Just reading Route One (http://www.route-one.net/issues/507/index.html#/4/) and the 97(A) is mentioned as the key example of unreliability due to too little layover: "Inadequate recovery time at the end of a journey proved to be a recurrent theme that often had knock-on effects later in the day. For example, minimal layover time of no more than one or two minutes in Birmingham city centre offers no leeway to buses on route 97/97A."

[bwsau cymru]

4753 is over at coventry garage been driven in by an engineer

[Ben]

Actually, there is a good one: the 900 seems to be good at departing Coventry on time, due to stand time, but very often departs Birmingham late in my experience, as there is very little at that end.
This route demonstrates perhaps a reversal of fortunes!

I've noticed over the years the route has been shortened, yet it still can be inconsistent.

-No longer doubles back through Millisons wood when travelling towards Coventry.


I got the bus to the airport a few weeks ago and I'm pretty certain it didn't leave the A45 at Stonebridge Island either. (Towards Birmingham)

[John]

I got the bus to the airport a few weeks ago and I'm pretty certain it didn't leave the A45 at Stonebridge Island either. (Towards Birmingham)

No it doesn't use Stonebridge Island when Birmingham bound

[Tony]

I was only around for a short time in the middle of the day today, but while I was there I noted that some may have thought that the 11 was departing early because it was in fact nearly 30 minutes late (departed Rootes Bus Stop at 1332 instead of 1306).
(There was no sign of the 11 in the other direction due at 1321 so I am not sure how late that was.)
The 12's don't seem to be as bad from what I have seen so far though, with the one I saw earlier running only 4 minutes late.

EDIT: Just reading Route One (http://www.route-one.net/issues/507/index.html#/4/) and the 97(A) is mentioned as the key example of unreliability due to too little layover: "Inadequate recovery time at the end of a journey proved to be a recurrent theme that often had knock-on effects later in the day. For example, minimal layover time of no more than one or two minutes in Birmingham city centre offers no leeway to buses on route 97/97A."

That survey was done before the Airport extension and the current timetable. It refers to the old 97 and 97A( Bluebell Drive) services.

It refers to the Birmingham end of the route with 1 minute recovery time. What it fails to mention is it was illegal for any Bus in Birmingham to be on a stop for more than one minute due to a by-law that was enforced by the TC!

Since that was repealed and buses can now spend up to 4 minutes on stops in Birmingham City Centre most NXWM routes do have 4 minutes layover in City in the timetable

[Valandil]

Interesting situation at the university tonight!
There were 3 number 11's at the Arts Centre bus stop at 22:23: two towards Coventry and one towards Leamington (which had helpfully stopped on the wrong side of the road and was picking up passengers, to the annoyance of the vehicles behind).
Either the additional vehicle was a (much-needed) extra vehicle (all 3 vehicles looked pretty much full), or at least one was an hour behind.

[F37 XOF]

Extra journeys on the 11/12 has not been uncommon for years, especially during night time.
Back to 4-5 years ago when 12 still went to Leamington, there's always a late night 12 for Leamington which arrived at Hearsall Common at 1:15am & this was not listed on the timetable. Yet it had quite heavy loading & seems like many uni students knew about this departure.

[Valandil]

That's very interesting!
Quite strange.

[Valandil]

From Bus and Coach Buyer: it was announced by Norman Baker at 'Coach and Bus Live' that there are to be 29 buses in the West Midlands with exhaust gas treatment.
Maybe some of these will be in Coventry!

[:D]

I have been commuting to Warwick University and have found 11/12 to be VERY unreliable, so unreliable it's still late at off-peak periods. Much more buses at peak periods is needed, as these buses are often full even if there's another 2 or so behind the bus. In most of my life, I have been commuting on NXWM buses, I do sometimes find them unreliable but never as unreliable as these buses passing through the university.

I've noticed this unreliability occurs to ALL bus services serving the University, even including the X17 which passes the university close by. In fact, I think only the 87 is reliable.

I would rather to use X17 in the early morning and walk 15 minutes to the university than wait another 5 minutes and hope the 11/12 comes on time (and isn't full).

[Valandil]

I have been commuting to Warwick University and have found 11/12 to be VERY unreliable, so unreliable it's still late at off-peak periods. Much more buses at peak periods is needed, as these buses are often full even if there's another 2 or so behind the bus. In most of my life, I have been commuting on NXWM buses, I do sometimes find them unreliable but never as unreliable as these buses passing through the university.

I've noticed this unreliability occurs to ALL bus services serving the University, even including the X17 which passes the university close by. In fact, I think only the 87 is reliable.

I would rather to use X17 in the early morning and walk 15 minutes to the university than wait another 5 minutes and hope the 11/12 comes on time (and isn't full).

Certainly people who have lectures at Gibbet Hill find that the X17 works much better.
The route of the X17 isn't even that much longer than that off the 11.

I know that the 11 has such a bad reputation for reliability that it is widely accepted among Warwick students that Kenilworth is not a viable place to live for those who cannot drive, despite in theory having a half-hourly service and hourly at night / Sundays.

I appreciate the comments that the 11 may be being exceptionally bad at the moment due to things beyond NXC's control, and that it may not be quite as bad after, say, 2 weeks.
However, on this route there is always something happening which is beyond NXC's control.
It's a bit like a commuter having disruption on their way to work: if they are aware of it, they ought to plan ahead, instead of keeping to their usual schedule and just sitting there on a train which isn't going anywhere, explaining to their boss that it wasn't their fault, gov.
Whether the disruption is their fault or not doesn't really matter, so long as they get there on time.
Because otherwise their boss is going to fall out with them very quickly.

I agree that the 87 is very reliable, but I also think that the W1a and W1c are very reliable.
The (NXC) 18a, which also goes close, is not too bad usually, though sometimes can be way out.