Diamonds problem

[winston]

I would think black diamond has got to be the biggest profit maker out of all the three diamond brands every commercial service out of Tividale is well used I know it doesn't mean that necessarily generates a high profit for that particular service but seems positive. The signature brand seems strong as well having used the 82 a few times it's always well used using top quality citaro's. Rotala does seem to be investing but it's all for Preston and Wessex and non for diamond.

It may be that the investment is going to the areas that are making the most money or the invest will potentially achieve the greatest return.

Preston bus since coming under Rotala ownership have had 1 x Mercedes Citaro 10031 (2010) 7 x Optare Versa Hybrids 30122-7 & 30131 (6 in 2011, 1 in 2012) 3 x Wrightbus Streetlites Ex demonstrators 20907-9 (2012) & 4 x Volvo B5LH/Wright Hybrids 40606-9 (2012) & 7 secondhand Tridents 40540-5 & 40600/1 (5 x Presidents ex Lothian, 2 x ALX400 ex Stagecoach London), so haven't done bad

Wessex has had 9 x Volvo B7RLE/Wright 30525-7 & 30924-8 + BX62FEU, 4 x Volvo B9TL/Wright Gemini 40602-5 & a new batch of 6/7 Optare Solo SR's, it may that some of the investment at Wessex is dictated by the various University contracts

[PM]

Bottom line is diamond is and always have been the underdog their marginal success in previous years or their decline in recent years is more to do with management and budgets of the company. Maybe rotala have bitten off more they can chew! All operators have the ability to do their own travel passes as diamond do its just that the NX one is more competitive than others nothing to do with being unfair. NX offer a product to its customers they choose to buy it. Is it unfair and should the CC be involved with tesco as Asda don't accept their clubcard? Same difference.the choice is there. A local route to me operated by diamond and hansons the 226 hansons ran it first diamond butted in 5 minutes in front until centro stepped in diamond run tendered and commercially but it seems clear that hansons do better.

Exactly my point, Hansons do better because they started the route and people became familiar with their buses and drivers. Then they see Diamond trying to push in and take over the route when it becomes a success, in my experience people don't take kindly to that.

I know i have said this before, but i still feel one operator to one service would be better than the present situation.

Nope competition is essential. As can be seen in the case of Arriva Cannock, where there is little competition it leads to high fares and poor buses as indeed NX has done on the Bristol Road-bad old tridents that companies like Oxford bus would have withdrawn years ago. Competition is absolutely vital-NXWM put new buses on the 404 BECAUSE of diamond and the cheaper fares are down to competition.

So Tridents like those on the Bristol Road would have been withdrawn years ago?
Complete crap. Oxford are still using T reg tridents, older than anything on the Bristol Road

Actually Oxford are withdrawing this batch of tridents and buses in the Go North East and Brighton fleets of similar ages have been sold on-admittedly a couple of step entry olympians soldier on on low cost services-another thing NX has failed to really try after the 26 experiment-but brighton certainly is selling buses around 13 years old. As for stagecoach in Manchester, many of the buses on Magic Bus services are newer and/or in better condition than some of what BC turns out each day.

[winston]

Bottom line is diamond is and always have been the underdog their marginal success in previous years or their decline in recent years is more to do with management and budgets of the company. Maybe rotala have bitten off more they can chew! All operators have the ability to do their own travel passes as diamond do its just that the NX one is more competitive than others nothing to do with being unfair. NX offer a product to its customers they choose to buy it. Is it unfair and should the CC be involved with tesco as Asda don't accept their clubcard? Same difference.the choice is there. A local route to me operated by diamond and hansons the 226 hansons ran it first diamond butted in 5 minutes in front until centro stepped in diamond run tendered and commercially but it seems clear that hansons do better.

Exactly my point, Hansons do better because they started the route and people became familiar with their buses and drivers. Then they see Diamond trying to push in and take over the route when it becomes a success, in my experience people don't take kindly to that.

I know i have said this before, but i still feel one operator to one service would be better than the present situation.

Nope competition is essential. As can be seen in the case of Arriva Cannock, where there is little competition it leads to high fares and poor buses as indeed NX has done on the Bristol Road-bad old tridents that companies like Oxford bus would have withdrawn years ago. Competition is absolutely vital-NXWM put new buses on the 404 BECAUSE of diamond and the cheaper fares are down to competition.

So Tridents like those on the Bristol Road would have been withdrawn years ago?
Complete crap. Oxford are still using T reg tridents, older than anything on the Bristol Road

Actually Oxford are withdrawing this batch of tridents and buses in the Go North East and Brighton fleets of similar ages have been sold on-admittedly a couple of step entry olympians soldier on on low cost services-another thing NX has failed to really try after the 26 experiment-but brighton certainly is selling buses around 13 years old. As for stagecoach in Manchester, many of the buses on Magic Bus services are newer and/or in better condition than some of what BC turns out each day.

Peter,

The fleets you're comparing NXWM against aren't like for like, Oxford only has a fleet of around 245 buses, Brighton & Hove has 291 buses & Go North East has 682 buses whilst NXWM is more in the region of 1540 buses. The entire Oxford business is not much bigger than BC's allocation. TWM/NXWM did go through two periods where fewer new buses were delivered in 2005/6 (new buses were diverted to Travel London for tender wins) &  in 2009/2010 due to the NX group being cash strapped/battling takeover attempts & high debt levels after making losses on the East Coast Franchise. Therefore they are now playing catch up. Give them a chance; they can't upgrade all the main corridors all at once after all in the past 18 months NX UK bus has taken delivery of 250 new buses with another 130 due this year, 380 new buses over a two year period is pretty good going. By the end of 2013 that will mean nearly a quarter of the combined NXWM & NXD fleets will have been replaced in 2 years. Once the last of the B6LE / B10L & Early Mercs (1515-1627) go, the average age will rise significantly, especially as NXWM's single deck fleet will be very modern with the majority being 2006 or newer, and it just the double deck fleet that needs modernising which appears to be happening from orders quoted this year 

[Discodave]

Funny people should mention competition when diamond were on the 59 (PL) the NXWM one was always kept to time and was reliable.  As soon as diamond went back to poor operation NXWM buses were always in 2's or 3's and this was at quiet periods so its not running time that is the issue.  Please explain as I used to do the old 559 and I never struggled at quiet times and the running time was not too bad and the 559 was my first ever run in service and I kept to time in Metros.

[PM]

Bottom line is diamond is and always have been the underdog their marginal success in previous years or their decline in recent years is more to do with management and budgets of the company. Maybe rotala have bitten off more they can chew! All operators have the ability to do their own travel passes as diamond do its just that the NX one is more competitive than others nothing to do with being unfair. NX offer a product to its customers they choose to buy it. Is it unfair and should the CC be involved with tesco as Asda don't accept their clubcard? Same difference.the choice is there. A local route to me operated by diamond and hansons the 226 hansons ran it first diamond butted in 5 minutes in front until centro stepped in diamond run tendered and commercially but it seems clear that hansons do better.

Exactly my point, Hansons do better because they started the route and people became familiar with their buses and drivers. Then they see Diamond trying to push in and take over the route when it becomes a success, in my experience people don't take kindly to that.

I know i have said this before, but i still feel one operator to one service would be better than the present situation.

Nope competition is essential. As can be seen in the case of Arriva Cannock, where there is little competition it leads to high fares and poor buses as indeed NX has done on the Bristol Road-bad old tridents that companies like Oxford bus would have withdrawn years ago. Competition is absolutely vital-NXWM put new buses on the 404 BECAUSE of diamond and the cheaper fares are down to competition.

So Tridents like those on the Bristol Road would have been withdrawn years ago?
Complete crap. Oxford are still using T reg tridents, older than anything on the Bristol Road

Actually Oxford are withdrawing this batch of tridents and buses in the Go North East and Brighton fleets of similar ages have been sold on-admittedly a couple of step entry olympians soldier on on low cost services-another thing NX has failed to really try after the 26 experiment-but brighton certainly is selling buses around 13 years old. As for stagecoach in Manchester, many of the buses on Magic Bus services are newer and/or in better condition than some of what BC turns out each day.

Peter,

The fleets you're comparing NXWM against aren't like for like, Oxford only has a fleet of around 245 buses, Brighton & Hove has 291 buses & Go North East has 682 buses whilst NXWM is more in the region of 1540 buses. The entire Oxford business is not much bigger than BC's allocation. TWM/NXWM did go through two periods where fewer new buses were delivered in 2005/6 (new buses were diverted to Travel London for tender wins) &  in 2009/2010 due to the NX group being cash strapped/battling takeover attempts & high debt levels after making losses on the East Coast Franchise. Therefore they are now playing catch up. Give them a chance; they can't upgrade all the main corridors all at once after all in the past 18 months NX UK bus has taken delivery of 250 new buses with another 130 due this year, 380 new buses over a two year period is pretty good going. By the end of 2013 that will mean nearly a quarter of the combined NXWM & NXD fleets will have been replaced in 2 years. Once the last of the B6LE / B10L & Early Mercs (1515-1627) go, the average age will rise significantly, especially as NXWM's single deck fleet will be very modern with the majority being 2006 or newer, and it just the double deck fleet that needs modernising which appears to be happening from orders quoted this year

Sorry I accept it was a totally unfair comparison.  :-[ I do agree with your point however that NX are making a great effort to improve services at the moment and it is to be hoped that the current momentum lasts and that diamond are able to invest too as they really need to. I will say this in diamond's defence as some people are not that keen on them: their buses are clean, even the older ones refurbed, drivers are polite and they are a good company that manages to do well in spite of not making tonnes of money like others with a monopoly.

[MW]

Diamonds buses are clean because nobody uses them.

[Tony]

Bottom line is diamond is and always have been the underdog their marginal success in previous years or their decline in recent years is more to do with management and budgets of the company. Maybe rotala have bitten off more they can chew! All operators have the ability to do their own travel passes as diamond do its just that the NX one is more competitive than others nothing to do with being unfair. NX offer a product to its customers they choose to buy it. Is it unfair and should the CC be involved with tesco as Asda don't accept their clubcard? Same difference.the choice is there. A local route to me operated by diamond and hansons the 226 hansons ran it first diamond butted in 5 minutes in front until centro stepped in diamond run tendered and commercially but it seems clear that hansons do better.

Exactly my point, Hansons do better because they started the route and people became familiar with their buses and drivers. Then they see Diamond trying to push in and take over the route when it becomes a success, in my experience people don't take kindly to that.

I know i have said this before, but i still feel one operator to one service would be better than the present situation.

Nope competition is essential. As can be seen in the case of Arriva Cannock, where there is little competition it leads to high fares and poor buses as indeed NX has done on the Bristol Road-bad old tridents that companies like Oxford bus would have withdrawn years ago. Competition is absolutely vital-NXWM put new buses on the 404 BECAUSE of diamond and the cheaper fares are down to competition.

So Tridents like those on the Bristol Road would have been withdrawn years ago?
Complete crap. Oxford are still using T reg tridents, older than anything on the Bristol Road

Actually Oxford are withdrawing this batch of tridents and buses in the Go North East and Brighton fleets of similar ages have been sold on-admittedly a couple of step entry olympians soldier on on low cost services-another thing NX has failed to really try after the 26 experiment-but brighton certainly is selling buses around 13 years old. As for stagecoach in Manchester, many of the buses on Magic Bus services are newer and/or in better condition than some of what BC turns out each day.

That was my point. Even Oxford, which people think of as having an ultra modern fleet, is only just taking 12 year old Tridents out of service. The oldest buses on the Bristol Road are 11 years old so certainly would not have been withdrawn 'years ago' like you claimed. I doubt these T reg Tridents will even be 'withdrawn' just transferred elsewhere in the Go-Ahead group as Go-Ahead have an awful lot of vehicles a lot older than anything at BC to replace specially in all the recently acquired fleets.
Even Brighton and Hove still has 'N' reg darts and 'R' reg B10s still in service.
Hedingham & District still has wonderful pieces of machinary like step entrace B6s in use. If 116-119 were still in use at Pensnett then you would have something to compain about!

[PM]

Diamonds buses are clean because nobody uses them.

Come on that's not fair. Many of diamond's services are very well used.

[winston]

Bottom line is diamond is and always have been the underdog their marginal success in previous years or their decline in recent years is more to do with management and budgets of the company. Maybe rotala have bitten off more they can chew! All operators have the ability to do their own travel passes as diamond do its just that the NX one is more competitive than others nothing to do with being unfair. NX offer a product to its customers they choose to buy it. Is it unfair and should the CC be involved with tesco as Asda don't accept their clubcard? Same difference.the choice is there. A local route to me operated by diamond and hansons the 226 hansons ran it first diamond butted in 5 minutes in front until centro stepped in diamond run tendered and commercially but it seems clear that hansons do better.

Exactly my point, Hansons do better because they started the route and people became familiar with their buses and drivers. Then they see Diamond trying to push in and take over the route when it becomes a success, in my experience people don't take kindly to that.

I know i have said this before, but i still feel one operator to one service would be better than the present situation.

Nope competition is essential. As can be seen in the case of Arriva Cannock, where there is little competition it leads to high fares and poor buses as indeed NX has done on the Bristol Road-bad old tridents that companies like Oxford bus would have withdrawn years ago. Competition is absolutely vital-NXWM put new buses on the 404 BECAUSE of diamond and the cheaper fares are down to competition.

So Tridents like those on the Bristol Road would have been withdrawn years ago?
Complete crap. Oxford are still using T reg tridents, older than anything on the Bristol Road

Actually Oxford are withdrawing this batch of tridents and buses in the Go North East and Brighton fleets of similar ages have been sold on-admittedly a couple of step entry olympians soldier on on low cost services-another thing NX has failed to really try after the 26 experiment-but brighton certainly is selling buses around 13 years old. As for stagecoach in Manchester, many of the buses on Magic Bus services are newer and/or in better condition than some of what BC turns out each day.

Peter,

The fleets you're comparing NXWM against aren't like for like, Oxford only has a fleet of around 245 buses, Brighton & Hove has 291 buses & Go North East has 682 buses whilst NXWM is more in the region of 1540 buses. The entire Oxford business is not much bigger than BC's allocation. TWM/NXWM did go through two periods where fewer new buses were delivered in 2005/6 (new buses were diverted to Travel London for tender wins) &  in 2009/2010 due to the NX group being cash strapped/battling takeover attempts & high debt levels after making losses on the East Coast Franchise. Therefore they are now playing catch up. Give them a chance; they can't upgrade all the main corridors all at once after all in the past 18 months NX UK bus has taken delivery of 250 new buses with another 130 due this year, 380 new buses over a two year period is pretty good going. By the end of 2013 that will mean nearly a quarter of the combined NXWM & NXD fleets will have been replaced in 2 years. Once the last of the B6LE / B10L & Early Mercs (1515-1627) go, the average age will rise significantly, especially as NXWM's single deck fleet will be very modern with the majority being 2006 or newer, and it just the double deck fleet that needs modernising which appears to be happening from orders quoted this year

Sorry I accept it was a totally unfair comparison.  :-[ I do agree with your point however that NX are making a great effort to improve services at the moment and it is to be hoped that the current momentum lasts and that diamond are able to invest too as they really need to. I will say this in diamond's defence as some people are not that keen on them: their buses are clean, even the older ones refurbed, drivers are polite and they are a good company that manages to do well in spite of not making tonnes of money like others with a monopoly.

I think part of the quantity of new buses being delivered is down to keeping Centro sweet by signing up to a Quality partnership scheme rather than going down the quality contracts route and the change in NX group & NXWM management. If NX continue with the current investment levels the average age will fall quite considerably and will more than likely be on a par with a Go-Ahead Group fleet. NXWM are also playing catch-up with re-trimming bus interiors, realistically the early Tridents & Volvo B7TL/ALX400 should have been re-trimmed a number of years ago & should now be coming up to their second re-trim. The momentum of repaints/internal refreshing is encouraging, let's hope it continues, but again it going take some time to get around to doing a large proportion of the due to the size of the fleet.

I must admit, I used to quite like Diamond / Rotala when they had a go at First in Worcester and were introducing all the various liveries & brandings on competing routes, I think Diamond have been on a downward spiral ever since they withdrew from Worcester & sold all the 23 MAN/MCV's without new replacements (Hybrid Versa's excluded). I don't think the Diamond business now lives up to the quality operation that the Rotala Plc website will have you believe, there is a marked difference in the quality of Wessex & Preston compared with the West Midlands operations, it's not just down to the fact that Diamond receive few new buses, there must be reasons why the majority of the investment is going in to Wessex & Preston and not coming Diamond's way.....

[winston]

Diamonds buses are clean because nobody uses them.

Come on that's not fair. Many of diamond's services are very well used.

A little, but they don't carry the volumes NXWM buses do or the scumbags.....

[MW]

The chars get free bus passes for NXWM usually from school/college/work/the dole, which is why Diamond buses are clean. I will bet you that Diamond doesn't clean it's vehicles to NX standards, it's just that there's more wear and tear on NX buses.

[JoNi]

The average of the fleet is only one factor, it's also how well it's looked after and also treated by passengers.

It will be interesting to see the condition of the large number of new NX buses in five years time.
4836 in Coventry has large dents in lower panels on both sides of the bus which it received several months ago.....

I travelled on one of the N reg darts in Brighton recently which puts the state of many NX buses to shame especially the Mercs. These N reg Darts started life serving the notorious Moulescomb estate in Brighton, two remain with seats trimmed in the latest style appearing to the passenger as good as new. 

The size of the NX fleet is a red herring as the resources and culture should exist to keep any fleet of vehicles in excellent condition.

[PM]

The average of the fleet is only one factor, it's also how well it's looked after and also treated by passengers.

It will be interesting to see the condition of the large number of new NX buses in five years time.
4836 in Coventry has large dents in lower panels on both sides of the bus which it received several months ago.....

I travelled on one of the N reg darts in Brighton recently which puts the state of many NX buses to shame especially the Mercs. These N reg Darts started life serving the notorious Moulescomb estate in Brighton, two remain with seats trimmed in the latest style appearing to the passenger as good as new. 

The size of the NX fleet is a red herring as the resources and culture should exist to keep any fleet of vehicles in excellent condition.

Are these Marshall bodied darts or plaxton bodied ones that remain? Just interested

[Tony]

The average of the fleet is only one factor, it's also how well it's looked after and also treated by passengers.

It will be interesting to see the condition of the large number of new NX buses in five years time.
4836 in Coventry has large dents in lower panels on both sides of the bus which it received several months ago.....

I travelled on one of the N reg darts in Brighton recently which puts the state of many NX buses to shame especially the Mercs. These N reg Darts started life serving the notorious Moulescomb estate in Brighton, two remain with seats trimmed in the latest style appearing to the passenger as good as new. 

The size of the NX fleet is a red herring as the resources and culture should exist to keep any fleet of vehicles in excellent condition.

Are these Marshall bodied darts or plaxton bodied ones that remain? Just interested

207   N207 NNJ   Ds Dt SLF   SFD322BR1TGW10151   Plaxton B39F   9610.6HLZ5280
209   N209 NNJ   Ds Dt SLF   SFD322BR1TGW10153   Plaxton B39F   9610.6HLZ5282
210   N210 NNJ   Ds Dt SLF   SFD322BR1TGW10154   Plaxton B39F   9610.6HLZ5283

[PM]

The average of the fleet is only one factor, it's also how well it's looked after and also treated by passengers.

It will be interesting to see the condition of the large number of new NX buses in five years time.
4836 in Coventry has large dents in lower panels on both sides of the bus which it received several months ago.....

I travelled on one of the N reg darts in Brighton recently which puts the state of many NX buses to shame especially the Mercs. These N reg Darts started life serving the notorious Moulescomb estate in Brighton, two remain with seats trimmed in the latest style appearing to the passenger as good as new. 

The size of the NX fleet is a red herring as the resources and culture should exist to keep any fleet of vehicles in excellent condition.

Are these Marshall bodied darts or plaxton bodied ones that remain? Just interested

207   N207 NNJ   Ds Dt SLF   SFD322BR1TGW10151   Plaxton B39F   9610.6HLZ5280
209   N209 NNJ   Ds Dt SLF   SFD322BR1TGW10153   Plaxton B39F   9610.6HLZ5282
210   N210 NNJ   Ds Dt SLF   SFD322BR1TGW10154   Plaxton B39F   9610.6HLZ5283

Cheers Tony-didn't know if they still had any of the Marshall ones left like the ex go north east ones diamond had which were in very good condition.