Birmingham park and ride?

[danny]

Hey hey guys, soo I went to visit my mate who is at uni in Cambridge (I know,  right proud friend right here) and decided to leave my little speed demon at the trupington P&R, it really worked and I was really impressed, with reliability, clenliness and journey time, do we think that with funding, we could make it work here in brum, or have we tried it before, the floor is open

[andy]

There was a scheme for a while based at Star City I think and it seemed to work well, the problem was take up but thyen anything in Birmingham regarding public transport tends to be done half heartedly and it was never properly promoted or made attractive enough for people to use in any great numbers. The other problem is that Star City isn't that accessible anymore for motorists as traffic is pretty nasty on all approaches to it these days, so any park and ride would probably have to be even further out.

Also there is little or no bus lane enforcement round here so there is no guaranteed traffic free route into the city for buses. From Star City they used the A47 bus lane and then the buslane from Saltley Gate into the City, but there's all sorts of roadworks on that at the moment.

[Ashley]

All I can say is that if things were done properly with the use of bus priorities eg bus lanes and priority traffic lights as well as a well promotec service with high spec vehicles then it could work. Without wishing to go off on a rant but a park and ride scheme could help to decrease congestion, a low emission zone in my view is some what half hearted and in all honesty is just a headache that bus operators don't really need

[andy]

All I can say is that if things were done properly with the use of bus priorities eg bus lanes and priority traffic lights as well as a well promoted service with high spec vehicles then it could work. Without wishing to go off on a rant but a park and ride scheme could help to decrease congestion, a low emission zone in my view is some what half hearted and in all honesty is just a headache that bus operators don't really need

The emission zone approach is lazy policy by politicians who have never set foot on public transport. They think that placing what is no more than an age restriction on vehicles will encourage more use of buses but as usual they miss the point completely. A 51 plate knacker with threadbare seats which turns up 20 minutes late and is already overloaded meets all their guidelines but offers no solution whatsoever to the challenge of building public transport usage.

[Ashley]

These age restriction policies are worthless in places outside London because they implement them in areas that have seen a decline in public transport usage such as Liverpool and Sheffield and now Birmingham

[Stu]

The emission zone approach is lazy policy by politicians who have never set foot on public transport. They think that placing what is no more than an age restriction on vehicles will encourage more use of buses but as usual they miss the point completely.

It's not entirely about getting more passengers to use public transport, but also about improving the air quality in the city centre area.

[fleetline6477]

In the back of my mind is a Birmingham Park & Ride operated by Midland Red West Talbot Pullman minibuses in the Centro Quickstep livery. It may only have been in the run up to Christmas, it ran into the bottom end of Hight Street just up from where the 50 terminated. Anybody remember this?

Park & Rides did operate in Woliverhampton in the run up to Christmas for several years.

[andy]

The emission zone approach is lazy policy by politicians who have never set foot on public transport. They think that placing what is no more than an age restriction on vehicles will encourage more use of buses but as usual they miss the point completely.

It's not entirely about getting more passengers to use public transport, but also about improving the air quality in the city centre area.

Well whichever way you look at it this area is way behind and regarding Park and Ride the lack of thinking around that and other potential innovations is startling, the point I was trying to make is that an emissions policy by itself is pretty useless if you are doing nothing to get motorists out of their cars thereby reducing the amount of vehicles on the road creating these emissions in the first place.

[Roy]

In the Centro area, there are about 5,000 free park and ride parking spaces.  It just happens that these are at railway and metro stations and provide frequent quick services into Birmingham City Centre (as well as other major centres in the Centro area).

Therefore, I don't think that Centro is behind other areas, where park and ride means catching buses that get snarled up with the rest of the traffic heading into a city centre. 

[fleetline6477]

I also seem to remember that Zak's advertised a Park & Ride from thier Shady Lane depot by 52A into Birmingham.

[andy]

In the Centro area, there are about 5,000 free park and ride parking spaces.  It just happens that these are at railway and metro stations and provide frequent quick services into Birmingham City Centre (as well as other major centres in the Centro area).

Therefore, I don't think that Centro is behind other areas, where park and ride means catching buses that get snarled up with the rest of the traffic heading into a city centre.

Sorry but I disagree. This is not a coordinated attempt at Park and Ride atall, it is just a bi product of existing car parks at stations, many of which are always full and in very inaccesible places by car with lots of traffic and congested side streets. A proper scheme with designated facilities and proper promotion is the sort of thing that will stop people taking their cars into town, not a few signs directing them to their local station where there may or may not be a space and the train will probably have been cancelled!

[Tony]

In the Centro area, there are about 5,000 free park and ride parking spaces.  It just happens that these are at railway and metro stations and provide frequent quick services into Birmingham City Centre (as well as other major centres in the Centro area).

Therefore, I don't think that Centro is behind other areas, where park and ride means catching buses that get snarled up with the rest of the traffic heading into a city centre.

Sorry but I disagree. This is not a coordinated attempt at Park and Ride atall, it is just a bi product of existing car parks at stations, many of which are always full and in very inaccesible places by car with lots of traffic and congested side streets. A proper scheme with designated facilities and proper promotion is the sort of thing that will stop people taking their cars into town, not a few signs directing them to their local station where there may or may not be a space and the train will probably have been cancelled!

Depends where you are referring to. Hawthorns and Wednesbury Parkway are good new park & ride sites. Acocks Green is a large site built by Centro. Cradley Heath is another good one.

Others like Marston Green and Coseley will never be adequate

[andy]

In the Centro area, there are about 5,000 free park and ride parking spaces.  It just happens that these are at railway and metro stations and provide frequent quick services into Birmingham City Centre (as well as other major centres in the Centro area).

Therefore, I don't think that Centro is behind other areas, where park and ride means catching buses that get snarled up with the rest of the traffic heading into a city centre.

Sorry but I disagree. This is not a coordinated attempt at Park and Ride atall, it is just a bi product of existing car parks at stations, many of which are always full and in very inaccesible places by car with lots of traffic and congested side streets. A proper scheme with designated facilities and proper promotion is the sort of thing that will stop people taking their cars into town, not a few signs directing them to their local station where there may or may not be a space and the train will probably have been cancelled!

Depends where you are referring to. Hawthorns and Wednesbury Parkway are good new park & ride sites. Acocks Green is a large site built by Centro. Cradley Heath is another good one.

Others like Marston Green and Coseley will never be adequate

Fair enough but it's the psychological factor you have to conquer to shift people's mindset. If you're going to get someone to change their habits you have to offer something with no risk and minimum hassle.

If you go to Oxford or even Coventry you know you will get straight into the car park seemlessly without hunting for a space, you know it's secure, and you know there will probably be a bus waiting for you to take you into town and probably within minutes of the time you choose to return.  By trying to utilise trains, first there is the risk that you won't get a space or it will be difficult to get one (and that alone will put most off) then in many cases, like Acocks Green, there is only a train every 20 minutes...it doesn't sound a long time, but if you just miss one that's 15 minutes of sitting around, and as we know trains can be unreliable and overcrowded. All these factors combined will cause people to think again about risking it.

We can't just keep bolting things on to other things and paying lip service, sooner or later we have to be bold and innovative and take some gambles to really get inside people's minds....we don't help ourselves with ridiculous schemes like having 6 bus interchanges in windy exposed streets with inadequate facilities in far flung outposts of the city centre, and then somehow trying to make out that we are doing people a favour by getting them to walk from one side of the city to the other...a well intentioned thought, but people just won't do it in the middle of a November monsoon. All so a tram that about 0.5% of the travelling public can actually use can run an extra quarter of a mile into the city.

Rant over (for now).

[Steveminor]

The city centre interchange scheme is actually putting people off travelling into the City Centre. On several occasions when giving people directions which includes changing buses in the City, they ask if there is any other way around, with most choosing to change 3 times by using the outer circle.
What does it say about the City Centre when people would much rather rely on the 11

[Justin Tyme]

Fair enough but it's the psychological factor you have to conquer to shift people's mindset. If you're going to get someone to change their habits you have to offer something with no risk and minimum hassle.

If you go to Oxford or even Coventry you know you will get straight into the car park seemlessly without hunting for a space, you know it's secure, and you know there will probably be a bus waiting for you to take you into town and probably within minutes of the time you choose to return.  By trying to utilise trains, first there is the risk that you won't get a space or it will be difficult to get one (and that alone will put most off) then in many cases, like Acocks Green, there is only a train every 20 minutes...it doesn't sound a long time, but if you just miss one that's 15 minutes of sitting around, and as we know trains can be unreliable and overcrowded. All these factors combined will cause people to think again about risking it.

We can't just keep bolting things on to other things and paying lip service, sooner or later we have to be bold and innovative and take some gambles to really get inside people's minds....we don't help ourselves with ridiculous schemes like having 6 bus interchanges in windy exposed streets with inadequate facilities in far flung outposts of the city centre, and then somehow trying to make out that we are doing people a favour by getting them to walk from one side of the city to the other...a well intentioned thought, but people just won't do it in the middle of a November monsoon. All so a tram that about 0.5% of the travelling public can actually use can run an extra quarter of a mile into the city.

Rant over (for now).

The most successful park & rides by bus seem to be in places where (a) there is little town centre car parking or it is very expensive, and (b) the bus element of the journey is reasonably quick.  Oxford scores on both counts - parking is notoriously difficult and there are long bus lanes.  Birmingham doesn't, although to be fair I don't think Manchester, Liverpool or Sheffield have bus P&R schemes either.

If it's going to work in Birmingham, there certainly would need to be some very courageous decisions, such as long bus lanes or busways that get buses into the city (and back) more quickly than by car, and perhaps increase city centre parking charges as well.  Until this happens, trains and the tram are the best options.  Don't forget that West Midlands PTE improved local train services and station car parking from the 1970s very much with Park & Ride in mind.