Help with old photos

[richardjones210368]

The Ailsas all were operated by WMT with the exception of the three prototypes. However by that time they were all at Perry Barr. Some even received a Metrobus style livery. They were withdrawn and sold in 1987.

No Alisa were operated by West Midlands Travel Limited all were retained by the WMPTE after 26th October 1986 and disposed off by the authority although held at Perry Barr prior to sale as at that time West Midlands Travel Ltd was owned by WMPTE.

[Gareth]

No Alisa were operated by West Midlands Travel Limited all were retained by the WMPTE after 26th October 1986 and disposed off by the authority although held at Perry Barr prior to sale as at that time West Midlands Travel Ltd was owned by WMPTE.

All 50 operated from Perry Barr until 1987. In service.

[richardjones210368]

All 50 operated from Perry Barr until 1987. In service.

The buses retained the ownership of the WMPTE and were disposed of by the authority but yes they were operated on hire to West Midlands Travel Ltd until 1987 if thats what you mean from Perry Barr by which time a number were in Metrobus livery as repainted by WMPTE and the October 1986 West Midlands Travel vinyals were applied but none were owned and operated by West Midlands Travel Limited only on.hire if that clarifies my piont.

[Gareth]

The buses retained the ownership of the WMPTE and were disposed of by the authority but yes they were operated on hire to West Midlands Travel Ltd until 1987 if thats what you mean from Perry Barr by which time a number were in Metrobus livery as repainted by WMPTE and the 1986 West Midlands Travel vinyals were applied.

On hire or not, they were operated by West Midlands Travel. If you're only going by ownership, then West Midlands Travel still did own Ailsas, but 4770 and 4773 were never used in service when they joined the company after Tame Valley was purchased.

[richardjones210368]

On hire or not, they were operated by West Midlands Travel. If you're only going by ownership, then West Midlands Travel still did own Ailsas, but 4770 and 4773 were never used in service when they joined the company after Tame Valley was purchased.

I think as an accountant I am looking at it from asset ownership concept @Gareth as WMT was an arms length limited company from 26/10/86 and as the buses were owned by WMPTE and WMPTE  owned WMT LTD and not part of the asset transfer to WMT LTD  then to me they were owned and operated by WMPTE & not WMT its only a technical thing but I fully agree with you most were still on the road untill thier sale in 1987 by the WMPTE. They had to be withdrawn shortly after 26/1/87 as full deregulation took place after this date and the buses would have had to become an asset of WMT LTD.I think we are in total agreement that they carried on untill 1987 but looking at it from different angles to be fair of who owned and operated what!

Thanks to Fleetline119 for this wonderfull footage:

[Tony]

I think as an accountant I am looking at it from asset ownership concept @Gareth as WMT was an arms length limited company from 26/10/86 and as the buses were owned by WMPTE and WMPTE  owned WMT LTD and not part of the asset transfer to WMT LTD  then to me they were owned and operated by WMPTE & not WMT its only a technical thing but I fully agree with you most were still on the road untill thier sale in 1987 by the WMPTE. They had to be withdrawn shortly after 26/1/87 as full deregulation took place after this date and the buses would have had to become an asset of WMT LTD.I think we are in total agreement that they carried on untill 1987 but looking at it from different angles to be fair of who owned and operated what!

Thanks to Fleetline119 for this wonderfull footage:

Ownership of all of 4738-87 passed to West Midlands Travel Limited. It was a close call on whether they or 2911-60 were the 50 Timesavers.

[richardjones210368]

Ownership of all of 4738-87 passed to West Midlands Travel Limited. It was a close call on whether they or 2911-60 were the 50 Timesavers.

Ok @Tony  but they were only owned technically on paper by WMT Ltd as it was 100% owned by the WMPTE the Timesaver decision was pivitol in thier future thier sale was restated in the first WMT accounts and the proceeds of the profits on the disposal and the procceds of the sales went back to WMPTE in any form of dividend paid if you want to split hairs the assets of  WMT LTD  were then owned by WMPTE. For younger posters untill sold to its management WMPTE wholly owned West Midlands Travel Limited therefore the assets of West Midlands Travel Limited were owned by WMPTE and any profit on any sales was returned to the authority in the form of any dividend  therefore the buses were always owned by WMPTE who were the only shareholder only assets still owned by WMT after the sale to its management were actually owned by WMT LTD. My original point was buses held by WMT LTD at the time of sale became the wholly owned asset of the private company after sale to its management any disposals previous to this the bus or asset was owned by the WMPTE who were the 100% shareholder of West Midlands Travel Ltd therefore the owners of the Ailsas were WMPTE as they were disposed of before the company was sold to its management.

[Gareth]

West Midlands Travel Limited was still a company. The buses were owned by West Midlands Travel Limited. The buses were operated by West Midlands Travel Limited.

You really should take off your 'accountant' hat sometimes.

[richardjones210368]

West Midlands Travel Limited was still a company. The buses were owned by West Midlands Travel Limited. The buses were operated by West Midlands Travel Limited.

You really should take off your 'accountant' hat sometimes.

A company is owned by its shareholders under The Companies Act 1985 under which West Midlands Travel Limited was incorporated the only shareholder at the time was the West Midlands Passenger Transport Exceutive therefore the assets of the company West Midlands Travel Limited ; its buses ; were owned by WMPTE which I said in my orginal post they only became the ownership of West Midlands Travel Ltd when its shareholders changed which was on sale to its management therefore I stand by my post the Ailisas were always owned by WMPTE

[Tony]

A company is owned by its shareholders under The Companies Act 1986 under which West Midlands Travel Limited was incorporated the only shareholder at the time was the West Midlands Passenger Transport Exceutive therefore the assets of the company West Midlands Travel Limited ; its buses ; were owned by WMPTE which I said in my orginal post they only became the ownership of West Midlands Travel Ltd when its shareholders changed which was on sale to its management therefore I stand by my post the Ailisas were always owned by WMPTE

WMPTE wasn't the owner of West Midlands Travel as under the Transport Act PTEs were not allowed to operate buses. West Midlands Passenger Transport Authority was the shareholder until the management buy out.

[richardjones210368]

WMPTE wasn't the owner of West Midlands Travel as under the Transport Act PTEs were not allowed to operate buses. West Midlands Passenger Transport Authority was the shareholder until the management buy out

Ok I agree it was the WMPTA that was the main shareholder therefore the WMPTA was the authority that controllled the WMPTE  & as the main shareholdèr owned the Ailsas as the main shareholder in West Midlands Travel Limited but that is a very technical point to be fair as the WMPTA from 1969 to 1974 and then after the cessation of  The West Midlands County Council always controlled the WMPTE.

Mind you @Tony did you know Travel West Midlands Limited may be struck off by Companies House and its assets handed to the Crown as its CS01 is overdue?

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00775806

[Tony]

No great loss, as you can see from your link ot is a non trading company with no assetts

[richardjones210368]

No great loss, as you can see from your link ot is a non trading company with no assetts

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/confirmation-statement-guidance
I think @Tony you will find it is rather more serious than your comments.

From the GOV.UK website:
"If you do not file your statement within 14 days of the end of your review period, your company and its officers may be prosecuted"