Petition to get Diamond out of Redditch

[StourportSam]

Sorry I think you are very misleading with that statement - the changes that are happening in Worcester are to do with routes that clearly cannot support a commercial service at current levels, at least First have tried with these services. If a route doesn't pay, it will inevitably get cut - yes it is unfortunate for passengers but clearly not enough of them actually use the bus in the first place. My own view is that First doesn't take enough risks with new routes but ultimately, its not my money at stake.
First were far from great in Redditch but the problems mainly came BECAUSE of the competition from Diamond meaning investment wasn't made as there wasn't the profit margin to justify it. Diamond now have a monopoly and NO COMPETITION yet still have created the situation they have now, and things clearly are no better overall.
As for saying significant investment has been made, that is a joke, yes a few new buses have come in but how many clapped out Darts are still around the area? I see the Darts come into Worcester regularly and passenger comments in this area are not complimentary towards that company even with only a few services in the city. They have had 3 years to get their act together yet these problems still exist.
The fact is if any large operator moved into Redditch, Diamond would be gone within months - however, it doesn't seem like anyone else thinks the area is worth a punt so passengers will just have to have accept the current situation and learn to love Diamond, or walk!

Several million pounds is a large investment.

Many of the older Darts have been or are being withdrawn. The oldest bus will be 2001 soon across the Diamond Fleet, once movements are complete as reported on this forum. First have a lot of 2003 Solos running about - some of which look very tired.

It could be argued First have a near monopoly in Worcester and still are not able to make it work hence the cuts... I suppose something has to pay for all those new buses!

[PM]

Several million pounds is a large investment.

Many of the older Darts have been or are being withdrawn. The oldest bus will be 2001 soon across the Diamond Fleet, once movements are complete as reported on this forum. First have a lot of 2003 Solos running about - some of which look very tired.

It could be argued First have a near monopoly in Worcester and still are not able to make it work hence the cuts... I suppose something has to pay for all those new buses!

I'd struggle to name an area in Worcestershire Diamond have left completely cut off since taking over, services have generally been expanded and enhanced plus simplified. Generally I think the upcoming Worcester changes are generally positive in massively simplifying an overly complex network. However, they won't be especially popular. The fleet age at Redditch will be lower than that at Worcester with proportionally greater investment being put in by Rotala than by First.

The First Midland Red rot set in far before Rotala even came into existence, ground was lost in Kidderminster to Whittle's who in turn diverted resources out of Shropshire into Kidderminster.

Look back to 1997/8, Shropshire work shut and lost, not to Diamond, then virtually all of the WM work/Digbeth was lost, not to Diamond. They lost the viable Bromsgrove work, not to Diamond. Evesham work was cut and the depot shut, not to Diamond. Then Hereford has since been shut, Diamond nowhere to be seen.

It's wrong to link FMR's problems with Diamond, it's only one of the garages that was lost due to Diamond action. Digbeth/Hereford/Evesham/Kidderminster had little/no Diamond presence.

Diamond spotted what looked like a struggling FMR by 2008 and jumped into Redditch, who can blame them. I think it's lucky for First that bus station issues restricted competition in Worcester so Diamond couldn't make a success of it.

Looking at the FMR Redditch/Kidderminster fleets, there were P plate Darts, Lances, Olympians, CityBuses all well past their best. Kidderminster's newest bus was 8 years old at the time of the sale and only three of them, it'll have 7 year old full size single deck buses soon, quite a turnaround with a larger PVR. Redditch's fleet is significantly newer than under First as well!!

[j789]

I'd struggle to name an area in Worcestershire Diamond have left completely cut off since taking over, services have generally been expanded and enhanced plus simplified. Generally I think the upcoming Worcester changes are generally positive in massively simplifying an overly complex network. However, they won't be especially popular. The fleet age at Redditch will be lower than that at Worcester with proportionally greater investment being put in by Rotala than by First.

The First Midland Red rot set in far before Rotala even came into existence, ground was lost in Kidderminster to Whittle's who in turn diverted resources out of Shropshire into Kidderminster.

Look back to 1997/8, Shropshire work shut and lost, not to Diamond, then virtually all of the WM work/Digbeth was lost, not to Diamond. They lost the viable Bromsgrove work, not to Diamond. Evesham work was cut and the depot shut, not to Diamond. Then Hereford has since been shut, Diamond nowhere to be seen.

It's wrong to link FMR's problems with Diamond, it's only one of the garages that was lost due to Diamond action. Digbeth/Hereford/Evesham/Kidderminster had little/no Diamond presence.

Diamond spotted what looked like a struggling FMR by 2008 and jumped into Redditch, who can blame them. I think it's lucky for First that bus station issues restricted competition in Worcester so Diamond couldn't make a success of it.

Looking at the FMR Redditch/Kidderminster fleets, there were P plate Darts, Lances, Olympians, CityBuses all well past their best. Kidderminster's newest bus was 8 years old at the time of the sale and only three of them, it'll have 7 year old full size single deck buses soon, quite a turnaround with a larger PVR. Redditch's fleet is significantly newer than under First as well!!

Whilst you make some comments I agree with, I do think some of your viewpoints are incorrect. Worcester and Redditch were the two jewels in Midland Red West - Hereford was never massively profitable because it was opened up to competition very early on as one of the trial areas before deregulation so competition was always an issue. Kidderminster likewise is not a massively profitable area and your are correct, when Whittle moved in it made it even less so. However, as I said the 2 big areas were Redditch and Worcester. Worcester has been protected and thes ervice level has Improved generally - never before did Malvern have a bus link every 10 minutes, The 35 has been massively increased too over recent years. Less the longer cross county routes have gone which is a shame from a driver's point of view as well as passengers, but the routes in Worcester that have been changed have gone because of lack of use. Worcester council has always seemed very anti - bus and investment has not been made.
To compare the fleets is misleading to, as Worcester is double the size of Redditch garage. also, the new vehicles that have come in to Worcester have reduced the age of the fleet. Most importantly though, the older buses First have like the Enviro 300s are far superior (and clearly have been well maintained over the years) to equivalent Diamond buses (Darts/ Volvos etc). The 58 reg Volvos do not look in good condition at all, yet are 4 years newer than Worcester's Enviros, so comparing fleet ages is not always an accurate reflection of the quality of a fleet.
Another point I would disagree on is that Bus Station issues were not the problem wioth Diamond in Worcester, it was their failure to operate contracted services reliably (how must lost milage must there have been travelling to Redditch (or Droitwich when that was open)- why did the council remove the services and give them back to First and LMS? Also, as a driver who experienced their antics first hand, I maintain that the travelling public of Worcester got off lucky when Diamond moved out.
I am not anti - Diamond (despite my concerns about them) but I will stand up for my employer when incorrect information is stated. Worcester has its fair share of moaners in passenger terms but I guarantee any passenger who has experienced the current situations in Worcester and Redditch would chose First every time.

[PM]

Worcester is a larger depot, if you compare percentage of vehicles replaced as a proportion of fleet strength, Diamond's 8 StreetLites is proportionally more than First's recent StreetLites and StreetDecks as a proportion of the fleet. I agree Worcester city has a good network, although with higher fares to match and services that run nowhere near as late as might be expected.

It's worth also remembering that Redditch was far closer to the size of Worcester garage before First cut back and Pete's therefore spotted an opportunity. Plus the fact First vacated a ready to use bus depot!

I do agree fleet age isn't everything and the E300's are still very nice buses. Some of the ones put into Potteries have never been repainted since new which you wouldn't find on similar aged Diamond buses.

Bus station issues were a huge issue for Diamond which prevented them from operating some of the routes they actually wanted to operate that would have performed better. Coincidence that the 35 stand was too busy and a cheap ticket was made available on the service so Diamond were left to compete on the likes of the 31.

I believe it was Diamond who chucked in most of the WCC "country" tendered routes due to loadings being lower than anticipated, not the other way around.

As it was, Diamond trialled bargain bus fares for Worcester, later services with 100% lowfloor buses at a time when First were still running Lance Verdes.

[j789]

Worcester is a larger depot, if you compare percentage of vehicles replaced as a proportion of fleet strength, Diamond's 8 StreetLites is proportionally more than First's recent StreetLites and StreetDecks as a proportion of the fleet. I agree Worcester city has a good network, although with higher fares to match and services that run nowhere near as late as might be expected.

It's worth also remembering that Redditch was far closer to the size of Worcester garage before First cut back and Pete's therefore spotted an opportunity. Plus the fact First vacated a ready to use bus depot!

I do agree fleet age isn't everything and the E300's are still very nice buses. Some of the ones put into Potteries have never been repainted since new which you wouldn't find on similar aged Diamond buses.

Bus station issues were a huge issue for Diamond which prevented them from operating some of the routes they actually wanted to operate that would have performed better. Coincidence that the 35 stand was too busy and a cheap ticket was made available on the service so Diamond were left to compete on the likes of the 31.

I believe it was Diamond who chucked in most of the WCC "country" tendered routes due to loadings being lower than anticipated, not the other way around.

As it was, Diamond trialled bargain bus fares for Worcester, later services with 100% lowfloor buses at a time when First were still running Lance Verdes.

A couple of points, Diamond didn't compete on the 31, they ran the subsidised 31A/C services until they were given back to first. Also, the question about the 35 stand - have you seen the stand in Crowngate? Even now you often get buses unable to get to the stand because there is a 33/34 on the stand behind and another 35 on the stand. Having extra buses there would have been dangerous. Seeing the way the 30 stand got congested with 3 or 4 buses was ridiculous. Thye one thing that First did in Worcester which didn't happen in Redditch was they fought back against Diamond and it was Diamond who retreated. Diamond came in initially with very low fares on the 30, and got a lot of custom but as soon as First dropped those fares the vast majority of passengers came back to First. I know because I was driving the route, passengers would let the Diamond go past and get First and it was obvious that there was no money to be made for them on that route. Diamond also cocked up the 144 route, running various versions including the whole length route which lasted about 2 weeks - hardly passenger friendly.
As for the Country tenders being chucked in, the council paid a set subsidy no matter how many passengers they carried so that should not be an issue. perhaps the issue was that they were not allowed to charge an additional 50p for First passes on the evening services, which they initially tried to do.
The obsession with bargain fares is somewhat odd, do think cheap fares = lots of investment and new buses because I certainly don't. Cheap = cutting corners. The adult fares in Worcester are not particularly expensive, particularly if day tickets/ returns are used (child fares are I agree on the high side though).
The thing with Redditch though is if you take away the Matchborough routes, the rest of the routes are not particularly busy so no wonder First had to cut routes as it was not viable to run 60 or 70 buses in Redditch.

[PM]

The Henwick Park/Monarch Drive part of the 31 was commercial though, Diamond really tried to attract students onto that service with the later evening journeys. I still think Worcester could support some later buses, it's a very nice city indeed with good evening activities for people to do with a resident student population. Diamond's attempt to do that must at least be applauded.

I agree about the busy-ness and also unsuitability of Crowngate. The fact remains though that in owning the bus station, First did have a competitive weapon they could use to potentially block competing services they didn't want launching on the grounds the stands were too busy. They could never do this in Redditch and were never given the same notice of competitor's advance plans as was necessary in Worcester in order to book the slots. That undoubtedly gave First a competitive advantage and a chance to respond before Diamond's launch.

I think Diamond's main problem was the lack of network, in Redditch they build up, with the supported routes, 51/55/56/57/58/70 pretty much all of the town routes, in Worcester they could never have the same presence to get custom.

The 144 did seem to go wrong for Diamond, I totally agree, 64 becomes 144, extended to Worcester at peaks for commuter journeys (I'd expect majority would catch the train anyway), then shortened to Rubery. All in all, Go West Midlands' 64 seemed busier.

The cheap fares thing really is interesting though. First Worcester's fares are probably industry average for a small city, Diamond Redditch's and even Kidderminster are amongst the cheapest in the industry. My preferred approach is keep costs as low as possible with fares as low as possible to attract real modal shift and keep usage higher. Ie more people paying less money as opposed to less people paying more money. I'd say Stagecoach have been more ruthless with costings than First and until the post 2012 First management kept fares generally lower which has ensured longer term viability as opposed to shorter term higher profitability (look at First's margins in the early noughties) vs Stagecoach but the tide has now turned in favour of Stagecoach's longer term approach.

Generally speaking though fares look like this:

Redditch Day: £2.20
Worcester Day: £4.00

Redditch Week: £8.50 or £8.00 on app/PayZone
Worcester Week: £13.00

Redditch Month: £31.00 or £30.00 on app/PayZone
Worcester Month: (no specific ticket bizarrely) Worcester Plus £47.50

I'm playing devil's advocate in places, I really do think First Worcester are a very good operator and Worcester and Redditch are very different places to compare.

Fares of course take into account demand/local wages/service provision but I'm sure Diamond Redditch could have a load more shiny new buses if it was charging comparable fares to Worcester, I reckon always better to keep fares as low as possible, that's the real thing passengers are most conscious about.

[j789]

I agree with a lot of the points you make there DiamondDart but I think the issue with low fares in Redditch is a consequence of the competition and something that Diamond could not really change now without a massive loss of patronage. I would think Diamond would have similar fares in Redditch to First's in Worcester if they were viable, but after years of low fares (£1 singles/ day tickets etc) they couldn't just hike the fare by 300%. I believe that if Diamond stick around for a few more years there, the fares will slowly edge up towards First's fares. If you take the 57/58 out of the equation, there cannot be a huge profit on other routes charging those fares. I have no idea how much Redditch contributes to Rotala each year but if I was a shareholder I would want the company maximising profits wherever possible and I think Redditch would be an obvious target for fare hikes. I just can't see those fares staying low in the long term unless another competitor moves in.
I think £4 for a city day ticket is acceptable and the Wyvern day ticket represents good value overall but I do acknowledge some single fares are expensive. However, from a driver's point of view the situation is much simpler now than perhaps 15 years ago when each route had many fare stages with different fares to each. You definitely required a fare table in those days!!!

Night services just do not seem to work in Worcester, I think perhaps the city is just a bit too small to have viable services but perhaps with the expansion of the uni, there will be scope in the future.

[PM]

I agree with a lot of the points you make there DiamondDart but I think the issue with low fares in Redditch is a consequence of the competition and something that Diamond could not really change now without a massive loss of patronage. I would think Diamond would have similar fares in Redditch to First's in Worcester if they were viable, but after years of low fares (£1 singles/ day tickets etc) they couldn't just hike the fare by 300%. I believe that if Diamond stick around for a few more years there, the fares will slowly edge up towards First's fares. If you take the 57/58 out of the equation, there cannot be a huge profit on other routes charging those fares. I have no idea how much Redditch contributes to Rotala each year but if I was a shareholder I would want the company maximising profits wherever possible and I think Redditch would be an obvious target for fare hikes. I just can't see those fares staying low in the long term unless another competitor moves in.
I think £4 for a city day ticket is acceptable and the Wyvern day ticket represents good value overall but I do acknowledge some single fares are expensive. However, from a driver's point of view the situation is much simpler now than perhaps 15 years ago when each route had many fare stages with different fares to each. You definitely required a fare table in those days!!!

Night services just do not seem to work in Worcester, I think perhaps the city is just a bit too small to have viable services but perhaps with the expansion of the uni, there will be scope in the future.

I totally agree, a result of initially the Pete's Travel competition then Diamond under Go Ahead and Rotala. I think those low fares over the past 10 years mean people are simply not used to paying a lot for the bus so any hike will be unpopular as fares didn't rise at all for the best part of 10 years. It's also quite a price sensitive customer base vs Worcester, generally speaking of course. Saying that, how many people that would have bought a car/travelled less have been kept on the bus simply because it's just such good value in Redditch and that can only be seen as a good thing.

The Wyvern ticket is good value although the network it can be used on is reduced, unfortunately single fares across the country seem proportionally more expensive but I think rewarding loyalty is important, plus of course the impact of Concessionary Travel which forces non season tickets up to ensure remuneration at a viable amount. First have pushed season tickets across the board, with the "Still buying singles?" strapline in some areas.

The FMR fares did seem to get incredibly complicated, there were numerous ReddiTicket's available, 6/7 combinations in all wasn't it, plus Shuttle Cards and the like! I think generally passengers prefer simplicity ie a local ticket and a ticket for the whole company for travelling further afield, and that's what First/Diamond offer.

I reckon in particular the 144 Centro area fares are incredibly good value!

It's a pity about the night services, Worcester is a really nice city that does have more evening leisure activities, unlike Kidderminster, and it's safer, unlike Redditch. I really do think that a promoted 31 to the University and maybe combined cross city 30/35 night service could work well

[j789]

I totally agree, a result of initially the Pete's Travel competition then Diamond under Go Ahead and Rotala. I think those low fares over the past 10 years mean people are simply not used to paying a lot for the bus so any hike will be unpopular as fares didn't rise at all for the best part of 10 years. It's also quite a price sensitive customer base vs Worcester, generally speaking of course. Saying that, how many people that would have bought a car/travelled less have been kept on the bus simply because it's just such good value in Redditch and that can only be seen as a good thing.

It's a pity about the night services, Worcester is a really nice city that does have more evening leisure activities, unlike Kidderminster, and it's safer, unlike Redditch. I really do think that a promoted 31 to the University and maybe combined cross city 30/35 night service could work well

Your first point about attracting car users with low fares is a good one which is why I am so disappointed with the way Diamond has handled the situation there. It had a great chance to attract lots of new passengers with good value travel, but all this negative publicity, especially over the last year, must surely mean that any potential new passengers will see this and just not bother with the bus. They should have really pushed the low fares but equally ensured they had the structure in place to keep things reliable at all times which sadly has resulted in problems in Redditch. it is clear that some of the publicity isn't deserved but there have been too many instances where standards have not been kept. I hope they can sort it out, it would be good for Worcestershire as a whole to have a better bus network, and perhaps the new investment will begin this process.

As for the night bus, the problem with the 31 is that even if there was a need from students, due to the long uni holidays the route would become not viable during those times and I think would lead to much confusion if it was a term time only route. The 30/35 might be more likely but I don't think there would be many drivers willing to drive night services, its hard enough getting full numbers to drive daytime services!

[winston]

The tone of the articles appear to be getting more positive:
http://redditchstandard.co.uk/news/redditch-mp-meets-diamond-bus-following-schoolgirls-complaint/

Extract from article:

The operations director said Diamond is also on the lookout for more Redditch-based drivers and a DVSA (Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency) inspection of the fleet found Diamond's engineering standards to be satisfactory.