How can Manchester build........

[wulfrun]

Sorry I totally disagree.

I think Centro is TOO tram orientated and that's why nothing gets done. Stopping more deserving projects from being developed to safe guard Metro development.

Greater Manchester's network use former rail lines. What rail lines can be converted here? They are all important strategic rail lines. EVEN LINE ONE!  >:(

Centro's Local Transport Plan 3 is all about linking communities, building new transport links to help kick-start to local economy.

I don't want trams running between Stourbridge and Wednesbury, I want a proper rail service linking Worcester, Stourbridge, Dudley, Walsall, Lichfield and Derby, with good easy connections at Dudley Port and Wednesbury Parkway. Don't forget it is also a useful freight route too.

If Line One was replaced with heavy rail just think of the benefits this 12.6miles of rail line would be to our existing 106 route miles of NWM railway lines. Much quicker times to West Bromwich  and far far far more destinations.

West Bromwich, Wednesbury, Wolverhampton, Telford and Shrewsbury all get a new connection to London Marylebone. Excellent for business communities in Salop/Wolverhampton/Black Country wanting a quick direct service to Moor Street & HS2 to Paris/Brussels and Frankfurt.

• Better competition for services to London at Wolverhampton - keeping prices down.
  
• New local services from Wolverhampton High Level, Priestfield, Bilston Central, Loxdale, Wednesbury Parkway High Level, Dudley Street - Guns Village, West Bromwich Central, The Hawthorns, Soho & Winson Green, Jewellery Quarter, Birmingham Snow Hill to Dorridge/Wythall, Shrewsbury to Leamington/Stratford.
  
• Cross Country services from Manchester via Wednesbury, Snow Hill and on to Reading.

Why do I have to go to Birmingham or Smethwick to get to Worcester? With a spur linking Didcot & Chester to South Staffs at Wednesbury (where tram shed is), through services from Wolverhampton to Worcester (OWWR) can be reinstated.  It also means you can get to Stourbridge from Wolverhampton in the same time the 256 Bus is passing Himley. e.g. Half the time.

And DON'T FORGET FREIGHT. Steel traffic from South Wales having a direct path through the Black Country plateau. And container traffic too via Snow Hill. Why does everything have to be unloaded at Landor Street & shipped by congested roads?

Surly replacing Line One with a proper railway line is far more beneficial to our local economy than a crappy localised LRT system?

Line One should have been built down the Birmingham New Road - replacing the 126.

So come on Metro lovers – convince me, why should we waste money on Midland Metro?

[Kevin]

All valid details, and as you've asked here are my arguements for trams, feel free to shoot me down on any of them....

1) they are more local (ie, more stops closer together) and yet still quicker than bus

2) they are a lot more frequent than trains

3) they have the scope to go more places than rail can, ie along trunk roads such as the Coventry / Bristol / Hagley roads

4) the wolves - walsall and walsall - wednesbury proposals are along old lines that wouldn't be much use reopened as heavy rail (as there already are better options)

5) I may be biased because "all trains in the midlands go to birmingham" is all I've ever known, but that is the way I see the train network as being, I see tram lines as opportunites to link all the various towns / villages / etc, espcecially in an area such as the Black Country

[Isle of Stroma]

Sorry I totally disagree.

I think Centro is TOO tram orientated

So come on Metro lovers – convince me, why should we waste money on Midland Metro?

Bloody hell! it's rare to find such sense being spoken on here. Well done mate for spotting the bigger picture, there's hope for the future yet!.  :) :)

[The Real 4778]

Sorry I totally disagree.

I think Centro is TOO tram orientated and that's why nothing gets done. Stopping more deserving projects from being developed to safe guard Metro development.

Greater Manchester's network use former rail lines. What rail lines can be converted here? They are all important strategic rail lines. EVEN LINE ONE!  >:(

Centro's Local Transport Plan 3 is all about linking communities, building new transport links to help kick-start to local economy.

I don't want trams running between Stourbridge and Wednesbury, I want a proper rail service linking Worcester, Stourbridge, Dudley, Walsall, Lichfield and Derby, with good easy connections at Dudley Port and Wednesbury Parkway. Don't forget it is also a useful freight route too.

If Line One was replaced with heavy rail just think of the benefits this 12.6miles of rail line would be to our existing 106 route miles of NWM railway lines. Much quicker times to West Bromwich  and far far far more destinations.

West Bromwich, Wednesbury, Wolverhampton, Telford and Shrewsbury all get a new connection to London Marylebone. Excellent for business communities in Salop/Wolverhampton/Black Country wanting a quick direct service to Moor Street & HS2 to Paris/Brussels and Frankfurt.

• Better competition for services to London at Wolverhampton - keeping prices down.
  
• New local services from Wolverhampton High Level, Priestfield, Bilston Central, Loxdale, Wednesbury Parkway High Level, Dudley Street - Guns Village, West Bromwich Central, The Hawthorns, Soho & Winson Green, Jewellery Quarter, Birmingham Snow Hill to Dorridge/Wythall, Shrewsbury to Leamington/Stratford.
  
• Cross Country services from Manchester via Wednesbury, Snow Hill and on to Reading.

Why do I have to go to Birmingham or Smethwick to get to Worcester? With a spur linking Didcot & Chester to South Staffs at Wednesbury (where tram shed is), through services from Wolverhampton to Worcester (OWWR) can be reinstated.  It also means you can get to Stourbridge from Wolverhampton in the same time the 256 Bus is passing Himley. e.g. Half the time.

And DON'T FORGET FREIGHT. Steel traffic from South Wales having a direct path through the Black Country plateau. And container traffic too via Snow Hill. Why does everything have to be unloaded at Landor Street & shipped by congested roads?

Surly replacing Line One with a proper railway line is far more beneficial to our local economy than a crappy localised LRT system?

What I said was that Centro, compared to other major cities, seems to have a much weaker voice when championing its system.  However, I didn't say that what Centro should be doing was campaigning to convert more heavy rail corridors to tram, and that is where we are in absolute agreement.

However, we must look at when Line One along the old Great Western was proposed - the scheme really got momentum in the second half of the Eighties.  This coincided with the stasis of British Rail's network - the Serpell plan was being considered - which if Maggie's mob had implemented it would have meant even more line closures.  Therefore, you must remember that Centro's rejuvenation of the line was the only show in town - no way would BR have been reopening it. 

I agree too that in hindsight, this interim, lightweight solution is probably the wrong one, and heavy rail should definitely connect West Brom to Snow Hill once more, however, we have now got problems at the Wolverhampton end which would mean connecting into the High Level lines - one for the longer term I think. 

Where I think we will see a return of heavy rail is along the Stourbridge - Dudley - Wednesbury - Walsall route, and hopefully back through Brwonhills and Lichfield to Burton and Derby.  Network Rail have this line on their strategic freight routes list, and it is perhaps this which is causing Centro difficulty in promoting the Merry Hill scheme effectively.  I personally think it would be madness to lose this, or any other heavy rail corroidors for that matter, to tram routes.

[dayvid]

Sorry I totally disagree.

I think Centro is TOO tram orientated and that's why nothing gets done. Stopping more deserving projects from being developed to safe guard Metro development.

Greater Manchester's network use former rail lines. What rail lines can be converted here? They are all important strategic rail lines. EVEN LINE ONE!  >:(

Centro's Local Transport Plan 3 is all about linking communities, building new transport links to help kick-start to local economy.

I don't want trams running between Stourbridge and Wednesbury, I want a proper rail service linking Worcester, Stourbridge, Dudley, Walsall, Lichfield and Derby, with good easy connections at Dudley Port and Wednesbury Parkway. Don't forget it is also a useful freight route too.

If Line One was replaced with heavy rail just think of the benefits this 12.6miles of rail line would be to our existing 106 route miles of NWM railway lines. Much quicker times to West Bromwich  and far far far more destinations.

West Bromwich, Wednesbury, Wolverhampton, Telford and Shrewsbury all get a new connection to London Marylebone. Excellent for business communities in Salop/Wolverhampton/Black Country wanting a quick direct service to Moor Street & HS2 to Paris/Brussels and Frankfurt.

• Better competition for services to London at Wolverhampton - keeping prices down.
  
• New local services from Wolverhampton High Level, Priestfield, Bilston Central, Loxdale, Wednesbury Parkway High Level, Dudley Street - Guns Village, West Bromwich Central, The Hawthorns, Soho & Winson Green, Jewellery Quarter, Birmingham Snow Hill to Dorridge/Wythall, Shrewsbury to Leamington/Stratford.
  
• Cross Country services from Manchester via Wednesbury, Snow Hill and on to Reading.

Why do I have to go to Birmingham or Smethwick to get to Worcester? With a spur linking Didcot & Chester to South Staffs at Wednesbury (where tram shed is), through services from Wolverhampton to Worcester (OWWR) can be reinstated.  It also means you can get to Stourbridge from Wolverhampton in the same time the 256 Bus is passing Himley. e.g. Half the time.

And DON'T FORGET FREIGHT. Steel traffic from South Wales having a direct path through the Black Country plateau. And container traffic too via Snow Hill. Why does everything have to be unloaded at Landor Street & shipped by congested roads?

Surly replacing Line One with a proper railway line is far more beneficial to our local economy than a crappy localised LRT system?

Line One should have been built down the Birmingham New Road - replacing the 126.

So come on Metro lovers – convince me, why should we waste money on Midland Metro?

Well said, trams for tram lines and trains for previous train routes.
Our trams should be trams with on road running. not dissused railtrack.

[Kevin]

Well said, trams for tram lines and trains for previous train routes.
Our trams should be trams with on road running. not dissused railtrack.

Ok, the plan for Walsall - Wolverhampton is along an old rail route, are you saying that trains should be reinstated along that route despite whichever company is currently responsible for putting a train service on the already existing route between the two failing miserably at doing so?