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To me, the easiest solution would be to ............................ cascade mercs to WB and PE to withdraw R and S reg mercs

This would seem a possibility given what's happening with B6LEs now. And the fleet age profile at WN will be very skewed towards newer vehicles after the hybrids arrive (nearly 70 vehicles 18 months old or less). This would be balanced by having 30 odd of the oldest vehicles (eg B6LE).

Also, is there also an issue funding refurbs at WN - most of the Mercs are the newer ones but in TWM livery - and that huge batch of Tridents in the 45xx to 46xx series is only part done - seems to make sense to move the newer Mercs elsewhere to replace the earlier ones.

Have all of these arrived now ?

Good question - and has anyone seen one any of the WB allocation yet?

It might not be exactly the same but whichever way you look at it it's an awful colour that does not go with red.

The branding is surely meant to stand out and be noticed (by passengers). Some bus branding is so subtle it looks like part of the livery and arguably is barely noticeable (eg some of Arriva's)

I think it looks excellent - presumably lower panels left clear for potential advertisements? The fornt makes it even clearer to intending passengers that a 99 is approaching (presuming it's on that route).

No doubt the BC ones will all be in service by 6th Jan. Anyone know the proposed allocations yet?

I wasn't a big fan of enviro 200's but these look great, much better than the hansons and arriva ones

The NXWM examples look quite plain from the photos I've seen, where as the Arriva E200s look far, far more interesting.

I think they look fine..........a Midibus at B37F? Wait until they've got their branding - that should liven the look up!

I think the Arriva colour scheme plus the silver light surround colours really suit these buses - but as I say, with the side branding etc, these E200s will look very smary and colourful.

[In terms of comfort, the Wright Eclipses' smash the Scania Omnilinks' out of the sky.]

In terms of comfort, the Wright Eclipses' smash the Scania Omnilinks' out of the sky. The 37 is a good example to see the difference as both vehicle types are used. The Wright Eclipses' offer a smooth ride and are more generous with legroom/headroom. Speed wise, they are capable of the same speed, although I'm guessing the ECU's on the Wright Eclipses are set up in a way that offers more miles per gallon, hence the lag of high revving, thus less pickup.

What you must be aware of is what the Eclipses' lack in speed, they make up for when the doors open and close.

Absolutely totally agree with this. As a passenger, that's all that's important for me and I note even some of the drivers take advantage of the comfort of the driver's seat- one of them looked so laid back he could have been 50Cent riding around in his pimp mobile. Yo.

I liked the Mercs though because they had a very logical layout and it seems that the Wrights have followed this pattern. It really simply works, whereas the Omnilinks look a little be all over the place. I have size XL legs, and I can assure you the Wrights 'Eclipse' the Omnilinks for comfort EVERY time.

The best single decked buses though? What were those ones that were used on the Black Diamond 9?... Proper nice with ace seats and really quiet running gear!!!

Which have exactly the same running gear / Chassis as the Urban Eclipse!

Lol - must be psycho-cematic - darker coloured vehicle = quieter!!  ;)

"Don,

1999-2004 is over a 5 year period as follows:

1999-2000 (1 year)
2000-2001 (2 years)
2001-2002 (3 years)
2002-2003 (4 years)
2003-2004 (5 years)"

Not wishing to bang on about this but the fact is the latter part of the 699 double deckers were delivered in the second half of 2004, with the last few in early 2005. To make this a bit clearer, assuming a 15 yr life, these would not be due for replacement until mid 2019 to early 2020. The earliest (1999-2000 vehicles) would fall due in 2014-2015.

However, there are variations (for instance around 130 vehicles were delivered in 2001), whilst there is overlap with some of the later Mercs and Presidents, and also the 20 odd Bendibuses with the double deckers. However, a maximum rate of replacement varying between 100 - 130 vehicles per annum over the next 7.5 to 8 yrs would maintain a max age of 15 yrs and an even profile across the fleet or thereabouts!

"The majority of NXWM's/NXD's double deck fleet date from 1999-2004, during that period including the initial Spectra's (4001 & 4002) makes a total intake of some 699 new double deckers, If those come due for replacement over a similar number of years, no less than 140 new double deckers would need to be delivered each and every year over a five year period. Obviously those 54 reg Tridents that have been/are to be re-engined will have extended lives but at present the order is for around 30. I suspect even if 2013 NX orders do turn out to be for the majority double deckers few if any double deckers would be replaced in favour of increasing the proportion of double deckers in the fleet and seeing off further older single deckers / increasing capacity on some routes"

Winston - this is correct except it's across six years (1999-2004), equating to 116.5 per annum. My guess is these won't fall due for replacement until 2014-5, after the 130 per annum required to replace the existing B10L, B6LE and Mercs (although no doubt there'll be an overlap).

I really hate those Scania single deckers (the one with the weird double seating arrangement behind the cab)... Big ups to the Wrights used on the 120!!!! They were the BEST replacement for the Mercs bar none.

I don't disagree with this - have you seen some of the London single deckers - seats dotted here there and everywhere (especially those used on the 507 - Citaros I think?). No doubt caused partially by the need to accomodate some of the standard TfL specs though.

TfL already funds all these, it is just at the moment they are included in the bid prices operators submit.

The London system is basically TfL pays all the costs of a route and takes all the revenue with the operator taking a risk that it has got its prices correct and taking a small profit for themselves. I see no difference whether TfL funds the costs of the vehicles up front or through bid prices

Yes I agree - however in this instance the public authority is taking all of the risk with vehicle costs, by specifying its own vehicle, which has been developed to meet a political, not a commercial imperative. I know what I'd think if I paid my council tax in London! I think it's a big risk. The bus does look distinctive and very smart, but then so does an Eclipse Gemini, Enviro 400 etc etc and barring the lack of an open rear door, I'm not too sure why these vehicles don't meet the implied needs of TfL.

And the new Wright / Volvo 'Streets Ahead' double decker.

Is that the nutty fruitcake Boris Johnson bus - allegedly TfL t place an order for 600 soon. Someone should do an FOI request to see how much public money has been expended on that (beyond the cost of buying normal buses) - looks like an updated 1963 Park Royal Fleetline body to me!!

The initial order for 8 was expensive because it included all the development and design costs. The production run should only cost about the same as other hybrid buses. After being able to have a close look at LT3 at the NEC this week I was well impressed with the general layout

The look is not bad (although they look extremely long), I would agree, but the big issue for me is what on earth was the point? I know there was a political imperative re open platform rear entrance buses, but at a time of austerity the idea that a publicly funded organisation should expend money on something as extravagent is extraordinary - nearly as bad as the Routemaster itself in the 50s.

One appears in the new James Bond film (as the equivalent of a film extra - parked in Whitehall)!!!

By buying the buses themselves and giving them to the winning bidder for the routes at a minimum rental will bring the costs of the tenders for the routes considerably as the operators will not have to include the price of the vehicles in the bid. Most operators put a high proportion of the cost of the vehicles into a 7 year tender bid because of the low resale price of ex London buses on the open market.
By guaranteeing a 15 year life for the NBFL, and getting economies of scale in the price by ordering 600 in one go it wouldn't surprise me if NBFL doesn't actually save money for TfL against standard bids using hybrid buses.

It's an interesting concept. I'm not sure how the economics stack up - TfL will have had to fund the purchase of the buses (thus indirectly adding a cost to the overall buses operation, if not an individual route or group of routes); I suspect the low resale value of normal London buses is caused by the volume involved and the quirkiness of TfL's specs and the need to build in 'standardisation' costs (removing the centre door etc etc) in order to sell them; someone will also have to fund the maintenance for overhauls/refurbs and depreciation costs of the LT - and there's no guarantee these vehicles will be reliable or even cost effective against normal vehicles in long term service - it all seems a bit strange for a publicly funded authority to be doing this. And to operate with the rear door in use requires a conductor/guard (thus increasing operating costs). It sounds like a massive gamble to me, and one wonders whether the arrangements in place are the only way it is possible to deliver what the mayor has promised.

The biggest worry is that back in the late 90s, a cursory glance at a GIS map of London plotting bus passenger injuries simply highlighted all the Routemaster routes - yes they were that dangerous in comparison (well everyone knew that, which is why the rest of the world moved away from open platforms decades before).

Some might say the whole thing is barking mad.

For bus enthusiasts it's great to have a new vehicle type to see - albeit in this case it looks a bit like an updated 60s bus body in concept (with those horrible deep upper panels and shallow upstairs windows - I read that this was a logic which Heatherwick pursued on the basis no-one will be standing upstairs??!!!), with an updated Metroplitan concept windscreen and an NS inspired rear end! I was trying to picture one in NXWM livery - I can't imagine it in anything but red at the moment.

I really would like to see NXWM have some Citaros.

And the new Wright / Volvo 'Streets Ahead' double decker.

Is that the nutty fruitcake Boris Johnson bus - allegedly TfL t place an order for 600 soon. Someone should do an FOI request to see how much public money has been expended on that (beyond the cost of buying normal buses) - looks like an updated 1963 Park Royal Fleetline body to me!!

The initial order for 8 was expensive because it included all the development and design costs. The production run should only cost about the same as other hybrid buses. After being able to have a close look at LT3 at the NEC this week I was well impressed with the general layout

The look is not bad (although they look extremely long), I would agree, but the big issue for me is what on earth was the point? I know there was a political imperative re open platform rear entrance buses, but at a time of austerity the idea that a publicly funded organisation should expend money on something as extravagent is extraordinary - nearly as bad as the Routemaster itself in the 50s.

One appears in the new James Bond film (as the equivalent of a film extra - parked in Whitehall)!!!

And the new Wright / Volvo 'Streets Ahead' double decker.

Is that the nutty fruitcake Boris Johnson bus - allegedly TfL t place an order for 600 soon. Someone should do an FOI request to see how much public money has been expended on that (beyond the cost of buying normal buses) - looks like an updated 1963 Park Royal Fleetline body to me!!

At this rate, the new livery will be all conquering quite soon..........

1099 in NXWM / NXC livery I make it. 432 remaining to do, obviously this number will be less with new deliveries.

I made it 350-400 left but it was a very quick add up. At the current rate, these won't take too long. I thought that Trailways were mentioned a while back, doing a WN Trident in that big batch of 75?

At this rate, the new livery will be all conquering quite soon..........

in my opinion they need to go asap. they are potential deathtraps - brakes are terrible, visibility is poor, suspension is non existant especially over speed humps and they rattle like mad, feel like they are going to fall apart. there are a few drivers at the garage who refuse to drive them.

Interesting - I'd agree with the rattling and banging and also the surging ride..........but they're one of the most successful buses ever produced in the UK. OK they're a little old now but are they any worse that a Volvo B6LE? 10 years + for a single decker of this type (they appear very lightweight in terms of construction), and they surely are going to be clapped out? I travel on 15 yr old ones occassionally - the Plaxton Pointer bodies rattle like hell.

I'm surprised anyone gets away with refusing to drive a perfectly roadworthy vehicle these days - it used to happen in the 70s, along with loads of other industrial maladies long outdated.

Great news on the midibus order.

NX will have a similar issue once the 2000-2004 start to come due for withdrawal as there are 658 double deckers that are currently in service from that era, and then there was a lull on double decker deliveries of any size until 2007

Which equals 131.5 buses per year  ;)

But I'm guessing that The Presidents and later Mercs/early Tridents will be replaced concurrently at 130 vehs per year maybe from 2014/2015.