Reading a quote in the new buses mag about the Midland takeover which states from John Barlow (finance director arriva) "Midland has an exellent standing and reputation" will that last they have failed in the past with Chase and do Arriva really want to buy up other West Mids companies to expand. One reason I think Chase failed was they tried to run it all from head office like all other depots and they had no clue and NXWM destroyed them. I hope sucess for Arriva but I have doubts. What do others think?
Quote from: Discodave on September 17, 2012, 01:22:44 PM
Reading a quote in the new buses mag about the Midland takeover which states from John Barlow (finance director arriva) "Midland has an exellent standing and reputation" will that last they have failed in the past with Chase and do Arriva really want to buy up other West Mids companies to expand. One reason I think Chase failed was they tried to run it all from head office like all other depots and they had no clue and NXWM destroyed them. I hope sucess for Arriva but I have doubts. What do others think?
I think this is a different situation to Chase. I think they got Chase on the cheap for 2 reasons...Chase were eager to sell as I don't think they were making much money and were at a point where they had a potential 100% fleet replacement to deal with, and also Arriva were desperate for the Walsall corridor exclusivity, which they achieved. The rest of the operation was a take or leave to them I think, although they certainly could and should have done a better job. I think NXWM had them over a barrell though in that they were prepared to leave Cannock on the proviso that Arriva ditched the majority of its ex Chase services within the West Mids barring the 560. Ironically it was Midland who benefitted but NXWM have no such bargaining tool this time.
Midland is being acquired at a time when they are following a very different strategy, and there is no obvious competition related benefit in acquiring them in terms of home soil. Also I would think they have paid a much more realistic price. I can't see them making the same mistakes as they did at Chase although I think they have their work cut out as the recent tender round demonstrated. I do however think they are extremely serious about this expansion and won't be going away.
Fleet investment will be the big indication as the Midland fleet and much of the Cannock and Stafford fleets don't have much left to offer. If we see wholescale fleet replacement then I think we will be able to judge this development in a very different light.
Nxwm were prepared to pull out of Cannock if Arriva ditched Chase routes? that isnt true Nxwm only operated one main service to Walsall, the 351 which ran a completely different route to the 1, nx ditched it cos it ran at a loss
Quote from: bob on September 17, 2012, 05:53:21 PM
Nxwm were prepared to pull out of Cannock if Arriva ditched Chase routes? that isnt true Nxwm only operated one main service to Walsall, the 351 which ran a completely different route to the 1, nx ditched it cos it ran at a loss
I did say 'I think'.......obviously neither company would ever admit to it if they did, but that doesn't mean these things don't happen.
im hoping NXWM come back into Cannock at some point, theyd wipe the floor with Arriva! It wont happen though unfortunately
With Cannock, nxwm could decide to swamp cannock or somewhere in arriva's territory perhaps as a message-u are not welcome in the west midlands!! Dont forget, thats what NXWM did with stevensons although I know this is unlikely
Quote from: Discodave on September 17, 2012, 01:22:44 PM
Reading a quote in the new buses mag about the Midland takeover which states from John Barlow (finance director arriva) "Midland has an exellent standing and reputation" will that last they have failed in the past with Chase and do Arriva really want to buy up other West Mids companies to expand. One reason I think Chase failed was they tried to run it all from head office like all other depots and they had no clue and NXWM destroyed them. I hope sucess for Arriva but I have doubts. What do others think?
That statement show some poor logic from Arriva.
"Midland has an exellent standing and reputation"
So what are Arriva going to do? - completely delete the Midland name from day one, so the "excellent reputation" company will just disappear and a new company most passengers don't know will appear in their place.
Quote from: Peter123 on September 17, 2012, 06:25:58 PM
With Cannock, nxwm could decide to swamp cannock or somewhere in arriva's territory perhaps as a message-u are not welcome in the west midlands!! Dont forget, thats what NXWM did with stevensons although I know this is unlikely
itll never happen NXWM have absolutely zilch interest in Cannock, i wouldnt imagine it being a very profitable area for even Arriva these days. Pity tho, if nxwm competed on the number 1 theyd win hands down
It is a shame nxwm and other operators don't join together sometimes to jointly run routes. I would think a cannock route could be done with Arriva, and in other areas too. I think nxwm and First could work together on a Bromsgrove corridor too and possibly with Stagecoach in Coventry to Leamington.
Quote from: Peter123 on September 17, 2012, 06:25:58 PM
With Cannock, nxwm could decide to swamp cannock or somewhere in arriva's territory perhaps as a message-u are not welcome in the west midlands!! Dont forget, thats what NXWM did with stevensons although I know this is unlikely
As I've said elsewhere, I doubt NXWM are too concerned about this. There is more than enough to go round in the West Mids these days and I would imagine they are baffled as to how nobody's wanted a share up until now. Even so, it will be a very minor share when you look at the scale of NX's network. No other conurbation the size of West Midlands in the UK only has one of the large groups as a predominant operator.
The days of setting up tit for tat operations like the Burton and Derby scenarios are I believe long gone. The costs sre simply too high and can't be warranted anymore. Look for instance at how long it takes and how much it costs to employ a few drivers these days? That's before you start looking at vehicles and premises and / or dead mileage.
Large operators are better off investing resource into their key corridors and networks to make sure there is little room for a serious competitor and NXWM have managed that up until now.
It has to be said although I am no expert on anything to do with routes/tenders/operations e.t.c surely if Midland had anything reasonable to offer, NX would have bought it not Arriva and offered more money!? I persume therefore NX do not see this as any threat. I would therefore also question that Midland buy several new buses spray them up give a good image and then sell up within months later?? Arriva's recent takeover of Wolves routes do not seam to have picked up either, often buses are emply or have just a few passengers on as with many midland routes, they do not seam to be that much 'In demand'
My opinion....passengers will sufer in the end (well a few anyways)
Quote from: 4006 on September 17, 2012, 09:45:21 PM
It has to be said although I am no expert on anything to do with routes/tenders/operations e.t.c surely if Midland had anything reasonable to offer, NX would have bought it not Arriva and offered more money!? I persume therefore NX do not see this as any threat. I would therefore also question that Midland buy several new buses spray them up give a good image and then sell up within months later?? Arriva's recent takeover of Wolves routes do not seam to have picked up either, often buses are emply or have just a few passengers on as with many midland routes, they do not seam to be that much 'In demand'
My opinion....passengers will sufer in the end (well a few anyways)
If NX attempted to buy up any operators in the WM region i.e. Rotala, Midland, Claribels etc, no doubt any moves would be blocked / or referred to the MMC due to NXWM's dominance and already high market share in the region. Therefore I would think that NX hands are tied in terms of making a counter offer for a business Arriva may be targeting. The biggest problem any competitor has operating against NXWM is the size & scale of its network and its own range of travelcards. More passengers buy NXWM travelcards than NWM due to them being more cost effective, any competing operator can only take passengers of NXWM services that pay cash or hold NWM passes
Quote from: andy on September 17, 2012, 07:26:12 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on September 17, 2012, 06:25:58 PM
With Cannock, nxwm could decide to swamp cannock or somewhere in arriva's territory perhaps as a message-u are not welcome in the west midlands!! Dont forget, thats what NXWM did with stevensons although I know this is unlikely
As I've said elsewhere, I doubt NXWM are too concerned about this. There is more than enough to go round in the West Mids these days and I would imagine they are baffled as to how nobody's wanted a share up until now. Even so, it will be a very minor share when you look at the scale of NX's network. No other conurbation the size of West Midlands in the UK only has one of the large groups as a predominant operator.
The days of setting up tit for tat operations like the Burton and Derby scenarios are I believe long gone. The costs sre simply too high and can't be warranted anymore. Look for instance at how long it takes and how much it costs to employ a few drivers these days? That's before you start looking at vehicles and premises and / or dead mileage.
Large operators are better off investing resource into their key corridors and networks to make sure there is little room for a serious competitor and NXWM have managed that up until now.
If Arriva did get ever NXWM's back up no doubt they would just increase frequencies / offer return fares / introduced special tickets aimed at putting the squeeze on the competing Arriva services.
If it did ever come to an all out war which seems unlikely, NXWM could easily introduce competing services on Cannocks more lucrative routes and operate them out of WA garage without too much dead mileage or possibly even strike in Tamworth operating from PB
Arriva seem to be concentrating on tendered services in the Centro area - so isn't its main competitor Rotala, not NXWM?
Quote from: Justin Tyme on September 17, 2012, 10:25:59 PM
Arriva seem to be concentrating on tendered services in the Centro area - so isn't its main competitor Rotala, not NXWM?
At present I'd agree with the above, but I can't help thinking the Centro tendered work will be a stepping stone to grander plans in the future which may well involve in to introducing further commercial services and possibly swallowing up Rotala Plc. After all it was said the Arriva won all the first tranche of tenders at knock down prices over a 5 year term, even Arriva couldn't justify making a loss or only breaking even on the WM tendered operations forever
Did NXWM's predecessors ever work into Tamworth, apart from Drayton Manor trips?
Quote from: Westy on September 17, 2012, 10:50:07 PM
Did NXWM's predecessors ever work into Tamworth, apart from Drayton Manor trips?
They very briefly had some tendered work involving evening 110's and a couple of locals in Tamworth but didn't bother with it for long. Allegedly there were some plans to 'invade' when MRN developed the Wolverhampton and Walsall Minibus network but they never ended up going through with it because MRN scrapped their operation and also cancelled plans to run minibuses in Sutton and turned their attentions to Derby. Since then WMT/NXWM have paid no attention to Tamworth.
Quote from: Winston on September 17, 2012, 10:23:36 PM
If it did ever come to an all out war which seems unlikely, NXWM could easily introduce competing services on Cannocks more lucrative routes and operate them out of WA garage without too much dead mileage or possibly even strike in Tamworth operating from PB
Well, if a certain rumour that i've heard turns out to be true, prepare for all out war ;)
Quote from: Winston on September 17, 2012, 10:11:12 PM
The biggest problem any competitor has operating against NXWM is the size & scale of its network and its own range of travelcards. More passengers buy NXWM travelcards than NWM due to them being more cost effective, any competing operator can only take passengers of NXWM services that pay cash or hold NWM passes
And that is the biggest reason that nobody has ever bothered to engage them commercially on a grand scale. It makes a mockery of competition in the bus industry that NWM (Centro) sit by and make no attempt to introduce a more cost effective travelcard scheme that encourages people to buy it instead and therefore encourage more operators and split the revenue. Yes i know it is only 20p more on a day ticket and a few pounds more per month but it is a psychological thing, and also the Travelcard is much easier to set up on DD and renew. NWM (Centro) in my opinion have been too happy to sit by and allow this situation to exist. It needs to be shaken up and they need to be FAR more innovative.
Quote from: NEL111P on September 17, 2012, 11:17:12 PM
Quote from: Winston on September 17, 2012, 10:23:36 PM
If it did ever come to an all out war which seems unlikely, NXWM could easily introduce competing services on Cannocks more lucrative routes and operate them out of WA garage without too much dead mileage or possibly even strike in Tamworth operating from PB
Well, if a certain rumour that i've heard turns out to be true, prepare for all out war ;)
Are you prepared to elaborate Dave?
A war would certainly spice things up here in the WM region
Quote from: Winston on September 17, 2012, 11:23:16 PM
Quote from: NEL111P on September 17, 2012, 11:17:12 PM
Quote from: Winston on September 17, 2012, 10:23:36 PM
If it did ever come to an all out war which seems unlikely, NXWM could easily introduce competing services on Cannocks more lucrative routes and operate them out of WA garage without too much dead mileage or possibly even strike in Tamworth operating from PB
Well, if a certain rumour that i've heard turns out to be true, prepare for all out war ;)
Are you prepared to elaborate Dave?
A war would certainly spice things up here in the WM region
Not at present as nothing's been announced. Keep an eye on vosa though, just in case.
Quote from: NEL111P on September 17, 2012, 11:32:40 PM
Quote from: Winston on September 17, 2012, 11:23:16 PM
Quote from: NEL111P on September 17, 2012, 11:17:12 PM
Quote from: Winston on September 17, 2012, 10:23:36 PM
If it did ever come to an all out war which seems unlikely, NXWM could easily introduce competing services on Cannocks more lucrative routes and operate them out of WA garage without too much dead mileage or possibly even strike in Tamworth operating from PB
Well, if a certain rumour that i've heard turns out to be true, prepare for all out war ;)
Are you prepared to elaborate Dave?
A war would certainly spice things up here in the WM region
Not at present as nothing's been announced. Keep an eye on vosa though, just in case.
Would it involve NXWM & an Arriva dominated area beginning with the letter C? lol
Quote from: NEL111P on September 17, 2012, 11:32:40 PM
Quote from: Winston on September 17, 2012, 11:23:16 PM
Quote from: NEL111P on September 17, 2012, 11:17:12 PM
Quote from: Winston on September 17, 2012, 10:23:36 PM
If it did ever come to an all out war which seems unlikely, NXWM could easily introduce competing services on Cannocks more lucrative routes and operate them out of WA garage without too much dead mileage or possibly even strike in Tamworth operating from PB
Well, if a certain rumour that i've heard turns out to be true, prepare for all out war ;)
Are you prepared to elaborate Dave?
A war would certainly spice things up here in the WM region
Not at present as nothing's been announced. Keep an eye on vosa though, just in case.
No worries Dave, thanks for the heads up!
Ooooo a buswar, .lets hope ive herd its good for passangers lol, but saying that, team NXWM all the way!
i would put money on that it wont be in Cannock, shame though, with Chase, green bus service, 99.9% ( other than 3 peak trips) of NXWM And now Midland gone, Arriva now have a complete monopoly of Cannock. Bad Times :-(
Surely Arriva would also be at risk of nxwm retaliation in Lichfield, Stafford and even Telford as all are not that far away from current nxwm operating territory.
I wouldnt have thought stafford or lichfield would be of any interest. telford maybe but i doubt it. Nxwm have no interest in out of county services
Quote from: bob on September 18, 2012, 06:03:20 PM
I wouldnt have thought stafford or lichfield would be of any interest. telford maybe but i doubt it. Nxwm have no interest in out of county services
Haven't they? I know of one route never operated by NXWM or a predecessor currently having passenger counts done to see if it is viable to register against the current operator.
The biggest problem with out of county services for NXWM is you have to vary the farescale to make them pay. £1.90 is not viable for long journies through area with sparcer housing, hence why Stagecoach First & Arriva have generally have higher fares.
Two routes that do venture into further parts, the 12 and X51, both charge more than £1.90 for the longer trips
Quote from: Tony on September 18, 2012, 06:17:40 PM
Quote from: bob on September 18, 2012, 06:03:20 PM
I wouldnt have thought stafford or lichfield would be of any interest. telford maybe but i doubt it. Nxwm have no interest in out of county services
Haven't they? I know of one route never operated by NXWM or a predecessor currently having passenger counts done to see if it is viable to register against the current operator.
The biggest problem with out of county services for NXWM is you have to vary the farescale to make them pay. £1.90 is not viable for long journies through area with sparcer housing, hence why Stagecoach First & Arriva have generally have higher fares.
Two routes that do venture into further parts, the 12 and X51, both charge more than £1.90 for the longer trips
Interesting
Its why I presume Green Bus also has a similar fare structure
Though nNetwork and NX Travelcards are valid on 12 all the way to Leamington :)
Quote from: Tony on September 18, 2012, 06:17:40 PM
Quote from: bob on September 18, 2012, 06:03:20 PM
I wouldnt have thought stafford or lichfield would be of any interest. telford maybe but i doubt it. Nxwm have no interest in out of county services
Haven't they? I know of one route never operated by NXWM or a predecessor currently having passenger counts done to see if it is viable to register against the current operator.
The biggest problem with out of county services for NXWM is you have to vary the farescale to make them pay. £1.90 is not viable for long journies through area with sparcer housing, hence why Stagecoach First & Arriva have generally have higher fares.
Two routes that do venture into further parts, the 12 and X51, both charge more than £1.90 for the longer trips
Wonder which route this is-maybe to redditch/bromsgrove/worcester or northwards possibly or cannock-dunno just speculating
Its all very well having a bus war, but what happens when one operator is victorius?
The loser leaves & if u had a bus pass with them, tough!
Quote from: vinh1000 on September 18, 2012, 06:37:27 PM
Quote from: Tony on September 18, 2012, 06:17:40 PM
Quote from: bob on September 18, 2012, 06:03:20 PM
I wouldnt have thought stafford or lichfield would be of any interest. telford maybe but i doubt it. Nxwm have no interest in out of county services
Haven't they? I know of one route never operated by NXWM or a predecessor currently having passenger counts done to see if it is viable to register against the current operator.
The biggest problem with out of county services for NXWM is you have to vary the farescale to make them pay. £1.90 is not viable for long journies through area with sparcer housing, hence why Stagecoach First & Arriva have generally have higher fares.
Two routes that do venture into further parts, the 12 and X51, both charge more than £1.90 for the longer trips
Interesting
Its why I presume Green Bus also has a similar fare structure
Though nNetwork and NX Travelcards are valid on 12 all the way to Leamington :)
nNetwork are valid no-where near Leamington Spa! They are not even valid to Kenilworth finishing a couple of stops past the University of Warwick
Quote from: Tony on September 18, 2012, 07:16:57 PM
nNetwork are valid no-where near Leamington Spa! They are not even valid to Kenilworth finishing a couple of stops past the University of Warwick
Gibbet Hill.
i bet its the number 1 to cannock then am i warm?
Quote from: bob on September 18, 2012, 07:42:55 PM
i bet its the number 1 to cannock then am i warm?
Doubt it, the route Tony mentions has never been operated by NXWM or a predecessor, WMT & TWM have operated Walsall - Cannock previously, most recently the 351 until withdrawal
Quote from: Tony on September 18, 2012, 07:16:57 PM
Quote from: vinh1000 on September 18, 2012, 06:37:27 PM
Quote from: Tony on September 18, 2012, 06:17:40 PM
Quote from: bob on September 18, 2012, 06:03:20 PM
I wouldnt have thought stafford or lichfield would be of any interest. telford maybe but i doubt it. Nxwm have no interest in out of county services
Haven't they? I know of one route never operated by NXWM or a predecessor currently having passenger counts done to see if it is viable to register against the current operator.
The biggest problem with out of county services for NXWM is you have to vary the farescale to make them pay. £1.90 is not viable for long journies through area with sparcer housing, hence why Stagecoach First & Arriva have generally have higher fares.
Two routes that do venture into further parts, the 12 and X51, both charge more than £1.90 for the longer trips
Interesting
Its why I presume Green Bus also has a similar fare structure
Though nNetwork and NX Travelcards are valid on 12 all the way to Leamington :)
nNetwork are valid no-where near Leamington Spa! They are not even valid to Kenilworth finishing a couple of stops past the University of Warwick
I called the Coventry Depot regarding this and they confirmed it is all right to use it :P which I have done already specifically also to Kenilworth but only on the 12 (likewise 20 to bedworth is also valid) x51 however it isn't valid
he said a route which has never been operated by nxwm or a predecessor. The 351 went a completely different route, the 1 has never been operated by them
Quote from: bob on September 19, 2012, 07:13:18 AM
he said a route which has never been operated by nxwm or a predecessor. The 351 went a completely different route, the 1 has never been operated by them
The 1 route has been operated by NXWM predecessors up until about 10 years ago. It was originally part of a Hednesford to Dudley route via Walsall
Tony that was the 301 wasnt it? it went via cheslyn hay & landywood not a direct route down the A34 and through leamore, 301 was virtually same as 351 only 351 terminated at walsall as did the 301
In 2000 when I moved to walsall there were buses up the A34 as well as cheslyn hay. Several stops on the A34 still had 301 on then
Tony you mention its more then £1.90 fromm Cannock into the West Mids never ever known when I did the 950a/951 etc anyone paying the correct fare to Birmingham (this was on old fares)
Quote from: bob on September 17, 2012, 06:20:39 PM
im hoping NXWM come back into Cannock at some point, theyd wipe the floor with Arriva! It wont happen though unfortunately
Would make Arriva think if they went in hard but agree they won't
Quote from: vinh1000 on September 18, 2012, 10:18:55 PM
Quote from: Tony on September 18, 2012, 07:16:57 PM
Quote from: vinh1000 on September 18, 2012, 06:37:27 PM
Quote from: Tony on September 18, 2012, 06:17:40 PM
Quote from: bob on September 18, 2012, 06:03:20 PM
I wouldnt have thought stafford or lichfield would be of any interest. telford maybe but i doubt it. Nxwm have no interest in out of county services
Haven't they? I know of one route never operated by NXWM or a predecessor currently having passenger counts done to see if it is viable to register against the current operator.
The biggest problem with out of county services for NXWM is you have to vary the farescale to make them pay. £1.90 is not viable for long journies through area with sparcer housing, hence why Stagecoach First & Arriva have generally have higher fares.
Two routes that do venture into further parts, the 12 and X51, both charge more than £1.90 for the longer trips
Interesting
Its why I presume Green Bus also has a similar fare structure
Though nNetwork and NX Travelcards are valid on 12 all the way to Leamington :)
nNetwork are valid no-where near Leamington Spa! They are not even valid to Kenilworth finishing a couple of stops past the University of Warwick
I called the Coventry Depot regarding this and they confirmed it is all right to use it :P which I have done already specifically also to Kenilworth but only on the 12 (likewise 20 to bedworth is also valid) x51 however it isn't valid
They are wrong Tony is right he is a revenue Inspector so NEVER challange him on ticket issues may be sucking up but if its your job you would know
where on the A34 though? there was a 350/350a but again i dont recall them soing the exact 1 route? Maybe it isnt a cannock bound service theyre looking at, only others i could think of are Wolves to Telford or brum to Tamworth, wouldnt be the 112 to lichfield cos thats dead
Quote from: bob on September 19, 2012, 05:21:22 PM
where on the A34 though? there was a 350/350a but again i dont recall them soing the exact 1 route? Maybe it isnt a cannock bound service theyre looking at, only others i could think of are Wolves to Telford or brum to Tamworth, wouldnt be the 112 to lichfield cos thats dead
Know one has actually confirmed that it is an Arriva route NXWM are looking at, it's just the most likely given Arriva's moves in the WM area. There is always a chance it could be a First route, bearing in mind both Kidderminster & Redditch operations are thought to be up for sale
Probably be the 144 route then. I think First would respond though if it is.
Quote from: Winston on September 19, 2012, 06:44:05 PM
Quote from: bob on September 19, 2012, 05:21:22 PM
where on the A34 though? there was a 350/350a but again i dont recall them soing the exact 1 route? Maybe it isnt a cannock bound service theyre looking at, only others i could think of are Wolves to Telford or brum to Tamworth, wouldnt be the 112 to lichfield cos thats dead
Know one has actually confirmed that it is an Arriva route NXWM are looking at, it's just the most likely given Arriva's moves in the WM area. There is always a chance it could be a First route, bearing in mind both Kidderminster & Redditch operations are thought to be up for sale
I don't know where this myth comes from that the 112 is not busy or profitable between Lichfield and Birmingham. Just because Arriva like to play pass the parcel with it I can assure you it's a very busy run. Personally I can't see that being the route that NXWM are interested in but you never know.
Since the route in question has never been operated by NXWM OR PREDECESSORS that really excludes all routes from Wolverhampton (the corporation operated to Cannock and Bridgnorth) and the PTE to telford on contract.
Almost all routes from Walsall were covered by the Corporation,even through to Stafford.
Of the present Arriva routes from Birmingham,the only ones I can remember are 112 and 116.
This leaves the more likely First routes,Kidderminster having been covered on Sundays,so most probably 146 (don'tremember them operating this) or the favourite 144,either to Bromsgrove or through to Worcester.
Even this though would be odd since it is worked from Worcester garage which First want to retain.
if its that successful why are MPd's used on it half the time & why was it axed before?
Quote from: bob on September 19, 2012, 08:45:12 PM
if its that successful why are MPd's used on it half the time & why was it axed before?
MPD's were used because Burton and Cannock never had enough of the correct vehicles, and the MPD's would frequently leave passengers behind, and it was axed because Burton gained so much work from Swadlincote and Coalville that they simply didn't have the resources to operate it at that time, neither did any other depot. As soon as Arriva sorted the staffing situation out and gathered extra resources it was re registered. Tamworth will be operating it with full size Omnilinks.
Quote from: arrifirststage on September 19, 2012, 08:06:20 PM
Since the route in question has never been operated by NXWM OR PREDECESSORS that really excludes all routes from Wolverhampton (the corporation operated to Cannock and Bridgnorth) and the PTE to telford on contract.
Almost all routes from Walsall were covered by the Corporation,even through to Stafford.
Of the present Arriva routes from Birmingham,the only ones I can remember are 112 and 116.
This leaves the more likely First routes,Kidderminster having been covered on Sundays,so most probably 146 (don'tremember them operating this) or the favourite 144,either to Bromsgrove or through to Worcester.
Even this though would be odd since it is worked from Worcester garage which First want to retain.
WMT/TWM have operated the 145 in to Bromsgrove in the past, did they not operate the 146 on Evenings & Sundays at some point? Or did Pete's Travel win this work off MRW/First
Did Wolves Corp ever do Wolves to Stafford, or was that always Midland Red?
Quote from: Westy on September 19, 2012, 09:04:46 PM
Did Wolves Corp ever do Wolves to Stafford, or was that always Midland Red?
It was always Midland Red, the Corporation reached as far as Coven and Brewood but never got to Stafford.
Quote from: bob on September 19, 2012, 05:21:22 PM
where on the A34 though? there was a 350/350a but again i dont recall them soing the exact 1 route? Maybe it isnt a cannock bound service theyre looking at, only others i could think of are Wolves to Telford or brum to Tamworth, wouldnt be the 112 to lichfield cos thats dead
The 350 did follow the Arriva 1 route as it was on the running boards with regards to the A34 bridge (single deck only) as it was on a 351 board
Didnt it turn off the A34 tho? at quinton or turnberry or something? and go down green lane? none of which the 1 does..
no it followed the full a34 through Bloxwich into Walsall but remember the number 1 did go down the full length of Green lane it was only chase which went through leamore to try and keep infront of the arriva 1 it was changed on takeover
oh right, just out of interest if its likely to be a First or whatever route what r all the comments doin under an 'success of arriva' post. Hey maybe its the 825 theyre looking at or the 33 ( doubt that one tho). cant think of any cannock routestheyd want...
possibly bob it with regards to an earlier comment Tony made on NXWM are looking at a route passenger numbers they have never done and maybe looking to register a service on it
So is anyone going to reveal what this route theyre allegedly looking into is then?
Quote from: bob on September 22, 2012, 12:49:59 AM
So is anyone going to reveal what this route theyre allegedly looking into is then?
Unlikely Bob, as it would be commercially sensitive info until a decision has been made on whether to proceed or not
Quote from: andy on September 19, 2012, 07:17:26 PM
Quote from: Winston on September 19, 2012, 06:44:05 PM
Quote from: bob on September 19, 2012, 05:21:22 PM
where on the A34 though? there was a 350/350a but again i dont recall them soing the exact 1 route? Maybe it isnt a cannock bound service theyre looking at, only others i could think of are Wolves to Telford or brum to Tamworth, wouldnt be the 112 to lichfield cos thats dead
Know one has actually confirmed that it is an Arriva route NXWM are looking at, it's just the most likely given Arriva's moves in the WM area. There is always a chance it could be a First route, bearing in mind both Kidderminster & Redditch operations are thought to be up for sale
I don't know where this myth comes from that the 112 is not busy or profitable between Lichfield and Birmingham. Just because Arriva like to play pass the parcel with it I can assure you it's a very busy run. Personally I can't see that being the route that NXWM are interested in but you never know.
When ever I have seen the 112 in Brum there is only a few people on it, most people use NXWM
to get from Brum to Sutton so inless people use it from Lichfield to Sutton, I cannot see it making much money, the same for the Tamworth Brum services they are always empty at the Brum end, One thing that must stop people using it is the amount of time it takes to get from Brum to Tamworth.
arriva seem to have given up on express services like the X31 & X74 which where popular with customers
The X31 was great and often used to leave Brum full, at certain times, but failed cos of the hold ups on the M6 ( this killed the old X31 off years ago as well). Its mad that we now dont have a bus between Cannock & Birmingham :-( Maybe a new service might run again in future, down the A34, or They might bring the old 156 back. They could run it to brownhills then extend it to Cannock & get rid of the 33, its lightly loaded between brownhills & walsall anyway so getting rid shouldnt cause that many problems
Quote from: woody38 on September 23, 2012, 11:21:54 AM
Quote from: andy on September 19, 2012, 07:17:26 PM
Quote from: Winston on September 19, 2012, 06:44:05 PM
Quote from: bob on September 19, 2012, 05:21:22 PM
where on the A34 though? there was a 350/350a but again i dont recall them soing the exact 1 route? Maybe it isnt a cannock bound service theyre looking at, only others i could think of are Wolves to Telford or brum to Tamworth, wouldnt be the 112 to lichfield cos thats dead
Know one has actually confirmed that it is an Arriva route NXWM are looking at, it's just the most likely given Arriva's moves in the WM area. There is always a chance it could be a First route, bearing in mind both Kidderminster & Redditch operations are thought to be up for sale
I don't know where this myth comes from that the 112 is not busy or profitable between Lichfield and Birmingham. Just because Arriva like to play pass the parcel with it I can assure you it's a very busy run. Personally I can't see that being the route that NXWM are interested in but you never know.
When ever I have seen the 112 in Brum there is only a few people on it, most people use NXWM
to get from Brum to Sutton so inless people use it from Lichfield to Sutton, I cannot see it making much money, the same for the Tamworth Brum services they are always empty at the Brum end, One thing that must stop people using it is the amount of time it takes to get from Brum to Tamworth.
arriva seem to have given up on express services like the X31 & X74 which where popular with customers
The Arriva services can't be judged just by the loadings in and out of Birmingham, they collect a lot of passengers along the route from Erdington onwards towards their destinations.
And what's more if they drop in at a time when 902/905/904 are bunched or disrupted, as they can frequently be, they get very good loadings in and out of the City.
Believe me they are profitable routes. The X74 issue is another matter and that still needles me! If Arriva have any sense they will review the lack of express provision as not everybody in Tamworth wants to drive to Birmingham or get to a rail station and pay the extortionate fare.
Quote from: bob on September 23, 2012, 11:32:14 AM
Its mad that we now dont have a bus between Cannock & Birmingham
Not strictly true, NXWM operate three AM X51 journeys out of Cannock, and three PM return journeys from Birmingham. Presumably NXWM only operate these certain journeys as they're the only ones worth running commercially. I wonder just how many people regularly use this service to travel to Birmingham from Cannock and back...
the 655 am one gets a few on it but its such a circuituous ballache of a route and the 10 min layover at walsall doesnt help. if it was sped up and actually advertised ( theres not even a timetable cannock end and hasnt been for years!!!!!) it could be more successful, altho they must make money as these 3 trips have been running for years now at this level of provision
With regards the peak X51's, I've found that quite a few passengers seem to just travel between Walsall & Cannock, and only a small amount (10 probably at the max), usually continue on the bus into Birmingham.
It would probably pick up more passengers if it also served the 1/2 stop in Walsall, as it is quite confusing for the X51 to board in both directions from Stand B.
When I was a student in Sutton I was always amazed at how busy the 110 could get at peak times towards Tamworth, often leaving with full loads. The 112 always seemed to be near enough full heading into and out of Sutton whenever I saw it, usually full of OAPs though. I always believed this route could probably be run half hourly between Sutton & Lichfield.
Whats the fare from Cannock into Brum?
Quote from: notepanel on September 23, 2012, 07:22:38 PM
When I was a student in Sutton I was always amazed at how busy the 110 could get at peak times towards Tamworth, often leaving with full loads. The 112 always seemed to be near enough full heading into and out of Sutton whenever I saw it, usually full of OAPs though. I always believed this route could probably be run half hourly between Sutton & Lichfield.
At one point there was the 112 and the 111 and there was a half hourly frequency between Lichfield and Sutton, and it was pretty well used. The 111's only got taken off when Lichfield depot closed. They were originally only put on to get vehicles over to Sutton to work 165's 117's 109's and 25's and enable driver reliefs at Lichfield but they actually took off in their own right. There was also a failed experiment with a 912 which ran Rugeley to Birmingham via Lichfield and Sutton. That was probably one of the least used services I ever drove but seemed to last much longer than I expected it to.
Quote from: Stu on September 23, 2012, 11:59:39 AM
Quote from: bob on September 23, 2012, 11:32:14 AM
Its mad that we now dont have a bus between Cannock & Birmingham
Not strictly true, NXWM operate three AM X51 journeys out of Cannock, and three PM return journeys from Birmingham. Presumably NXWM only operate these certain journeys as they're the only ones worth running commercially. I wonder just how many people regularly use this service to travel to Birmingham from Cannock and back...
I try to catch the 2nd departure which arrives in Bloxwich around 650am, reaching my own stop on Somerfield Rd a few mins later, but half the time it never arrives on time, which means a mad dash round to Bloxwich Road/Green Lane, to catch 710am 302!
Im hoping NXWM come back to Cannock at some point, as i saidbefore if they compete on the 1 theyd beat arriva hands down
Anyone know if the 2nd X51 from Cannock has run this morning as I waited for it in Bloxwich, catching the 302 instead, plus I saw someone who would normally catch it come off the 3rd bus & they reckoned one had been missed out?
its bad if they run a service like that. before they renumbered it and linked it with x51 trips brum end ( 951a) the 1st & 3rd trips were deckers & the 2nd for some reason were always B6 operated. i never got that....
Was on a 350/1 board as it ran to brum then as a 951e to walsall then became a 351 then 350 later hence a b6 A34 bridge again
Oh i see. Im still hoping they come back to Cannock lol. maybe they will at some point. Arriva's 2 is virtually same as 351 except the Leamore bit & theyre obviously not making a loss else theyd have axed it, although its not the busiest of routes. With regard to the takeover i cant believe the buses havent even got Arriva transfers on them! says alot dont it
Quote from: bob on September 25, 2012, 11:48:37 AM
Oh i see. Im still hoping they come back to Cannock lol. maybe they will at some point. Arriva's 2 is virtually same as 351 except the Leamore bit & theyre obviously not making a loss else theyd have axed it, although its not the busiest of routes. With regard to the takeover i cant believe the buses havent even got Arriva transfers on them! says alot dont it
All it says to me Bob is that the minute the B6's become available, most of this lot will be immediately withdrawn. Amending the legal lettering is the minimum requirement, they probably don't want to waste transfers on buses that are only going to be running for a couple more weeks.
Lol this is Arriva, a lot of their fleet consists of knackered MPDs /SPD darts
I have a completely different opinikn all together! Nxwm are rubbish! They only keep going because of there massive network. National express have lost and lost, take there train business once habing 7 franchise now with one, they obviously arent a good management team. I think its good that arriva have come in and I really hope they will start competitng against nx big time and with rotala dropping routes left right and centre theres arrivas invite. All of this talk about arriva going to cannock is rubbish. If arriva didnt like it they would wipe the floor with nx simple because they have more money. The west midlands needs other big operators to come in and create competition so hopefully the customer will benefit. Summary this could be the make or break for nx, they need to do something to stop shrinking!
You obviously dont live in Cannock! Would you rather pay )3.80 or £6 for a day saver?
Quote from: dannygill on October 03, 2012, 10:45:16 PM
I have a completely different opinikn all together! Nxwm are rubbish! They only keep going because of there massive network. National express have lost and lost, take there train business once habing 7 franchise now with one, they obviously arent a good management team. I think its good that arriva have come in and I really hope they will start competitng against nx big time and with rotala dropping routes left right and centre theres arrivas invite. All of this talk about arriva going to cannock is rubbish. If arriva didnt like it they would wipe the floor with nx simple because they have more money. The west midlands needs other big operators to come in and create competition so hopefully the customer will benefit. Summary this could be the make or break for nx, they need to do something to stop shrinking!
Arriva have not got a clue how to compete just look at the ex chase services the original reason chase was brought was to give a foothold in the midlands, and all the routes soon failed as NXWM made sure there buses were infront and behind and also the Travelcard is so popular compared to the N passes the only way to try and take on NXWM is basically compete on all routes and have a network with a own brand pass cheaper then them and also a good fleet. Most of arrivas fleet are shitty darts and dafs (yes they have deckers I know but mainly sd buses). I know being ex arriva they only put new buses on paying routes or supposed too. Arriva may have the cash but look at how much of the country they cover, compare that to NX (buses bit only) all NXWM would do is flood ther area with buses and cheaper fares and Arriva would soon be licking there wounds or wiped out.
Arriva are shit and theyve now got the monopoly in cannock! so much for deregulation & competition. one company providing a crap service
Im not saying arriva is brillient and isnt the cannock daysaver £4 and valid to walsall too? I dont live in cannock but often travel through their and I dont see a problem? when I travel I catch the 1/2 then 74/75 then 481. The buses they have are comfortable do the job and generally more cleaner. The drivers actually say thank you for showing you pass and do a good job. Nx buses ive seen a pic of mushrooms growing on one they are that dirty, most drivers dont even check you pass let aloan say thank you and I firmly berlieve that the size of their network is keeping them going. Bottom line is nx are big anymore and dont have the type of money arriva have to play with. How long will it be before stagecoach are pushing into birmingham already see there presence in coventry expanding and megabus getting larger what are national express doing? Arriva might not be perfect but they certainly have more money and are more switched on than nx and all you jeed to do is look at arriva yorkshire to see how good they can be.
And then look at the arriva rail group. My firdt job was with atw who was awful but look how much they have come on! atw, xc and chiltern all brillient train companies what have nx got?
Quote from: dannygill on October 04, 2012, 09:25:44 PM
Im not saying arriva is brillient and isnt the cannock daysaver £4 and valid to walsall too? I dont live in cannock but often travel through their and I dont see a problem? when I travel I catch the 1/2 then 74/75 then 481. The buses they have are comfortable do the job and generally more cleaner. The drivers actually say thank you for showing you pass and do a good job. Nx buses ive seen a pic of mushrooms growing on one they are that dirty, most drivers dont even check you pass let aloan say thank you and I firmly berlieve that the size of their network is keeping them going. Bottom line is nx are big anymore and dont have the type of money arriva have to play with. How long will it be before stagecoach are pushing into birmingham already see there presence in coventry expanding and megabus getting larger what are national express doing? Arriva might not be perfect but they certainly have more money and are more switched on than nx and all you jeed to do is look at arriva yorkshire to see how good they can be.
And then look at the arriva rail group. My firdt job was with atw who was awful but look how much they have come on! atw, xc and chiltern all brillient train companies what have nx got?
Disagree with everything you say here!1 Total nonesense-arriva are dreadful. Like first, their strategy is managing decline nothing more, nothing less. NXWM buses are generally clean and I doubt one had mushrooms growing on it. Arriva may be owned by Deutsche Bahn but NXWM operate one of the biggest and most profitable bus fleets in the UK and have lots of interests abroad including ALSA which is huge. The only reason arriva yorkshire are good is due to how good caldaire were..... and i think we should ask arriva's passengers about how good they really are, not someone who occasionally passes through
Quote from: Peter123 on October 04, 2012, 09:38:04 PM
I doubt one had mushrooms growing on it.
There was a picture posted on NXWM's facebook page of Mushrooms growing off the floor on a PL bus.
i'll sit back and watch,
If Arriva float, I will be surprised.
If Arriva Sink and drown I won't be.
they are crap in Leicester as well. I think I could do a better job and I have no experience in the transport sector!
the 481 has just had new Versas and the 74/5 has modern buses, if you saw the state of the buses used on the 25/6, 68, 70, 31/2/3 etc and sometimes the 1/2 youd see a different picture
Quote from: Peter123 on October 04, 2012, 09:38:04 PM
Quote from: dannygill on October 04, 2012, 09:25:44 PM
Im not saying arriva is brillient and isnt the cannock daysaver £4 and valid to walsall too? I dont live in cannock but often travel through their and I dont see a problem? when I travel I catch the 1/2 then 74/75 then 481. The buses they have are comfortable do the job and generally more cleaner. The drivers actually say thank you for showing you pass and do a good job. Nx buses ive seen a pic of mushrooms growing on one they are that dirty, most drivers dont even check you pass let aloan say thank you and I firmly berlieve that the size of their network is keeping them going. Bottom line is nx are big anymore and dont have the type of money arriva have to play with. How long will it be before stagecoach are pushing into birmingham already see there presence in coventry expanding and megabus getting larger what are national express doing? Arriva might not be perfect but they certainly have more money and are more switched on than nx and all you jeed to do is look at arriva yorkshire to see how good they can be.
And then look at the arriva rail group. My firdt job was with atw who was awful but look how much they have come on! atw, xc and chiltern all brillient train companies what have nx got?
Disagree with everything you say here!1 Total nonesense-arriva are dreadful. Like first, their strategy is managing decline nothing more, nothing less. NXWM buses are generally clean and I doubt one had mushrooms growing on it. Arriva may be owned by Deutsche Bahn but NXWM operate one of the biggest and most profitable bus fleets in the UK and have lots of interests abroad including ALSA which is huge. The only reason arriva yorkshire are good is due to how good caldaire were..... and i think we should ask arriva's passengers about how good they really are, not someone who occasionally passes through
NXWM know how to run a business they found trains are shit and got out before they went under Have you used Arriva owned companies dannygill I have never known so many cancelled trains on the ATW routes always on the london midlands service from shrewsbury as the arriva one has not turned up so rammed all the way to wolves. It does not matter how much you own but you need to run it correctly and with regards to cash NXWM have a lot more money than people think and could eaisily take on a large competetor even stagecoach. They are a good transport firm but if they are so good why are they not taking on the NXWM network elsewhere apart from Coventry. I agree with you Peter I use Arriva and the Cannock daysaver has not been valid into Walsall for months I live in Bloxwich and used to be able to buy it due to the extention now its £6 and the services you use are the quality partnership routes dannygill so will have good buses like Bob said ride the crap in cannock they rattle stink of fumes inside and just shite.
Do use arrive most evenings on the 335 service. Co
Quote from: Peter123 on October 04, 2012, 09:38:04 PM
Quote from: dannygill on October 04, 2012, 09:25:44 PM
Im not saying arriva is brillient and isnt the cannock daysaver £4 and valid to walsall too? I dont live in cannock but often travel through their and I dont see a problem? when I travel I catch the 1/2 then 74/75 then 481. The buses they have are comfortable do the job and generally more cleaner. The drivers actually say thank you for showing you pass and do a good job. Nx buses ive seen a pic of mushrooms growing on one they are that dirty, most drivers dont even check you pass let aloan say thank you and I firmly berlieve that the size of their network is keeping them going. Bottom line is nx are big anymore and dont have the type of money arriva have to play with. How long will it be before stagecoach are pushing into birmingham already see there presence in coventry expanding and megabus getting larger what are national express doing? Arriva might not be perfect but they certainly have more money and are more switched on than nx and all you jeed to do is look at arriva yorkshire to see how good they can be.
And then look at the arriva rail group. My firdt job was with atw who was awful but look how much they have come on! atw, xc and chiltern all brillient train companies what have nx got?
Disagree with everything you say here!1 Total nonesense-arriva are dreadful. Like first, their strategy is managing decline nothing more, nothing less. NXWM buses are generally clean and I doubt one had mushrooms growing on it. Arriva may be owned by Deutsche Bahn but NXWM operate one of the biggest and most profitable bus fleets in the UK and have lots of interests abroad including ALSA which is huge. The only reason arriva yorkshire are good is due to how good caldaire were..... and i think we should ask arriva's passengers about how good they really are, not someone who occasionally passes through
use arriva most evenings on 335 and it arrives on time and clean. No problems with arriva! And the trains from shrewsbury that arriva operate is due to the incompetence of london midland. And sorry but national express owning alsa doesnt make them big! First stagecoach db veolia comfort delgro all massive. Saying jational express is big is like saying sandwell travel is big compared to nx!
And witg there trains how can you say they have chosen to 'get out of trains' when they are putting new bids.... Bottom line is they are useless. About the only thing they run well in the uk is tuere coach network but buying rubbish levantes is only makiny there network worse by the day! Dont see them give the 'huge' alsa levantes! All merces it seems?
Danny,
First Group I would say are one of the biggest if not the biggest based on fleet size. But DB is a big concern due to the amount of trains its runs in Germany i.e. turnover & profit, plus its state run. Comfort Delgro on the other hand are pretty small on all counts, Ned Railways/Abellio are bigger. As regards NX Group being small I think you're overlooking the school bus business based in the US & Canada that runs a small fleet of 20,000+ inc school buses & now para transit vehicles. At the time of the Arriva takeover by DB the agreed takeover price was around £1.59 Billion, NX group are currently valued at £1.092Billion with today's share price at 213.5p a takeover usually commands a premium of around 30% on the closing share price before any announcement, so that would already put its takeover value at around the £1.45 Billion mark based on the current depressed share price due to Spanish National debt concerns & the Euro zone crisis, so there's not really a lot in it.
You cannot compare transport groups based only on fleet size, as they are not like for like. It needs to be based on turnover, profit & market cap to get a more accurate feel of who's the biggest
Buying rubbish Levantes? I've been on a "rubbish" Levante twice, to Leeds from Brum and back and it is one of the best journeys I've had.
Quote from: JackC on October 05, 2012, 11:49:47 PM
Buying rubbish Levantes? I've been on a "rubbish" Levante twice, to Leeds from Brum and back and it is one of the best journeys I've had.
Wasn't the Levante based on Caetano's award winning bodywork (not sure of the model name), but didn't it win European coach of the year?
Well I certainly wouldnt invest in national express at any share price! And no yellow school buses I know are a big thing for them but stagecoach, first, go ahead all do it too! as ive said I hope arriva will be tue make or break of national express. And I hope that they respond well and the passenger benefits.
And onto levantes for the other comment look at why selywns purchased plaxton elites compared to other coaches. Levantes are cheap and they would of only won an award for its front access lift. Drivers hate the levantes and at £20.000 cheaper than an elites you can see why operators choose cheap! And if you go back to 2006 national express only partrnered up with cataeno because irizar wouldnt do a frojt entry lift on its pb model.....so even nx didnt want them !!
Quote from: dannygill on October 06, 2012, 01:37:18 PM
Well I certainly wouldnt invest in national express at any share price! And no yellow school buses I know are a big thing for them but stagecoach, first, go ahead all do it too! as ive said I hope arriva will be tue make or break of national express. And I hope that they respond well and the passenger benefits.
And onto levantes for the other comment look at why selywns purchased plaxton elites compared to other coaches. Levantes are cheap and they would of only won an award for its front access lift. Drivers hate the levantes and at £20.000 cheaper than an elites you can see why operators choose cheap! And if you go back to 2006 national express only partrnered up with cataeno because irizar wouldnt do a frojt entry lift on its pb model.....so even nx didnt want them !!
Stagecoach aren't involved with school buses in the USA, they are in to coaches i.e. Coach USA / Megabus etc. First Group have a fleet of around 60,000 school buses with Greyhound & Bolt Bus coaches in addition, NX have a school bus fleet of around 20,000 while Go-Ahead group have a 50/50 joint venture with Cook, Illinois which currently only operates 120 school buses. I doubt Arriva will make the impact your expecting / hoping for, after all if there was potential to weaken NXWM dominance in the West Midlands, Stagecoach would have been here years ago, Go-Ahead tried briefly with Go West Midlands but lost a fortune in the process......
Ah but have you also noticed that Selwyn's have since reverted back to taking Levante's after receiving the initial 11 x Elites. The Levante was developed for NX incorporating the front door wheelchair lift from an existing Caetano coach body that was only available in continental Europe at the time; it was that model that the won awards not the Levante. Caetano won the NX business as they were willing to work with NX to develop a coach that could accommodate a wheelchair lift within the front entrance doors. Irizar as you say weren't prepared to re-design the PB body to accommodate this, but as result, have since lost out on supplying hundreds of coach bodies with deliveries each year ever since. I personally would love to have seen NX adopt the PB as its standard bodywork choice, I think its styling is far superior to even the Elite, but it wasn't to be
Quote from: dannygill on October 06, 2012, 01:37:18 PM
Well I certainly wouldnt invest in national express at any share price! And no yellow school buses I know are a big thing for them but stagecoach, first, go ahead all do it too! as ive said I hope arriva will be tue make or break of national express. And I hope that they respond well and the passenger benefits.
And onto levantes for the other comment look at why selywns purchased plaxton elites compared to other coaches. Levantes are cheap and they would of only won an award for its front access lift. Drivers hate the levantes and at £20.000 cheaper than an elites you can see why operators choose cheap! And if you go back to 2006 national express only partrnered up with cataeno because irizar wouldnt do a frojt entry lift on its pb model.....so even nx didnt want them !!
at £280,000 I wouldnt call Levantes cheap.
Quote from: rob@mdc on October 06, 2012, 03:02:50 PM
Quote from: dannygill on October 06, 2012, 01:37:18 PM
Well I certainly wouldnt invest in national express at any share price! And no yellow school buses I know are a big thing for them but stagecoach, first, go ahead all do it too! as ive said I hope arriva will be tue make or break of national express. And I hope that they respond well and the passenger benefits.
And onto levantes for the other comment look at why selywns purchased plaxton elites compared to other coaches. Levantes are cheap and they would of only won an award for its front access lift. Drivers hate the levantes and at £20.000 cheaper than an elites you can see why operators choose cheap! And if you go back to 2006 national express only partrnered up with cataeno because irizar wouldnt do a frojt entry lift on its pb model.....so even nx didnt want them !!
at £280,000 I wouldnt call Levantes cheap.
Rob, how did you find the Levante bodywork whilst you were working at Mike De Courcey's Birmingham Depot?
Ridiculous! Seriously as if Arriva are going to make any impact in the WM, theyve bought a two bit operator with a pants fleet who operate routes that dont even fill a bloody Solo or MPD!
too true its chase mark 2 failure immanent
I don't think I've ever seen one of arriva's "buses" (sheds on wheels) full and when people are waiting at bus stops for the 560 the sheds dont even stop and drive past. Don't they realise that they make money by picking passengers up ?
Arriva also have had/have a bad reputation in Yorkshire over a number of years for service cuts, reliability issues and lack of investment, this may have now improved since investing heavily in new vehicles over the past 12 months
I think we all agree that arriva are really not that great to put it politely and that there is not a chance in hell that they will beat NXWM in the West Midlands. It is easy to forget how big NXWM are but I think dannygill is totally wrong with all his points: arriva are crap, nxwm are good and really profitable.
How many under performing bus companies have arriva bought and turned around compared to NX
Quote from: richie on October 06, 2012, 08:36:28 PM
How many under performing bus companies have arriva bought and turned around compared to NX
Nonesense. They ruined clydeside, ruined colchester, destroyed midland red and midland fox-operate a lot less than in the past. They bought more companies to be fair-NX stuck to a smaller number of higher quality operations. They have also ruined the north east business-constantly making losses-in Durham when you see one of their darts next to a GNE brand then there's just no comparison.
Quote from: Peter123 on October 06, 2012, 08:48:34 PM
Quote from: richie on October 06, 2012, 08:36:28 PM
How many under performing bus companies have arriva bought and turned around compared to NX
Nonesense. They ruined clydeside, ruined colchester, destroyed midland red and midland fox-operate a lot less than in the past. They bought more companies to be fair-NX stuck to a smaller number of higher quality operations. They have also ruined the north east business-constantly making losses-in Durham when you see one of their darts next to a GNE brand then there's just no comparison.
When TWM owned what is now Arriva North East it was one of the most profitable companies in the country!
Quote from: Tony on October 06, 2012, 09:00:40 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on October 06, 2012, 08:48:34 PM
Quote from: richie on October 06, 2012, 08:36:28 PM
How many under performing bus companies have arriva bought and turned around compared to NX
Nonesense. They ruined clydeside, ruined colchester, destroyed midland red and midland fox-operate a lot less than in the past. They bought more companies to be fair-NX stuck to a smaller number of higher quality operations. They have also ruined the north east business-constantly making losses-in Durham when you see one of their darts next to a GNE brand then there's just no comparison.
When TWM owned what is now Arriva North East it was one of the most profitable companies in the country!
Agreed-now its a loss making wreck tho we must say there have been a few depot swaps since then. Now tho they should be more profitable as it is only now they have a complete network of town services in Darlington
Arriva went down hill when they started withdrawing decent full size buses and expecting customers to travel interurban distance services on bloody Darts!! The worst buses ever! They are only designed for shorter local services where passengers only have to put up with all the noise and rattling for short distances. The condition of the BU51 MPDs, and one of the 52 plate and some of the S reg ones ( spd) is frankly appalling they are not fit for long distance routes especially considering the expensive fares!
When TWM owned what is now Arriva North East it was one of the most profitable companies in the country!
[/quote]
It's a pity NX decided to sell off United Auto's, I wish they have also retained Travel London and grown it, Abellio seen to have done a decent job with it.
Do you have any idea how County Bus & Coach fared with profitability? I never understood why they bought Highland Country Buses
Quote from: Peter123 on October 06, 2012, 08:09:33 PM
I think we all agree that arriva are really not that great to put it politely and that there is not a chance in hell that they will beat NXWM in the West Midlands. It is easy to forget how big NXWM are but I think dannygill is totally wrong with all his points: arriva are crap, nxwm are good and really profitable.
Here we go again!!
Why can people not inject a bit of balance into the discussion instead of this ridiculous 'my dad's better than your dad' playground stuff?
I have worked for both companies, and what I would say is that in this region they both have work to do, but let us look at some facts. I really have no interest in how much of an empire each has built up in Europe or America as I am interested in the provision of service in the Midlands. But on that note I would ask that if the NX Group is as thoroughly outstanding at running a business as so many claim, why did it have to dispose of so many well run and seemingly profitable operations in the first place? Their decline as a group over that period of however many years that was has in my opinion cost the west midlands area a lot of progress as NX were just muddling through for quite some time without any money or interest in what they were doing.
Back to now.
NX are now making headway with their vehicle replacement programme, but nowhere near quickly enough. It is not an impressive state of affairs when they have to throw a load of 13 year old buses that have been round the block onto one of their flagship services, just to meet legislative requirements that have been coming for years in terms of the city centre. They are not up to the job and portray a poor image, and if planning and investment had been as it should they wouldn't be there. On top of this a large percentage of the fleet is still in a mish mash of liveries and exceptionally poorly presented. The current refurbishment programme is excellent but how long will it realistically take to get through everything that's outstanding? They should be contracting out and utilising reserve fleet in order to get more vehicles turned round much more quickly as they can't do all of them in house.
Arriva also neglected vehicle replacement for some time, preferring to draft mid life vehicles in from elsewhere which is fine at the time but eventually you end up with everything expiring at the same time. They didn't really begin to address this until 08 and since then have steadily renewed but at the same time expanded, resulting in a net loss in terms of renewal. And they definitely have their work cut out now in updating the fleets at Cannock, Stafford and Midland but I think we will see them do it as they have done extensively elsewhere in the UK recently. You can't deny that Arriva have upped their game in the UK over the last couple of years.
In terms of facilities both companies have invested heavily in their depots and infrastructure.
The biggest difference in my opinion between the two companies is that NX still behaves too much like a municipal or PTE, far too rigid and old fashioned approach to many things such as network, branding, fare structure, commercial offer and lack of real ground breaking innovation, relying too heavily on the local authority and NWM to set the agenda. I don't think you can level that at Arriva in quite the same way as they have to be at the top of their game to survive in the areas they operate in where buses aren't so well used and have innovated well in terms of the commercial offer and methods to sell to and engage customers. But they have made mistakes.
The biggest bug bear of mine with NX is that they have been far too complacent over the years; the Faresaver and a virtual network monopoly has been their guardian but things won't just go on as they have for the last 20 years, they are going to have to get smarter. And whatever your opinion of Arriva, if things gets shaken up then it can only be good for the area's bus offering in general.
Quote from: andy on October 07, 2012, 02:10:20 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on October 06, 2012, 08:09:33 PM
I think we all agree that arriva are really not that great to put it politely and that there is not a chance in hell that they will beat NXWM in the West Midlands. It is easy to forget how big NXWM are but I think dannygill is totally wrong with all his points: arriva are crap, nxwm are good and really profitable.
Here we go again!!
Why can people not inject a bit of balance into the discussion instead of this ridiculous 'my dad's better than your dad' playground stuff?
I have worked for both companies, and what I would say is that in this region they both have work to do, but let us look at some facts. I really have no interest in how much of an empire each has built up in Europe or America as I am interested in the provision of service in the Midlands. But on that note I would ask that if the NX Group is as thoroughly outstanding at running a business as so many claim, why did it have to dispose of so many well run and seemingly profitable operations in the first place? Their decline as a group over that period of however many years that was has in my opinion cost the west midlands area a lot of progress as NX were just muddling through for quite some time without any money or interest in what they were doing.
Back to now.
NX are now making headway with their vehicle replacement programme, but nowhere near quickly enough. It is not an impressive state of affairs when they have to throw a load of 13 year old buses that have been round the block onto one of their flagship services, just to meet legislative requirements that have been coming for years in terms of the city centre. They are not up to the job and portray a poor image, and if planning and investment had been as it should they wouldn't be there. On top of this a large percentage of the fleet is still in a mish mash of liveries and exceptionally poorly presented. The current refurbishment programme is excellent but how long will it realistically take to get through everything that's outstanding? They should be contracting out and utilising reserve fleet in order to get more vehicles turned round much more quickly as they can't do all of them in house.
Arriva also neglected vehicle replacement for some time, preferring to draft mid life vehicles in from elsewhere which is fine at the time but eventually you end up with everything expiring at the same time. They didn't really begin to address this until 08 and since then have steadily renewed but at the same time expanded, resulting in a net loss in terms of renewal. And they definitely have their work cut out now in updating the fleets at Cannock, Stafford and Midland but I think we will see them do it as they have done extensively elsewhere in the UK recently. You can't deny that Arriva have upped their game in the UK over the last couple of years.
In terms of facilities both companies have invested heavily in their depots and infrastructure.
The biggest difference in my opinion between the two companies is that NX still behaves too much like a municipal or PTE, far too rigid and old fashioned approach to many things such as network, branding, fare structure, commercial offer and lack of real ground breaking innovation, relying too heavily on the local authority and NWM to set the agenda. I don't think you can level that at Arriva in quite the same way as they have to be at the top of their game to survive in the areas they operate in where buses aren't so well used and have innovated well in terms of the commercial offer and methods to sell to and engage customers. But they have made mistakes.
The biggest bug bear of mine with NX is that they have been far too complacent over the years; the Faresaver and a virtual network monopoly has been their guardian but things won't just go on as they have for the last 20 years, they are going to have to get smarter. And whatever your opinion of Arriva, if things gets shaken up then it can only be good for the area's bus offering in general.
Interesting thoughts but just to clarify a few things. As far as I am aware, the companies sold in the 1990s such as Westlink were sold as they had outlived their purpose-too small to survive out on a limb and if you get a good price for a company you aren't mad on, why not sell?? I would hardly describe WMT/TWM or NXWM muddling through except maybe when there was the NX debacle, which the WM operation did not cause. Even then, they were part way through a refurbishment programme. Dont forget the huge numbers of buses bought new for many years which is picking up again now. The presidents on the 11 are more than certainly up to the job. Look, every company has a range of buses of different ages and not many can claim that their buses at 13 years old look as good as NXWM's presidents. They are more than definitely up to scratch and I bet passengers would think they are a lot younger than they really are. The comments about NXWM acting like a municipal or PTE are interesting. I would say that it is true to an extent that they have been prepared to work in partnership tho they are not subservient-think of the Tyburn road incident as a good example. Being like a municipal is hardly a bad thing: just getting on with running the buses and not making a fuss or axeing vast swathes of a network. There has been some innovation although even I would admit that it has been a little bit lacking. However, what does a company/what can a company do to carry even more passengers that doesnt involve tonnes of leather and posh buses only to be wrecked.
I think AG all these Presidents at AG has shifted the depot to the top of requiring new devkers over the next few years so I live in hope!
Gemini2' s - Yes please!
Andy,
I'm biased towards NX group as that's where my main interest lies. However, as you have quite rightly said with NXWM in particular, they are from perfect.... external & internal fleet presentation still leaves a lot to be desired, particularly the double deckers delivered new with the light blue TWM moquette, these original interiors are now thread bare & seats are dirty. Also after 5 years of being known as NXWM, they still haven't managed to eradicate the TWM fleet name. As you say NXWM have also gone through periods where new vehicle deliveries particularly double deckers were either light or nonexistent due to diverting them to Travel London as a result of tender wins or during the East Coast fiasco where cash was extremely tight and they were fighting off takeover attempts from CVC/Cosmens & Stagecoach, namely 2006 & 2008-2010. It is the lack of new double deckers delivered during those years that is now resulting in Presidents having to moved out to AG (Outer Circle) & YW (18 & 49) in order to comply with the new City Centre emission rules.
However, on the positive note:
- NXWM are now purchasing large quantities of new buses
- Every bus at repaint is also now being re-trimmed
- The quality of recent paint jobs in the latest shades of red/white seems to be far the superior / the best yet
- They are keeping passengers better informed of changes/disruption via Facebook, twitter etc & their own websites seems to have been improved by whoever is handling their media nowadays
- Some of the latest branding offerings appear to be getting there; I quite like the style of the WN (6) & CV (21)
Unfortunately, with a fleet of approx 1535 vehicles it is going to take time to improve standards across the board due to years of neglect / under investment.
I would like to see NXWM growing the WM business through innovation and setting standards without competition from Arriva or others, especially now profitability is back on track, in doing so they will only make the business even more profitable by investing in/growing it. For the time being at least they are making progress and heading in the right direction.
County Bus & Coach, Westlink, United Auto's were all originally purchased at a time when WMT were expanding prior to stock market floatation. County Bus & Coach & Westlink were acquired to give them a presence on the outskirts of London/experience of LT tendered routes and also used as a spring board to potentially acquire former LT London bus companies being privatised at the time. I believe WMT did bid for one or a number of LT subsidiaries but was either outbid or backed off due the high prices they were fetching. I believe WMT also bid for GM Buses North but again was either outbid by First or backed away due to high purchase prices. I can't remember if Highland Country buses were purchased by WMT or NX or if it was acquired through Scottish Citylink once an NX subsidiary. All of the above were disposed of following the merger of WMT & NX and seen as noncore due to not operating in urban areas, but if United Autos was as profitable as Tony suggested I don't understand why this division wasn't retained as it operated around 500 buses at the time. As for Travel London, that was disposed during the Richard Bowker era following the East Coast fiasco when money was tight/debts were high as it was seen as requiring too much cash in order to be able to grow it in to a significant size player within London.
Of the other UK bus groups Go-Ahead & Stagecoach standards seem to be pretty high across the board, First are the worst on a number of counts and Arriva's are also improving, although like NX they are having to play catch-up with new vehicle investment as too few new buses were order in previous years
I've got no objection to reading/discussing other members opinions on the NX group both good and bad as long as statements are backed up and the facts are correct.
Winston,
Always happy to listen to your opinions on things as I know you know your stuff, certainly more than me. There is no doubt that NX are back on the ball now but as I said and as you agree, that period where they had no money and didn't invest is now catching up with them and I do still feel they could be doing more. They were very lucky somebody didn't come into the area at the time as I believe they were very vulnerable. As you say, the fact that after 5 years you can still see TWM logos about is corporate farce. I just think they need to look outwards to rectify the situation as despite the excellent facilities and staff they clearly have, they simply aren't going to be able to turn it round quickly enough.
I can't agree with Peter that the Presidents are in good condition or look great. I live on the outer circle route and frequently have to catch it over to Perry Barr...I have travelled on 5 different Presidents this week and 4 of them were a disgrace. I would imagine the workshop manager at AG is spitting feathers. He (or she!) has lost good buses that have been well looked after and gained a fleet that is tired, tatty and probably expensive and more time intensive on maintenance. He knows that there isn't much point in spending a lot on them as they won't be there long, so they will probably operate in that condition for a year or more.
I am not biased towards either operator but I get annoyed when people make sweeping remarks without the knowledge or information to justify that opinion and I say what I see out on the road.
I genuinely hope NX do as you say and look far better in another couple of years but the commercial side has just as much work to do as the rest of the business to catch up with a lot of the other large operators, as you say websites and publicity have improved but they still need to be better. Silly little things like the 'last bus out of town' info being completely out of date despite the stops having now been changed for more than 2 months.
Innovation is the way forward for them now particularly in terms of fares, travelcard schemes, local initiatives/incentives and image. Travel to other cities and you will see the sort of thing I'm on about.
Does NX only have one paintshop(Walsall depot)?
How long does it take to paint a vehicle?
Why don't they outsource to other operators to speed things up?
Quote from: Michael on October 07, 2012, 02:54:01 PM
I think AG all these Presidents at AG has shifted the depot to the top of requiring new devkers over the next few years so I live in hope!
Gemini2' s - Yes please!
Yep, cue the next delivery of new double-decks bound for Acocks Green to 'upgrade' the Outer Circle and all the cries from people moaning that Acocks Green always get the 'new buses'. ::)
The outer circle is a flagship route but for many years it had older buses on it and it would be interesting to know by how much passenger numbers changed when the Geminis were put on it, I doubt very much. I caught it to school every day for 7 years with Metros on it (Metro 2039 was a regular up until 2002 - over 23 years old). The Presidents are still young in comparison. Most passengers just want a bus to turn up and as long as it is reasonable to travel on will not mind what bus turns up whether it is new or not. How many passengers do you think actually look at the bus registration anyway??? Many have enough trouble looking at the destination/ number so I dont think it matters to most people. The West Mids is not perfect but there are many places worse off, including those with large scale competition eg Sheffield. A lack of new D/D in the area is not a new problem either, after the 1990 Scanias there were no more D/D until the Optares in 1997. And if Stagecoach/ Go ahead etc owned TWM there still wouldn't be 1500 brand new buses in the fleet. Nat Ex operation has more positives than negatives.
Quote from: Tony on October 06, 2012, 09:00:40 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on October 06, 2012, 08:48:34 PM
Quote from: richie on October 06, 2012, 08:36:28 PM
How many under performing bus companies have arriva bought and turned around compared to NX
Nonesense. They ruined clydeside, ruined colchester, destroyed midland red and midland fox-operate a lot less than in the past. They bought more companies to be fair-NX stuck to a smaller number of higher quality operations. They have also ruined the north east business-constantly making losses-in Durham when you see one of their darts next to a GNE brand then there's just no comparison.
When TWM owned what is now Arriva North East it was one of the most profitable companies in the country!
That may have looked like I was sticking up for arriva but I can assure you I was not!
Quote from: richie on October 07, 2012, 06:53:34 PM
Quote from: Tony on October 06, 2012, 09:00:40 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on October 06, 2012, 08:48:34 PM
Quote from: richie on October 06, 2012, 08:36:28 PM
How many under performing bus companies have arriva bought and turned around compared to NX
Nonesense. They ruined clydeside, ruined colchester, destroyed midland red and midland fox-operate a lot less than in the past. They bought more companies to be fair-NX stuck to a smaller number of higher quality operations. They have also ruined the north east business-constantly making losses-in Durham when you see one of their darts next to a GNE brand then there's just no comparison.
When TWM owned what is now Arriva North East it was one of the most profitable companies in the country!
That may have looked like I was sticking up for arriva but I can assure you I was not!
Haha Richie-sorry I misunderstood and went off on a bit of a rant... :'(
Yes all big companies are playing catchup with renews but where is the investment in Cannock, Stafford etc a few new buses here and there but then shunted to other garages and crap in return Telford gets new buses, Tamworth does so does Oswestry and good full size ones too I went on loan to most of the Arriva Midland area garages and their fleet standard were way better then Cannock just like NXWM Arriva look to help off the government for partnerships this has been mentioned in yours Andy and Winstons posts. I am no expert but when you come in to the West Mids on a crap dart and for example you are running down the Cannock road you may be low floor and your price of fare is identical but when people see a shabby bus and have a nice NXWM bus to get on (even an optare exel is better than a dart) people will get that. I used to think why bloody bother running to Wolverhampton to just have fresh air on board and just terminate at the scotlands and let people get on NXWM felt embarassed coming into the West Mids on the so called buses arriva has.
Yep and now theyre going to introduce a fleet of crappy B6 hairdryers and some ex london 51 plate darts for the Midland routes. Brilliant move sure theyll be dripping with customers
Quote from: Westy on October 07, 2012, 05:05:57 PM
Does NX only have one paintshop(Walsall depot)?
How long does it take to paint a vehicle?
Why don't they outsource to other operators to speed things up?
Yes the only NXWM paint shop is at Walsall, not sure who long it takes to repaint a vehicle, depends on the paint spec / application
The repaint program has increased in speed of late, as PB, WB & YW garages now appear to be undertaking more of the re-panelling & prep work leaving the paintshop to sort the repaint & removing/re-fitting the re-trimmed seats